OT: Would you consider this rape...?

[PHILBERT]

Ok, I got a story for all ya, about a girl who "supposedly" rapes a guy, but not using physical force. I got in a discussion with another girl about this and she does NOT consider it rape, so I will tell the story to you guys and you decide. After all you people here are adults, maybe some of you are lawyers, judges or criminal professors.

Administrators and moderators, please do not move this to another forum, I want it here because this board is one of the most frequently used boards and I want to see everyone's opinion of the story. Thank you.

A high school boy moves to a new town, has no friends, etc. He meets this incredibly good looking girl, who happens to be one of the most popular girls in school, everyone knows her and everyone wants her.

She invites him to a party.

Well he goes to the party, starts chatting with her and thinking "Hey Im gonna get some new friends" and she asks to go for a walk with him, so he agrees and they go walking. While on the walk she says to him "Will you have sex with me" and he looks at her and says "No, Im sorry, while you are very attractive, I am not that kind of a guy."

The girl then says "If you do not have sex with me, I will tell everyone at schol you are a ****sexual" so, even though he did not want to have sex with her, he does. Would you consider that rape?

Edit: Chat filter put in 4 stars on a certain word in the last paragraph, you can figure out which word it was.

[Leonidas]

No, i dont consider it rape and i think he is a ***.

[PHILBERT]

What if you come upon a girl who is under the influence of drugs/alcohol, maybe dropped some date rape pill into a drink, etc and proceed to take advantage of her. Wouldnt that be rape? You did not just BEAT THE CRAP out of her to rape her.

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=rape

The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.

Abusive or improper treatment; violation.

To force (another person) to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse; commit rape on.

It should be rape by the definition, while not PHYSICAL like most rape is, it is still forcing him against his will to commit a sexual act.

[Ryu]

By definition of "rape" then yes it would be. Although lawyers would be all over it.

Girls pressure guys to have sex all the time. It's a big stereotype in thinking men are the only culprits of that.

Ryu

[friday]

hmm your're referring to a definition in a dictionary for what constitutes a rape?
not a good idea

try legal cases or relevant statutes in your jurisdiction if u want to consider whether that story may be regarded as 'rape' under law. u might try legal texts on criminal law too that will give u a better understanding of this criminal offence.

[rubthebuddha]

i'd draw the line at coercion vs. blackmail.

if the girl threatens him in an effort to ruin his reputuation, that is blackmailing him by slander.

however, if it's at a university of southwest arkansas football team party, the threat of being beaten by a bunch of linement is a bit implicit, so to me that's more coercion by threat of physical violence.

however, i could be off on this, and i know what one state defines as rape can be different in another state.

[SevenStar]

I would say no, as he does consentignly have sex with her without being under the influence of any drug. he could have still said no and faced having to clean up his rep after she told everyone he was gay. Heck he coulda even taken advantage of that by getting good looking girls to attempt to make him straight :) with the date rape drug, the victim is under the influence, so either 1. they are passed out or 2. they are making a decision under the influence of a drug.

[Xebsball]

Yeah its a rape...

but personally i think i could live with a rape like that over me.

[SevenStar]

I would say blackmail. technically he wasn't forced...he was presented with two choices and made a conscious decision.

[TaoBoy]

I agree with Sevenstar on this one.

I'm taking a common sense stand on this one - obviously nothing to do with the law - I think he had a choice - in my mind rape equals no choice.

[PHILBERT]

So if a guy has a gun to a woman's head and is trying to engage in sexual acts with her, if she resists her brains will be splattered everywhere. So she makes a conscious decision to engage in sex.

So if a woman says the ****sexual threat to him wanting to engage in sexual acts with him, if he resists his reputation will be ruined. So he makes a conscious decision to engage in sex.

While the first one is death and the second is not, the first is still given a decision as is the second. In both cases it results in the person's life changed forever.

[friday]

i just want to push some boundaries, be the devils advocate etc
interesting discussion here.

ok in the situation when someone is killed and the defendant raises the defence that he killed in selfdefence. you could always say he had a choice - to kill or be killed ;)
so when do you draw the line in respect of what circumstances are such that this choice doesn't really exist?

in such a defence the court applies principles of reasonable response/force. So if someone attacks u with a knife etc and u kill him in self defence this might be reasonable (depends on a myriad of factors and i'm certaintly not an expert)

so in this story of alleged 'rape' which on first thought has some similiarities to crimes committed under duress (except in the story you are the victim, and in the other u might have been involved in carrying out the crime) what kind of coersion, or threats etc is sufficient to it to constitute a rape?

lets say if she threatened him, telling him if he didn't sleep with her she would get her (male friends?) to kick the crap out of him :)
and harass him?

there has been a case b4 where a man was apparently tied up to a chair by two other guys to be then raped by a woman.

:) anyway these are all just thoughts and issues i'm trying to raise
give me a chance to review some criminal law material and i'll get back to u on this (using Australian Law of course)

[SevenStar]

no it doesn't. a ruined rep is temporary. It will change either by 1. him amending it, 2. time or 3. he relocates.

death is permanent. Also, it's likely that he will kill her regardless in that situation...it's happened too many times.

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by PHILBERT
So if a guy has a gun to a woman's head and is trying to engage in sexual acts with her, if she resists her brains will be splattered everywhere. So she makes a conscious decision to engage in sex.

So if a woman says the ****sexual threat to him wanting to engage in sexual acts with him, if he resists his reputation will be ruined. So he makes a conscious decision to engage in sex.

While the first one is death and the second is not, the first is still given a decision as is the second. In both cases it results in the person's life changed forever.

Fair point Philbert.
And this is just my opinion on a tough topic.
I'd take the slandered reputation rather than submit to her demands. That's a choice. A gun to the head doesn't leave much room for a choice.

In the immortal words of Forrest Gump, "and that's all I have to say about that."

[SevenStar]

since you brought up the gun thing, many women are presented with choices like that when they are raped. it's rape because the intent is violent. There is nothing inherently dangerous about someone telling people you are gay. I know 5 women that have been raped, and they all were presented with a series of choices:

1. shut up and take it...if you don't scream I won't kill you.
2. if you tell anyone, I will kill you and/or your family.

the woman has choices there - shut up and be raped, or scream, still get raped and then die.

afterwards, she can either tell, which may get herself or loved ones injured, or she can remain silent and not say anything.

The intent behind those choices is VERY different from "have sex with me or I tell people you are gay" even though such a decision as you pointed out with your gun example would be conscious, the alternative is death, not a ruined rep.

[Xebsball]

Gentlemen, please

What we should consider here is the damage this person is to take in case this one has or not sexual intercourse.
What i ask is where and how we draw the line of damage intensity... The complete lost of reputation may be death for someone who is psycologicly unprepeared for that and so on.

[SevenStar]

if the ruining of a rep is equivalent to death for someone, then that person has SERIOUS issues other than that girl which need to be dealt with.

[SevenStar]

unless you're in office.....but then it's blackmail and slander.

[PHILBERT]

Well what if he does not have sex with her, she turns around and screams ****sexual. Then, 6 days later, 6 weeks, a year, or even 3 hours after she screams it, a guy who is ****phobic kills him because the man with the phobia is afraid of ****sexual people.

Or...

Maybe the man who was sexually assaulted is terrified of being a ****sexual and is terrified that people will think he is one.

If you fear being called Larry, you are truely afraid of this and think it will ruin your life, and I say have sex with me or I'll tell everyone your middle name is Larry, it would scare the hell out of you. We all know that there is nothing wrong with being Larry but I used your fear as a way to force you into sex.

[Xebsball]

definately 7

btw, did you like my use of fancy words such as gentlemen and please on my post. i thought i should cos this is a law thread and all.

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by Xebsball
definately 7

btw, did you like my use of fancy words such as gentlemen and please on my post. i thought i should cos this is a law thread and all.

I noticed it and I was like "Ow my head hurts..."

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by PHILBERT


I noticed it and I was like "Ow my head hurts..."

:D :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by PHILBERT
Well what if he does not have sex with her, she turns around and screams ****sexual. Then, 6 days later, 6 weeks, a year, or even 3 hours after she screams it, a guy who is ****phobic kills him because the man with the phobia is afraid of ****sexual people.

Or...

Maybe the man who was sexually assaulted is terrified of being a ****sexual and is terrified that people will think he is one.

If you fear being called Larry, you are truely afraid of this and think it will ruin your life, and I say have sex with me or I'll tell everyone your middle name is Larry, it would scare the hell out of you. We all know that there is nothing wrong with being Larry but I used your fear as a way to force you into sex.

That's different because the ****phobic guy wasn't there. If she said "have sex with me, or I will tell ****phobic bob here that you are gay and he will kill you" then it would have been rape. Since that decision was not part of the original decision, it's not rape - he was killed as a result of his decision afterwards.

[SevenStar]

this thread has me looking up laws now. in my state, even though the age of consent is 18, it's not illegal for 13 - 17 year olds to consent as long as the person they are consenting to is not more than 4 years older than them.

Also, rape against a spouse is only considered rape if the person is armed or if the person causes bodily harm to his/her spouse

[anton]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Also, rape against a spouse is only considered rape if the person is armed of if the person causes bodily harm to his/her spouse

That really sucks. It sounds like the remainder of the old laws that said there could be no rape within marriage. In most Australian jurisdictions there are no real distinctions drawn between rape in marriage and rape outside marriage.

[SevenStar]

yeah, it does suck. I've heard people say they need to amend our rape laws. After seeing that, I now know why...

[anton]

Also in Aussie law in cases where there was some delay between the alleged act and the complaint, the judge is required to tell the jury that there may be good reasons why a genuine rape victim might not report the rape to police straight away. And by statute the judge cannot suggest in any way that the law regards complainants in sexual cases as an unreliable class of witness.


Also consent is not such a clear-cut thing - in cases categorized under "Mistake" for example consent is vitiated. For example consider the case where a person who does not know anything about the birds and te bees consents to sex because s/he is decieved into thinking that it is a medical procedure (which has happened on several occasions) - in this case the victim is mistaken as to the sexual nature of the act.
Or the case where a burgler sneaks into a house, finds a sleeping woman and has sex with her - she consents because it's dark and thinks that the man is her husband.
Or if a person convinces a woman who is unfamiliar with local laws, that they are married and she consents because of this (mistaken) belief.

[Leonidas]

That kid is pathetic. Calling rape? He should go see some real rape victims who were held down by an attacker outweighting them a hundred pounds with the threat of being stabbed, shot strangled, beaten to death or many other ways to horribly die and ask them if they had the choice whether they would of taken a ruined reputation or not. Fu(king loser. If he really didn't want to sleep with the girl (which i can't see why he wouldn't) he should of had the balls to walk out of the room regardless of what she threatened to do. If it really came down to it and things got out of hand he could of taken her to court for slander or went to the principal to complain.

I think he just had performance anxiety or maybe he really is gay. You never know, he prolly enjoyed it, no one was in that room with them. . I doubt he had the look of horror and pain and hopelessness, 'normal' rape victims go through either. What do you think his reputation is gonna be like now for calling rape (a very serious crime) on a girl becuz she threatened him with the 'G' word. I dont think he tried hard enough not to have sex with her..............




(Haha, he was gonna get called a *** anyway for turning down the hottest girl in school. She didn't even have to put in any effort.)

[Budokan]

It doesn't begin as rape, it begins as sexual harrassment. But if the guy is having sex against his will, then yes, that's rape.

Funny how some women view this as a double standard....

[Leonidas]

The point is that he didn't get forced to do anything. He had a choice. I've gotten threatened plenty of times. Didn't have anything to do with sex but usually the threat of violence. Its usually "I'm gonna kick your ass if you don't do this or that". I've take a gamble and sometimes i get my ass kicked but its the choice that i made. He obviously didn't have the guts to take that risk, stick to his beliefs and deal with the consequences later if any (she might of been bluffing in the first place).

[Internal Boxer]

Philbert you could start a fight in an empty room :D

For me its a question of how sensitive a person is, if they are of the dispostion that when that lad is confronted with a situation like that and feels he has been violated or raped or even pushed into having s.ex then he will not get very far in life, and is likely to have an unrecoverable breakdown in more stressful situations, since he could not even cope that minor situation how can he deal with any thing even remotely serious:- the answer is he will not be able.

I am sure all of us have had far worse things happen to us than this, I know I have and you have to take it on the chin, life is tough, get used to it.

To compare that incident with the rape under threat of death, is like comparing stubbing your toe to having your leg cut off:- they aint in the same league, hell not even the same ball park, They are not even the same game for fu.cks sake!!

If blokes start adopting the Political Correctness of certain women that do exhibit double standards then we will just be as bad as they are.

[Hai_To]

How about if we turn the question around. What if the guy had threatened to ruin the girls reputation by telling everyone that she was a lesbian or some such thing. He is still forcing her to have sex. Is that rape? I think a lot of you are missing the point that consent under duress is not really consent.

[Leonidas]

I admit that girls have it tougher than guys in a situation like that. They have to "put out" or they most likely wont have any friends the next day. They also have the double standard of them enjoying sex and being called $!uts and or wh0res :( but its the same situation. Either stand up for what you believe now or comply, let them use you, but dont go whining about it later on and certainly dont go pressing charges of a serious nature when its not needed. :mad:

I doubt anyone in that town believes he got raped by a girl he prolly outweights by 50 pounds but lets look at the dozens of cases of men getting wrongfully accused of rape, some even going to prison for long periods of time, finally being released after the 'victim' admits she lied. I guess my definfition of the word is different but thats not something you go around accusing another person of because you feel "dirty" and regret what you did. :mad: . Yea she was wrong for trying to -blackmail- him, which is in fact what she -really- tried to do. You may even say he was -sexually harrassed- but its definitely not on par with what he claims.

[The Willow Sword]

Not at all. Not even in the eyes of the law is this rape. he was not forced and he was not overpowered or dominated in anyway.
hahah the little wussy should have plugged her "as per her invitation" and then told everyone she was a lousy lay and doesnt take it all in. he would then command the respect of the
other highschool boys and would therefore make lots of friends.
its highschool waddaya gonna do?

MRTWS

[Hai_To]

Willow Sword,

In your opinion, do you think a man could ever be raped? Excluding factors such as drugs or alcohol, could a woman rape a man in full command of his faculties?

[The Willow Sword]

But in cases where the woman rapes the man,,it is usually an adult woman and a young man(as in a child),,and then it becomes a child molestation case.

in the case of adult women and adult men,,its hard to say,,unless they guy is a complete priest or monk,,,i dont think that any women would be able to take advantage of a man in the way that men take advantage of women.

now when it comes to physical abuse and domestic violence,,women can be just as if not more violent than men.

MRTWS

[Hai_To]

Fair enough.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Man, I don't know what the hell's wrong with people...

OF COURSE IT'S NOT A **** RAPE..."if you don't have sex with me, I'll tell everyone you're gay"...WOW, WHAT A THREAT!!! I'M SO SCARED!!!!!!!!

I hope when I'm walking in the street nobody will come and say "gimme your wallet or I tell everyone you're gay"...no please, no, here's all my money...

PFFFFFFFFFFFF
Had I been the guy I'd have said "sure bi@tch, go around and make me a crappy rep...it won't last, and one day soon it will come back around to you...be my guest, darling" (huuuh for real, I would have done her right away, but let's pretend).

Anyway, on a more serious note, consent under pressure is not really consent indeed...BUT it's time to grow up...what the hell is a reputation? Are you so insecure that your rep is that important to you? If you give sex (whatever your gender) following such lame threats you should grow up and grow mature. If there's violence, there's a rape, that's clear. If there's the threat of a weapon, that's a rape, that's clear.
If it's just threats, legally it's much tougher, and lawyers can pretty much screw you around on minor details.
This whole issue is laughable, because of the poor nature of the threats involved. It would have been ethically and legally very much harder if the threats were like "I'll kill your family, slowly, one member at a time", and if time revealed indeed that the girl was carrying on noxious doings.
But if it's just a matter of telling people the guy's gay, COME ON...

[Budokan]

Turn the argument around. A guy tells a girl if she doesn't have sex with him he'll spread viscious lies around about her reputation. She does, but it's only because she feels pressured and harrassed into doing so, but at no time is it "consensual" in her eyes.

You think that guy wouldn't get into serious trouble when the woman finally decides to spill the beans about his sexual harrassment behavior?

If not, then you're living in f*cking La-La Land.

[Hai_To]

I agree Budokan. What if we bring it out into the business world. What if a woman's male boss harassed her into having sex with him, otherwise she wouldn't get that promotion or would be fired. Most likely he would be prosecuted for sexual harassment and rape. Granted she could have said "no" and lived with the consequences. But, what if she was a single mom with two children to feed and she simply couldn't afford the consequences.

Now, if the roles were reversed, would the woman be prosecuted the same way as the man? Most likely not. In our society (or the world at large for that matter) men don't like to admit to being harassed. They are considered weak or a "wussy" or "gutless" or "pathetic" to quote some of the posters. Hence the double standard.

[ewallace]

He just made the wrong decision. If she was really hot, and demanded that he have sex with her, he should have said something like "fine, I'll have sex with you, but you must get three of your hottest friends to participate. Otherwise no deal and I will tell everybody that you stuff your bra and duct tape your buttcheeks together".

[txwingchun]

He should've just stuck his cock in her ass

[Water Dragon]

txwingchun is correct

And don't forget to Donkey Punch :D

[The Willow Sword]

:rolleyes:

[wushu chik]

Hmm, I don't think it was rape. I think everyone that said blackmail is correct. I really don't see why this guy was afraid of being called gay. He would have had not just ONE of the hottest chicks in school up on him, but probably ALL of the hottest girls up on him. Something about the "gay" men that get all the chicks! They're so easy to talk to, and are great shopping partners!!

Seriously though, it's pretty lame, but it's not rape. And, I don't agree....there have been cases where grown men have been raped by grown women.......child molestation and rape are 2 completely different things TWS!!

~Wen~

[The Willow Sword]

in the eyes of the law they are different but in the eyes of reality they are exactly the same thing.. rape and child molestation are linked.
and you know it would be great if i was subdued by a women such as yourself ,wendy ,and totally dominated,,,just no tickling please.:D :p


MRTWS

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by Leonidas
That kid is pathetic. Calling rape?

Um genius, he might of originally filed a civil suit based off BLACKMAIL and SEXUAL HARASSMENT, the judge looked at the story and said "This is rape" and brought charges. Just because the girl was charged with rape (which was the outcome of the story) does not mean the boy realized he was raped. He might of just thought it was blackmail.

Kind of like statutory rape, if the guy is 21 and the girl is 15, her parents find out, even if the girl says she said yes, and the law finds out, the guy can be arrested. The man in the story I originally posted might of just said it to his parents and gotten a lawyer to do a civil suit for blackmail, slander, etc and then the girl ends of being charged for rape. You just *assume* he screamed out rape? I never said that.

[ewallace]

How many times has a really hot chick come up to you and demanded sex? Hell you gotta take advantage of that ****. He probably was gay.

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by wushu chik
Hmm, I don't think it was rape. I think everyone that said blackmail is correct. I really don't see why this guy was afraid of being called gay. He would have had not just ONE of the hottest chicks in school up on him, but probably ALL of the hottest girls up on him. Something about the "gay" men that get all the chicks! They're so easy to talk to, and are great shopping partners!!

Seriously though, it's pretty lame, but it's not rape. And, I don't agree....there have been cases where grown men have been raped by grown women.......child molestation and rape are 2 completely different things TWS!!

~Wen~

Wendy, I knew a guy at my old high school who was gay and open about it. Girls hated him, could not stand the site of him, his voice, blah blah blah and he had about 2 friends, who happened to be teachers. The wrestling and soccer teams said if he ever walked into the locker room when they were changing, they'd kick the **** out of him.

Lets reverse the story. Its a girl who just moved to the new town, she meets the hot stud, captain of the football and wrestling team, body of a Greek God, etc. He invites her to a party, they go for the walk, he says have sex with me or I will tell everyone you are a lesbian, she has sex. Would that be considered rape?

Historical court decision, such a thing DID happen, and not only was he charged with rape, he was found guilty. Only his threat wasn't to call her a lesbian.

It was to not be her friend.

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by PHILBERT

Um genius, he might of originally filed a civil suit based off BLACKMAIL and SEXUAL HARASSMENT, the judge looked at the story and said "This is rape" and brought charges. Just because the girl was charged with rape (which was the outcome of the story) does not mean the boy realized he was raped. He might of just thought it was blackmail.
.

Well the title of your thread is would you consider this rape? So excuse me for assuming that, this in in fact what he pressed charges for. "He MIGHT of originally filed a civil suit" doesn't much help to answer the question of whether he did or not since your guessing too. If it upsets you that much maybe you should find these things out before you post. It makes no difference now. The POINT is still that he wasn't raped

[anton]

Remember rape does not necessarily involve physical force. As long as there is no consent it can be rape. What if the threat was to kill his family? what if the threat was to kill his pet budgie that he loved dearly, would that be rape? Clearly coercion in the form of a threat can replace physical force in many circumstances. The subsections of the Aussie Crimes Act effectively describes the rape of a male as follows (my italics):

Crimes Act 1958, s.38

....

(3) A person (the offender) also commits rape if he or she compels a male person---
(a) to sexually penetrate the offender or another person with his *****, irrespective of whether the person being sexually penetrated consents to the act; or
(b) who has sexually penetrated the offender or another person with his *****, not to withdrawhis ***** from the offender or that other person, irrespective of whether the person who has been sexually penetrated consents to the act.

(4) For the purposes of sub-section (3), a person compels a male person (the victim) to engage in a sexual act if the person compels the victim (by force or otherwise) to engage in that act---
(a)without the victim's consent; and
(b) while being aware that the victim is not consenting or might not be consenting.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm going with "sad attempt at Black mail"

He should have bangged her silly and then told everyone she was a "Lezzy" (or a Lazy Lezzy, HA!! sorry, couldn't help myself:D) just for threatening him like that.