Basic Training

[Budokan]

Has anyone checked this program out on the History Channel? It follows a group of men and women in Army Boot Camp. It's been running about 6 weeks now. Last night was a show dedicated to "bayonet training" and it had some applicable bo-like moves. Not surprising, I guess.

I suppose my biggest surprise is how non-stressful this boot camp training appears. (I know, what's stressful for one may not be for another -- but this looks like a hard summer camp and not a bust a$$ training regimen to whip men into soldiers) It comes across as all very PC. I think someone mentioned the same thing on another thread re: how non-stressful it all appears.

Are the DIs simply playing to the cameras, along with the recruits? What do you guys think...?

[rogue]

I thought the same thing Budokan.

[Leto]

Basic Training is more 'PC' nowadays. They still bust your a$$, but the instructors aren't allowed to abuse the trainees like they used to. They can't hit them, and they must be very careful not to utter anything that could be construed as racist, sexist, or otherwise prejudiced. I would imagine they are also looking good for the camera. People thinking about the military might be scared off by examples like we see in 'Full Metal Jacket' or 'An Officer and a Gentleman'. A reality TV series that shows that it really isn't all that bad might help people who are considering the military but are undecided still.
It is still mentally stressful, whatever it looks like on TV. Remember that for 6 weeks, or 10 weeks, or however long training is in whatever branch...for most of those young men and women it is the first time away from home for an extended amount of time, and not only that but you are not allowed to do whatever you feel like. Every minute of every day (almost) is regulated, and you are watched over, given orders, yelled at, etc. That sort of discipline and stress is something most have never been exposed to before. Even in the Air Force, at least a couple trainees from each flight I knew of 'cracked' sometime during the fist week, and tried to run off, tried to kill themselves, or just refused to do it anymore, and demanded 'out'. After the first week or two, when the routines had become 'routine', it was much easier.

In 'peace-time' (if you can really call it that), I guess training slips a little. America hasn't been engaged in a major war since Vietnam. There aren't even a lot of instructors still around who have any sort of real combat experience. Modern weapons, especially in the Army, have become highly automated, computerized. Physical combat isn't stressed as much as mental discipline, ability to take orders without question, follow instructions to the letter, trust your superiors, but still be mentally active. It is a new type of soldier. Very rarely do we expect to have to meet enemies face to face in infantry engagements, however accurate that assessment is. Look at the military engagements of the past ten years. Almost exclusively air power was used. The army was sent in later to occupy areas to 'keep peace', or to protect refugees. Except for special forces units, like those used in Afghanistan, who are trained for such things...we don't use man-power until the risk is reduced as much as possible.

[Budokan]

"There aren't even a lot of instructors still around who have any sort of real combat experience." --Leto

This was another problem -- a BIG one -- I have with watching the series. There are often DIs (women [or womon if you prefer]) who are instructing the trainees on battle tactics, strategies, etc. Uh, excuse me, but when did these women DIs get any practical hand to hand up in your face kill the enemy battlefield experience to be dishing out advice to recruits? Speaking for myself, I tend to pay a lot more attention, and have a lot more respect, for someone who has actually experienced combat and trying to teach me what they know, rather than someone who has not.

Now maybe that's just me, but I believe it's another sign that PC elements have sapped the inherent strength of the military. I also don't care for the fact that standards are lowered for women -- something the program only glossed over and barely mentioned.

The only time I saw a recruit really get dressed down was during an inspection. The recruit, a woman, cried. That was must see TV. Commercials touting the program keep calling it "Week 9 of H*ll" or "Week 10 of H*ll" or whatever....Jeez, hardly. However, I know this is the first time many of these young men and women are away from home. That in itself is a good thing: They don't have mommy and daddy's tit to suck on for comfort....

Having said all that, I'll continue to watch it because it is good television and it does give an insight, however sanitized (Please, God, don't tell me Army training really is like this) for public consumption on television.

By the by, there was a similar program about Marine training and SEAL training also on the History Channel earlier. These programs gave a better view of just how tough those regimens were and didn't soft soap anything.

And I just can't help but remember what Marine DI Ermey once said, "If I can get my hands on you, you'll remember a lesson a lot better than if I talk about it all day long."

I don't know about you guys, but I'm more than ready for PC to die the miserable death it deserves. Frankly, I'm a little tired of seeing it in dojos and kwoons, too....

[SaMantis]

Sorry to tell you hard-core types, but what I've seen of the show is very much the basic training experience. Everything really is that PC, although the drill sergeants on the show are on their best behavior for the cameras.

Basic training isn't the insane beat-the-****-out-of-em experience it was in WWII & Vietnam because the army doesn't have to move a bunch of draftees from their home life to a front line in 6 to 12 weeks. It's also a volunteer army, so most people wouldn't take that level of abuse. So the military's gotten a little bit smarter about how they train people.

Basic just creates a template that soldiers can build on. No matter what field they go into after basic, every aspect of their training will come into play at one time or another. If a soldier wants something more physically demanding, there's plenty of stuff to do after basic that will kick his ass. Just ask a Ranger or an airborne soldier.

P.S. - If any of those female drill sergeants came from the MPs, they have a full capability to kick your ass. In 1990 a female MP captain led a charge into a building in Panama that took out a squad of Noriega's troops and captured 2 of them personally. And I saw quite a few female soldiers during the Gulf War who had to regulate on locals who thought it was OK to grab at their chests. So don't knock 'em till you've seen 'em in action.

[zen_celt]

My recruiters etc. have told me to watch that show because it does show the way BCT(Basic Combat Training) really is. Granted that the DIs are being good for the cameras and it is in Jackson(I think) where it is a coed training facility and, therefore, easier it is a lot like that. From what I've heard, the physical training is actually not that difficult if you're not a slob when you go in. It's pretty much all mental. The way it was told to me was, the DIs job is to put you under as much stress as possible to see how you handle it. For many, the fact that they are in a new environment without a security blanket or Mommy and Daddy is a lot of stress in itself(kind of like college with guns and angry people in green). Also, as SAmantis said, it's just to create a template. BCT is to teach you the basics of the Army(supposedly most of which you don't use). The thing to keep in mind is that EVERYONE goes through BCT. From the infantryman to the Administration bureaucrat puke. A lot of these people will never see combat, and if they do, it will be from behind a desk, probably on TV. Rather than waste time teaching these people how to kill, the Army whould rather get them to their job training and pay them to shuffle paper. The real combat training is for the soldiers who go to Infantry, MP, Ranger etc. school.
At least that's my unseasoned take on it. I'll let you know in a few months.
-ZC

[JOHNNY]

This show really surprised me. I could not even talk or look at my drill instructors nor did we train with woman. Not like I would not like to;) . I do not know but for those 13 weeks that I there it was stressful and the instructors never spoke to me other than yelling at me and when we needed medical help or to use the head. They did not associate with us only when training or showing us but we could never speak to them as equals. And every Marine goes through 13 weeks plus 2 weeks of marine combat training. Grunts go for School of Infantry for another month. If there boot is like that it is pretty lame.
johnny
semper fidelis

[red5angel]

I havent been watching it but here are your main problems:

1.)ARMY Boot Camp

2.) a Kinder, Gentler Army

3.) ARMY Boot camp


Also, the DI's are probably playing "nice" for the cameras. I went in in 91 and although they were well down the path of Kinder and Gentler, there were still alot of things going on behind closed doors that werent supposed to according to the latest pc decotrine.

I also remember enjoying going to Medbay because there were women there.......otherwise I was staring at male marine mugs the whole time.

Hehe, johnny, if My instructors were close enough for me to look them in the eyes there was usually more then one and I was getting a face full of spit!

[JOHNNY]

SPIT=i made a mistake and they are in my face.:D
Some of my drill instructors need a tic tac.
I hated that the most and sometimes they would push us too. ****es me off.
Johnny:D

[tnwingtsun]

Having gone through BOTH Army and Marine Basic in the early 80's I must say that TV show made me want to PUKE!!!

1.I understand that Ft.Jackson is where the REMFs go for basic
but that does not excuse the touchy-feely BS you see on that program or the way the DI's handle their recruts.

2.The only NCO's I saw worth a $hit were the RANGER tabbed
Sgt and the Sgt Maj.

It was a different breed of NCO's I had in Army(and Marine)
basic,90% of the Army DI's I had were Nam Vets and they didn't play the PC crap,there was none,they cussed and did kick your arse if you had it coming(and most of us did).

One thing is for sure I got alot more out of my Army Infantry and Ranger training than I ever did at MCT in Camp Lajeune.

I went into the Marines for $hits and giggles and spent more time than anyone in my platoon on the quarter-deck for screaming AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY!!

I met some good bros for life in both services and altough Ft.Benning is a world away from Ft.Jackson I think that the crisis
we as Americans are in now ought to shake off for good the PC
infection thats downridden our Military that almost destroyed
us during the Clinton/Gore years,I saw many great NCO's and officers leave during that period.

I saw the NCO and Officer corps,a wounded instutition rebuilding itself in the eightys only to be wounded again in the 90's because of BS policys.

Also what you're seeing is the youth of a society that is in many ways disintegrating and unless there a change in this nation,this problem is going to manifest itself in larger proportion as we go along.
We can't afford that.

I think that Army basic should seperate the men from the women
and train along the lines of Marine Recruit training where no matter what your MOS is you have the tools when needed,and belive me through history cooks and Admin pukes have been overun only to die because of poor training.

But the Army's need for "Support Personel" that can't hack the rigors of hardcore training will continue the poor basic training
REMF's recive in places like Ft.Jackson.

The show still makes me Puke!!!!

[OneStrike]

do you guys with military experience think that this will have a bad effect on america's military performance?

maybe standards are a bit slacker also because military conflicts rely more on techno rather than dirty knock down drag out fighting??? any thoughts????

[JOHNNY]

I would hope your army infrantry school would teach you more. MCT which is only two weeks is what non infantry guys go through. The grunts go through SOI. And our Recon which is our special forces guys go through many other schools along with recon school. School of Infantry is alot harder and rigourous than mct and goes for a 6weeks plus. there humps are all long 10+ miles. So army infantry doesnt compare to mct.:rolleyes: but soi and recon school would. i have spoken to both and they say recon school is hard. Also army guys unless infantry only go to 8weeks of boot and have nothing like mct after unless you are a grunt. We all do 13weeks plus mct, whether you are a cook or admin. And remember I can go to any other service without doing their boot but no one can come to the Marines, special force or not and not do our boot:D Its all good though we are all fighting the same cause. We just look better doing it.
Johnny
semper fidelis
ps: I am glad you decided to come over to our side when you were in.
:D

[tnwingtsun]

"ps: I am glad you decided to come over to our side when you were in."

Sorry Johnny,MCT was a joke(but better than anything the Non Benning Army has to offer in basic),SOI(Lajeune) was boring at the time,I should had gone Recon.


When I got to PI, I was aready Jump(Static and HALO), Ranger and Pathfinder qualified,I was playing with Force Recon(as their OPFORE) long before PI.
My Marine MOS took me into other fields I rather not discuss,funny thing they put me through Army schools to be qualified,lol.
After I finished giving blood to the Corps
I went back to the Army where I belonged,Uncle Chesty just wouldn't let me jump enough(although I had four Marines on my stick my first- fifth jump at Benning).

I did it as a bet to my ole man who is a retired Gunny who lives in
Beuford,he was a DI in 66,Walking Dead in Nam.

Years have passed since and I should had stayed in,I would have retired two years ago if I would had survived.

Semper Fi


OneStrike

"do you guys with military experience think that this will have a bad effect on america's military performance"

What??
On the Army's motivation??
Fu(ken-a right!!!
On perfomance?? We'll have to see.
On Special ops units??
Hell no!!
Both sevices have their trash that need to be hauled but like I said that reflects on the trash they let in and what they let get away with.
I spent some time in Charlie India Delta taking out trash and from what my old sources tell me there is some real bone headed $hit going on now and its on the rise.
No time for that now,last time I heard we were at WAR!!


"maybe standards are a bit slacker also because military conflicts rely more on techno rather than dirty knock down drag out fighting??? any thoughts????"

No,No,No...........

Techno has little to do with it,rewind to Cliton/Gore.

Also there are many Rep. and Dems that sink more money into high tech systems when we need to focus on rebuilding the
grunt on the grounds training,sure,many of these high tech systems are great tools for the snake eaters but cha got to have enough snake eaters in the first place!!!

When the Iraqie Division Commander surrendered to his American counterpart he told him that when the Air war came
he lost a low % of his force,when the ground phase started his command ceased to be even with command and control wiped out he was able to put some what of a fight but was no match for the Combined Arms of a much more highly motivated and better trained force,compaired to thoses days we need work.

[OneStrike]

excellent post tnwingtsun.

[JOHNNY]

Did you go to soi? How would you know it is boring? Like I said MCT is for non-grunts. No army guy that is not a grunt does more than a 8 week basic and no combat training correct?? Yes we do have to go to your schools to jump and some other trainings. We get what the Navy wants to give us as far money goes. We get the Army's hand downs as you know. They have wanted to get rid of us for years but we have proven to be a solemn fighting force that gets the job done. Hey army has money but they will never have our mentality. I guess that is why we win wars.:D But if its jumping you want to da Army is the way to go. I guess if you like the long hair and stress cards army basic is the way to go.
Johnny:D

[African Tiger]

Army sucks.
Marines are cool.
End of discussion. :D

BTW, we never got "weekends off" in boot camp, as depicted in such wonderful Army movie fare as "Stripes."

And yes we had Gomer Pyle, USMC. :rolleyes: But I bet that Gomer would have kicked the living s hit out of a lot of people.

Semper Gumby - always flexible...

[tnwingtsun]

"Did you go to soi?"

Yes I did and found it to be lacking and a let down because of my other training.
But by the same token I am and ALWAYS be in the brotherhood
which gave me an edge(I consider myself a MMA in the sence of
being both Marine and Army.)
I see faughts in both sevices,but we will survive!!

If you want to be high speed in the Army you have to go Spec Ops.(Ranger/SF/Delta).
Some Infantry/Airborne and Air Moblie units smoke with the best of them(when I was in).

These days alot, sans 18th ABN.Corp/2ID (NOT ALL) of your Army line units need to get there heads out of there arses.
Pound for pound Marine units out class non tip of the spear Army units but thats the nature of the beast,like I said before,I've smoked my bros before I was born again,my point is that there is ALOT of work that needs to be done right Fu(king NOW
with both sevices.
I went from 11/B-95/B-0311 back to CID,my main Beo-ch
is whats happing to the kids coming in fu(king up when its time to TCB!!!!!!!!

If you're still in the fold my advice is to rip out the ones that
will get you killed before it happens,its not the Corps or the Army,its the arseholes that run the show!!

God Bless Col. "Charging Charlie" Beckwith

And others too many to name!

[tnwingtsun]

"And yes we had Gomer Pyle, USMC. But I bet that Gomer would have kicked the living s hit out of a lot of people."


I belive it was Rock Hudson that pulled the living $hit out of Gomer
:D

Semper Fi

[guohuen]

Just for old times sake.

"I love the fekking army and the army loves fekking me."

[JOHNNY]

So you went to mct or soi?? I am confused?? Either way its all good we are all fighting the same battle. The army does have money that I wish we had. We are the poorest of all the military maybe thats why we have the pride as you should know.
johnny:D

[tnwingtsun]

Sorry Bro,just ranting and blowing off some steam about

some $hit I've seen that don't need to be going on right now.

I'm doing what I can at this moment,it sucks for me because

I'm not where I used to be,just keep you eyes open.