Wing Chun chi sao tournament Canton Ohio Oct. 5th

[red5angel]

Hi everyone now is your chance to try your chi sao in a fun and challenging environment. The tournament will be held in Canton Ohio, by the wutang martial arts school. We hope to see lots of chi sao people there. for more info call 330-327-5699

[reneritchie]

How does a Chi Sao tournament work? Would it be similar to a focus pad tournament for Muay Thai?

I see two alternatives:

--

"Contestant (a) sure is learning a lot in that exchange, Jim."

"Well, sure, Bill, but that's only because contestant (b) is doing a much better job at productive partnering..."

"True, and even though (a) is getting in some disconnected, powerless taps by changing tempo and jumping around, (b) is really maintaining his posture and keeping those elbows in..."

OR

Bas: "Jesus Christ, whatta liver shot!"

Quadros: "I'm liking this, Bas. We're finally getting to see the true art!"

Goldberg: "This sucks. Look how small and spindly their arms are. Why aren't they just wailing on each other? I mean their standing all stuck together there... I wish Bob Sapp was here!"

RR

[burnsypoo]

"Don't look now, but here comes Joe San, executing his patented '50 shots in the sack' manouver. Ooohh.. that's gotta hurt."

[reneritchie]

Rickson by armbar

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Red5angel,
Could you please post the rules/restrictions/description of events here, as well as let us know the judges and scoring criteria? How is this going to work? I've been to a few of these before (some even in Ohio), and they tend to vary greatly in how they are implemented.

[Chum Kil]

What are chi sao people? I guess you will learn alot at this event.

[Merryprankster]

Can I box there? Really. I'm serious.

[joy chaudhuri]

MP: Most chi sao judges dont know what they are doing.
Lots of flailing arms and attempted muscling.
Rules vary... sometimes they make em up just before the matches.

So yes touch and drop em with a hook.
You might get a warning if the referee sees it.
I dont think that you learn much- but -sigh- they are here to stay.
Some can be funny- one of the times I judged- there wasa Northern prayin M guy who entered for fun...but he was afraid of getting close and just hung on and lost.
There was a chi sao and kung fu tourney in Chicago recently- same old same old. You have to have top level judges and clear rules announced months ahead of time.IMO of course

[fa_jing]

My Sifu said he saw a chi sao tournament here in Chicago, and it was mostly degenerating into two people wrestling with each other's arms. Hey, I just participated in a push hands event, and it harldy resembled push hands at all. I was as guilty as anybody, trying to use way too much force.

[hunt1]

This could be interesting.

Could get Carl D. chi sao vs HFY Chi sao

[OdderMensch]

:D foucs mitt contest :D

anyway the rules i'd like to see.

1) ignore the floor of the tourny, find the nearby hotel and comandire the elevator.

2) place two WC people on the first floor after first searching them for hidden weapons

3) when the elavator reachs the top floor the winner should be clear.

4) any contention? back down for round 2!

[UltimateFighter]

Chi-sau 'tournaments' are bull****. They are a corruption of the idea of chi-sau in an attempt to make it 'competetive', which is against the idea of chi sau in the first place. If you want real competition do full contact sparing or MMA.

Emin Boztepe recently ripped the **** out of chi-sau tournament in a combat interview. I tend to agree with his opinion that they are worthless.

[red5angel]

Imagine that UF, you and Bozteppe agree! :rolleyes:

I am working on getting more details. I just figured some of you guys in the area or who wouldnt mind travelling woudl be interested, I wil keep you up to date with what I know!

[teazer]

Like any game, it's what you reward people for that determines how they behave.

[UltimateFighter]

And imagine that, redangel disagree with me!

I am wondering what these mysterious 'chi-sau' tournaments are all about. They seem to fly in the face of most wing chun training. It looks like a farce but may be entertaining to see, if only to provide humour and entertainment.

[red5angel]

UF- What is it you are doing when you do chi sau? Why is it impossible for you to do it in a situation where there may be people from outside your regular routine doing it with you? Who say sit has to go against anything chi sau is supposed to be? I for one have always stated that in a wing chun related tourney I would rather loose and learn something then sacrifice to bad wingchun or no wingchun to win. Use these events as a learning situation and see how what you know stands up to what other people know.

I have seen too many WT schools whose instructors refuse to do chi sau with outsiders. Is this an attitude they instill in the entire organization? why is this the way it is in the first place?

[UltimateFighter]

The Boztepe article was interesting becasue he highlighted some points about the nature of the 'chi-sau tournaments and why they are bull****. I'm not one to agree with Boztepe (he is technically the enemy from a LTWT perspective), but he doesn't cut any bull which is good.

Basically the nature of chi sau is that you train sensitivity with a partner. You are not 'competing' like in a chi-sau tourney. The reason for this is that you are both staying in stance facing each other which is unrealistic. In a real fight, you use chi-sau once contact is established to deflect incoming force and then move round- you don't stand ther and try to 'get through' like in these tourneys. That is why I stay away from them.

So you should train chi sau with a partner to get sensitivity and reflexes, but if you want to apply chi sau skills in competition then put on the gloves and fight or spar full contact (we have 'fight clubs' now in WT for this purpose). Just don't stand in stance totally sqaure and train 'competition chi sau' as this develops VERY bad habits and will errode your skill.

I can only say that the attitude you have encountered of WT people not wanting to touch hands with other WC people is a regional thing. I would have no problem training with another lineage, it would be interesting to see other perspectives on the art.

[Atleastimnotyou]

i have been to one of these "chi sau tournements" before, and the only value that they have is so you can see how other lineages do chi sau.

Hunt1, there is no such thing as "Carl D. chi sau"

[teazer]

The reason for this is that you are both staying in stance facing each other which is unrealistic.


Do all tournaments have this requirement? Actually no. Some just mandate they maintain contact throughout with at least one arm. The footwork is otherwise unrestricted. In these cases, staying face to face would be a choice rather than stipulation.

[teazer]

I can only say that the attitude you have encountered of WT people not wanting to touch hands with other WC people is a regional thing. I would have no problem training with another lineage, it would be interesting to see other perspectives on the art. [/B]

The couple of WT I've met might be unrepresentative, but they were very friendly!

[AndrewS]

Jason,

which WT schools have you visited? How did you put your offer? It sounds like you've dropped in on a bunch. It's surprising that people might not want to deal with you face to face given the incredible social skills and general open-mindedness you display here.

Dropping by a class is generally not the best way to get to get a feel for someone's hands. Most people who teach publically realize that there are many interpretations of 'chi sao', many levels of comfort with contact level, etc. Add to this the real element that de-escalating someone who is trying to get over on you without losing face in fron of your students is frankly a pain in the *ss for which you receive little reward, and it's not surprising that most people don't like to play around with random strangers on first introduction.

That being said, pretty much every one of my friends within the WT organization has compared notes with people from other lines- including a number of contacts between your line and ours which have been more than cordial.

Have fun at the chi sao competition, I trust you will find much highly technical artistry and expression of Wing Chun as it should be there.

UF- the one nice thing about chi sao competitions for all their complete uselessness (why not just fight?)- you do get to meet a bunch of people and feel and discuss different approaches.

Later,

Andrew

[rubthebuddha]

UF,

listen to our sigung more often. emin isn't an enemy -- we have no enemies. emin did some pretty nasty things, oh well. emin split off and started his own organization, oh well. the people who have more reason to dislike emin are leung ting and keith kernspecht, and they don't hate him. heck, i've even been screwed by him pretty badly as one of his former students, but i don't hate him either.

just let it pass.

about chi sau tourney's being worthless -- it depends on what you want to get out of them. if you want combative, beat-them-up competition, call the UFC. but if you want experience working with lots of different hands, especially those who move a little differently, then go. and if you want to meet and shoot the **** with people outside your family, then go. chi sau tourneys aren't gauges of the best lineages or fighters -- just gauges of who was on that specific day and met specific criteria better than anyone else who showed.

[red5angel]

I think Rubthebuddha said it best......

[rubthebuddha]

of course i did. was there any question? :confused:


oh, and i do have one enemy. red5ngel, i'll see you at the swingset during recess. :mad:

;)

[red5angel]

I am ready to get my baconsammich on RTB!!!!! :mad:
:D

[red5angel]

OK Ladies and gentleman, here are the tourney rules. For MP, and anyone else who wants to know, you can do the continous sparring if you want to use another style, like boxing.

WING CHUN CHI SAU
Tournament Goals:
To promote and strengthen the art and spirit of Southern Short-Hand Kung-Fu.
To encourage sharing of knowledge and experience.
Objectives:
To test participants on the following qualities particular to Southern Short-Hand:
1. Sensitivity/Reaction Skills
2. Balance
3. Structure and Technique (Stance and Movements)
4. Timing and Speed
5. Control of Power and Distance
6. Clean Attacking, Blocking and Trapping Technique
Contest Format:
Each match will consist of two 2-minute rounds, with a 30-second rest period in between rounds.
The competition area will be a square space measuring 8' x 8', enclosed and divided into two halves by tape.
The opponents will bow to each other and to the referee and judges. They will then ``face off" at the center of the competition area and establish forearm contact in a double sticking hands position.
Following the directions of the referee, the contestants will begin ``rolling rotating their forearms at least three times before initiating an exchange of techniques.
Should the contestants disengage, they are to return to the center of the competition area and begin again with ``rolling hands" under the instruction of the referee.
If a contestant is driven out of the competition area, both competitors are to return to the center of the ``ring" and begin as stated above.
During the 30-second break period, the contestants are to return to their respective corners and adopt a kneeling or seated position until called by the referee.
How the Matches Will Be Officiated:
The officiating committee will consist of the following members:
1. Chief Judge
2. Corner Judges (4)
3. Center Referees
4. Timekeeper/Scorekeeper
The Chief Judge will be the arbiter in all disputes, and will announce the winner of each match. The Chief Judge's decision will be final on any judgment not covered by the rules.
The Corner Judge will score each match and determine the winner. Each Corner Judge will indicate an independent vote for the winner when the Chief Judge requests a call. A majority of votes determines a winner in each match. In the event of a draw, the Corner Judges will refer to Chief Judge for a decision. In the finals, a 20-second ``sudden death" round may be initiated if a draw occurs between all judges.
The Center Referee will be responsible for starting and stopping the action, for ensuring that all rules are followed, and that the safety of all participants is maintained. Only the Center Referee (or Chief Judge at his or her discretion) can stop the clock during action. The clock will be stopped should there be an infringement of the rules, an injury, an argument, or a withdrawal.
The Timekeeper/Scorekeeper will start and stop the clock in accordance with the signals of the Center Referee, and will ring a bell to announce the end of each segment of a match. As scorekeeper, he/she will record the results of each match and will inform the Chief Judge of the name of the winner.
Weight Classes:
1. Lightweightunder 145 lbs.
2. Middleweight146 175 lbs.
3. Heavyweight176 lbs. and above
Equipment:
Participants will be required to wear a T-shirt, martial arts pants, and athletic or kung fu shoes. No long sleeved shirts or pants will be permitted.
Contestants will not be permitted to wear any objects (including jewelry) that may cause injury to themselves or to their opponents. Fingernails must be clipped as short as possible, and will be inspected by the officials. A mouth-guard and groin cup are required. Head gear is optional. Hand and foot gear will not be required.
Protests:
Any protest must be immediately presented to the Chief Judge before the start of the following match. Protests presented after this time will not be considered.
Match Rules:
Judges will be looking for a continuous exchange of discernible techniques, with an emphasis on adherence or ``sticking". This is to be distinguished from wrestling, shoving, and boxing. Striking techniques employing the fist, open hand, and foot are to be directed at the opponent's chest protector only. Competitors should display good ``bridging" skills, i.e., adhering to the opponent's forearms while delivering attacks and counterattacks to precise body targets at close range.
Kicking is allowed only if: (1) to the chest protected areas and (2) at least one hand is in contact with the opponent's arm.
Not Permitted:
1. Committing any action with apparent intent to cause harm;
2. Blows delivered with the knee or head;
3. Punching, elbow, or chopping at the opponent's head or neck;
4. Wild, swinging punches which show a lack of ``bridging";
5. Kicking to the opponent's groin area or to any part of his or her legs;
6. ``Double-grabbing", i.e., holding the opponent with both hands without executing an attack;
7. Pulling or grabbing the opponent's hair or clothing;
8. Attacking the opponent after the referee has stopped the action;
9. Talking back disrespectfully to any official;
10. Using foul language or gestures toward anyone present during the competition;
11. Intentionally using a technique meant to cause injury to your opponent;
12. Issuing verbal instructions from ringside and issuing verbal instructions during the break period. (This refers to instructors and fellow students)
A contestant may receive a maximum of ONE warning for breaking any of the above rules. Two infringements of the rules will lead to immediate disqualification. Any intentional or excessive contact will result in immediate disqualification.

[red5angel]

For you guys that are worried about how it looks or if it works, thats the test. If you have to use force to control your opponent you are not good an dthat will show in this sort of contest. If you are good you will not and that will be reflected as well.

[teazer]

Rules seem ok. A few quirks, but so long as the judging is good & non-political and participants have a common understanding of acceptable power in their strikes, it should be interesting. Might be worth getting some non-participants/judges to do a demo beforehand though, just to get everyone on the same page. In the interests of friendly competition....;)

[gnugear]

Sounds interesting ... I'd like to try it once to see what it's like.

[wc student]

To get full details go to www.wutangcenter.com This is not just a chi sao tournament, but a full kung fu tournament. It has been a good time in the past, very interesting.

[ewallace]

I'm going to start charging .75 USD for every post that includes the term "Bacon Sammich". Thank you.

[rubthebuddha]

holy shat! with that above my avatar, that's at least $7,500 i owe you! :eek:


:(

[anerlich]

No long sleeved shirts or pants will be permitted.

Interesting rules. If I can't wear pants can I at least wear a cup? :D

Seriously, nothing wrong with this if people treat as a friendly contest and chance to learn without assuming that a win means they're the baddest person on the planet or even in the neighbourhood.

Hope it's a success for everyone involved. Bit far for us in Oz.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Canton Hall of Fame Chinese Martial Arts tournament Chi Sao results-

Carl Dechiara's student's got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place in the
recent tournament. actually 3rd and 4th place tied so they gave 3rd to both. There were only 7 people that competed, and 4 of them were from Carl's group. Everything went well in terms of the compitetion, and everybody seemed to think it was fair and worked out well.

They had a 10x10 ring, did 3 rounds, 2 rounds were 45 seconds(which seemed too long really), where one person attacked and one defended and 1 round where both attacked and defended.

Basicly they would roll 3 times and then the one person would attack, while the other one would try to neutralize.

Everyone used head gear and light contact to the face and body was allowed. No kicks or sweeps, elbows, or chops to the neck. Stepping out of the ring with both feet was counted off.

After 3 rounds judges were to raise there hands towards the person who they thought won. Everyone seemed to agree most of the time. With 3 judges it was easy to decide who won.

[Odie-wan]

I'm surprised only 7 people competed. What other schools represented?

[reneritchie]

Rickson by armbar?

[old jong]

Tyson by eating?

[old jong]

Chi sau competitions (IMO) sound a little strange to me.I know it is getting popular in some way and we can see (sometimes) a winner but....It is a drill!
Why not simply fight?...

[yuanfen]

Chi sao competitions can sort out skills toa limited extent IFFFFF
the rules of control are clear and there are experienced and fair judges. But chi sao is not fighting
And if you have a small gathering and the majorty of people are from the same school- no surprise that they win 1st 2nd and 3rd place. Not much to report- I would think.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Chi sao competitions can sort out skills toa limited extent IFFFFF the rules of control are clear and there are experienced and fair judges. But chi sao is not fighting

Thank goodness. :D


And if you have a small gathering and the majorty of people are from the same school- no surprise that they win 1st 2nd and 3rd place. Not much to report- I would think.

The report seems far fetched. Red5Angle expects us to believe his version of events? Ridiculous. Obviously, it never happened. :rolleyes: Notice how vague the details are---no mention of names, f'r'instance. :)

He probably spent all weekend bowling and drinking beer and made it up. :) Let's see the video.

As the French say, Plus ça change, plus c'est le même chose. Never more than now, have I wondered just what that means. :)

Regards,

[red5angel]

Actually Grendel, I wasnt there, if you notice atleastimnotyou posted the results.......

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by yuanfen
And if you have a small gathering and the majorty of people are from the same school- no surprise that they win 1st 2nd and 3rd place. Not much to report- I would think.

Carl's students weren't the only ones in the competition. Other students could have won it, if they were good. They just didn't happen to win.

[red5angel]

"And if you have a small gathering and the majorty of people are from the same school- no surprise that they win 1st 2nd and 3rd place. Not much to report- I would think"

Like Chris said, I am not sure of the legitemacy of this argument, if you are good or better then your opponents you would place in a contest regardless of how many people from another school are there. Like atleastimnotyou said, anyone there could have won it or taken a place anyway, if they were good enough.

[yuanfen]

Suggest you look into a book on statistics and sampling before you draw large conclusions from your own reporting of 7 participants, 4 of whom are from your "group". Its a big wide world out there.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Joy, i understand what you are saying, but it is not statistics that the rest didn't do well.

Corey

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
Joy, i understand what you are saying, but it is not statistics that the rest didn't do well.

Corey

Hi Corey,

I think the results were great, and congratulations to everyone who participated. Let's hope that you and your school mates get a chance to compete in more tournaments so it can be shown that the results are not a statistical anomaly.

Regards,

[red5angel]

Yuanfen, its a good excuse, really, and if I were a loosing member of some smaller school I might be tempted to use it, but the facts are, if you are good you will place, regardless of how many and from where, all the other participants are. True if you have only one guy and you can only qualify for one place then you will only take one place, but the key is that if you are good you WILL place. In this case 1st, 2nd and 3rd place were taken by one school, and there were representatives of other schools there.
By your logic, if I ran a school and wanted to win a tournemant, all I would have to do is make sure I had more people then anyone else?

[wc student]

statistics are good way at looking at the turn out. 7 participants 4 from same school that works out to 57% from the same school. 1,2,3, with a third place tie that works out to 75%.
its a big wide world out there and it is a same that they only had 7 participants (sad)

[Zhuge Liang]

Yuenfan has a very good point. Although I believe Carl and his students deserve hearty congradulations all around, winning a tournament of 7, especially if one school has a majority of the participants, doesn't sound as impressive as a tournament with over a hundred participants with 10 to 20 schools.

Let me put it this way. Red, you know how you visited schools that you claimed sucked? Now think of two of those schools, go ahead and picture them in your head, I'll wait... Now suppose school A and school B entered a tournament where they were the only participants. 4 are from school A and 3 are from school B. School A managed to place 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, with 3rd place tied with school B. Now school A goes on a public forum and reports their success. Are you impressed?

Probably not. You might think that school A and school B both suck, but school A just happens to suck less than school B. So if school A places, so what. Now, if there were hundreds of participants in the tournament with 10 to 20 schools, the chances of them ALL sucking are much lower. If you manage to place in that tournament, it would be a lot more impressive. After all, would you rather be king of the hill or king of the mountain?

Zhuge Liang

[red5angel]

wc student, I think that is a comment that needs to be looked at. Where are all these other people? I see all sorts on this board claiming to like to exchange ideas and touch hands but when the oppurtunity presents itselfs there are other things going on.

Zhuge - you are correct, it is more impressive if there are more people but I think the results would be about the same ;)

[yenhoi]

Who cares!

next, a footwork drill tournament...................... who can do the slt the slowest!!!!

erg?

This is akin to a boxing school having a focus mitt tournament..... laughable.

[gnugear]

I still think it sounds like fun, and if I ever get the opportunity, I'll probably check it out.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
...They had a 10x10 ring, did 3 rounds, 2 rounds were 45 seconds(which seemed too long really), where one person attacked and one defended and 1 round where both attacked and defended.

Basicly they would roll 3 times and then the one person would attack, while the other one would try to neutralize...

Why is it that in the first 2 rounds, only one person is allowed to attack; and the other defends only and cannot attack? What if the defender attacks? Will the defender be penalized for attacking?

In wing chun, attack is the secret of our defense. Prohibiting a WC guy from attacking would rob him of his defense. If you are just content in neutralizing your attacker and fending off his attacks, sooner or later his attacks will succeed.

I'm not saying that the rules sucks. I'm just curious about the reason for such a rule. Please advise.

[Atleastimnotyou]

wingman.

a good WC guy should be able to nuetralize and dominate his opponent. Those rules (im guessing) are there to see if Competitor A is good in that regard, while at the same time seeing if Competitor B is proficant at attacking. then they switch. If both attack and defend at the same time, it may turn into a slug fest with no skill. that is why they only have one round of that... i suppose

"If you are just content in neutralizing your attacker and fending off his attacks, sooner or later his attacks will succeed." that is true. that is why the rounds are only 30 seconds or so. A good WC guy can completely dominate his opponent for that length of time.

[Wingman]

Atleastimnotyou,

Thanks for the quick reply. I think your explanation for the rule in attacking and defending is reasonable. I agree with you that, "a good WC guy should be able to neutralize and dominate his opponent." One practical scenario I can think of is when you want to neutralize/dominate a guy who has run amok. And you don't want to hurt the guy because he is someone you know. Your training in nuetralizing/dominating without attacking would certainly come in handy.

Going back to the tournament rules, you still have not answered a couple of my questions.:)

What if the defender attacks? Will the defender be penalized for attacking?

[Atleastimnotyou]

I honestly don't know. Maybe it's "opps don't do that again" lol

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Grendel
As the French say, Plus ça change, plus c'est le même chose. Old Jong, Do you ever say this? ;)

Matrix

[old jong]

''plus ca change ,plus c'est pareil''
All the times!...;)

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
I honestly don't know. Maybe it's "opps don't do that again" lol

:D LOL. Yes, I guess that could have happened in the tournament. My guess is, there were violations on the rule against attacking because it is the nature of WC people to attack. As long as it is not intentional, then maybe the referee can just let it go.

[yuanfen]

''plus ca change ,plus c'est pareil''
All the times!... (sez old jong)

"jaha chahe thaha nahi paye, jaha paye thaha nahi chahe"
(sez old bengali)

wingman- chi sao as we know is not fighting but for honing one's skills. In fighting one doesnt defend as much as in chi sao,
((the kwan shouldnt make any sound- one at the most)),,BUT
knowing defense advances attacking in the right way. So taking turns on defense is testing of skills.The common denominator is control- by insuring that there are turns at defense can demonstrate control. Of course unfortunately in many cases-
there is very little control- brcause the particpants dont understand it or the judges dont or both.. BTW training and fighting are not really the same... boxers dont take skipping ropes, medicine balls or speed bags or sparring partners(with headgear etc) to their encounters...but they serve their specific purposes in training.)

[Merryprankster]

If both attack and defend at the same time, it may turn into a slug fest with no skill.

What a perfectly silly idea. If you can't do both at the same time with skill, haven't you missed the point? What is described sounds like a drill, except for the last round, which sounds a little less like a drill.

Why go to a tournament to engage in a drill? Drills are for training, as Yuan pointed out. Is there real value in demonstrating mastery of a drill, beyond training purposes?

This all hurts my head :( I don't think I have the mindset to understand this :confused:

[Frank Exchange]

I have been in quite a few chisao tournaments, and consider them a total waste of time.

This idea of only defending goes against one of the most fundamental concepts of wing chun, which is that attack is the best form of defence.

We had a guy from our school disqualified once for being "too direct"! :rolleyes:

Another one risked disqualification during a "defending" phase, when his opponent did a sloppy attack and got smacked in the mouth for his pains. He simply said "That was my defence!".

I can understand the principle of limiting the rules to check a certain aspect of skill, but I dont understand why we would need to do this when it is clear when doing normal chisao at one's own class who is better than who. You dont need any artificial rules there, so why do we need them in a competition?

Removing one of wing chun's best weapons IMO does not enhance the comparison of the rest of the skill set. If we are going to do this, why not chisao competitions on one leg, or using one arm only?

Waste of time.

I really like OdderMenchs idea of the elevator! That is WC in a nutshell.
Simple, direct, efficient, and obvious. :)

[kj]

Originally posted by Frank Exchange
This idea of only defending goes against one of the most fundamental concepts of wing chun, which is that attack is the best form of defence.

I completely agree.

I inquired on this (with minds I consider far greater than my own) about the one person attacks/other defends concept in chi sau tournaments. It seems to make sense only in context of the initiating movements. Once the "attacker" has begun, the "defender" should be free to apply whatever defense is called for, including attack of his/her own.

I have no illusion that chi sau tournaments are the end-all-be-all of anything, a compromise at best.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[old jong]

It is turning a perfectly good drill for fighting into a side-show!...The skills we develop in chi sau make us attack at the smallest gap in the opponent structure.These rules are going against what we are training for. In a real life situation,you will need these skills not deformed by training the bad way for some contest.
If some want to compete,let them fight with real contact,using good protective gear.
It will be better for our collective reputation!;) ....(We hate to give headaches to our public don't we?...):D

[red5angel]

Some of you guys arent really paying attention to your training are you? Lets stop to think about why in a tournemant, or competitive situation you would choose to have one person defend and one attack and then vice versa?
The attack/defend format is so that each participant can show whether they have appreciable skill in both aspects of wingchun, and those are two aspects that can be demonstrated seperately. The whole idea of the contest is to show that you know how to use WINGCHUN. If you say a sparring contest is a much better way of seeing who is better you dont get it and probably shouldtn bother.

[kungfu cowboy]

The whole idea of the contest is to show that you know how to use WINGCHUN. If you say a sparring contest is a much better way of seeing who is better you dont get it and probably shouldtn bother

Shouldn't you be able to use your wing chun in a sparring situation?!?:confused: Really! Doing it the way you described may showcase skill in a pattycake drill sense, but wouldn't a real (or more realistic) fight be even mucho grande better? Actually, the more succesful someone can use wing chun in a fight that approaches 'reality' the more impressive, and indicative of real martial ability. Isn't it? Why all the limiting rules? :confused: Why not anything goes, from striking to grappling, if wing chun can handle it all?:confused:

[Atleastimnotyou]

i personally look at these things as a chance to touch hands with someone from a different lineage. nothing more

[old jong]

How can you talk about other's training and how they pay attention to it?....Do you read minds or send astral spies like ashida kim?...
If some like to decorticate Wing Chun into Attack/defend formats and compete this way,that's their privilege.That's also my privilege to give my opinion on the subject without nasty remarks about my training or how I pay attention to it!
Why not compete in Wing Chun talking without really knowing?...I bet you would win!...
Yes,I believe that fighting is better for two reasons: Chi sau rules go against what chi sau is all about and: Nobody wins fights with their mouth!
I bet you don't get it so,don't bother.

[red5angel]

Kungfucowboy, I understand what you are saying but you are missing the point. think of it as technical test of your wingchun ability. You are right, you should be able to use them in a fight, but if you want that go to UFC or some other all out no holds barred contest, there are competitions out there for anyone if that is what you are into.
I believe that by showing your technical competence at something like a chi sao tournemant, you can show that you have the wingchun skills to fight. Of course there are other attributes you will need as well but a chi sao tourney can show you how it stands up to other peoples chi sao and their way of doing things.
To me its like saying why go to a car show if you can just go to a crash up derby instead?

[kungfu cowboy]

i personally look at these things as a chance to touch hands with someone from a different lineage. nothing more
This is true. In a sort of academic sense. Fun to 'feel' someone elses training.


red5, I didn't mean a complete no holds barred chainsaw extravaganza. Just spontaneous attack and defense. With gear if desired. Minimal rules like no deadly eye gouges, groin strikes, limb breaks or dislocations.:)

[old jong]

Instead of testing skills to fight ,why not test skills in fights?... This would also prevent chi sau tricks from becoming the norms in evaluating Wing Chun! (Do you understand what I mean here R5A ?)
chi sau tricks!...

[red5angel]

KFC - LOL! Good because I have as of yet left out the chainsaws in training. However, If you notice the rules you will notice that while the first few minutes of each match are for attack/defend the latter part is open. I believe they also tend to have an even more open set of matches for those who desire it, although I dont know how restrictive the rules are.

Old Jong, I get you, and I think there are places and competitions just for that very thing. Certainly any of the MMA type events would work for that. FOr this type of event though I think it is still relevant to anyone who wishes to test their wingchun ability around which our crown jewel, chi sao can be a good measuring stick.

[reneritchie]

What about round 3, no using the center line, and round 4, no using the horse. Maybe round 5 should have hands behind the back, and round 6 only allow left Tan Sao...

Yeesh.

Rickson by armbar.

[old jong]

Yeah Rene!...:rolleyes: ;)

''I think it is still relevant to anyone who wishes to test their wingchun ability around which our crown jewel,''

Great!...Let's have our own little games and let's keep transforming Wing Chun into some kind of child play.

Again: Chi sau is a drill for developing fighting skill for combat.The best way to see it's results are in combat. It is easy to turn chi sau into a collection of tricks giving the illusion of skill.These tricks are good only to fool idiotic juges in competitions but would not fool an angry and willing opponent in a real situation.

[red5angel]

Old Jong I understand what you are saying but wouldnt you say that if you werent doing chi sau correctly then your tools would not work efficiently? How would you propose to set about a way to maintain that consistant wya of doing these things? Wouldnt freindly competition help this? Lest say my school has figured out a better way of doing something, and we meet in a competition,, and you see that whatever it is, it works better then what you are doing. wouldnt this be a lesson learned?
I would agree the best most pure way to see these results are in combat, no rules, no equipment, etc... but realistically there are other ways to test what we are practicing. A chi sao tourney is just one of those.

[reneritchie]

Once again, I ask how a Chi Sao tournament for WCK is any more relavent than a focus pad tournament for Muay Thai, or a shrimp (elbow escape) race for BJJ, or a "swimming" for underhooks challenge for wrestlers, etc. etc. ad nauseum infinitum...

[red5angel]

RR - you are a pretty smart guy and I have faith that you can answer that one your self ;)

[old jong]

There is a point you miss R5A...I talk about chi sau tricks! things that can allow someone to touch an opponent but have no power in a real fight. Remember the Karate back fist crase?...Everybody was scoring high with that in the ''golden era'' of point Karate!....It changed a lot when contact Karate and kick boxing started to emerge. The fast flicking back fist was totally ineffective in a real fight and everybody serious turned back to strong and effective basic techniques and the wise talks about techniques ended.
Are we going to make the same mistakes Karate made in the seventies?...Are we doing to Wing Chun what they did to Tai-Chi?...
You want to compete ?...put on your gear if you want and go all out full contact!...This is Kung Fu. not philosophy!

[yenhoi]

chi sau is not a demonstration of wing chun

chi sau is not a demonstration of wing chun skills

chi sau is not a demonstration of wing chun ability

chi sau is not a demonstration of wing chun defense

chi sau is not a demonstration of wing chun attack

chi sau is a drill. Attack your opponents centerline.

There is no seperation of attack and defense in wing chun.

Wing Chun is not a hammer you use to smash people with. Wing chun is a training method for your body to go out and smash things with.

For someone who is worried about the image or status of Wing Chun, this is a very weird shift of position, as a chi sau tournament is absolutly silly, and reeks of mcdojo.

[old jong]

:D :D :D Whistle competitions for referees!;)

[red5angel]

hey guys, have you ever done chi sao with someone who really wants to hit you? When was the last time you felt those adrenals kick in?

Old Jong - I really do understand what you are syaing, and if you are a smart wingchun person, you know when you go to a chi sao tourney, that although you are testing your wingchun skill things may be different in a fight since he may not go with the you attack he defends format :)
To test if you know how to replace a carburator you dont replace the whole engine.

yenhoi, I almost totally disagree ;)

[Merryprankster]

Kungfucowboy, I understand what you are saying but you are missing the point. Think of it as technical test of your boxing ability. You are right, you should be able to use it in a fight, but if you want that go to UFC or some other all out no holds barred contest, there are competitions out there for anyone if that is what you are into.
I believe that by showing your technical competence at something like a pounding the heavy bag tournemant, you can show that you have the boxing skills to fight. Of course there are other attributes you will need as well but a heavy bag tourney can show you how it stands up to other people's heavy bag work and their way of doing things.
To me its like saying why go to a car show if you can just go to a crash up derby instead?

:rolleyes:

[old jong]

Remember This?.... (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=16290) You where among the first to jump on me about being too in a hurry and worried about results etc,etc!...Adrenalin is part of our training.We train in chi sau for it's benefits in real fighting,not for it's sake!

[red5angel]

Correct Old jong, being too greedy and moving ahead of yourself gets you nowhere. Anyone in a class environament knows that the amount of adrenaline experienced over time is not nearly what it is if someone confronts you in the street. The classroom gets comfortable.

[reneritchie]

Have a pic nik like KJ or Marty Goldberg organize, or arrange a Friendship gathering or the like, then get together and Chi Sao, San Sao, or whatever else like minded folks have an interest in. After a few hours, you get really drained, and a headache from all the different methods you get to try, and adenalin dumps from the more excitable attendees, and a broad smile from some real interaction, no stinkin points or "judges".

[old jong]

Great!....Let's talk with hands! Oh Oh! not the same thing as in forum!...Intellectual knowledge alone is not working there!...Ouch!....Being idealistic and cultist can hurt!...Hey stop hitting me with that slightly off centered fook sau hand,it is not supposed to work!...Oufff!....You hitted me in the slack using.....Force!!!!!...Why are you looking at me like that?...Why are you foaming from the mouth?....Be internalllll,pleaaaase!....

Just kidding but it fells good!;) :D

[reneritchie]

OJ - Easy for you to laugh, but I've had that experience. A lot of people like to complain during Chi Sao, or if they don't do well, they're full of - "that person was a head hunter; this person was rapidly changing speed; that person was just a bully; that person was Chi Sao'ing wrong; etc. etc."

Bottom line, if you're doing it *right* you should be able to handle those doing it *wrong*, even more easily (caveat about beginners understood), and if you can't you're not doing it *right* enough, so stop b!tchin and get back to training.

That said, personally I like to create a productive ground for exchange and tend to Chi Sao pretty similarly to whomever I'm visiting and exchanging with at the time. Some are comfortable slow and feely, others want to bang. I like the variety. That's why I also liked the bigger get-to-gethers like the Friendship Seminars, where you could Chi Sao with a Ken Chung lineage person one minute, a Moy Yat person the next, a TWC person third, someone old, someone young, someone bursting with muscles and someone light as can be.

Needless to say, in a tournament, we probably wouldn't all be in the same divison, wouldn't be able to go all night, and would be more concerned about the freakin judges than about improving our own WCK...

(And BTW- No throwing Poutine in the faces of your opponents 8P )

RR

[old jong]

As I said ''Just kidding but it fells good!''...This poutine in the face was not intended at you or your idea!...I was just fantasing about R5A vs some ''angry resisting opponent'' with a will to hurt and a bad breath!...
I would like to go to a Wing Chun picnic some day as long as the tums are for free!...:p

[kungfu cowboy]

Merryprankster, now you are just 100 percent wrong here. Just kidding! Of course I see how it can be a demonstration of technical competence. And how a skill can be carried over from an artificial construct to reality. But it is the level of artificiality in this situation and in chi sao competitions in general that I don't like. If the exchange, although controlled with preplanned roles is real for its limited duration, then cool. I can see this brief interaction being useful and a real test of ability. It just seems to me that a more realistic approach could showcase that much better. And kungfu fighting is cool.

[red5angel]

OJ - "I was just fantasing about R5A vs some ''angry resisting opponent'' with a will to hurt and a bad breath!."

not nice at all, but dont fool yourself OJ, just because I think chi sao tourneys are legite doesnt mean I dont know how to fight.
KFC, I think you guys have got stuck on the first few rules of the tourney, if you read further you will find there is some open sparring or chi sao.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Mp
your ability to reverse what people say is irrelavent and doesn't prove or disprove anything.

[old jong]

Originally posted by red5angel


not nice at all, but dont fool yourself OJ, just because I think chi sao tourneys are legite doesnt mean I dont know how to fight.

Not nice at all?...Come on R5A!...You said worse things before I believe!

I sure hope you know how to fight better than you know how to talk!...Sometimes too much is the same as too little.

[kungfu cowboy]

Uh-doinkie! There was free sparring!? I do believe I am blushing.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by old jong
This poutine in the face was not intended at you or your idea No fair, the gravy was too hot! I got hit in the eye with a cheese curd!
Oh boy, I can hear the excuses already. ;)

Matrix

[Merryprankster]

Kung Fu Cowboy--I think you missed the point... it was a joke.

Atleastimnotyou--Actually, it's called satire, and it's one of the more interesting (in my mind) devices used to make a point. Try some. It might suit you better than being stuffy. Sometimes a little humor goes a long way.

Now, Ahem, since my particular brand of humor seems to have missed the mark...

NOBODY thinks that demonstrating good padwork or heavybag work shows that a person has the ability to box because there is so much more to it than firing combinations on the move or having good punching power. These things are drills. Great for what they are--no more, no less. Great punching power does not indicate great fighting skill. Plenty of big punch boxers out there that are dismantled by people who are better BOXERS.

A Chi Sao tournament is like having a padwork tournament--especially with the rules as heavily edited as they were for this one. It's like providing medals for people who were best at padwork. So what? I have no problems with competition, but this is just like home run derbies or longest drive competitions. Interesting curiosities that don't actually demonstrate anything about what you are capable of within the context of the entire activity.

Want to have a Chi Sao tournament, be my guest. But call a spade a spade--you tested your ability to do a drill--and under a very specific format. No more, no less.

[yuanfen]

MP sez:
Atleastimnotyou--Actually, it's called satire, and it's one of the more interesting (in my mind) devices used to make a point. Try some. It might suit you better than being stuffy. Sometimes a little humor goes a long way
-------------------------------------------------------------
The good humor man- van missed some stops in Cleveland and Minneapolis lately.

[old jong]

Somewhere in the states....They have to race in old model T Ford holding a pig on their lap!....Now,that's skill testing!....;)

[yuanfen]

Youve got to see the great annual Demming(New Mexico)
Duck race to appreciate skill. Regarding the pig and the model T- couldnt have been a pot bellied pig- far too intelligent to leave the driving to humans.

[old jong]

I once saw women wrestling in mud. They had a good stick!;)

[kungfu cowboy]

NO, Merryprankster. I think that it is you that misunderstood my incredibly witty and tongue-in-cheek response to your sarcastic response. Of course I knew it was a joke. Sheesh!;)

[Merryprankster]

No, I think YOU misunderstood my tremendously witty reply to your witty reply.

And my lineage is better.

And ummm...

I got nothin.... :D

[red5angel]

Yuanfen, its not that the good humor Van missed minneapolis or Cleveland, its that the good joke van apprently missed this forum....

MP- You know I respect you man, and I mean no offense by saying this but comparing chi sao to bag work I think shows that you are missing some understanding of chi sao. I am going to go out on a limb here and say thta while I am sure there is alot going on in bag work, chi sao is an elegant and more comprehensive type od "drill". Anyway, let the berating begin :)

[Merryprankster]

Red,

Then compare it to focus mitt work, instead, which is a far more complicated drill than the heavy bag. FAR more complicated--in fact, it forces you to use ALL your boxing skills. But being good at pad work doesn't make you a good boxer--it's still just a drill.

[red5angel]

Yes but to be a good wingchun person you have to be good at chi sao, would you say it is the same for focus mitt work?
All of the basic and integral skills we use in wingchun are in chi sao.

[old jong]

Chi sau is a very important part of Wing Chun as are forms,techniques, applications and principles.
It can be seen as a 'bridge' to combat witch is the real meaning of Wing Chun.
It links the other ingredients of the system together in a free,undetermined in advance flow of attacks and defenses allowing for a good study environment in Wing Chun's techniques and sticking/sensitivity.

Now,it seems that many are turning this into a sport /contest...Everybody is free to approve or disapprove as nothing is completely white or black.
We'll see the effects of this in the future.

[red5angel]

Old jong, what makes you say it is becoming a sport? Because there are competitions? That hardly makes it a sport.

I would go so far as to say that Chi Sao is not just a drill but the core of wingchuns combat or fighting strategy. I say if it is a good study environment as you say, it is also a good testing environment.

[old jong]

Sport,contest,competition,challenge,testing whatever!
It is still out of context,like a pencil sharpening contest for writers!...

[red5angel]

can you tell me exactly what you mean by out of context Old Jong so I understand what it is you are trying to say please?

[reneritchie]

r5a-


core of wingchuns combat or fighting strategy

What do you consider WCK's fighting strategy to be?

RR

[old jong]

Originally posted by red5angel
can you tell me exactly what you mean by out of context Old Jong so I understand what it is you are trying to say please?

Out from it's original meaning or role or use, you get the idea?...;)
Is context a proper english word?...I know I sometimes anglicise french words!;)

[red5angel]

Old Jong, what is its original use or meaning?

[Merryprankster]

Red5,

yes. If you are a good boxer you are very likely good at focus mitt work. However, it doesn't necessarily go the other way. You can be good at focus mitt work and suck as a boxer.

Same, I bet for WC. You could probably be great at the drill of chi sao and rotten as a WC fighter. This is the reality of drills. They are designed to help you improve in your activity, not BE the activity. It's just a piece of the puzzle.

Full contact sparring is very different from drilling.

So, I'm not arguing that chi sao isn't fundamental to WC, or that skill in chi sao isn't important. My disagreement with you is over whether or not demonstrating good chi sao means being a good WC man/fighter. Your writing so far seems to want to equate the two, and I'm 99% certain they ain't.

[red5angel]

OK, I understand what you are syaing but I still disagree. I think chi sao is that integrated into what we do as WC people. I believe Old jong at one point on one of these threads pointed out that chi sao takes all of the basics we learn and puts them all into one environment for the sake of study. I liken somewhere closer to free sparring some arts do in their schools then to drills. there is some drilling in the beginning when you are building up to sparring but eventually it becomes a free flowing fighting/learning environment.
All of the sklls you need to be a good wingcun man are in chi sao, are trained in chi sao and are therefore represented in chi sao. thats why I see it as a good a thing as any to represent someones mastery of wingchun. theres more to it of course. But its like an all out brawl like ufc or K1 or whatever you favorite may be. You dont get to use all of your tools in those either.

[old jong]

Originally posted by red5angel
Old Jong, what is its original use or meaning?

As I said earlier: ''Chi sau is a very important part of Wing Chun as are forms,techniques, applications and principles.
It can be seen as a 'bridge' to combat witch is the real meaning of Wing Chun.
It links the other ingredients of the system together in a free,undetermined in advance flow of attacks and defenses allowing for a good study environment in Wing Chun's techniques and sticking/sensitivity.'' (IMHO of course!)

;)