What kind of Chi Kung do different branches of Wing Chun do

[FIRE HAWK]

Such as Yuen Kay san , Hung Fa Yi , Gu Lao Pien san , Yip Man , Fut Sao , Pao Fa Lien , Malaysian Wing Chun , Cho Ga Wing Chun , Pan Nam , Viet Nam Wing Chun , Jee Shim Weng Chun , and all the other Wing Chuns ?

[reneritchie]

Yuen Kay-San/Sum Nung does Sun Hei Gwai Yuen (Kidney Breath Return Source)
Pan Nam does Ng Jee Mui Fa Hei Gong (Five Petal Plum Blossom Breath Work)
Some Vietnam WCK does Ng Ying Hei Gong (Five Animals Breath Work) (some do none or do other kinds).
Chi Sim Weng Chun does Ng Jong Hei Gong (Five Posture Breath Work).

BTW - Why, when you have so much time on your hands, do you still cop out and ask others to do your work for you? Log onto to Google, man, and do some searching!!!

RR

[Geezer]

Rene wrote

BTW - Why, when you have so much time on your hands, do you still cop out and ask others to do your work for you? Log onto to Google, man, and do some searching!!!

Sheldon wrote

Does anyone know why FIREHAWK asks so many QUESTIONS

Rene wrote

Sheldon - If you build a message board, they will post!

;)

[yuanfen]

Firehawks questions has got me reeling so much that I am going back to my old yoga chi kung and stand on my head.

[Chango]

Rene,
Chi sim does more then just the 5 posture Hei Gong. Keep in mind that HFY and Chi Sim (shoulin W.C. systems) foundations are both in Hei gong. Both systems have Hei gong versions of each set or form. both systems stress these practices. In HFY it is said that Biu jee can only be realized with proper Hei gong training. The Hei gong is part of the DNA of both of these systems. Not gathered from a seperate source sort of speak. As a matter of fact Hei gong is a key element of the foundation from which each of these system are developed!

Chango (saat geng sau);)

[yenhoi]

Doesnt the SLT and stance work count as Chi Kung?

[reneritchie]

Hey Chango,

You know my opinion. If someone knows Hei Gong, they can practice pretty much anything with cultivation. If they don't, doesn't matter what people say something is, how they link it to what temple, or what two distinct arts they for-some-reason insist on always mentioning together, it won't be Hei Gong.

RR
(just sittin' here breathing)

[anerlich]

TWC has some basic breathing drills in YGKM, front stance, and one with steps and circling the arms.

I learned a number of Shaolin sets from my first (part TWC) instructor, some Taoist Yoga breathing from a number of years in Xingyi/Bagua,

and some Zdorovye breathing drills from a ROSS training system video.

The last I have found to be the most effective.

Part of the DNA? I guess I'm doing a GM martial art! and I like it? Am I evil? Will I glow in the dark like those mice with the jellyfish DNA?

[Chango]

anerlich,
I have to say that bioluminescence is a very amazing phenomenon. It is a chemical reation actually. however when I say DNA I mean part of the foundation from which the system is based. Infact both systems Chi sim and HFY have particular applications of Hei Gong. So you will find that these systems have precise exercises for Hei gong development. Sure I know most people believe that almost any Hei gong practice will do. But in this particular case the practice is very precise in it's nature. I can go as far as to say that it is just as much of a part of the system as the individual forms! So like Bioluminescene found in Jelly fish and other deep water ocean life it is part of thier original make up and is very specific to the nature of thier development.

Regards,
Chango (SGS)

[Savi]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Firehawks questions has got me reeling so much that I am going back to my old yoga chi kung and stand on my head.

As the saying goes "There are no stupid questions" Firehawk's desire to ask this forum for information should be welcomed, not shunned. Whose to say he did not search himself, and is asking also for your/our takes on the subject? He should be able to ask freely, just as we have the choice of offering our information. Even if only to refer Firehawk to another source of information, shouldn't there be alittle more integrity in the responses?

-Savi.

[FIRE HAWK]

I did look up some of them such as the Chi kung in Rene s Yuen Kay San book and in the Complete Wing Chun book it talks some about Chi kung practiced by different versions of Wing Chun and i looked on the internet . I just wanted to know how these Chi kungs in these versions of Wing Chun work such as in breathing and movement and technique and there relationship to other Wing Chun versions like Chi Sim Weng Chun Chi kung and Hung Fa Yi Wing chun come from shaolin and it seems that Yip Man wing Chun dont seem to have Chi kung only a few like William Cheungs Traditional Wing Chun from Yip man .

[Chango]

Firehawk,
I just wanted to let you know that hei gong is a very important part of Chi sim and HFY systems. It is not something that was "imported" if you wil l form a outside sourcel. But part of the foundation and core of these Shaolin systems. If do not have these practices you will not have true HFY or Chi Sim in the end. For the most part if what you are doing does not have a specific Hei gong then chances are it is not Shaolin. I don't think it could be disputed that shaolin practices indeed will have some form of Hei gong. That being said the nature of WCK is very precise so it only stands to reason that your WCK would demand precise practices in this area as well. I do not speak for anything else. I'm only offering what I know. I hope this helps.

Chango (SGS) :cool:

[reneritchie]

Chango,

Leaving Chi Sim (which once again is a distinct system all its own) out of it for a moment. How do you *know* (not have been told, not think, not would like to believe, but *know* beyond any doubt, unto a divine certainty) that some systems did not "import" their Hei Gung? How can you *absolutely* cleave nature from nurture?

And, if you found out one day that the Hei Gung had been imported, would you stop practicing it? If not, how big a differentiator is it?

RR
(figuring that Qigong was imported into Shaolin to begin with...)

[joy chaudhuri]

This import- export business and verbiage is full of pitfalls.
When something is discovered ina bucket and you become aware of it and use it- is that importing it? You cannot live without chi, prana etc and other synonyms for life and life force. So when you develop efficient uses of energy by any name it is not completely importing it. Part of the give and take of human history involves-
importing, exporting, sharing, borrowing, stealing and giving.
Some of claims and mystification of Shaolin and Chan are amusing...Chan is the importation, adaptation and sinification of Sanskrit "Dhyan" and Pali "Zhan" as part of the transmission of Buddhism.

[reneritchie]

Joy,

Well said. I often wonder why some choose to freeze-frame video and claim it to be the absolute picture of how things are. Time flows. Why make static what is in essence dynamic, but to wrap it up and package it?

RR

[anerlich]

Last think I knew, the pole got imported into WC.

I found the DNA thing a bit pretentious, is all.

[Grendel]

Hi Joy,

Originally posted by joy chaudhuri

Part of the give and take of human history involves-
importing, exporting, sharing, borrowing, stealing and giving.

So true, and also imitation. But, the most important is outright stealing. That's why the English language is so resilient.


Some of claims and mystification of Shaolin and Chan are amusing...Chan is the importation, adaptation and sinification of Sanskrit "Dhyan" and Pali "Zhan" as part of the transmission of Buddhism.

Thanks for clarifying the discussion points. "A+" :)

Regards,

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by joy chaudhuri
This import- export business and verbiage is full of pitfalls.
When something is discovered .......Part of the give and take of human history involves-
importing, exporting, sharing, borrowing..... adaptation and sinification of Sanskrit "Dhyan" and Pali "Zhan" as part of the transmission of Buddhism.


Joy,

My WC heigong is Tantric practice with HsuChi. LOL

[yuanfen]

Careful Hendrik- you might make Tara or Kwan Yin upset.
Hsu Chi may think that I was too relaxed in my hei gong.
Missed the tantra- shall I try the mantra?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Careful Hendrik- you might make Tara or Kwan Yin upset.
Hsu Chi may think that I was too relaxed in my hei gong.
Missed the tantra- shall I try the mantra?

You are right. I need to becarefull.
Ok Try Mantra.
OM relax relax Svaha.

[[Censored]]

Kwan Yin is a MAN, baby! :D

[yuanfen]

[Censored] sez:
Kwan Yin is a MAN, baby!
----------------------------------------------------
Not so. Sorry to disagree. The symbolic Indian roots are in the male bodhisattva
Avalokiteshwara. But in the transmission of Buddhism to China
there emerged the veneration of the female symbolism of kuan yin,
in Japan later the name became , also female, Kannon or Kwannon.

[loaddown]

It is quite disconcerting when history and religion became intense subjects of battle ground for contenting parties whose main interest is the furtherance of advantage in any areas of commerce, politics, nationalism, and racism. But despite good intentions everyone will eventually succumb and get embroiled in their argument at one time or another.

The Indian Buddhist god of mercy and compassion is indeed a male manifestation. I speculate that this could be due to a historical man that have been canonised or the Indian Buddhist male manifestation of mercy and compassion could be a amalgam of a number of aspects of Indian male gods that has to do with protection and justice. This could be so when Buddhism first developed in India and the new Buddhist movement found itself needing such a figure comparative with other Indian religions of the time.

However, Kwan Yin the goddess of mercy and compassion is more than just an import from India that has a sex change due to vagaries of events. Kwan Yin is recorded as actually based on a historical princess of a now non-existing little kingdom west or southwest of China. She in real life was supposed to have done many virtuous things. After her death She was venerated and eventually worshipped who became the goddess of mercy and compassion.

My conclusion is they are two seperate historical developed distinct personas who happenned to occcupy the same facet for the Buddhist need for mercy and compasssion. The outcome is India retains its original native male aspect whild China had acquired a new female replacement.

Wai-Sing Fung.

[loaddown]

An analogy could be there is one type of job vacancy. In India that job vacancy was filled by a local male who is born and brought up in India. In China the same job vacancy was filled by a different lass native close to China who was born and brought up there. Now such a situation is quite common in multinational companies. An example is where in India a male worker manages the regional head of the department of compassion and mercy. Over in China a female worker manages the regional head of the China department for compassion and mercy. The male and female workers are separate persons from their respective separate countries who were doing the same job in their respective separate countries that is all.

Wai-Sing Fung

[yuanfen]

It is quite disconcerting when history and religion became intense subjects of battle ground for contenting parties whose main interest is the furtherance of advantage in any areas of commerce, politics, nationalism, and racism. But despite good intentions everyone will eventually succumb and get embroiled in their argument at one time or another
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get a hold of your self. Dont lose your center.
Wow- You sure read in more than there is...commerce, politics, race, nationalism etc. no less.

kwon yin needs no defense, : she is fine. Censored thought she was he and I just pointed out that kwon yin was she- the other fella was a he. Buddhism is above race and nation in principle.
yuanfen

[[Censored]]

Above race and nation in principle, but not gender?
How can a speck of dust have a gender?

LOL, relax dudes. :)

[yuanfen]

Censored. True.
Compassion=Compassion

That was in the substructure of my point- perhaps should have elaborated. But elaboration sometimes makes things drag on more.

[bloodgod]

What i find interesting Chango is that the VTM believes that Chi sim and HFy are the "original "WC systems that all else are derived from. You mention that they are based on hei gung. Than why doesnt Koolo village records substantiate this? Wong wah boe didnt teach chi gung or hei gung in his WC system. So what did the red boat performers remove the hei gung? Seems unlikly that they would alter this "super: art. "Dr."Leung JAn taught it like he learned it, without hei gung. Of cource being a docter he could have added hei gung, but why add something that the creators didnt add? So LJ left WC as he learned it, without hei gung. I agree Shaolin is based on da-mo's internal training /hei gung. I dont agree that Wing chun came directly from Shaolin though. Where is the proof? I believe it came from fukien White Crane. I have laearned scared white crane weng chun from leung dai tze 8 years ago. Ging is much like Koolo ging. Koolo is tighter with there ging generation though. More compact and spiraly. But i can see how the white crane was evoleved. Its all in the bow. Sow hung> Why doesnt HFY have sow hung? Of cource it was influence by othere arts. Perhaps Hendriks ermei idea?

[loaddown]

Reference: yuanfen reply to [Censored]
‘[Censored] sez:
Kwan Yin is a MAN, baby!
----------------------------------------------------
Not so. Sorry to disagree. The symbolic Indian roots are in the male bodhisattva
Avalokiteshwara. But in the transmission of Buddhism to China
there emerged the veneration of the female symbolism of kuan yin,
in Japan later the name became , also female, Kannon or Kwannon.’


Hazarding the likelihood of certain rip-off, the prevailing thesis of the West is Kuan Yin having a direct origin from the saint Avolokiteshvara. No one has offered a detailed conceptualised counter argument to the contrary. I hereby do so.

The popular Western thesis of Kuan Yin evolved directly from Avolokiteshvara is very tenuous at best. There is no Buddhist cannon or folklore that tells of the fact that the Chinese Kuan Yin cannons, folklores, and myths had originated from the Indian Avolikiteshvara cannons, folklores, and myths. In fact both different collections of works do not mention the other deities. Both deities have different names and titles. Nevertheless I would call the Western hypothesis of the Kuan Yin having directly originated from Avolokiteshvara as The Derivative Origin Theory.

My counter argument can be termed as an antithesis to The Derivative Origin Theory of the West. This is where I postulate that the Kuan Yin corpus originated independently in absent of and unrelated to the Avolokiteshvara corpus. Some of the details of my arguments I have already stated in the above prior posts with the analogy and the example given. This antithesis of mine I would call The Equivalent Origin Theory. If need be I could developed a more detailed argument than what I have already given to show that Kuan Yin did not originated from Avolokiteshvara.

Wai-Sing Fung

P.S. Having gone through the thesis and the antithesis, I would look forward to a synthesis.

[[Censored]]

If need be? Need not be. This is a WC forum after all.

Personally, I find your theory no more plausible than one stating Avalokiteshwara IS Kwan Yin. But I am not a Buddhist, and the stakes are low, so feel free to continue.

Of course, if you want a scholarly theory to be taken seriously, you must include exact dates. :)

[Chango]

Hello BLoodGod,
First I would like to say that I personally have not handled the informations on the Koolo information presented to the VTM. Of course I only speak for myself. So let me say that I'm not one to take the liberty of saying one art has one thing or another. Unless I have the necessary information to do so. Now with that being said I must ask you the question as to where you draw the confidence to tell me what HFY has and does not have? I'm very interested in how much information and understanding that you have of HFY? But the question of how much of it is assumptions and conclusions swayed by your clear predjudice against the information offered? Again It is my opinion that your White crane verson seems to have a taste of "the rest of WCK history according to my own lineage or should I say one lineage approach." Now this gives rise to how I will address your question "Than why doesnt Koolo village records substantiate this?"These records that you speak of do represent the earliest body of information for WCK. It may be the case for your lineage but not for the entire WCK comunity. I'm asking you to step out side of that train of thought.
I cannot say at this point why Wong Wei Bo taught or did not teach some one on thing and someone else another.

BloodGod I think you should collect a little more information before you draw such conclusions. It is not a good Idea to speak for others lineage unless you have seen at least the general layout of the system. I can atleast say that I have seen a genral layout of the Koolo lineage. If you challenge that I will have to point you to my sources. I do admit I personally did go beyond the information offered by Robert Chu and Rene's book. (the complete Wing chun) I have also had some personal interaction with some of the information offered by Robert. Maybe when I go to the VTM today I will look over the koolo information and gain a better insight into it. Of course if have time. I like to spend most of my time training. If I get a set down moment I will see if I get a chance to tap into the VTM resources.

Chango (SGS) :D

[bloodgod]

What are you talking about? When you say " where do i draw the confidence to tell you what HFY does or doesnt have?" Ive never said HFY fhas or hasnt anything. You and the VTM have said what HFY has or doesnt have and my comment was based on your statement that HFY is based on hei gung traiing.
Whenb you say " it may be the case for your lineage but not for the entire WC community" -Ditto-right back at you. The VTM makes blanket statements that they try applying to all lineages. Such as Jeremy's comment that all WC that uses the 3 forms comes from HFY.
What i can say is who Leung jan learned from. And that his teacher (WWB) didnt teach hei gung or chi gung or tcm. I can also say what LJ did or didnt teach. Because of who my lineage came from i know exactly what WWB taught. We can also look at YKS and see what they have preserved. We can than compare the 2 and see what WWB (opera performer extrodinare ) passed on to Fok bo chun and Leung jan. We see the common denominator, yes-- but the VTm doesnt see this. They have made up there mind.
When i tried learning mo;re bout HFY i found that i couldnt find anything about it except from Garret Gee or the VTm. HFY is not in China. Why is this? Fut sao WC cant be found in China either. Of cource every other WC can be found in CHina . From Pao fa lien to Koolo to Chi shim weng chun to Ip man to YKS. I and others havenot even been able to find MR.Wong. And yes i and others have emailed the vtm and G Gee with no responce.
And i admit i learned more about the HFY system from Shultz than you assume. I have gone deeper than the almost non existant information supplied by the VTM SO it seems your assumption about what i do or dont know was incorrect.

[Hendrik]

May be someone has to do research seriously that when is the Chinese Starts to use the Term Hei Gong

Serious, In Wong Wah-Poh's time or Yik Kam's time did they called it Hei Gong? When did that term being created and used?
What did they called at that time?

Find it out
and then ask the question about
" What Kind of Chi Kung do different Branches of Wing Chun do?"

Otherwise, the ancestors might have no idea what the heck one is talking about. :D




On the other hand,
In Chinese, the is a term " Shear Wen" can be translated as " learn how to ask"

A while ago some one asked me about my WCK Family in a very "expert like " tone.

"– do you have no external hei gung training or only internal? "

When is there is such a term "external Hei Gung" training? How can Heigong be external??


In my understandaing, Today, There is hard and soft Hei Gung.
and , There is Nei (internal) Gong and Wai (external) Gong.

But what is External Hei Gung.



May be I am too old, don't know nothing and that I am no longer useful.

Or may be some "experts" has to "learn how to ask".:cool:

[Chango]

Hello bloodGod,

your words:
Ive never said HFY fhas or hasnt anything.



your words also:
Sow hung> Why doesnt HFY have sow hung? Of cource it was influence by othere arts.

I don't think any I need to say anything more about your last few post. It is clear you have no interest in fruitful discussion.

for those that have still have a open mind. I have to admit I'm amazed at how well the HFY System has been preserved over all of these years. Not to mention in the secret manor that it kept under wraps. I had to admit that I found it hard to except when I was first introduced to this system. However once I got more technical and historical information it was all clear. I think when alot of people see this information via the book it will be clear for them as well. I have found that alot of HFY practitioners are experienced WCK people that have seen what I see. In fact I had more then 10 years of WCK experience before I became a HFY member.


BloodGod - I grow tired of the bickering back and forth. At this point I find it best to agree to disagree. I know my lineage and I have first hand experiences with many others. So I have no issues or problems. I can see why you feel the way that you do. I can only hope that in time you will see why I feel the way I do. No I'm not saying that you have to agree. I'm just saying that I hope you see things clearer in the future. Your statement about "my assumption" of your knowlege has not been supported by the content of your post. So I have to maintain that you do not have enough information or you simply feel a need to attack my lineage. Either way it is a waste of my time addressing your attacks. I hope you gain more knowlege on this topic and come to a less aggressive position on the topic. I think once you understand more you will not feel the need to be aggressive. I my friend find comfort in the fact that I do have the knowlege of what I'am posting about. So I do not feel a need to attack or be aggresive.

Chango (SGS)

;)

[bloodgod]

Again-what are you talking about? Shultz told me that HFY doesnot use sow hung in the body shape. O.K so you are telling me he lied? Or that he is your junior and he simply doesnt know what he is talking about? even though he has his own school and you do not. You are defenesive no matter what anyone says. Look at your post. My statements about HFY are based on what you, jeremy and shultz have told me or said in general off line and on line and in person. No discusion with you is fruitfull because you are always right and "no one wants a real "with you, which is your excuse for not actually discusing anything.
If youy were tired of bickering- you wouldnt. You jump at the chance for combat-verbal or otherwise- of cource there is nothing wrong with combat.
Your assumption based on the content of my post is clearly illogical. Notice i made serious points and i said them in a polite tone. I did thes purposly so there could be real communication but you are not interested.
My assumption is you know nothing about Koolo WC. In fact Robert chus system is not Koolo proper since he put his own body structure into it. So the only other Koolo you have seen first hand is a watered down version from a student of sigung mui which i studeid for years before starting to learn the non watered variety so i hate to tell you but i think ive been exposed to more HFY than you have Koolo . Sorry i have an opinion that is other than yours
o.K chango i my beliefs based on fung family historical records is logical and i layed it out for you. Obviously if you can prove me wrong , than do so. If im wrong i want to know the truth but you will need historical documentation that proves that WWB and LJ and the Fungs are wrong or that the things i know "only" apply to Koolo WC to change my mind. But i am willing to listen to what The VTM knows. HFY is a good combat system, im not saying otherwise. But the historical claims are something else. So what Makes you believe that HFY /WC was originaly created as a hei gung trained system? And why does my families historical records say that chi gung was never part of WC? Why didnt LJ teach it?

[bloodgod]

Again VTm- no one wishes to answer my questions to discus this. Because the vtm doesnt have the answers to my questions. You make all the claims you want but when someone responds ,as jeremy has asked people do to in other posts--as he said when someone says something its up to them to validate it with proof by the correct documentation