Grappling and Wing Chun part 122

[red5angel]

Ok, Here is a question for all of you guys who like to discuss this whole dichotomy. Who here feels that things would be different between fights in the ring between grappling and Wing chun, and in the strreets in a life threatening situation. Or one of those mythical battles to the death!!!:p
I encountered some interesting issues when I was going over some stuff with my wrestling buddy this weekend but I will keep my mouth shut for now and see what people have to say. I expect to hear from Yenhoi and MP on this one!

[burnsypoo]

in the ring you'd see the YGKYM and techniques because too many people would complain and disown them if they didn't see "what represents wing chun".

in the street, you shouldn't see it.

[[Censored]]

in the ring you'd see the YGKYM and techniques because too many people would complain and disown them if they didn't see "what represents wing chun". in the street, you shouldn't see it.

Yeah, that's funny. Nobody expects a western boxer to bring their jump rope with them into the ring.

[red5angel]

Burnsypoo, why wouldnt you see it in the street?

[yenhoi]

Hrm.

Red5: you wouldent see the YGKYM on the street or ring because you dont fight from the SLT opening stance. Well, if you did, you wouldent be very high level or smart....

I think the largest difference is 1) no gloves on street (unless its winter and you have your mitts on, but then you probably have a bunch of encumbering clothing on as well.....) and 2) probably wont see much 'shooting' going on, although there is always a chance, and of course, you fight how you train....

MP had an interesting thread once upon a time where he possibly could have started the 'fight' while he was on the ground and both of his 'attackers' would be standing.

I dont see majikal biu jee eye strikes suddenly popping out of nowhere, or testicles being ripped off, but I suppose if a WC guy trained that way and had a quick wit, theres a possibility.

If its a self-defense situation, and you are fighting on the street, then the person, no matter if they are WC, MMA, a grappler, or some JKD wannabe (read:yenhoi), has already made some big mistakes. On the street you are attacked when the odds are neatly stacked against you - in the dark, no one else is around, by multiple attackers, with weapons, from behind, from multiple directions, with no escape. Predators on the street rarely will square up with you and issue a kung-fu style challenge, and most wont show you the knife until your gasping for breath.

If two stylists end up battling it out on the streets then something even more terribly wrong has occured. This is something that shouldent be imagined, but is. Why would two persons (the 'stylists') actively engaged in self-defense actually fight each other, thats just silly. So I dout in a self-defense orientated street situation you would find the MMA thug vs the WC hero.

'On the street' I cant imagine a able bodied person trained in martial arts sticking around and fighting longer then it takes to get out of harms way and run, unless there are other random factors, like, you have a family to defend, or girlfriend, la la la, extreme situations that you cant really draft a response to.

On a air plane very high in the sky, you probably wont see any shooting or sprawling, but standup grappling would be a must, as well as, being able to get close to your target quickly, through or over obstacles, and 'take them out' very quickly, either by striking, choking, or what have you.

Not sure exactly what the question was so I didnt really answer anything Im sure.

[red5angel]

Yenhoi - The question sort of goes along the lines of everones favorite Striking answer to sport fighting "I cant use everything I learned because it is too deadly." or some permutation there of.

As for opening stance, I beg to differ. I got burned on that question once because I wasnt thinking about it when I answered......

[yenhoi]

The question sort of goes along the lines of everones favorite Striking answer to sport fighting "I cant use everything I learned because it is too deadly." or some permutation there of.

--

Like I said, I dout that all of a sudden a person who trains on a regular basis will switch into street mode and go after the guys eyes and groin etc..... You fight how you train, so most likely the WC guy will deflect, straight punch, etc....... if his wits are up perhaps go into his secret deadly techniques, but not likely, and if he did, they would likely fail due to lack of training, and the fact that hes aiming for smaller places that are naturally well-protected by the body, and probably have extra protection in the form of hats, clothing, gloves, and natural reactions, not to mention if hes trained at all he will be looking to protect more vital areas.......

The MMA guy is probably going HKE (headbutt, knees, elbows) and run.

The good grappler will throw a standing rear naked choke or bear hug on the guy and call it a day. Alternatively, he will probably go HKE and run.

Smart people dont just jump at thier opponent and fall fighting to the ground. Smart people look around first, then jump at thier opponent...........................

[yenhoi]

First, I hope we are talking about the same thing, the pigeon toed stance, that you stand in the entire slt.........

how can you fight from that? how do you even move maintaining that stance?

VT tapes call the VT fighting stance the 'sideling' or 'sidelong' or something or other, which is basically the stance from the Chum Kil when you turn your waist to face either side, with most of your weight on your rear foot.. Some WC lineages use 50/50 weighting, but still the same stance.

I could see you arguing that that is how you would begin once you knew there was something goin' down, because all your drills etc originate from the YGKYM, but you would be 'out of it' as soon as you moved one of your feet to engage, and probably would not return to it, move while in it, or throw weapons or defend from it.

[red5angel]

Hmmm, I might have to disagree with you on the you train how you fight thing. So far I have seen quite a bit of lethal type training doen by our higher level guys. Of course they arent killing each other but you get my point.

As for the stance, EBMAS also calls it the training stance, but you know how much I love the way they train anyway.....
You sort of have to look at it like the bong sau, always moving never pausing, and of course you dont "stand" around in YGKYM, you probably shouldnt be just "standing" around anyway, I wouldnt say that was definitely how you began but I imagine there could be circumstances.......

[reneritchie]

> how can you fight from that? how do you even move maintaining that stance?


1) how do you run when lying down?
2) if you can't, do you never lie down again?

The answer to this, therein WCK lies...



RR

[yenhoi]

If the higher level guys at your school actually train those 'deadly' techniques/attacks, then they will have a much better chance of actually using those things come a real encounter. Most kung fu places do not train they way they want you to think they fight.

So-called 'deadly' techniques/attacks etc can be safely trained, most martial arts have been doing it for hundreds of years.

I agree with you on the SLT stance, since all of the stance work in WC is just the SLT stance 'MODIFIED' or whatever you want to call it, but you probably wont elect to stand in front or to the side or even behind your opponent and attempt to engage in the exact SLT stance, in order to generate real power and be mobile you will need to 'be in' some sort of 'modified' position.

The chum kil, biu jee, mook jong, and knife forms teach you alot about footwork, stance 'modification', etc. So you can maintain your 'SLT stance' but still be mobile, defensive, and capable of generating real power.

[red5angel]

Yenhoi, exactly, on all counts!

[burnsypoo]

IMO, it's a comparison of intent, not of technique.
too mean, too fast, too small.

[anerlich]

I can't really see the relevance of the question. Like a WC guy and a grappler going in a death match. Unless one or both are morons (not a complete impossibility I grant you, reading some posts on this forum providing clear evidence) it ain't going to happen.

About as much relevance as asking whether Bruce Lee, if he was alive, would beat Muhammad Ali if he wasn't sick. Or if Attila the Hun would beat Genghis Khan.

What if both guys cross train? What if the WC guy has done WC for less than a year and the grappler's been going for ten years and has an Olympic Gold Medal? Or v-v?

If WC is "so deadly", why were not the rooftops of HK covered in corpses? Why are not the high-level exponents who claim X hundred successful streetfights against all comers not in jail doing hard time for multiple GBH and manslaughter?

I practice deadly techniques. But with a practice combat folder.

John Will's quote in my .sig is relevant here IMO.

[anerlich]

BTW, r5a, Emin actually supports a lot of your propositions in this regard. He claims never to have had to go to ground in his claimed 300+ streetfights.

While this is his word alone, you might want to consider that the guy actually has some experience and can back up at least some of what he says. Unlike some.

[teazer]

but you would be 'out of it' as soon as you moved one of your feet to engage, and probably would not return to it, move while in it, or throw weapons or defend from it.

in order, agree..disagree...agree...disagree. But it's transitional and situation specific, so 'probably' is about as definite as I'd be.
But wherever you go, you can always clamp your goat ;)

[Merryprankster]

Two words:

No mat.

You'd better know how to "countergrapple." Asphalt is bad for your skull at several miles an hour.

Other than that, the most competent wins. By winning, I mean staying alive and leaving as expeditiously as possible.

And Yenhoi--yeah--I was changing a woman's tire for her because she didn't know how when two thugs rolled up after trying to hit on my girlfriend. My back was turned because I thought they had driven out of the gas station--turns out they were just coming back in a different entrance. I was on the ground with a small tire iron with two guys in a car. Could have been hairy, but I had a basic plan outlined that I think I might have possibly perhaps been able to pull off--especially since I know my girlfriend would have commenced to trying to F the opposition up as well.

[red5angel]

Anerlich, irrelevant or not, its a discussion so we discuss. As for Boztepe, Why would the guy have been in 300 fights? And on top of that, he sure does look pretty for being in 300 fights, or is he just that good? :rolleyes:

[AndrewS]

Red,

I'll tell sifu you think he's pretty when he makes it back from Europe. Compliments are always appreciated.

The slight saddleback in the nose, old scars perpendicular to the bones of the forearms, pattern of little dots of scar over one shoulder just add character. . . and some interesting stories when out having a beer.

Later,

Andrew