Authenticity

[WushuSpear]

Authenticity

It's amazing that when any descussion is held on shaolin wushu, the authenticity of it's most famous practitioners is questioned. The question arises, are there still shaolin martial monks in existance today?

Now, since my introduction to this topic, I've changed my mind a couple times but currently think it's not a yes or no question. Firstly let us break it down.

Shaolin- Martial- Monk

Shaolin suggests that they'd have to belong to the shaolin temple and fall under it's authority.

Martial suggest that they would actively train in martial arts. History states that over the history of the temple, many styles were created in the temple however others werre incorporated into the curriculm due their effectiveness. So to me, modern monks studying some traditionally non-shaolin diciplines, is nothing new.

Monk is the difficult one and I do not pretend to be a buddist or even knowledgable in buddist dogma. That said, it is my understanding that buddist monks are required to follow the following rules:

chastity
no meat
poverty
No booze

Now Shaolin is not a simply case due to some decree by some Emperor granting the monks the right to drink and eat meat. It seems that today that some, if not most martial monks do partake according to Russbo's journals. Anyways, my deepest concern is that as a monk, surely you are giving yourself to the temple and owning a business would not be allowed. A lot of monks have opened schools, business, and make profit from these schools. How is this allowed? I'd understand if they stopped being monks and decided to open a school, but to be an active monk and have a business doesn't sound koser IMHO.

China today is a place of great contrasts and in many ways is a parodox. Shaolin is an interesting topic which requires an lot of digging in order to get a better understanding. I think the abbot's plans to move the temple closer to it's buddist roots are a wise move.

In conclusion, the temple has survived 1500 years and in that time I'm sure there were times when it seemed that it was at it's lowest ebb. Maybe in a hundred years, this period will be seen as one of the temple's renovations.

Hoping for some constructive debate
WushuSpear

[HuangKaiVun]

As far as chastity goes, we all realize that utter chastity would result in the demise of the entire human race within one generation.

In fact, the Shaolin realized that themselves centuries ago. Married monks were a reality then.

No meat? Granted great health can be achieved via vegetarian diet, but not all are PHYSIOLOGICALLY capable of withstanding this routine. The Dalai Lama himself has been placed back on a meat diet on the order of his physicians. Various people of nonChinese races (e.g. Eskimos, North Europeans) do not do well without meat. And why would human beings have digestive biology designed specifically to reduce huge chunks of meat to its basic elements?

Besides, vegetables are "alive" too.

Poverty? Since when did poverty become something that humans should aspire to? Shaolin Temple has historically enjoyed the beneficence of the Chinese government and the people of Henan province. If it wasn't so well funded, it could not have become what it became: a bastion of Buddhism. And why does being poor beat being rich? When did Ch'an decree this?

No booze? I personally do not drink alcohol myself (lack the enzymes and tolerance), but many people do. And they don't go around hurting the world.


In short, I as a PRACTICING Buddhist think those 4 manmade "rules" are BALONEY.

I don't see why a Shaolin monk shouldn't be allowed to marry, eat meat, earn $$$ from helping people, and drink on occasion if he wishes to.

[Brad]

I used to be a pretty entrenched in the "all the shaolin monks are fake" camp, but then I realized... "hey, I'm not a Buddhist!" So I decided whether they're good buddhists or not doesn't concern me one bit :D I decided to hold them to standards I myself couldn't meet would be wrong, no matter what religious order they belong to.

My opinion now is, if they went to the Shaolin Temple took monks vows and were officialy accepted as monks then they're monks until they resign or the abbot kicks em out. They're monkness has nothing to do with how good their kungfu is and vice versa.

[harry_the_monk]

I think that a lot of people can get caught up in believing that Buddhists, monks and lay-people, are what they would like to imagine them to be.

While some who have taken refuge in the Buddha can live very ascetic lives, the Buddha was an advocate of the Middle Way. I have friends who used to be monks, who tend to not follow the Eightfold Path at the moment. They still aspire to reach enlightenment, but in their own way. I on the other hand can be quite strict with myself. I have been celibate for almost two years, do not take intoxicants, am a vegetarian, and don't really have many posessions. I will not go into the reasons of why it is proper for me to live my life this way, but just be happy that it is.

Everyone has to live in the way in which they believe is the Right way, as long as they cause no harm to other living beings.

I train with Shaolin Monks, and will one day be a monk myself... Not of shaolin, but of my own sect. I go to learn gong-fu, not buddhism. If you want to learn buddhism, find a buddhist temple, there are many around. Please do not be upset though with certain Shaolin monks who do not live up to your expectations though. We are all human beings and not perfect.....yet:D