Good fighters... well fight.

[jon]

I decided to have a bit of a rant about a bunch of stuff ive been mulling over in my mind about the current state of Chinese martial arts and there combat viablity.
Ive done a lot of reading and a lot of talking to my sifu who has defended himself against armed mulitple attackers and still come out on top.
I have also been reading interviews and texts about the various famous masters whom we all list off with pride as being our accestors but there is something i CANT get around.
All of the ones who where well known and higher level all actualy used there arts. They where not in some pepetual state of 'art' they where many of them simply fighters who's art advanced out of experience and necessity. None of these men rested on there laurals, all of them where willing to learn new things. All of them where considered pioneers and free thinkers who moved there art forward in new directions.
Now here comes the nasty part, most of the ones who were really good trained the way they wished to fight.
I read a lot of stuff about Yang style Tai Chi for example and found that while in the hands of Yang Lu Chan and his son it was always kept behind closed doors, not performed slowly, and was a fighters hand in the true sence of the word. Forms where a by product the main form of training was simply getting dirty and actualy getting it on. Think about it if your JOB is fighting as a bodygaurd you HAVE to be good, hence you get a bunch of other skilled artists together and you all compare notes and basicaly get down to buisness finding out exactly what works and why.

Now flash forward a couple of hundred years. MANY of us ( i certainly dont mean all) are blindly following on with what we THINK works and are TOLD has been used. Many dont spar and if they do they dont do it in such a fashion that it will properly benifit. The movements are all exectued well but what difference does it make when you have no idea why they where made that way in the first place.
Then the worst part about all of this is when someone else comes along and does things a different way and has some success these same people are usualy the first to cast harsh judgements.

What im trying to say is our heros spent there days in small rooms with a bunch of other guys getting bruised battered and then finaly finding a way to avoid it happening so badly next time. THESE people where the true fighters, how many of us can truely say we train that way now?

This is also where i take my hat off to the new reality crowd who although may not be from the same school of thought can truely say they DO train in this way. The problem with traditional arts is not that the techniques are useless its that the training method for them is NOT traditional. Many learn traditional techniques with a fast food training mentality and this defeats the purpose. I will put my money on a half trained boxer with some good experience who knows his or her strenghts and weakness over video taped trained 'master' of the deadlist fighting art known to man.

If one thing has not changed over the many years its the plain fact you get good at what you train at. If your focuss is forms and flashy looking jump kicks then you can expect to do them with the best. However you will still suck in combat vs someone who has made there express focuss how to avoid having there ass handed to them.

I love my CMA but im SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sick of hearing people go on about how special and fabulous it is. Most cma practioners would make fabulous dancers and terrible fighters. Half are so caught up in why they dont have to fight they have forgotten how there 'art' was invented in the first place.

This is a sentiment ive heard often from posters like MA Fanatic but everytime someone talks about there masters master who killed a man with a slap of his hand my eyes roll back in my head:rolleyes: When it comes down to it who cares what your great uncles bob could do, what can YOU do?

Rant over, back to Tai Chi:D

[diego]

funny you mentioned that i just read in the taichi classics that yang hated the ching imperial gaurd and taught them what we now see as slow tai chi..wheras he didnt do it like that and he only taught his two sons and they wouldnt teach thier daughters because they would lose thier heads if it got out of the family yang taught the chings incorrect...but then it said if yang didnt teach them tai chi and these bourgie princes didnt do the dance taichi prolly would have died with industrialization!.

i just gleamed over this this morning and was going to make a post if it is true so its curious you posted this as i forgot, but i know thier has always been tofu legs and embroidery arms in kungfu, uno that corny prince thining he is maximus but the ****er may aswell have his underwear on over his tights:eek:

off to bed for me, do you know if its true yang taught the ching false?.

[Ralek]

BJJ, Wrestling, Muay thai.

This is the holy trinity of fighting styles.

San shou incorporates 2 of these styles, Wrestling and muay thai.

MMA incorporates all 3 of these styels.

Actually i think that training by sparring is not traditinal kung fu. I think the problem is that kung fu was not really deveolped for fighting. The reason kung fu people do forms is becuase it is actaully a traditional chinese folk dance that has been confused as a fighting art. The chinese have recently discovered this and are now practicing wrestling and Muay thai in san shou.

[friday]

Hi Jon,

i guess CMA who claim they are great at kung fu and constantly referring to how good their so and so ancestors are at fighting and do not engage in applying their techniques are the ppl you have your main problem with.

personally i dont really mind ppl who train for trainings sake. who do it for fitness, health etc and aren't really all that interested in the fighting side of kung fu and are realistic with what they are getting from kung fu training.

another thing is sometimes smaller kwoons can't really afford the insurance required to be able to adopt this kind of training.

i do understand how u feel tho' :)

im meeting up with ka and his friend tomorrow to get some takedowns and stuff demoed on me woohoo ;)
will be very inetresting how r u going btw

[Ralek]

Just do what people did before insurance was invented.

[Merryprankster]

I will put my money on a half trained boxer with some good experience who knows his or her strenghts and weakness over video taped trained 'master' of the deadlist fighting art known to man.

Interesting comment--experience is the mother of skill in this case. I know my boxing coach would never let a 0-0 guy step in against a guy who is 1-6

[fa_jing]

I think that if you want to criticize CMA, you could say that it is overly ambitious for the amount of time most people are willing to devote, that are in the target group of amatuer practioners. It really takes several years and bruises before you can really use the CMA jings and structure correctly in a fight. So I think every style should have a simple version of itself, to get people sparring and up to speed. One technique we employ, is to concentrate on just 1 or 2 moves per round and try to get that working, before you move on to the next thing. And as my teacher emphasizes over and over, you need to develop your most basic techniques. This cannot be over-emphasized - the basic techniques are what is going to win you the fight 90% of the time. The quality of CMA took an unfortunate dip with the cultural revolution. Then, modernization of society did away with the more brutal training methods. Back in the day, broken bones, etc, were a necessity of training. Now that our lives no longer depend on the study of MA, the risk/benefit ration is considerably different. The only solution is modernization of training methods - GLOVES, pads, bags, etc. Then, you think about where to get that indispensable combative experience - why, sportfighting of course! Anyone can do what Bruce Lee did, there were modernizers and tinkerers before him, and there continue to be the same kind of people afterwards and going forwards. He just popularized and gave a face to the concept. Really, we don't owe a huge intellectual debt to him. It is up to the individual to discern what works for him and what needs to be improved. That said, anyone who has martial art experience and observes components of traditional CMA, will find a practically inexhaustable wealth of technique, strategy, knowledge of structure of the body, etc. Every time I learn about a CMA style, not just watch somebody waving their hands in the air, but actually feel and understand a way a movement and/or attack, I say to myself: "Genius, pure genius!" Because that's what it is.

[HuangKaiVun]

Actually, we DO owe a huge intellectual debt to what Lee did.

He made it clear on a worldwide media scale that kung fu was for FIGHTING, not demonstration.

In fact, old school traditional kung fu trained as Lee did: sparring, conditioning, reflexes. This is how I learned my traditional stuff, and that's how I teach it.

Ralek's talk is fine for the MMA ring, but outside it things are DIFFERENT. He'd FIND OUT against someone like ME.


On the other hand, jon, you'll understand that when one has to fight then he HAS TO fight.

At least when you have to fight, be PREPARED.

[Ralek]

HuangKaiVun. I don't think you understand. There is a reason why san shou uses the techniques of muay thai and wrestling. There is a reason that it doesn't use kung fu.


If it works in the MMA cage then it will work in the street. Different MMA tournaments have different rules. Some MMA tournments in brazil have no rules and youa re allowed to bite and eyegouge. The only think that keeps it from being a streetfight is the fact that it's not on "a street".

Kung fu has failed. It never worked. And now with the advent of san shou, kung fu has truly died and muay thai, wrestling, TKD have taken over the chinese martial arts.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Either Ralek is catching "the correct", or I'm catching "the Ralek".


Either way he's starting to sound reasonable...;)

[rogue]

There is a reason why san shou uses the techniques of muay thai and wrestling. Ralek, why do you think they're using Muay Thai? In TKD we have a kicking surface called Jong Kwaeng i that is used in close range front snap kicks and roundhouse kicks. You know it better as the shin. We also use roundhouse knees, thrusting knees, elbows and just about any technique that Muay Thai has. But it's not muay thai. Just because I use techniques that are shared between my style and another doesn't mean that I'm doing the other style. So just because a San Shou guy is does something that looks like muay thai doesn't mean that he's using muay thai.

[Liokault]

Ok cutting through all of the idiot raleks troll atempt for the time being i think that to be good at fighting you need to not only train to fight but to fight as well. Now this can be street fighting...after lots of street fights you will be good at street fighting or in a boxing ring with boxing golves on...after a lot of this your going to be good at boxing.

The teacher of my teacher (our last link back to hong kong) was a regular fighter and i have heard many storys about his challange matches with other styles of martial arts as well as street fighters. He put his Tai Chi to good regular use as a debt collector (if an independent friend from hong kong is correct) fighting and ofton not being a nice guy!!! I think that is why our style of Tai Chi still holds its fighting back ground.


ok back to ralek


I got to say that BJJ is crap for street fighting!!!!

Any art that asks you to fall to the floor with your oponent is going to get you a good beating when you inevitably find your oponents friend kicking you in the head as you go for an arm bar.

Ok ok BJJ is not just about ground fighting but then maybe boxers would do ok with out punching or TKD would do great with out flash kicks!!!!!

Ok BJJ works in the octogon but you go up against 2 guys and you want sudenly to be able to fight at a distance.........same goes for a knife


Above all MMA and san shou and BJJ are sport not street self defense!!!

[Aramus]

Pay trolls no mind, ignore their comments, using the ignore function is great. You will not change their mind, it will not change their responses.

Peace.:D

[LEGEND]

LOL...there has plenty of instances where two guys get into a fight and one guy takes the other down and pounds the hell out of a guy to death or KO( Hockey dad fights for ex ). BJJ is about taking someone out of his element and putting him into yours...go to www.streetbrawl.com and u can see numerous displays of real fights that have hit the ground! To say that u can remain standing to fight is laughable especially if u're up against a stronger person.

[SevenStar]

Any art that asks you to fall to the floor with your oponent is going to get you a good beating when you inevitably find your oponents friend kicking you in the head as you go for an arm bar.

What happens when you are unwillingly taken to the ground? Don't you want to know how to efficiently get back up? also, using an armbar is no different than a cma using chin na - it doesn't take much to snap an arm. Remember, for real you aren't trying to make someone tap. you don't stay on the ground and look for the armbar either, but if the opportunity presents itself, snap the arm and move on.

Ok ok BJJ is not just about ground fighting but then maybe boxers would do ok with out punching or TKD would do great with out flash kicks!!!!!

actually, many bjj classes do self defense drills and may also have some form of stand up training, like judo.

Ok BJJ works in the octogon but you go up against 2 guys and you want sudenly to be able to fight at a distance.........same goes for a knife

If someone has a knife and we are on the ground, he movement is limited and easier to control. Of course I don't want to go to the ground, as I'd rather run away, but hope isn't lost if you end up on the ground


Above all MMA and san shou and BJJ are sport not street self defense!!!

[b]in the street, my money would on the avg sport fighter as opposed to the avg tma. sport training in general is usually more aggressive and has a smaller learning curve. you can become proficient fairly quickly. also, have you noticed that sport fighting seems to attract people that like to work out and train hard? Of course there are many tma that train hard as crap, but from my experience, the avg tma doesn't train anywhere near as hard as the avg. sport fighter, as the sport fighter is training to compete. he has more at stake in the short term than someone who doesn't compete.

[eulerfan]

Back when people trained by really fighting each other, there weren't guns and fights were generally deadly.

Now, I might be attacked. Somebody could try to rape me. It's always a possibility. That probably won't happen, knock on wood.

The guys in the class haven't seen a real fight since they were young and full of...ahem...anyhoo.

I work-out anyway. The showy kicks are lots of fun and that makes me go back to the kwoon where I also learn how to throw a solid punch. And maybe, because of sparring, I'll be better able to keep my head were I actually attacked.

When people say that their art is the deadliest or the purest or the most hard core I always have to wonder....."What kind of apocalyptic society, bereft of technology, are you living in that you need to know the deadliest martial art in the world? I mean, if bar brawls are that big a concern for you, you might want to find some new bars."

[SevenStar]

1. marketing - knowing the deadliest style can be good for business

2. reassurance if you ever do get attacked...even though it may be a false reassurance in some cases...

[fa_jing]

SevenStar = If the street situation you are talking about is a sportfighter VS. a TMA, then bet on the sportfighter (of course there are exceptions). But if the street situation is between a martial artist and any other type of assailant, bet on the TMA guy. I mean, if you box, does that mean you can handle a man with a knife? A sportfighter *may* do ZERO situational awareness (I know I don't do any). The fact is, TMA is directed towards a greater variety of situations.
Or when you think about it, the best self-defense arts are aimed towards that, maybe something like Aikido or Hapkido. And the arts that are for the battlefields are for the battlefield, and some arts probably mean to muscle your way around the village and take part in brawls. Some arose out of clan wars. Some were founded on philosophical principles, then morphed into effective fighting arts.

[Water Dragon]

What about the TMA guy who sees sportfighting as a necesary part of a well rounded syllabus and nothing more or less than that?

[SevenStar]

sure the TMA does more situational stuff BUT how intensely and how well is it ingrained? how hard does he work at it? is he at a school where the drills are realistic? what level of contact do they use? If contact is soft do they ever go hard? If it's a tma that trains hard and realistically, I'm all for it. if it's one that does not, my money is still on the sport fighter - or the tma that WD mentioned.

[straight blast]

Many dont spar and if they do they dont do it in such a fashion that it will properly benifit. The movements are all exectued well but what difference does it make when you have no idea why they where made that way in the first place.

I couldn't agree more. I posted something similar on the WC board and was immediately told by the "experts" :rolleyes: how unneccesary sparring was, that Chi sao was the be all and end all, etc.

Oh well. Maybe one day they'll find out ;) I for one found that surfing was much harder to do than to talk about, or pretend to do. I wonder if a parallel can be drawn?

[Chang Style Novice]

jon, jon, jon, jon, jon...in English we normally put the adverb AFTER the verb.

Good fighters fight WELL.

:p

sincerely,
Grammar Style Novice.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
jon, jon, jon, jon, jon...in English we normally put the adverb AFTER the verb.

Good fighters fight WELL.

:p

sincerely,
Grammar Style Novice.

What would an American know about speaking English? Don't you guys speak American? :D

[Chang Style Novice]

Speakin' in Merkin was good enough fer Jesus, so it's good enough fer me!

[Water Dragon]

I took it as Good fighters, well (they) fight. Yes there's a fragment in there but so what :D

[Chang Style Novice]

Hey, I said :p , didn't I?

[MightyB]

So this guy was at a bar. He was a tough guy, been in a lot of fights, you know, a good ol' boy. He starts messin' with the wait staff and being a general pain in the arse to all the patrons. So's a bouncer walks up to the guy to pursuade 'im to leave. The guy figures he's the biggest and baddest guy on the planet so he doesn't want to leave. As a matta'o'fact the guy decides he wants to fight the bouncer. Wham bam smack bam the guy hits the ground. The bouncer didn't even throw a punch cuz the other three bouncers already had 'im down.

The moral of the story is: fighting multiple opponents and having any success is a myth.

Here's a koan for ya: What would I do if I was fighting two of myself?


-----

Ralek is my hero

:)

[ewallace]

Here's a koan for ya: What would I do if I was fighting two of myself?
I'd be wondering why the hell my momma didn't tell me that I had two other brothers.

[Ralek]

"Piiiii kaaaaaa CHUUU!!!!!" -- Pikachu

[MightyB]

Didn't anybody here read Bruce Lee's plagiarized version of Musoshi's "Book of Five Rings"? You know, "Tao of Jeet Kune Do", ok, it's not a direct plagiarism because he added some of Yagyu's "Family Traditions" and mixed and matched some bits of philosophy with how-to pics.

Anyway, fightin' is fightin'. How did it go? "Unless somebody has 5 arms and 8 legs, then how can they fight different?" or whatever.

A kick that works looks like a kick that works, same goes for a throw, or a joint lock...

San Shou isn't wrestling, mixed with thai, mixed with... it's San Shou.

You people bore me. Jon, you're on to something. Stick with it and see where it goes.

Most Martial artists are like ostriches sticking their heads in the sand. The ignore function facilitates that. Let's ignore everybody who doesn't agree with us and live in a perpetual fantasy world. Oh yeah, we must never, I mean NEVER, fight. cuz our techniques are too deadly. Besides, all that other stuff is just sport fightin'. BELIEVE THE LIE!

[CD Lee]

Legend said


To say that u can remain standing to fight is laughable especially if u're up
against a stronger person.


This is true sometimes, but it is laughable that actually directed us to this link after saying that.

I downloaded all five clips. Only one out of the five had both people taking the fight to the ground, and that was the two women.

All the other four fights had somebody go down alone after taking a punch to the face. Those were stand up fights dude. Whats up with that?

Also, pretty crappy fighting eh?

[ewallace]

Your missing the whole concept of ground figthing CD Lee. It's entirely for the non violent assult-less submission of women on a rampage. For the male it is simply a matter of taking her to the ground with out striking her, and manuvering for the right position to engage in make-up sex.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by SevenStar
2. reassurance if you ever do get attacked...even though it may be a false reassurance in some cases...

Actually, I take a tai chi class separate from my 'kung-fu' class. The teacher and I were talking one day about the 'kung-fu' class, what I thought about it, how the class was sturctured, stuff like that. He was just curious about what other people were doing.

I said, "You know, now that I've been there for over a year, I've noticed that, metaphorically speaking, I'm a bit more willing to walk down those dark alleys. And I can't ignore that this confidence is probably false. I am beginning to worry that my training may be doing me more harm than good."

He said, "No, I wouldn't worry. Confidence, false or true, will act as a deterrant to attacks. If you're walking down the street with your head held high like you can take care of business, the 'guy in the alley' will wait for the next girl. Not that he'd be afraid you might beat him up. But he'll probably figure you'll be a big headache, struggling and scratching and slapping and stuff."

[HuangKaiVun]

When I go to Maryland one day, Ralek, we'll cross hands.

You'll find out if kung fu works or not.

[yenhoi]

HuangKaiVun is sure in a hurry to fight people he meets on the net. Almost as dangerous as dating over the net, cept he is looking for violence.... beats me.

[Dark Knight]

Oh yeah, we must never, I mean NEVER, fight. cuz our techniques are too deadly. Besides, all that other stuff is just sport fightin'. BELIEVE THE LIE!



Do not speak the truth here

[HuangKaiVun]

Almost, yenhoi.

"Cross Hands" does not necessarily mean "fight".

It simply means "show your stuff" in a polite encounter. At least that's the way it is done in China.

In fact, one is EXPECTED to walk away from "cross hands". The two practitioners then go out on the town and do something FUN afterwards.

I am eager to meet people in the martial arts - for better or for worse. Thus far, it has always resulted in BETTER for all parties involved.

Ralek, you'll pick the bar to hang out at afterwards. I don't know anything about Maryland.

[yenhoi]

HKV: yeah, sorry. I was kinda trolling.............. neways, looked like you were winding up with ralek cause earlier you said something about teaching him how a kung fu guy fights......

Did you ever answer me about being taught by you? Long lost thread..

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by eulerfan


Actually, I take a tai chi class separate from my 'kung-fu' class. The teacher and I were talking one day about the 'kung-fu' class, what I thought about it, how the class was sturctured, stuff like that. He was just curious about what other people were doing.

I said, "You know, now that I've been there for over a year, I've noticed that, metaphorically speaking, I'm a bit more willing to walk down those dark alleys. And I can't ignore that this confidence is probably false. I am beginning to worry that my training may be doing me more harm than good."

He said, "No, I wouldn't worry. Confidence, false or true, will act as a deterrant to attacks. If you're walking down the street with your head held high like you can take care of business, the 'guy in the alley' will wait for the next girl. Not that he'd be afraid you might beat him up. But he'll probably figure you'll be a big headache, struggling and scratching and slapping and stuff."

I agree with that, to an extent. confidence doesn't ALWAYS act as a deterrant, especially if there's more than one assailant involved. If it doesn't and the person getting attacked has not properly learned how to defend himself with his art, then he may be a goner.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by LEGEND
LOL...there has plenty of instances where two guys get into a fight and one guy takes the other down and pounds the hell out of a guy to death or KO( Hockey dad fights for ex ). BJJ is about taking someone out of his element and putting him into yours...go to www.streetbrawl.com and u can see numerous displays of real fights that have hit the ground! To say that u can remain standing to fight is laughable especially if u're up against a stronger person.

Were those all girls fighting? Not a one of 'em could squab' to save their souls. Yeah some people fell to the ground, but they have never trained for balance and such. They were probably drunk f a g s and hos. I'd beat all of them at once for sure. You did notice that striking played a big role in their fights going to the ground. You kids just need to shut your traps and listen so you can learn, or don't, whatever. It doesn't make me ignorantly hopeful that one day I'll know how to REALLY fight.

Do MMA sh i t. It just makes the real fighters that much more confident that no one will ever truly get it. Gots a leg up on suckers.... What people like me know WILL hurt you and make you become a Tibetan monk if you decided to use your sport OR street, superficial stuff on me.

Ralek I've trained GJJ (under Caique and my friend Ryron) and Shorin. One is a fun sport that didn't teach me anything I didn't already know, and one made me able to hang with Purple belts and submit many, when I was a white. I know more about these reality things than you. You do what you like, but that doesn't mean you could ever capture a clue...

BTW TKD? Get the f u c k outta here! Thai Boxing and sloppy San Shou--- Give me friggin' break! Hyper-hard, spastic kickboxing where you train 24-7 365? I could make up my own ring sport and train like that for 1 year and be virtually invincible. Most of us ain't got to prove s h i t, we done lived it for real outside the ring or octagon.. speaking of--

I'm Octa-Gone in the wind with the pollen!!!

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by omegapoint


One is a fun sport that didn't teach me anything I didn't already know, and one made me able to hang with Purple belts and submit many, when I was a white. I know more about these reality things than you.

Where in the he!! do these guys come from?

:rolleyes:

[HuangKaiVun]

yenhoi, I'd love for us to meet up and TEACH EACH OTHER.

You're in Reno, huh?

I've got some acquaintances in that town.

Once I get myself more situated here in Phoenix, I'll definitely seek you out for food, fun, and fu.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by SevenStar


I agree with that, to an extent. confidence doesn't ALWAYS act as a deterrant, especially if there's more than one assailant involved. If it doesn't and the person getting attacked has not properly learned how to defend himself with his art, then he may be a goner.

Well, now, that's a little disingenuous.

Properly learning how to defend yourself with your art won't ALWAYS prevent you from being a goner, especially if the assailant is heavily armed.

Worst case scenarios are a dime a dozen.;)

[Ralek]

Omegapoint. Can you please describe to me how to do an omoplata? How do you do a scissor sweep from the guard. I'm just checking to see if you really do know BJJ. How do you do a clock choke? How do you pass the guard? It sounds like your lying.

HuangKaiVun. When can you come to maryland? Are you waiting for a day when you just happen to have buisness in maryland or are you going to come specifically to fight me? I am invincible. I am an undefeated champion and you have no way or chance.

[rogue]

Originally posted by Ralek
[B]Omegapoint.
1) Can you please describe to me how to do an omoplata?
2) How do you do a scissor sweep from the guard. I'm just checking to see if you really do know BJJ.
3)How do you do a clock choke?
4)How do you pass the guard? It sounds like your lying.
Ralek look in your copy of Brazillian Jiu-jitsu, Theory and Technique on
1) Pages 158-159
2) On page 64-65.
4) Page 62.
This way you'll know what OP is talking about.

[HuangKaiVun]

Since you won't come to Phoenix, Ralek, I'll have to make a big trip.

Before you accuse me of cowardice, realize that I have to straighten some things out over here first.

Also, Ralek, WHERE do we go to food afterwards?

[Ralek]

HuangKaiVun. What style are you? For your own sake i hope it's not kung fu because the style does not work in real fights. I've KO'd a tajiquan instructor with left hook. His legs just collapsed. but i stopped and showed mercy after he collapsed and helped him up. What a loser.

[Xebsball]

Ralek, i wanna pee on your mouth, you dirty *******.

[NorthernMantis]

lol calmdown Xebs the guy wimped out on like 7 or 8 guys already. The guy is harmeless as a fly although really anoying. Remember how after that fight that never happened with that southern mantis guy/girl Ralek dissapeared for along while since everyone laughed at him?

hehe some troll of all trolls that he wanted to be. Ralek is plain anoying. Now tkd man, that guy really knew how to stirr things up. lol Memories....

[Xebsball]

sure NMAntis :D

I just enjoyed too much posting this semi-GDA + semi-pr0n post :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by eulerfan


Well, now, that's a little disingenuous.

Properly learning how to defend yourself with your art won't ALWAYS prevent you from being a goner, especially if the assailant is heavily armed.

Worst case scenarios are a dime a dozen.;)

exactly! That's why you train for them. I prefer to train as if EVERY possible assailant will attack me and not be deterred by my physical size and my confidence. I prefer to train as if EVERY person I come against is bigger, faster and badder than me. I prefer to train as if EVERY assailant is the crazed psycho who wants to kill me for sheer pleasure. by always training for the worst, lesser conditions hopefully won't be as bad. Plus, it helps me to advance more. Also, I train how to run :)

if you don't train for those situations and yet still have the confidence that you can defend yourself (as with the person I referred to before with the false sense of confidence) then when that confidence fails as a first line of defense, you won't have a second to fall back on.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Ralek
Omegapoint. Can you please describe to me how to do an omoplata? How do you do a scissor sweep from the guard. I'm just checking to see if you really do know BJJ. How do you do a clock choke? How do you pass the guard? It sounds like your lying.



First off: Omoplata- Ralek the Fake (I know the real Ralek Gracie who will find you and kick your arse when he turns 18) is in my closed guard. I open my legs (open guard) and control your biceps with my hands, one on each bicep. I plant my left foot (or right depending on which direction is advantageous). This helps me to rotate my body out to the side. I bring my right leg up and place it high, near your shoulders, all the while controlling no-nathan Ralek's elbow with my right hand. I keep rotating on my back, parallel to Ralek (actually 45-60 degrees). You gotta keep control of Ralek's left, he might slap you or something. Very important. From here after completely getting my hook over Ralek's anterio-medio delt, I just sit up and bring my hooked leg back towards my hips. Leaning forward with your head "sinks it in". Is that good enuff beyotch?

2nd Friggin tech (just call me sensei): Let's go with one of many options- a handstand sweep: You stand up in a weak-assed attempt to break my rib crushing closed guard. Being a video warrior and practicing on the Blow-Up G ay-boy doll that doubles as your girlfriend, your feet are too close to me. While grasping one of your ankles with one hand going inside and around your ankle, I use my other to effect a "handstand " position (fingers facing you). I push with lots of force on your inguinal crease upward and back. When you land on your back I control your right by reaching across with my left (or vice-versa) and "shrimp" my hips forward to mount you. How ya' liking the lying now?

3rd Tech: So you wanna learn the tech that Wallid used to choke Royce out with? Fukkkk you! You ain't gonna have me typing a friggin' soliloquy. Why don't you TELL ME HOW TO DO A "HELICOPTER ARM BAR"?

IF YOU CHECK FOR EVIDENCE YOU WILL SEE THAT LAST YEAR I POSTED A CAIQUE SEMINAR ON THIS WACK-ARSED FORUM! LOOK IN THE ARCHIVES!!! SPONSORED BY ME FOR THE SORRY ASSED S. TEXANS COULD GET A CHANCE TO MEET A REAL TRADITIONAL MAs MASTER. Yes, I am good friends with Ryron, Renner and Carlos Enrique Elias AKA CAIQUE. Don't make like you've ever trained with a real GJJ or CJJ or MJJ BB. You haven't you're just a fabricating bee--yotch.

While you are at it why don't you tell me how to do Chinto and the resulting bunkai oyo or a tech from BJJs mother art Kodokan Judo? How about UDE GARAMI smart a s s?! I have a BB in Shorin (2 subsystems), Judo and a purple in 1.5 years in BJJ. Kiss my ass! Oh yeah I boxed for 5 years too.
All the rest of you who don't know now you know.... Matsumura ShuriTe is superior to most modern styles, PERIOD. Take it from someone who hasn't been sheltered by the doppleganger that we call the U.S. of A. I think and evaluate and learn for myself. I don't JOCK NO MAN!!!

BTW are you joking with those techs you mentioned? Give me something convincing rather than random terms of techs you don't even know how to do right and won't learn until you have at least a 2-stripe blue belt (about 6 years from now for you). Make me believe you ain't a waste of ATOMS!!! Hell, they coulda' been used to make a toilet bowl or something....

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Water Dragon


Where in the he!! do these guys come from?

:rolleyes:

I come from the land of real, just beyond kicka s s mountain bearing sh it that'll shatter your brainless chatter. Roll your eyes like the ***** you are. Like I say whatI know might hurt YOU and RALEK. Read my reply to your bros obliviousness....

Are you a know-it-all limey or something?

[eulerfan]

SevenStar,

I didn't mean to imply that training hard was irrelevant since all you needed was confidence.

My point was that having confidence, even if it's false, is a good thing on its own. It won't protect you from every attack. But it will lessen the chances of being attacked.

It won't hurt you. Unless, of course, you are OVERLY confident and start fights with big groups of well muscled men.

P.S. In your quote, is that supposed to be 'Machiavelli', as in the Prince or is that somebody else?

[SevenStar]

It's a good thing I have confidence (and physical size) cuz some of my friends may flame the hell outta me if they knew where that quote came from...

It was said by Lex Luthor in an episode of Smallville.

[SevenStar]

Xebsball actually recognized the quote and knew where I got it from. He's a fan of the show too.

(sorry bud, if I go down, so do you :D)

[Chang Style Novice]

I like the Max Fleischer cartoons they made in the late 30s, or perhaps early 40s. They did nice stuff with rotoscoping, and used multiple camera angles for a much fuller, more dynamic look. The new Justice League show is pretty good, too.

I've never seen Smallville.

[fa_jing]

Yeah Sev, you might want to get your spelling from a literary source, not the Source magazine!

Heh heh

[SevenStar]

yeah, justice league is good. They did a good job with the new he man too

[Chang Style Novice]

I was p!ssed off they didn't give Etrigan rhyming dialogue, though. How tough would it have been to find some rapper to ghostwrite some of that stuff?

[SevenStar]

I think we should complain to them about it.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by SevenStar
It's a good thing I have confidence (and physical size) cuz some of my friends may flame the hell outta me if they knew where that quote came from...

It was said by Lex Luthor in an episode of Smallville.

Okay, he proably meant Machiavelli. I don't usually correct spelling because mine is so abhorrant but, since it's in your quote. Also, The Prince is a very interesting study in ethics. I'd recommend it without reservation.

[Chang Style Novice]

Il Principe (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226500438/qid=1033227386/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-0471000-4320065?v=glance&n=507846) un livro di Niccolo Machiavelli per Lorenzo de'Medici, Il Principe di Firenze.

[SevenStar]

yeah, that's exactly who he meant. I dunno why I used a 'K' maybe I was also listening to tupac's "makavelli" when I wrote it. :)-

[eulerfan]

Antoine de Saint-Exupéry was the voice that nurtured me as a kid. Now that it's evident I will never leave this planet, I don't mind telling you I feel a little gipped.

[HuangKaiVun]

Yeah, I had forgotten how Ralek runs away from people in fear.

I'll refrain from trying to meet him.

There's no sense in trying to train with guys that don't show up.

[Xebsball]

dats rite

Lex Luthor for president :D

[Ralek]

I have not ran away from any challenge match. Sifu Abel challenge me to fight in California. I'm in maryland. I can't go then everyone says i'm runnign away? I can't travel across the U.S. I've made it clear that i can only travel short distances.

JF Springer i went to his location near baltimore and he never showed. Then he posted that i didn't show. I can't prove it but i know what happened.

Some person in new york challenged me and insisted that i come up to new york. I have made it clear that i cna only travel short distances.

The only person who actually did the traveling themselves, and acutally showed up was shaolin Tiger. That's why i said the "Good job Shoalin Tiger, your a kung fu hero". I was just happy that he didn't run then post that i ran. He showed up and faught. That's the whole point i'm here on this board is to fight people. JF Springer was the worst becuase i had to drive all the way out near Baltimore and he never showed. The people who live on the other side of the world don't bother me becuase it's obvious they are just blowing their whistles when they say that i'm afraid for not traveling thousands of miles. I don't have the money to go traveling the world seeking fights. This isn't a movie. I can only travel short distances.

The taijiquan instructor i KO'd does not post here. He was just at a college.

[SevenStar]

don't forget sam wiley. yeah, yeah, he's in GA. if you know you can't travel, then don't accept. the MD guys even started a thread that listed all of the traditional schools near you - If you really wanted to challenge someone, you coulda gone to any of them.

[Chang Style Novice]

"post here" sure is a strange way of spelling "exist"

[HuangKaiVun]

Ralek doesn't have the guts to challenge the schools in his own town, so he comes to KFO to challenge guys FAR AWAY.

It must be horrible to drive by some of these MD schools and feel afraid to go in. I mean, Springer's school IS in MD and Ralek is quivering in fear to see him. I'm Chinese and even I'm not that yellow!

Just as well. Ralek would get beaten so badly that even the law couldn't save him.

[Ryu]

"The moral of the story is: fighting multiple opponents and having any success is a myth. "

No it's not. I posted a real life clip of a streetfight that shows otherwise.

Legend, I agree that it's laughable for someone to think he'll never find himself on the ground in any situation. However it IS dangerous to assume that one can simply take a larger stronger opponent to the ground with no problem. Grappling with someone big, strong, and crazy (even if you do have technique) can be dangerous. Royce was a million times more technical then Kimo, but seriously got hurt. Kimo had very little grappling training... how many BJJ students do you think could have tapped him out easy? Playing Devil's advocate here, because grappling with stronger guys is tough. :) (I used to do it quite often :D )

People who put down American fighters... or "training in the U.S"
Asian people are not magic, and neither are their "methods" of training. Some may be more hardcore then "mcdojo" here, but there are many American fighters who train just as hard if not harder. Most Asians do not know martial arts.

Um......... and also....

MMA vs TMA! GO!!! ;)

Ryu

[omegapoint]

You read my reply? You got any more inquiries?

Get your foot out your mouth, little boy!!! Make room for my size 12s!!!

[rogue]

I have not ran away from any challenge match. Sifu Abel challenge me to fight in California. I'm in maryland. I can't go then everyone says i'm runnign away? I can't travel across the U.S. I've made it clear that i can only travel short distances.
Ralek on his way to his fight with Marvin Perry
http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Meadow/5594/feet_on_bike.jpg

[dre]

Do you make a lot of trips to new York Raelek?

[Ralek]

HuangKaiVun. No i do not challenge people who live far away. Every post that i make a challenge i explicityly say that i am looking for poeple in Maryland and i explicityly say that i cannot travel very far.

Only two people who live in maryland have answered the challenge. And only 1 has shown up. I don't remember one post where i challenged people out of maryland. You said that your coming to maryland some day so that would make it possible for me to fight you.

The shchools around me? There is no kung fu schools in Frederick. I still have yet to find a kung fu school. And i don't know where JF springers school is. I went to cooper park near baltimore to meet him and he never showed. And he has never told me where his school is.

[HuangKaiVun]

Ralek's posts are useless.

All macho BS, no action.

Never mind that he could fight guys who aren't so far away in the East Coast.

zzz.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by SevenStar
don't forget sam wiley. yeah, yeah, he's in GA. if you know you can't travel, then don't accept. the MD guys even started a thread that listed all of the traditional schools near you - If you really wanted to challenge someone, you coulda gone to any of them.

lol don't forget no_know :D

[andoi]

hi Jon
although i think i understand where u are coming from or what kind of ppl you are talking about, and i agree to some extent, i felt i had to post a reply to remind ppl that CMA does not have to be all about fighting, i have used my training(i have a long way to go) in a real situation, i survived with out a physical scratch but what happened in my mind was terrifying...there is no joy in winning a fight. i think a lot of ppl who are itching for a fight do not realize that there are other problems than just losing, i want to ask u now why you are so into MA? please realize that this is not an attack(ask friday if u want as i have spoken with him on this same subject) i am just interested to hear your point of veiw.
I am running out of time(cos i must go to training) but i find CMA is inherently tied with Buddhist concepts and i personally( everyone is different) use it now as a way to calm my mind and advance myself phsyically and spiritually( i have a long long way to go, but i have a long long time aswell), Friday has often spoken of sparring but for myself i cannot see the point yet, in the future i may, once i have more control, just to test my calmness of mind in a tense situation, if i am really good i will be able to take blows and not return them( some ppl wont understand this but i think a few of u may) anyway i gotta run
thanks for your time

[jon]

Hi everybody thanks heaps for posting your thoughts. Many interesting differing views, although i can see many see where im comming from.

Still andoi has raised a very good point and one which i wish to clear up. My rant is really aimed at the MANY people who train in cma yet seem to think there combat skills are developed magicaly though hand movements instead of actual hard work.
Still your point is certainly not lost on me and i know that many in cma train for many other reasons beside simply combat. If that was my intire forcuss, my training would be VERY different.
I first and foremost I study an artform and try to further that, however becouse my artform is drawn from combat i dont like seeing its original intent deviated from to much.

Not everyone needs to be a killer or be able to break concrete with a slap but then again people shouldnt delude themselfs either. If people want to study with a focuss other than pure combat then im all for it. I just hope they dont kid themselfs along the way.

Its all a tricky balancing act in the end.

Fighting without an aim is simply pointless brutality which only leads to injurys.
Forms without fighting is a broken method as the actual combat side is only imagined.
What is required is a constant play between the two so as the skills always are advancing but the testing ground is where they truely refined.


To properly answer your question about why i study would take me way longer than i have time for right now. Also strange as this may sound its a little bit private to me and although i would be happy to discuss via pm im a little bit shaky about doing so on the board. Its nothing special but i dont like getting to far into personal issues on public boards. If your intersted please just send me a pm ill be happy to discuss with you. Lets just start by saying sometimes the road up the mountain seems quicker than the way back down.

"if i am really good i will be able to take blows and not return them"
* heh heh
When you get REALLY good you will be able to take blows AND return them, without even meaning to or trying;)

Thank you for your post andoi, i always appreciate it when someone takes time.
All the best and happy training
Jon