Kung Fu given no respect? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Braden

09-26-2002, 07:07 AM

Frankly, I don't see the disrespect you're talking about. Except on the internet and/or from people with very little/no martial training. In the real world, I haven't noticed this at all. Which is to say, no more than for other arts.

As for the "MMA scene", a ground game is very important here, and kungfu guys don't have it and (along with many other arts) largely haven't adopted it. The reason for this is partly the attitude of kungfu practitioners, but just as much a function of happenstance regarding what arts/teachers formative figures in pre-MMA were exposed to. The latter is a far more interesting, and far less spoken about, topic of discussion. Really, it's no more complex than that. It's worth noting that kungfu practitioners have historically, and continue to fare extraordinarily well in hard contact fighting sports without ground fighting.

It's also worth noting that, at this point, the "MMA scene" is made proportionally of people who don't train. Not an attack on MMA, but simply a statement pretty accurate to anything that becomes popular. With this in mind, you might not want to be too concerned with what "they" say. On the other hand, their observations, and particularly the observations of some of the MMA vanguard/old boys or generally their "upper" stratum, might well be worth including in your own analysis of your training.

CD Lee

09-26-2002, 07:19 AM

I have a TKD brown belt buddy, and another BJJ, Muy Tai friend. The both have respect for Kung Fu. I don't see the disrespect.

If you are talking about these internet junkies that post all day long, you are talking about a very limited and focused audience.

Regular people don't even know what Kung Fu is. Go out and start asking. I have not met one single person to this date, outside of these type forums, that knows what Xingyiquan or Baguazang is.

As far as real life. People are a LOT nicer and more respectful in person than on these forums. Or in thier cars for that matter! :D

rogue

09-26-2002, 07:23 AM

I think respect comes from backing up the claims made for your art. For example, Wing Chun guys go on about how efficient and practical their art is but then go on to say how it takes years of training and learning concepts and how to apply them to make it all work. There's a disconnect between the claim and the reality.

I think if you're looking for respect from the MMA crowd then sport is the answer. Things like sabaki challenge and shidokan give karateka a place to earn some respect and San Shou may be the place where the CMA get some respect from the MMA crowd.

If you really need to feel respected be thankful your chosen art doesn't have the initials TKD in them. :D

ShaolinTiger00

09-26-2002, 07:40 AM

Sanshou is boxing, wrestling and muay thai? Do you mean it is those training formats, or it is those competition formats?

Speak English man! I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I'll take a stab at it anyway.

Sanshou has all of those elements and more. IMO the great thing about san shou is that they are combined into one art, the training is not divided. Ex. when people train Braz jj and muaythai they study 2 seperate things. they forget the middle ground and that is a huge grey area. San shou is seemless. kick punch clinch throw/ kick catch throw. kick punch takedown/ even knees are now being allowed in competitions. IMO it is the closest thing to standup MMA training that you can get. And MMA guys are taking notice. Ask Shonie Carter or Frank Shamrock. Many are now scrambling o learn more about san shou because they made the assumption that all CMA was flowery wushu (I like wushu but its not fighting!)

Sanshou was the standup art they were looking for all along. a diamond in the rough.

red5angel

09-26-2002, 07:42 AM

I think I mostly have to agree with Braden and CD Lee on this, I dont see a whole lot of the disrespect except maybe on some of these forums. The guys I know who train MMA have all the respect in the world for what I do.
Braden I posted in the wingchun forum on te idea that grappling was around while all these crazy striking arts were being created and that the loss of the ideas were through poor teaching or understanding and not lack of knowledge in the first place.

rogue

09-26-2002, 07:50 AM

the loss of the ideas were through poor teaching or understanding and not lack of knowledge in the first place Have to agree with you there. I'm into Korean arts and way back when in ancient Korea (1950's - 1960's) when these arts were being developed they all had a grappling and ground fighting component. Even TKD had them but somewhere along the way they gots lost.

red5angel

09-26-2002, 07:54 AM

Rogue, its my belief that that is pretty much true for many striking arts. I think that at some point "striking" came into vogue, it might look cooler or maybe became a sign of someone who had some phat skeewz. I believe that some of these arts still have the concepts buried in them, but until people in the TMA start taking grappling as a serious enough threat as punching or kicking, they will remain hidden.

Braden

09-26-2002, 08:00 AM

ShaolinTiger - A competition format is a compilation of rules and setting defining a martial sport. A training format is a collection of drills and exercises. The two are quite different, but it was ambiguous as to which you were referring to.

Your response, since you discuss training methods, indicates you were speaking of the training format, at least. Though I suspect you're not making the differentiation outlined above to begin with, which is exactly my issue with your post.

It could be that your sanshou is a combination of the training methods of boxing, wrestling, and muay thai. However, that doesn't mean everyone else's is. Sanshou as a term refers to a specific aspect of training which has been an integral part of most (all?) traditional chinese martial arts for hundreds of years. For instance, 'sanshou' is an integral component listed in official lists of the components of yiquan training - but they are not doing the same things in their 'sanshou training' as you are in yours. In this sense, 'sanshou training' is the same sort of a term as 'weight training.'

The conclusion from this is that it is not necessarily accurate to say sanshou contains boxing, wrestling, and muay thai. Moreover, if that's what your sanshou contains, then what you're doing is not kungfu.

Red

I think it's important to distinguish between grappling and groundfighting. And I think it's also important to distinguish, in both cases, between submission and non-submission based fighting.

Defining grappling as an emphasis on controlling your opponent's posture and balance, I would agree completely that any martial art founded in practical usage contains (contained before it was lost?) heavy doses of grappling. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I'd find it dubious anyone could apply their art against a comparable or skilled opponent without alot of training in this.

Defining submission grappling as a subset of the above that uses the control itself, or as an avenue to obtain further postural manipulations which, in themselves are attacks... I don't think this was ever necessarily a part of every practical martial art, although the vast majority probably contained at least some training in this.

Using the same scheme, I think formal groundfighting training was, historically, reasonably rare, and submission groundfighting very rare.

Note that I don't mean to include in groundfighting, techniques where you remain in a standing or semi-standing (eg. knees) position while your opponent is prone; nor by submission groundfighting, those submissions which are entered directly from a standing position following a takedown (eg. here you are not 'fighting' on the ground to win). Of course, with this kind of training, you'll have submissions fail and people scrambling up or at one another, which I would call informal training; hence the 'formal groundfighting' disctinction above.

There, now is that thorough or what. ;p

CD Lee

09-26-2002, 08:14 AM

The conclusion from this is that it is not necessarily accurate to say sanshou contains
boxing, wrestling, and muay thai. Moreover, if that's what your sanshou contains, then
what you're doing is not kungfu.

Well, this is an interesting statement. Is not San Shou a MMA 'format' that allows different styles such as western boxing and MT to co-exist in a competitive contest with other styles of Kung Fu?

Braden, your quesiton begs the question from ShaolinTiger - what do you mean by 'kung fu'?

I think you have great point.

red5angel

09-26-2002, 08:25 AM

LOL! Braden, Very thorough! Do you believe that it is necessary to differentiate between the three types of "ground combat" or would you say that all three of these categories are included in anyones repertoire or would you say you seperate them because they are seperate approches?

I think I confused myself there! What I am thinking is that much of those aspects of which you speak are natural extensions of the others.......

ShaolinTiger00

09-26-2002, 08:36 AM

It could be that your sanshou is a combination of the training methods of boxing, wrestling, and muay thai. However, that doesn't mean everyone else's is.

It is not boxing, wrestling and muay thai. It is sanshou and it contains all these elements. It is not a merger of 3 arts. Understood?

Sanshou as a term refers to a specific aspect of training which has been an integral part of most (all?) traditional chinese martial arts for hundreds of years. For instance, 'sanshou' is an integral component listed in official lists of the components of yiquan training - but they are not doing the same things in their 'sanshou training' as you are in yours.

:rolleyes: These times, they are a changin... wushu used to mean kungfu but now it is is the term used to describe the sport. Same with san shou. San shou now is associated with the fighting sport. like it or not.

Moreover, if that's what your sanshou contains, then what you're doing is not kungfu.

10 years of Shaolin Longfist and Jow Ga kungfu, A lineage that includes Ark Yuey Wong and Dean Chin, a list of forms that could make your head spin, weapon training as varied as the horse bench to the kwan do, tea ceremonies, lion dancing, and you are going to tell me what is and isn't kungfu.... Excuse me if I die laughing.

San shou is the essence of kungfu. If you don't have fighting spirit and the basic skills to hang on the leitai with the big boys, then you need to get back to the kwoon and figure out what you are missing. All the nerve strikes in the world won't keep you safe if you can't stare down a fist, supress your fear and fight back. Its not about winning or losing. Its about trying.

kungfu - great skill / great skill - great effort / great effort-great doubt.

Braden

09-26-2002, 09:04 AM

CD Lee

The secret is in differentiating between training formats and competing formats. Two very different things that often share a name. Sanshou the competition format is exactly what you said. Sanshou the training format is not. By kungfu I mean the classical martial arts of the chinese culture.

I'm not sure if that answers your question... seems like you understood my point though. ;)

Red

Yes, you have to differentiate between them. They can be (but sometimes are not) very different.

All of them are grappling. But not all grappling is submission grappling, nor groundfighting; and not all groundfighting is submission groundfighting.

Technically speaking, you're right that these different things are extentions of one another. But this is in theory, and not within the bounds of a given art. This is an important distinction. It's true that, in the whole of reality, the knowledge of submission is an extension (although, of course, it has all sorts of it's own knowledge) of the knowledge of basic grappling (as I've defined the terms). But that doesn't mean that that is the case for any given art. For instance, some arts may choose, for the sake of tactical preference, or efficiency of training time, never to make that leap.

For example, greco-roman wrestlers spend alot of time training 'par terre' methods (groundfighting), but it's not submission groundfighting. For the most part, instead of going for a postural control which is a physical attack, they're trying to flip or throw their opponent to expose his back to the ground. In terms of technique, training, and practical application and implication - this is alot different than a submission groundfighting approach you would see in judo or BJJ.

For a 'standup' grappling example, take leg jamming movements to your opponent's outside, keeping your pelvis open to him (eg. http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/kosogake.gif ). If you look at the middle picture, the opponent's structure and balance are broken - judoka call this kuzushi. What's the point of doing this? Because it impairs the strength, reactivity, and resiliency of your opponent. Judoka use this to throw/put their opponent on the ground and to attack the joints (submission grappling), as in the case here. The kuzushi is grappling, a joint attack would be submission grappling. Why not just throw someone to the ground or lock out their elbow without this kuzushi? It doesn't work - just watch a judo match on TV to get a lesson on this. ;p But you don't have to go from kuzushi to a throw or submission. You can go to a bodylock which does not harm the opponent, but denies him movement (you see this alot, again, in greco roman wrestling). You can also strike. Take the middle picture of that koso gake again, and instead of continuing the movements to the third picture, have the 'judokas' elbow thump into the opponent's mastoid a split-second after kuzushi is established (the arm position to do this would be a bit different, but the principle is the same). This is a common technique in baguazhang. Is it grappling? Definitely. Is it submission grappling? Nope.

ShaolinTiger

"It is not boxing, wrestling and muay thai. It is sanshou and it contains all these elements. It is not a merger of 3 arts. Understood?."

No, actually. Are you just arguing semantics? By which I mean, I might choose to call this drink a screwdriver, but that doesn't change the fact that it's orange juice and vodka.

Or, are you making the mistake of believing that boxing, wrestling, and muay thai refer to any techniques executed during the appropriate 'ranges' of a martial engagement; and thus, since you punch, you're a boxer; and since you takedown you're a wrestler, and so on. If this is the mistake you're making, you're at least consistent, since it's again due to confounding training formats with competition formats.

What do I mean by this? By 'confound' I mean that a term has two or more meanings, and that you switch sporadically between the meanings in your argument, and it is this reason that your argument is incorrect. For example, in this case here, wrestling, boxing, and muay thai (like sanshou) can all refer to two different things: certain training formats and certain competition formats. To elaborate since you still don't seem to understand what I mean - I can train for three years in a northern preying mantis school, then enter a muay thai competition and say I'm doing muay thai. You can train in muay thai for three years and never enter a competition and say you are doing muay thai. Even though we are both using the same words, we are meaning very different things. This is exactly what I mean, and exactly what you've been confounding. Continuing with the above example, you say that sanshou contains all of boxing, wrestling, and muay thai. By this, you must mean the competition formats of all these terms. But you have concluded from this that sanshou is therefore the standup art they were looking for all along; but here you are referring to training formats. You switched meanings, you confounded. This isn't just a logic lesson. If you had not confounded (ie. if you were logically consistent), you would have meant, 'it is the standup competition format they have been looking for.' But, although this is logically consistent, it isn't true. They allready have the competition format they were looking for, and they like it better than sanshou. Not a logic lesson, but an explanation as to why I think your entire meaning, even broadly interpreted, is entirely incorrect.

"wushu used to mean kungfu but now it is is the term used to describe the sport. Same with san shou. San shou now is associated with the fighting sport. like it or not."

I'm not sure why any of this was addressed to me, nor what relation it has to the passage it seems to respond to.

"10 years of Shaolin Longfist...and you are going to tell me what is and isn't kungfu"

No, I'm going to tell you, exactly as I said, that if you're doing muay thai + boxing + wrestling, then you're not doing kungfu. I'm not sure where the ambiguity was, but I apologize for the confusion.

"San shou is the essence of kungfu..."

Again, not sure why this was addressed to me, nor what relation it has to anything I said.

red5angel

09-26-2002, 09:30 AM

I see your point. I dont want to argue too much about the state of grappling or groundfighting in ancient china since I am by no means an expert but I would be curious to do some research and find out!

Liokault

09-26-2002, 09:39 AM

Got to agree with Branden here.

San Shou is a format not a style. Many people quote their choosen competition format in the title of their style (i.e san Shou) but this does ot make it difinitive.

Kind of like Kick boxing back in the day when krate and kung fu were competeing against each other in it. Eventialy some guys started training just for competitions and started to call them selfs "kick boxing" or "free style"

ShaolinTiger00

09-26-2002, 09:52 AM

As history tells us, the format will mold the style to its form.

ex. judoka have become geared towards the throw as newaza time is limited.

kickboxing is a style of its own after it shed many of the traditional trappings and favored better western boxing.

You won't win a san shou tournament by studying wing chun. It just wont happen. You will not be prepared. (again this isn't about win/lose but what you bring to the game)

Ask any of the top san shou teams if san shou is a style or just the rules. It is a very effective stand up style and it should be recognized.

fa_jing

09-26-2002, 09:55 AM

The tape I saw of San Shou training in China, looked like a mix of Traditional Chinese training methods (arm swings, stretching, throw practice, etc) with Western sportfighting training methids. When they punched and kicked in sparring, it looked a little different from the mechanics used in say, western boxing. I saw more use of torque, to be honest. But their mechanics were clearly influenced by some sportfighting styles, while retaining some CMA flavor. So the Chinese San Shou practice is both clearly distinct from, yet clearly influenced by-- Western Boxing, Wrestling, Muy Thai, and TKD. I think SanShou is more of a format than anything else, like JKD. Here's how I envision the training going: Line up the students - ok, jab! And every one can do the jab from their base style. Here, hit this bag - and everyone can do the strikes from their base style. Now, shadowbox! Some do a form, some punch into the air. Now, warmup - some jump rope, some do torso-stretching arm swings. Anyway, if your talking sportfighting, it is going to be hard to come up with a seriously different system of sportfighting based on TMA, that's going to clearly beat styles that are BORN of sport. I think you can equal these but you won't surpass them. In other words, if sportfighting is your only goal, I think you are JUST as well off studying styles born of sport as styles born of the battlefield or street.

ShaolinTiger00 - so those ten years of Kung Fu, do you regret them? Wish you spent more time on sportfighting styles? Or did you reach the same level of ability that you would have, regardless? I'm betting it's the latter (but please answer the question!) Do you still do warmups, use principles, use mechanics of your Kung Fu practice, including in the SanShou comps? Or have you thrown it ALL out the window in favor of Western Bxoing?

Braden

09-26-2002, 10:28 AM

ShaolinTiger

"As history tells us, the format will mold the style to its form."

Really? Compare and consider what Ma Xianda has to say on the topic:

"For example, in 1999, there was a fight in Hawaii (China vs. U.S.A. Art of War) where my son was a referee. It was not so good. I criticized our sanda in front of the top leaders. Our sanda looked like yin yang ren (yin and yang mixed up in one body) because the sanda technique there did not contain Wushu. It only had some western boxing, and even the boxing was not that good. I was one of the first Chinese to train boxing under a western expert and I was a world champion. The kicks didn't look like Chinese kicks. Chinese martial arts have beautiful kicks but nobody there could do them. It's just like wearing traditional Chinese attire with a western mustache. You look "in between." You can't tell the difference between a sanda strike, Korean, Thai, or Japanese.

I was the first sanda champion in 1952. I was only 19. They only had three divisions - lightweight 54 kilos, middleweight 54- 80 kilos, heavyweight 80+ kilos. I was a middleweight. In that time, Shaolin, Wudang, Xingyi, Bagua, everyone came out to fight. But you could tell which system they belong too. Now in sanda, you cannot tell. No character. Even in boxing, you can tell the different styles, British from American. Now no one takes the time to learn basic Wushu. The problem is that basic Wushu training is too weak. Nobody bothers to study what is Chinese sanda or what is Wushu."

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=244

ShaolinTiger00

09-26-2002, 10:31 AM

do you regret them? Wish you spent more time on sportfighting styles?

NO ! I had the wonderful opporitunity to learn them all together. My sifu provided me with the most well rounded program of CMA that I could imagine. I've run the gambit. Thats what the CMA experience is all about. Any kickboxer can fight full contact, a kungfu man can fight, forms, weapons, internal etc.

I did pure traditional Jow Ga for the first 3 years. I had no idea about san shou or even much about fighting or other MA period. I just knew that I loved what I did and I was becomming stronger, more agile and began to explore philosophy and human nature as well as the rich background of kungfu and Shaolin. As I was becoming more educated in fighting I knew that my sifu did not train full contact fighters and I respectfully asked him whom I should see about fighting (I was also moving north) He directed me to an excellent sifu (an amazing human being) who fought full contact, trained full contact, practiced qigong/taiji and still did traditional forms.

Or did you reach the same level of ability that you would have, regardless? I'm betting it's the latter (but please answer the question!)

I don't think about that. Who knows? Was I mentally ready to start fighting full contact earlier? My heart wasn't there. Where you're at is where you're at.

Do you still do warmups, use principles, use mechanics of your Kung Fu practice, including in the SanShou comps? Or have you thrown it ALL out the window in favor of Western Bxoing?

I practice them everyday. I'm still able to kick above my head and remember many forms. I've infected the judo dojo with some of my methods for stretching the legs and knees and shoulders in ways they had never saw. Then again they've shown me some things!

One of the best things about kungfu is that it builds amazing speed and agility! Of course I used it, Its all I've ever known. There was no "this is a "boxing" jab, this is a kungfu hook" it was all just fighting. One of my fav "clever" techniques is a powerful double sweep Iron Broom straight out of N. Shaolin(the front legs kicks in hard and low like a roundkick at the ankles, once turned sideways keep spinning in same irection but your level drops very low as rear leg spins thru the target) Its a high risk move though. I've gained big and I've lost big when attempting it. thats fighting..

fa jing - i truly love kungfu.

NorthernMantis

09-26-2002, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00

You won't win a san shou tournament by studying wing chun. It just wont happen.

Correction, there was a guy a while back that posted that his kung fu brother won a san shou match using wing chun.

It doens't mater really, it's more about experience. Of course no one who has never sparred before can go into a ring and win. It just isn't possible.

What good will fighting about styles do? Nothing. Over the years, in my experience, I have learned that it's how much you work at it and how much experience you really have. Styles aren't superior jsut different.

Take my example. When I started out in kung fu I heard that a boxer who has spent little time in boxing can surely beat a kung fu guy who'se done it for a considerable abmount of time. Well about a little over a year in training i beat a boxer in sparring. Ok granted he wasn't good but he he must have at least done it longer than I have. The second time I sparred another boxer I got beat but that's life.

Now getting into the main topic... what they meant is that if you use western techniques and call it a cma then it's not a cma regardless of what you say.

Hey I'm not knocking san shou but it sure as heck doesn't use chinese fighting methods.

ShaolinTiger00

09-26-2002, 11:18 AM

Correction, there was a guy a while back that posted that his kung fu brother won a san shou match using wing chun.

I didn't say he couldn't win A match.

I said he would not win a tournament

every dog gets one lucky day. good dogs get 2.

and no disrespect but you give me 10 boxers and 10 traditional guys and the boxers will win 9 of 10. Boxers are better fighters because they fight like they train, hard and often.

neptunesfall

09-26-2002, 11:25 AM

you guys pay for my bills, food, etc. etc. so i can train 6-8 hrs a day and i'll go fight in the ufc. not much to do with the thread, but it was an idea i just had.

fa_jing

09-26-2002, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
do you regret them? Wish you spent more time on sportfighting styles?

NO ! I had the wonderful opporitunity to learn them all together.
{...}
fa jing - i truly love kungfu.

Your whole reply was quite enjoyable and well written.
'Nuff said! Just asked so that people could see in your posts what I was already seeing. Since everyone sees what they want to see...:)

Braden

09-26-2002, 11:52 AM

Wow... more of the myth of the non-competitive TMAist.

TSN has been showing clips of the northern preying mantis guy who took middle heavyweight at the last Clash of the Titans. Tim Cartmell put up free mpegs right on the internet of his neijia-trained men taking out MMAists (unanimously?) at his invitational. Mike Patterson's xingyi fighters have years of top-ranking tourney experience against muay thai-ists, all documented on his webpage. There's clips and photos of Su Yu Chang's northern preying mantis disciple taking heavyweight muay thai belt in thailand a couple years in a row... What's it gonna take guys?

ShaolinTiger00

09-26-2002, 11:57 AM

Braden don't misconstrue my words.

Competitive fighters win. Most traditional MA don't compete full contact.

Braden

09-26-2002, 12:17 PM

So you're saying the good fighter is going to win, regardless of style? :D

NorthernMantis

09-26-2002, 12:47 PM

lol calm down dude I did say a match. I was gonna bold it the first time but I thought that would have come acrross as rude.:D

I know what you mean.

Thai_Kick

09-26-2002, 01:17 PM

ShaolinTiger00 wrote...

Put those three sports together and you have Chinese
San Shou, which has been beating muay thai fighters at their own sport in recent competitions

Oh really...
The last time Thailand (Muay Thai) vs. China (San Shou) tournament happened on December 5, 2001 in Bangkok, Thailand and the results of the fights ended up to be opposed to your statement. A few months before this tournament, a team of Thai fighters (5) went to China and the Thai's lost on controversial decisions expect one, which ended with a Thai fighter knocking out a San Shou fighter, all the fights were under San Shou rules. Now a few months later on December 5, 2001 this new tournament was on Thai soil and the results were devastating towards Chinese San Shou. A team of 5 San Shou fighters went to this tournament and 4 lost due of KO's by the Muay Thai fighters, and the only Chinese victory came by decision, also just like in China all the fightes were under San Shou rules.

ShaolinTiger00

09-26-2002, 01:25 PM

Oh really.... YEAH REALLY

so far, result of series has been

September 7, 2002
China 6/Thailand 1

May 4, 2002
China 6/Thailand 1

December 10 ,2001
Thailand 5/China 2

December 5, 2001
Thailand 4/China 1

September 23, 2001
China 5/Thailand 2

September 8, 2001
China 4/Thailand 3

little know fact: Thai boxers suck at math. Sanda beats Thai 4/2

Thank you sifu Ross, for keeping the kickboxing community well informed.
:D

fa_jing

09-26-2002, 01:34 PM

Isn't it amazing how no one's ever seen Thai_Kick and Clark Kent in one room together? Yet, no one's made the connection. Thai_Kick is really Clark Kent!!!!

ShaolinTiger00

09-26-2002, 01:46 PM

You know its a bad sign when his first post is a troll and on top of that, wrong.

sanshou vs. muay thai / bjj vs. judo - so similar its practically sibling rivalry

consider me you big brother ;)

Thai_Kick

09-26-2002, 02:08 PM

little know fact: Thai boxers suck at math. Sanda beats Thai 4/2

Ok buddy, your cool? Sorry fa_jing but what the HELL are you talking about?

You know its a bad sign when his first post is a troll and on top of that, wrong.

A troll post... because I disagreed with your statement it make is a troll post? Grow up buddy, everyone has a right of an openion even if it dosen't agree with yours. *******!

lkfmdc

09-26-2002, 02:49 PM

Oh so much I could talk about on this thread, but in priority

1. In the December matches in Thailand, NO, sorry, you are WRONG, there was ONE, count it, ONE KO and 3 decisons for Thailand. And one of the decisions even Thai boxing people I know thought was weak. 5 days later, Thailand had 1 ko and the rest decison wins and China took 2 wins by decision from THAI judges, but thanks for playing

2. China has still won a majority of the matches

3. Ma's comments remind me of the grumpy old man who talks about how things were so much better when he was young. Having seen footage of some of the 1960's, 1970's even early 1980's matches, they would get trashed by modern San Shou fighers. Also, can't see at all what the heck he is talking about Re San Shou kicking, our kicking is very distinctly Chinese. Sorry we just don't wear silk PJ's no more

As long as people think that doing forms is training hard, don't spar full contact, never test their skills against alive resisting opponent's, present David Carradine granola philosophy as TCMA and generally act like Chinese martial art is some holistic new age yoga, people are gonna laugh at us and with GOOD REASON

Respect is earned, not demanded

lkfmdc

09-26-2002, 02:51 PM

oh, one more thing

in the China vs Thai matches

ELBOWS AND KNEES ARE LEGAL......

jmd161

09-26-2002, 02:57 PM

I've not only heard it from MMA's or BJJ people.
I've heard it from.
Karate,Kempo,Boxing,Muay Thai,Etc........

It comes from " US " the reason Kung Fu is not respected anymore.I for one except my beating like a man because i used to help this sterotype.I used to train at my old school 5 days a week up to 5 hrs a day then another couple of hrs at home.

What's the problem then?

I was training to learn a form as quick as i could so i could learn the next trying to rush my way to black sash.I thought just by knowing the moves when i became a black sash i was going to start learning closed door stuff and become this super fighter.I really did'nt practice the techniques i just wanted to show i know the form.

Silly i know ,but alot of people think this way.I was lucky i was shown my error in thinking that.I always looked at Sifuabel and said when i get to his level i'm gonna be like him.

Problem is how are you gonna be like him if you don't train like him.I remember we had this guy at our school that had come from a Wing Chun school ,and all he did was talk about Wing Chun.How he was an advanced student and was wasting his time learning our first form Jap Hsiao Ma Kune in Cheung Kune Pai(Sung Style Longfist).Well Sifuabel heard this one day while teaching class i don't know if he remembers ,but this is what happened.He went to the student and said you think your Wing Chun is better than our first form right.Student yes i do.Ok said Sifuabel i'll use our first form you use all you know from Wing Chun.

It was so funny and sad at the same time.
That was the first and only time i have ever seen a person fight using an entire form to the letter.While using the form to beat this guy silly he called out every movement in the form like in an old kung fu movie.Needless to say the guy never mouthed off again about our style.That impressed all of us beginners and advanced students alike.I really did'nt think that first form was anything until that day.The problem is we all want to be like a great Sifu we have ,but how many want to train as hard as they do?Not many not many indeed.

I laugh now because Sifuabel would spar and play around with us all the time ,but none of us could ever hit him.I remember asking Sifugus Sifuabel's teacher how can i hit Sifuabel he said only i am able to hit Sifuabel.I said Sifugus is there at least a way i can trow a punch or kick back.It does'nt have to hit him i just wanna be able to trow something back.He was so good that you never had a chance to even counter with any attack of your own.

And the problem is every Sifu at the school was like that they trained very hard with Sifugus.The students all wanted to be like our Sifu's just many of us did'nt think you had to do the training they did to get there.

" Wrong "

You have to train just as hard as they did if not harder to reach that goal.I know that now ,but far to many students and even some Sifu have'nt learned that yet.So they keep learning forms thinking that they will someday transform them through some magic way into this great kung fu warrior.

" Wake Up Kung Fu People "

Were making ourselfs,our style,our art,look bad ,but most of all were making are Sifu's look bad.I don't say this to make Sifuabel look good i say this because the respect i have for the man that helped me see what a true Martial Artist is.

To Che Sifu,
Jeff Clark

rogue

09-26-2002, 07:00 PM

Hey Ross what took you ?;) I've been wondering how many of your San Shou students come from CMA and how many come from other arts?

jmd161, you mean Sifuabel is really Sifuabels name?:D

Royal Dragon

09-26-2002, 07:47 PM

Lol at abel beating up a Wing Chun guy!!!:D

As for the whole forms thing, I used to do that too. Now I only practice Wu Bu Chuan (As a holding exercises), San Zhen and a couple of Southern Tai Tzu's basic sets because they are so rooted in the foundation. I actually do it in shifts, I spend a few weeks on one, unitl I see a noticable improvement and then work another for a few weeks..

The ONLY thing I do all the time is my 64 move Taiji Quan set. it consist of only the 8 original Taiji postures done over and over again in the 8 directions. I like it because of it's emphasis on the basics.

I have probually over 30 forms I have learned in my almost 14 years at this game, and all I want to practice for the next few years are the few base sets I have. My idea of collecting forms now is to get them on video.

I think that is why I like the Southern Tai Tzu, it has only 6 forms, and the first four are real short fundemental skills type things. Even the main form "Yi Lu" is pretty simple from what I'm told (It's very rare, and the master I know that has it probally won't share with out me flying to China to meet him). The entire style is all about basics, basics, basics. It's simple strait to the point and uncomplicated.

Your basics are everything. The advanced stuff is just newer and cooler ways of applieing the basics. I know guys now that never learned even half the system, but thier Kung fu is better than anyone I have come across so far. The guys that know the most, seem to have the worst skills.

SevenStar

09-26-2002, 08:11 PM

is your yi lu similar to yi lu mai fu?

jmd161

09-26-2002, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by rogue
jmd161, you mean Sifuabel is really Sifuabels name?:D

rogue,

Yeah i't's his real name.

I just noticed that it seems like it's made up ,but it's not.

jmd161:)

Crimson Phoenix

09-27-2002, 01:50 AM

Seven I highly doubt it...

Royal Dragon

09-27-2002, 04:23 AM

Nope. It's completely different. Yi Is just Chinese for the number one. Lu is form. Yi Lu means first form. Could be the first form taught, or the first form invented. It could be alot of things.

Southern Tai Tzu has a Yi Lu, meaning the styles first form invented (It's acually the 5th form taught), The Northern Tai Tzu has a Yi Lu too. It's a TOTALLY different set, and refers to the fact that it's the first Northern form you learn.

UltimateFighter

09-27-2002, 04:40 AM

Brad

09-27-2002, 06:18 AM

San Sou is definately not Kung Fu. They wear boxing gloves and it is much more akin to western boxing and Muay Thai than any traditional Kung Fu styles like Shoulin and preying mantis.

Just because they are Chinese does not make it Kung Fu!!!!!!! In fact, San sou the mma style (not to be confused with the term 'san sou' which is used in some kung fu styles) openly acknowledges that it was heavily influenced by MMA styles of the west.

I don't understand why so many chinese martial artists are so eager to disasociate themselves with those few CMA people that can actually prove they can fight. You mean you don't have jab, cross, or hooks in your kungfu style? Or roundhouse kick, or front thrust kick? How about side thrust kick? Throwing? These are all basic moves that I've seen used in the few San Shou matches I've watch, which are also represented in various forms I've practiced. Also the idea that boxing gloves has anything to do with making it not chinese is rediculous. Gloves have been used in Chinese fighting competition long before San Shou as we know it today existed.

ShaolinTiger00

09-27-2002, 06:22 AM

I don't understand why so many chinese martial artists are so eager to disasociate themselves with those few CMA people that can actually prove they can fight. You mean you don't have jab, cross, or hooks in your kungfu style? Or roundhouse kick, or front thrust kick? How about side thrust kick? Throwing?

-Amen brother.

Daredevil

09-27-2002, 06:58 AM

Yeah, san sou is different from a lot of chinese martial arts. At least, it's very different from styles I am familiar with, such as Bajiquan. Many have already pointed out that it's more like muay thai and MMA and so maybe san sou is not such a close relative of other chinese arts.

However, good san shou guys can have kungfu, just as good BJJers do, and as far as I'm concerned that's all that matters.

It's all about skill. The better man wins.

One can ask why they aren't seeing a lot of those "better men" from traditional style backgrounds, but the question shouldn't typically lead to an argument which style is better. Of course, there are good fighters from traditional styles, but due to their lack of representation on the typical NHB venues (which people look to for finding good fighters these days in the west) I'm not surprised people are being suspicious.

Just a few old thoughts on the old subject.

lkfmdc

09-27-2002, 07:32 AM

"Ultimate Fighter"'s comments just goes to show that total ignorance of a subject doesn't stop anyone from posting on the internet

I am guessing from the ICON he attached to his profile he does Wing Chun? Well, I guess if you're method only has two kicks and straight punches and no grappling you don't see how San Shou is Chinese martial art.....

lkfmdc

09-27-2002, 07:35 AM

- "In fact, San sou -- openly acknowledges that it was heavily influenced by MMA styles of the west." -

where do you get this horse hockey?? NONSENSE pure and simple, NO ONE says they were influenced by "mma style of the west", in China 99% of the San Shou fighters have never heard of MMA.

I also love how someone with 2 years of training acts like an expert on anything

UltimateFighter

09-27-2002, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by lkfmdc
[B
I am guessing from the ICON he attached to his profile he does Wing Chun? Well, I guess if you're method only has two kicks and straight punches and no grappling you don't see how San Shou is Chinese martial art..... [/B]

Your post saying that wing chun only has 'two kicks and straight punches' shows your total lack of knowledge of this style and chinese martial arts. Take your own advise and don't post if your clearly so ignorant. And the main san sou organistaions have based their rormat around mma and a western boxing hybrid. This is accepted. So get your facts straight before spreading your own ignorance on others.

ShaolinTiger00

09-27-2002, 08:14 AM

oh you poor ******* And the main san sou organistaions have based their rormat around mma and a western boxing hybrid. This is accepted.

incorrect.

lkfmdc

09-27-2002, 12:23 PM

"ultimate fighter", I have forgotten more Chinese martial art in my lifetime than you will EVER learn. Please don't act like you know anything with your scarse 2 years of training.

Wing Chun remains the worst representation of Chinese martial arts there can be, no hooks, no uppercuts, no grappling.... perhaps the result of the fact that it's main teacher was an opium addict who only taught enough to get money for his habit

What San Shou organizations do you have any contact with? I am on the executive board of my nation's two San Shou bodies. I am IWUF and CWA certified. Son, you have NO CLUE what you are talking about

fa_jing

09-27-2002, 02:17 PM

UltimateFighter causes contraversy on the Wing Chun forum too, I have not involved myself in this, nor am I going to now. But I will say the following - In Wing Chun, there is a lifting punch with the palm facing up, similar to an uppercut, and a hook punch I haven't learned yet. There is counter-grappling and a few basic throws. Besides which, I study JKD as well as having exposure and influences from other fighting styles - not that that's necessary, just the path I've chosen. But stop dissing Wing Chun. There are 8 traditional kicks in Wing Chun, not 2. There is no roundhouse kick, if that bothers you than so be it. Insulting Yip Man, although he was an opium addict, does make you look like a fool or uninformed, considering the accomplishments of his martial descendants. Yip Man did, in fact, care deeply about martial arts and WC, although he taught to the public for money, his teaching to his 4 or 5 closed-door students in HK, as well as some of his students in Fatshan was of the highest level.

lkfmdc

09-27-2002, 02:28 PM

Fa-jing, ever seen any MAINLAND wing chun? Looks like a totally different art, looks like CHINESE martial art. Sorry if this upsets you, but the fact remains, Wing Chun through the Yip Man lineage is

stiff
overly upright
lacks effective grappling
lacks footwork
lacks kicking

and that's just a short list.

Wing Chun "counter grappling" leaves a LOT to be desired. Sorry to rupture your bubble.

The fact that you haven't learned a hook punch in basic level also says a lot about what you are doing.

The fact Yip Man WAS an opium addict has a lot to do with the way he ran his school. He taught what he felt like and told each student only they were getting the "real stuff". Sad fact appears that NONE of them got it, as referenced to the mainland versions of Wing Chun which are appearing now.

- "the accomplishments of his martial descendants"-

Uh, let's see, Bruce Lee based on his ACTING career made the art famous. What does that say about Yip Man and his fighting skill?

William Cheung and Emin Boztepe rolled around on the floor for a few minutes and provided the MMA world years of amusement

Botepe's challenge to Royce Gracie and then 360 degree about face and fast retreat also have done wonders for your art's reputation

And Boztepe is the guy who tells his students they can't be choked out because they do Wing Chun, I've mentioned that one of his instructors told a student of ours that and let him put a choke on. They guy went right to sleep.

Wing Chun people talk a lot of smack, especially if San Shou is mentioned. Perhaps because they like to think of themselves as great fighters and a Wing Chun person has never won a San Shou event?

have a nice day

Braden

09-27-2002, 02:56 PM

Opium makes you teach what you like and tell everyone they're getting the real goods when no one is?

Wierd... I thought it mostly just made you constipated.

fa_jing

09-27-2002, 04:26 PM

lkfmdc - you are somewhat right, and somewhat talking out of your rear end. I don't want to personally offend you, and I thank you to continue not to take it that way. It is right to criticize Yip Man's HK teaching, especially to the general public. However, I disagree with some statements like Wing Chun is lacking in kicking. You may be interested to know as well, that we have learned a WC curved trajectory punch, although it is not a hook, it is based on a low-to-high movement that we call "running hand", that is vertical fist but moves in a curved trajectory in the vertical plane. The hook punch is typically not taught until the third set , for the reason that we are taught to beat hooks with straights - a principle that you find many Western boxers employ. That's the way the sets are organized, I don't think Yip Man changed this. Nevertheless, my teacher has taught us the western boxing hook by putting us on the receiving end of it in sparring, and demonstrating on the heavy bag. I employ it myself and find it to be a great tool. Why? Because we at my school are not "style-purists," still, I don't disrespect those who are, in fact these are the people I will end up going to make sure I don't stray *too* far from the curriculum later on. Anyway, as you said, not all Wing Chun came through Yip Man, that's for sure. Anyway, of all things I find the WC kicking to be powerful and versatile, and much better as part of an overall fight game than the TKD I used to take. I agree, the grappling element is not too versatile, there are many who say "stick to your own game, " however I think as part of my own game, I've watched tape of myself sparring and see places where I could have thrown, and I've been very susceptible to throws. Thus, I have taken an interest in Shuai Chiao, attending a couple of seminars, and as it turns out, my teacher has extensive grapppling experience and has taught us inner/outer leg hooking, major and minor, some leg clips, the scoop, and miscellaneous armbars too. As well, we learn the guard and basic groundfighting. My teacher has been a JKD student of Ted Wong for 10 years now, besides all of his RING experience and NHB experience. You might be surprised who your talking to here! I still say there's nothing "wrong" with Wing Chun, because my teacher, although possesing many years of traditional training in Wing Chun, is not a Wing Chun purist so I can't really say I've seen the limitations for myself. I've seen wing chun students who were very limited at a seminar, yet their sigong a famous Yip man grandstudent was very impressive, and I couldn't have touched him if he did not want me to. Anyway, even if you disagree with the order in which things are taught, and the emphases each branch has in training, it is no reason to put down a very sophisticated style. It's like criticizing TaiJi based on the fact that most practicioners in the US can't fight a lick.

fa_jing

09-27-2002, 04:36 PM

Also, Yip-Man descended wing chun students have won full-contact championships in China, even if there are no current guys in San Shou. Still, heck YKS or Pan Nam style is probably better, I mean they look cooler to me from what I've seen. I ain't worried about it! The best style is the one taught by the best teacher you can find. You won't find too many mainland-style Wing Chun teachers around here (or anywhere, for that matter.)
Everything I've been taught from WC has been golden. I've seen other styles, we train at a kwoon that is 7* praying mantis, I've sparred with other styles. Basically I have nothing but respect all around. It's tough to find a style that's been around for 150 years or more that sucks.

SifuAbel

09-27-2002, 07:00 PM

Jeff,

I don't remeber that particular incident, but it does sound like something the young me would do. It wouldn't be the first time the young ****y sifu in the making would give in to temptation. Remember, when you came on to the scene I was already 10 years into the training. So it would make sense you were at a disadvantage at that time. Now, it might be different. Maybe. :D

Anyhow, on topic, Kung fu in america has had the burden of trying to live in what was back then a karate-ized america. Many schools adopted the trash talk policy as not to give credit to kung fu for its age and its influences on other arts. Even to the point where it was said kungfu came from karate. All in an effort to promote their systems. That didn't stop competitors from adopting lower stances, flashier kicks, and more difficult routines. If you see tournies today, you don't see one performance that isn't "wushuized".

UltimateFighter

09-28-2002, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Wing Chun through the Yip Man lineage is

stiff
overly upright
lacks effective grappling
lacks footwork
lacks kicking

and that's just a short list.

Wing Chun "counter grappling" leaves a LOT to be desired. Sorry to rupture your bubble.

The fact that you haven't learned a hook punch in basic level also says a lot about what you are doing.

The fact Yip Man WAS an opium addict has a lot to do with the way he ran his school. He taught what he felt like and told each student only they were getting the "real stuff". Sad fact appears that NONE of them got it, as referenced to the mainland versions of Wing Chun which are appearing now.

- "the accomplishments of his martial descendants"-

Uh, let's see, Bruce Lee based on his ACTING career made the art famous. What does that say about Yip Man and his fighting skill?

William Cheung and Emin Boztepe rolled around on the floor for a few minutes and provided the MMA world years of amusement

Botepe's challenge to Royce Gracie and then 360 degree about face and fast retreat also have done wonders for your art's reputation

Who is this idiot? Insulting Yip Man and the most popular style of Kung Fu in the world (yes, I'm talking about wing chun) only serves to make you look like even more of a moron than you clearly are.
Let me clear up the mis-information he spwewd:
Wing Chun has: 8 kicks, straight punches, an uppercut and a hook, 6 vertical elbow strikes, 3 horizontal elbows, and 3 diagonal elbows, Knee strikes, chops, finger strikes, and some grappling. It also has the most sophisticated and advanced training methods to devlop sensitvity and reflexes on the planet, known as chi sau or 'sticky hands'. All in all, a devastating arsenal.

So in other words: shut your mouth if you have no idea what your talking about, okay kid?

Another thing: I have 2 years wing chun but that is not my only style as I have crosstrained for a number of years in grappling styles. So in other words your little certification which you claim mean nothing, and would not stop me having fun with you if we 'rolled' on the mat.

Understand?

UltimateFighter

09-28-2002, 07:09 AM

And another thing, who the hell asked anyone to turn this into a 'lets did wing chun' thread?

Its funny how if the question of 'respect' for kung fu comes up, all the conversation automatically goes directly to wing chun or san sou. Lets see all the preying mantis, hung gar, and monkey style guys etc.

lkfmdc

09-28-2002, 07:17 AM

Fa-jing, if you find something of value in Wing Chun, then it's good for you, I still find it severly lacking in many areas, especially Shuai Jiao/grappling. My comments about Yip Man and his lineage hold up despite it being "the most popular system" which it is NOT....

Ultimate Fighter, I've been doing Chinese martial arts for 25 years. Where were you 25 years ago? My guess, in the playground.

I am the adopted disciple of a man the Chinese government designated a "living national treasure" and who is the highest ranked person in his tradition in the Western hemisphere.

I was the first non-Chinese accepted in the all Chinese North Eastern Kung Fu Federation. I was the youngest person (Chinese, white or otherwise) to have been asked to demonstrate at the NACMAF master's demo. I have trained numerous national champions in San Shou and two members of the US national team. I have also trained finalists in the last two years NYC Golden Gloves.

Like I said, I have forgotten more martial art than you will EVER learn. So cut the crap

SevenStar

09-28-2002, 07:49 AM

out of curiosity, what were you training in before san shou?

lkfmdc

09-28-2002, 07:56 AM

My first method was Hung ga. I learned the five sets (Gung Gee Fook Fu, Fu Hok Seung Ying, Sahp Ying and Tit Sin) and the three weapons sets (staff, broadsword and butterfly knives) by the age of 18. Dang Fong family but different lineage than Master Frank Yee (some confusion since we are both NY'ers, well, Frank Yee isn't a NY'er but had a school there, you know what I mean)

I studied Shuai Jiao (Chinese wrestling) under Sifu Jeng Hsin Ping, a senior student of master Chang Tung-Sheng

I then began studying Tibetan Lama Pai under Chan Tai San. Chan Tai San also taught Choy Lay Fut and Baahk Mei

These are my primary TCMA

SevenStar

09-28-2002, 08:00 AM

Do you incorporate much of it into the san shou training?

lkfmdc

09-28-2002, 08:13 AM

what so many people seem to fail to grasp is that San Shou is CHINESE MARTIAL ART

just because you don't do forms, hit bags and pads and work partner work and sparring doesn't mean it isn't Chinese martial arts

we focus on what we know will work, we spend our time developing it with partner work, with equipment work and with sparring, but the technique is ALL TCMA

I use Lama Pai ALL THE TIME, it's what we fight with....

Daredevil

09-28-2002, 08:14 AM

It also has the most sophisticated and advanced training methods to devlop sensitvity and reflexes on the planet, known as chi sau or 'sticky hands'.

Uhh, what's 'push hands', then? The cousin who's never let out of the house? :)

Not dissing wing chun as I did WT and very much liked my time there -- taught me more about real fighting in six months than two years of previous MA -- but just pointing out that other styles have similar systems. Wing chun is no doubt among the best for sensitivity, but I'd look especially to the internal styles for this element. It's part of their lifeblood.

Just nagging. :)

SevenStar

09-28-2002, 08:16 AM

I think you misunderstood. wing chun is chinese, but they do not do tornado kicks. shuai chiao is chinese, but they don't do lop sau.
What I'm wondering is if you incorporate the hung gar and lama pai into your san shou.

SevenStar

09-28-2002, 08:18 AM

Never mind - I misread your post.

lkfmdc

09-28-2002, 08:18 AM

I already said YES, period. What do you think we fight with??

SevenStar

09-28-2002, 08:22 AM

that's what I'm trying to find out.

UltimateFighter

09-28-2002, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Ultimate Fighter, I've been doing Chinese martial arts for 25 years. Where were you 25 years ago? My guess, in the playground.

I am the adopted disciple of a man the Chinese government designated a "living national treasure" and who is the highest ranked person in his tradition in the Western hemisphere.

I have trained numerous national champions in San Shou and two members of the US national team. I have also trained finalists in the last two years NYC Golden Gloves.

Like I said, I have forgotten more martial art than you will EVER learn. So cut the crap

I highly doubt your claims for the simple reason that you show the intellectual capacity and disrespectful nature of an 8 year old.

Secondly, don't try to talk of what I learn. Many people spend 20-30 years studying karate or some chinese kung fu style and still couldn't fight off an overexcited mugger. I suspect with your ****y attitude you fall into this category. Would you care to name some of these supposed famous chinese (LOL) gung fu people you trained with? Your claims are otherwise internest hokey.

As a final word of advise - it is not how long you train but what you put into it that counts. Frank Shamrock, one of the most successful NHB fighters of all time had no formal martial arts training until the age of 20. He was a UFC champion just 6 years later, and one of the most recognisable and feared martial artsists in the world by the age of 28. And he could give 99.9% of traditional martial artists (especially you ignorant and arrogant kung fu talking type) a spanking no matter how long they trained. So the I 'trained 20 years in tai-chi and Chinese monkey dance' is not impressive at all, especially combined with your childish manner.

Later.

rogue

09-28-2002, 12:26 PM

Ultimate you may want to look into David's school. (http://www.angelfire.com/ny/sanshou/) before going off.

firepalm

09-28-2002, 01:22 PM

lkfdmc said
"As long as people think that doing forms is training hard, don't spar full contact, never test their skills against alive resisting opponent's, present David Carradine granola philosophy as TCMA and generally act like Chinese martial art is some holistic new age yoga, people are gonna laugh at us and with GOOD REASON

Respect is earned, not demanded"

Very well put lkfdmc, it never ceases to amaze me how many so called traditional Chinese 'martial artists' think that doing essentially just forms training will make them into fighters. I've been to tournaments where such traditional guys stand around make comments about how their style could beat kickboxers or grapplers, when in actuality they never spar & try to see if these skills work or not. Laughible! Just my two cents!

Once again lkfdmc well put!

lkfmdc

09-30-2002, 06:21 AM

"ultimate fighter" = ultimate troll boy, case closed

Souljah

09-30-2002, 08:25 AM

I dont see why every1 regards you as a better fighter and not just a good practitioner of the arts, it may be the intention of many 'MARTIAL' arts in damaging or killing your opponent as quickly as possible, and for this people get respect.....?
You can respect a mans actions or you can respect his words.

I'm more interested in the ART more than the MARTIAL side of it, admittedly I did first get into it to learn how to defend myself against your regular street fighter, but as you go deeper, reading concepts/philosophies etc, you learn that the lifestyle, not something you learn so you can go and beat the crap out of someone just to gain respect.
Again, admittedly some kung fu styles sole purpose of their design was based on this notion. Many were made in order to serve as a superior style at the time and protect those whome the practitioner wished to protect (eg white crane)
But my view is use it when its neccessary, otherwise it is there to help you gain physical, mental and (if you believe) 'spiritual' health.
This is how it has been since the times of bodhidharma and even before.....

You can compete, fight and gain respect by those who witness you..... but do 'I' really want respect?

lkfmdc

09-30-2002, 10:18 AM

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts original purpose was to fight, ie combat, ie KILL, claims to the contrary are a form of political correctness and a result of attempts to assimilate and render harmless martial artists in Chinese society.

Can martial arts be used for health and self development? Yes, clearly so, and if you want to use it for that then good luck to you, best wishes.

Just don't act like those that are still doing the MARTIAL are somehow not in line with the tradition.

jmd161

09-30-2002, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Jeff,

I don't remeber that particular incident, but it does sound like something the young me would do. It wouldn't be the first time the young ****y sifu in the making would give in to temptation. Remember, when you came on to the scene I was already 10 years into the training. So it would make sense you were at a disadvantage at that time. Now, it might be different. Maybe. :D

Yeah maybe :rolleyes:

You've gotten better over the years that's really scary!!!:D

jmd161:)

SifuAbel

09-30-2002, 11:17 AM

"Just don't act like those that are still doing the MARTIAL are somehow not in line with the tradition.
"

AMEN!!!

jeff, ;)

dre_doggX

09-30-2002, 12:15 PM

Kungfu has alot of mystery, even though Iam sure alot of people have the ideal that Kungfu is more advance, its half-spooky, most people are like "Why bother" kungfu is not a pretty, posterboy or girl, its more like a ruffin, and spooky guy.and mad genius, powerful weird person, but a weird person, so knowone wants anything to do with him, if they can get the some application from another martial art, which I admit they could. Most know that Kungfu is the Anscetor of the Main Martial arts systems of Asain,Taekwondo, Judo,karate, Jujutsu etc.

BUt Why take so many non-kungfu styles when you can take one kungfu style, and get the some, if not more.

I know this in my mind no to be true but I still in my heart I tend to speculate, the ideal that "KUNGFU IS FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE MARTIAL ARTIST, and DECIDE THAT THEY WANT TO BE MARTIAL ARTIST, and most of the other martial art stills are for people who havent decided whether to be martial artist or not.

or maybe I put it in a nicer way, all the other non Chinese martial arts, are for people who want to get some of the benifeits of being a martial arts , but dont want to become martial artist.

Ofcourse I do not dear say this about Ninjutsu.

and in all I know this isnt true in my mind, but in my heart thats what I think.