BlackTaoist - NHB?

[CD Lee]

This is just a question, so everybody take it easy.

BlackTaoist - I have noticed your passion to use Bagua in real fighting and making it real, etc. This has probably come up before, but have you ever considered NHB competitions while you are still young, and see how the Bagua would do in a NHB format? I don't even know if you are young enough. I know it would not look real classic, but the principles could be applied I would think. What are your thoughts?

Just so you know, this is not a troll NHB vs KF thing. I understand the difference between sport and street. Thanks.

This question could also go out to Tadzio who is a real fighter as well. Tadzio, if you are out there, what are your thoughts on this?

[blacktaoist]

First I answer your first question you ask in the other thread, Did I go down to Park school in NJ? No I didn't, For one I just didn't have the time, and two in my opinion it would be a big waste of my time.

So for now, my not going to fight with theses Park people. They do what they do, I do what I do.



BlackTaoist - I have noticed your passion to use Bagua in real fighting and making it real, etc. This has probably come up before, but have you ever considered NHB competitions while you are still young, and see how the Bagua would do in a NHB format?

Yo I wouldn't mind fighting in a NHA. For one its like real fighting and you can do a lot of Ba Gua techniques, that I know would work in that kind of fighting competition. The only thing I hate about NHA is when the two opponents go to the ground. If I was to ever fight in such a NHB competition, I would have to train my conditioning (breathing)and mindset.

I 've over 50 tapes of NHA, and most of the fighters on these tapes are street fighting in my opinion, there are only a few NHA fighters that apply some martial skills in the ring. But in all, these individuals that fight in these NHA events are real warriors, so I take my hat off to them. (Respect)



BlackTaoist - I have noticed your passion to use Bagua in real fighting and making it real, etc.

I do have a passion for Ba Gua Zhang to be utilizie in real fighting or should I say unrehearse fighting. But the way people up on KFO make it look like is. I go looking for fights. Not true at all, The bottom line is I'm not going to learn from any Ba Gua Zhang teacher that can't apply their $hit. Thats all to it, nothing more , nothing less.

Anyway if not me, I would like to see a good Ba Gua Zhang practitioners fight in a NHA and win. I would think all the theory and applications talk by many Ba Gua people today, somone would have been step a NHA ring.

[CD Lee]

BT, thanks for the reply. I think you made a good move not going to the Park school. I am sure you would have done more than fine, but it could have turned into a very negative situation. Not that you care, but I respect that you did not go, because you did not 'need' to go. Thats it.

I am not farmiliar with the NHA actually. The reason I asked you about NHB, and also mentioned Tadzio, is basically your ages, mindset, and you both practice internal arts. I 'suspect' that Xingyi would have less trouble than Bagua in the sport ring due to the padding on the outside of the gloves and fingers. With all of the palm techniques, maybe it would cause some problems, and maybe get hung up easier on something. Maybe Bagua is better with all those guys rushing in for takedowns. Don't know.

I have noticed in a lot of the pre UFC 20 matches, skilled guys getting tied up while standing at close quarters for quite a while. Many chances to do some explosive small movements if somebody had that skill level.

Also, I don't know how interested you are in getting into all those type fights, before you would be offered a chance to a really nice event where there would actually a lot of interest. Just so a chump like me could watch Bagua for 10 minutes in a sport event!

[GeneChing]

The problem with NHB is simple. It ain't for old people. And I'm getting older by the minute hearing about all this Park/BT stuff. Calm down please before they send in the lawyers on me. That would be a silly way to end the forum here.

[CD Lee]

Gene -

No need to get upset. I thought this was very calm. I said I was GLAD BT did not go. That I respected that. Thats it. No flare-ups on the matter.

I simply asked BT if he ever considered NHB or was young enough. That is a different subject. Not only that, but everbody on the main forum talks about it (NHB) constantly and they go on wild rampages discussing the subject. I actually thought this was very civil.

I also think BT tempered everything down about twenty notches and has been very reserved in his last few comments.

I hope you don't think I am trying to fan any flames here on that volatile subject. I am tired of it too, and all the emotions. Just wanted to move onto something I had already been wondering about for a while now.

I am glad you are interested in keeping all of this civil actually. Good job.

As far as NHB, you hit the nail on the head. Young guy sport no doubt!

[hairywhiteguy]

Do either one of you, or anyone else, have any NHB tapes that you would recommend to watch for learning?

thanx

[CD Lee]

NHB tapes for learning what? Not to be cute, but you can learn from them, but it depends on what you are trying to learn..

You can rent most of the early UFC mathces at most Blockbusters. I think there is a multitude of things you cannot learn from watching them. There are other things if you know what to look for that could help you.

[Tadzio]

Hey Cd, tnx for remembering about me !:D
If I ever thought about fightin NHB? Sure I have. I think any serious CMA guy thought at least once about it. Would I do it? Yes; big time yes, but there are things to consider.
The thing is that NHB events are still very different from a real fight. If you read my article about street fighting on emptyflower you will understand how do I think when it comes to real fights. There's no time for bull****ing or fooling around 'cause your ass is on the line dude. When it comes to streetfighting you gotta be mean, you gotta do something and you gotta do it fast, You gotta hit the other guy hard or else he's gonna hit you first. Do what you have to do and walk away. Simple and effective techniques are a must: go for the eyes, knees, groins, throath. Rules? THERE ARE no rules.
So the first thing you should keep in mind is that although this NHB events such as Pride (my favourite) and UFC are more "real" that others, they still have many rules, and I'm not saying here that this is good or bad (having rules), because that's not the point here, but they do have many rules. Having said this, I want to say that I train for street fighting, for the real deal. Am I good ? Am I bad? Don't know, but I DO my best. So if I want to go into NHB the first thing I gotta do is change my training to fit the rules, and that's an idea I don't like. Second I have to stop doing what I do and spend a few months doing ONLY one thing: training hard, very hard. Those guys out there now, they're pro's, they're not guys that train 2 or 3 times a week; fighting is they're life. I'm not saying that I can't fight those guys, I'm just saying that if you want to fight in those rules, you gotta stop what you're doing and do some specific training. Plus keep in mind that a stret fight happens very fast (usually), and if you go NHB you gotta have stamina, you gotta be ready to rumble for 20, 30 minutes. It's not on my plans to do this now. If I were to pursue a life as a NHB fighter I would do it, but all this trouble just to fight once or twice? Doesn't worth, not for me, because I don't have nothing to prove.
Now, I like fighting, I like testing my skills, and the thing is that I don't have to go NHB... the local parks are good enough for me.:p
Back in Brazil I fought BJJ guys, Taekwondo, Muithay, Karate. In China I worked out if Bagua people (What's up T? :D), Chen style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, XY and others (I'm still waiting for the Sanda guys though).
Hope you guys don't misunderstand me, for CMA are abouyt fighting; that simple. You can't always win, but you have to keep on fighting, keep on training. I get every chance I have here to test my skills: parks, local tournaments, friends... you can't stop, 'cause everybody is taining hard and you gotta train twice as hard!
As for the fighting itself, it wouldn't be diferent than any other fight. Cd, you say it wouldn't look classical, but I don't agree. What is "classical" anyway? Fighting it classical, hiting hard is classical. When it comes to XY you just need the Liuhe to be "classical". There's a great misconception around the Internal MA world: you don't train classical and when you street fight you change to "unclassical mode"., what you should do is "train as you fight and fight as you train"; that's the correct approach.
The most important thing though (in my opinion) is the mind set: like a wild beast, you don't stop, you're a wild animal fighting to take its prey down. Outside, firm, cold and still like a mountain; inside, the beast is free, ready to rock and roll. There's no way you can loose; even if you loose.:)

See you guys around.
T.

[wckf]

Tadizo,

Good post about realism but I somewhat respectfully disagree with one of your points.

Firstly, while I agree that sport fighting and reality fighting is different, mainly different mentality mostly, but I think its probably the most realistic training environment than any other venue.

Sure there are rules but I think any system can be revised to accomodate the rules since the rules are basically no eye gouging, biting, nutt grabbing otherwise why practice any other technique for the streets besides these after all fewer and simpler the technique the more street usable the skill.

Also regarding street fighting scenario, how realistic is it to practice forms, hand to hand, and ancient weapons, since serious fights may start with hands but will mostly end with modern weapons (guns, knifes, bottles ect...) and multiple opponents.

And how about responding to a hit, a cut, a shot. To really train realistcally, you not only need to learn how to dish it out but to take one because that probably what will happen in real encounter.

My point is that no matter how much you train you can't possible train realistically for the streets. The best we can do is to understand this point and realize the limitation of the skill to the environment.

Having said all that, I think the NBH is a good starting point for reality fighting but is definitely not the same.

[Ray Pina]

Some points:

Your training should contain knowledge of how to take and absorb blows.

I don't consider a venue where you can snap someone's arm or leg, or beat them into a bloody pulp, sport. It's not a street fight, but its not tennis either.

If the only rules are no biting, hitting the groin or eye, every martial artist is playing on an even field. Of all the veterans of war I see in Penn Station -- homeless in wheel chairs, on crutches with a single leg, missing arms -- I don't recall one wearing a pirate eye patch. I'm sure they're out there, just from shear numbers, but the point, the eye is not so easy to take: it's small, and on a very mobile part of the body.

Hsing-I I think would do well in this environment: It's compact, powerful and no b*ll$hit. Also, if one aproaches it properly, I don't see why it would have to go 30 mintues. I have never fought more then 3 round fights, but to be honest, I felt like I lost even when I won if it was not stopped before that.

If they don't break up the action, I think a Hsing-I fight should be an opening bell, an engament and either take them out or be taken out.

That's just me. And I'm not there yet. This is just talking about it and my ideals. But one has to start with a goal I guess.

[CD Lee]

Tadzio - Great to hear from you. Very nice post. I agree with you on the 'classical' statements that you made to me. Perhaps I should not have used that verbage. I meant a little 'ugly' more than anything. Not like the movies or a perfect looking form, but I think most people know that.

Yes I have read your article on emptyflower, twice, and it is a very well stated article. Plus, I know where it is coming from and this lends more credibility in my eyes.

Also, regarding what you would have to do to do professional NHB, you are definately correct. I don't know that anybody that acutally seeks or desires a pro NHB career, which is short at best, and done while still young, would take up an internal art that takes a long time to master, and try to use it in that particular venue. A no-bull**** external style is faster to learn, and effective in that arena. So I don't think there will lever be much practicality to a young 22 yr old kid learning Bagua or Xingyi to do NHB. A guy like you develops good skills, and then you have a real life too. Now you have to do NHB well, you have to basically give up everything else you do. Not too practical I know.

WCKF - Interesting point. But I have a thought about your statement. Why should every style have to change their base systems to work within the rules of a sport?

EvolutionFist - Here is why NHB is a sport, even if seem brutal, but less dangerous than boxing(check deaths on boxers for last 30 yrs.)
I agree there is a lot mentally that is different. Then there are the factors that make the mental part so different. NHB is in a controlled environment. If you lose, you may get hurt, but you simply lose. A broken arm, and bloody nose, a busted up hand. No harm done that cannot be fixed. In a street fight, there is hard pavement, walls, and you can die or be maimed permenantly. You can be with your wife or children. They have to watch this. You have a fear that cannot be reproduced in any venue, that you may die in front of them, and they may be brutalized after you are incapacitated or worse. Your mind will have much more tunnel vision, your brain may blank, your muscles may become stiff suddenly. You CANNOT LOSE. This is not an option. Even in sports, in those moments when the person has these thoughts of I cannot lose, they tighten up and choke every now and then, and nothing like family is on the line. Everything is multiplied by ten.

NHB has several advantages mentally that a street fight may not ever have. You know it is going to happen, and on what day and time. You know who you are fighting, and what they are about. You know your kids are at home. This may not sounds like a lot, but I think it sets up a HUGE mental gap in the two types of fights. This is no lecture to you or anybody, just some thoughts I have had over the past year on this particular sugject.

[CD Lee]

EveolutionFist said


If they don't break up the action, I think a Hsing-I fight should be an opening bell, an
engament and either take them out or be taken out.


You know...I could not agree more on this statement! This was Tanks approach, because he was a street fighter. That is how he trained to fight. Fast and hard. That will not get you to the top in a sport, but it works on the streets.

Not just Hsing-I, but all styles. I have a suggestion for a new sport:

How about Street Fight NHB. This is a format is which you have only 30 seconds to win the fight before two other guys enter the ring, and start to help take out the guy they think is losing or is the easiest to take out. That format would put a new spin on what arts are most effective! Laying on your back would not be recommended. Even BJJ guys say they would not go to the guard on the streets, but that is almost all they do in sport fights. Becuase sport fights are not realistic.

Now we are talking about the 'philosophy' of the sport. Why are there martial artists? Do people learn martial arts to fight one person for 30 minutes? I don't think this was ever the intent. It is to use on the battlefield, or on the street/home to protect people. So if the NHB tournaments are to showcase martial arts, they should do so in a way that resmebles conditions that we may encounter on the battlefield or street.

This means, 30 seconds to win or go home, multiple attackers if you can't handle your business quickly. Every so often, a desk and chair could be put in the ring, and nice hard books and such. And...wooden floors like the bare knuckle fighters used to fight on. That is when throwing was allowed, and many won by slamming thier opponent into the floor. We could substitute asphalt for special 'Superfight' matches that even more realistic.

You have no idea who you are fighting, or their styles.

Next, I am going after boxing. :D

[SevenStar]

"How about Street Fight NHB. This is a format is which you have only 30 seconds to win the fight before two other guys enter the ring, and start to help take out the guy they think is losing or is the easiest to take out. That format would put a new spin on what arts are most effective!"

This has already been done. remember WMAC Masters? every 30 seconds or so, they would throw a ninja into the arena that the MA had to fight. too bad it was choreographed :D

[Ray Pina]

CD Lee, I agree with you. I know about the streets. Growing up in Newark as one of the few "white boys", or "pretty boy" as the Puerto Ricans called me, made youth very interesting and fun.

Anyway, I don't think the rules need to be changed Why? Because if laying on your back can stop a true warrior in their tracks, let's just get the palestinians a bunch of pillows and blankets and Isreal will have no choice but to concede.

A warrior will find a way.

A lot of the people in these NHB are young, and because of that their knowledge in skill is not that deep, just brute strenght focused behind raw determination. That's great. Add a little technique and you have more then half the fighters there.

I'm aiming to do the impossible. At 28 I have about 22 years of external experince -- but I sucked. I now almost have 2 years of internal. I truly believe by 30 I will be unstoppable!

[Unmatchable]

I haven't put on mma gloves before (at least not yet), but the look of them seems you can easily do palm strikes because there is no padding on palm meaning you can hit with oure palm unlike fist.

Here is an interesting quote from a jkd friend:


Battle seems so surreal! And we conform to the situation and that is when the training comes in to play and is much appreciated. That is when the reality and truth of your training comes in to play. No more speculation and conformity. Only action and reaction and that is when the truth comes out of your true WAY. Words are only words! This is the WAY of the warrior! And we are all trully warriors like the olden days. Not players in the ring! But truth fighters that seek reality. This and that only a faintness of reality. Reaction and subliminal truth from actual real combat showing the true sense. Alot seems to go out the window in combat and simplicity plays like a warrior poet. The dance some of us understand and conform to. Speculation only being a half truth and preservation of our being coming naturally. Reality sometimes serves a dish cold. But that is reality and it really teaches us the truth! All of our training justly rewarded as due process of combat. This is the true WAY of the warrior! The truth is golden and best shown through action. The beauty of human emotion is played through several avenues and sometimes it gets ugly! You did what you had to do. And I respect that. Most of the time in combat, most of the extra stuff I have learned seems like a toy and the simplicity of JKD speaks like a loud voice saying do the right thing and do it simplistically and economically to preserve my own self ect.

Another one:

It is amazing how martial arts has progressed over the centuries! Alot of Styles actually entertwined in borrowed ways.

We the new generation of Martial Practitioners carrying the torch to the next generation. The style or way irrelevent to the real truth. That we are all on basically the same journey.

As did our Martial forefathers, we must progress our ways and bring a new light into the world of martial arts. Somehow leaving some of our previous warriors beliefs and Techniques behind.

To leave a Great warrior behind is a falsehood for they are each, with there donated way, part of our martial way. They shine through us. I feel it is important to teach people about the diversity and history of martial arts. Not to do so is to stop progress and lock our knowledge.

Martial arts is a tool given to us by our forefathers to better our lives and that is the underlying truth.

Martial Arts was mainly a way to defend yourself efficiently in actual deadly combat with neihboring tribes. Now that the world has changed the inexplicable truth is that violence not only begats violence, but also begats lawsuits, prison time ect.

The truth is that martial arts is still needed just as much as back then. The world is a very violent place. I have had alot of people question martial arts as being a barbaric useless game ect. I usually tell them " It may look dumb until two or three men approach you and your wife and kids, in the parking lot ect. and you are unable to defend them properly. Then you will know the importance of learning martial arts.

To all of you visitors that have the wrong impressions of martial arts. I say to you that it is much more than combat. Enstilling humbleness, caring, respect, virtue, honor,dignity, confidence, loyalty ect. into the properly taught individuals.

There is nothing wrong with martial arts and it's ways. But it is like a gun, In the wrong hands it can do alot of harm. Most of us are not like that and mostly defuse angry and combative people rather than fight. A true warrior will understand that his mind is a much more powerfull weapon.

Some of us go further within ourselves, to find the hidden treasure of internal understanding and elightenment ect. Martial arts can give us many gifts and we must always strive to be better and represent martial arts honorably. We do have a responsibility to ourselves and the ones long forgotten to carry martial arts over the next plateau.

Thank you to all of the great Sifu's out there that have properly trained there students. My sifu is the epitomy of a proper Sifu and I see the wrong ways to teach. The truth never lies, it is just that some of us are blind to it.

[Vapour]

Here are some video clips of MMA fighting from Bullshido.

http://www.bullshido.us/dl_showall.asp?cat_id=53&parent_id=14&parent_name=Videos&sub_name=McDojo+Videos+by+USAWrestler

Click "Bob Sapp" and "MMA Beatdown!"

[Merryprankster]

Some points...

Here are the Pride rules--things you can't do.

Biting

Eye thumbing and eye gouging

Head butting

Attacking the groin

Pulling Hair

Pushing the windpipe with the thumb or finger (s) or squeezing the windpipe with hand

Attacking the back of the head, the spine and/or the medulla (The back of the head is the centerline of the head and the area around the ears are not considered to be the back of the head.)

Using the elbows to attack the head or the face

Stalling or failure to initiate any offensive or defensive attack.

That's it. If these types of rules are too restrictive, I don't know what to say. FWIW, finger breaking is usually illegal and when it's not specifically mentioned, it's generally considered unsportsmanlike.

Secondly, if you are interested in fighting in these events, don't worry about UFC or Pride. There are tons of amateur and low level professional (not distinguishable from amateur) shows that need fighters in all different weights. The argument that "these guys are pros" is kinda bogus. Your years of experience (or lack thereof) will net you nothing in terms of where you get to start--that is, the UFC or Pride or some of the other larger shows aren't going to take you off the bat. Only your ring results matter. When you've demonstrated that, well if you want to keep going, feel free.

I'd also have to disagree with the idea that most fighters are just "streetfighting." Plenty of technique.

Finally, CD Lee--guard is one of the best defensive options on the ground. Nobody just walks out and pulls guard anymore--and that's what we're talking about when we're saying we "wouldn't go to guard." If I am taken down and can't immediately get back up or find a way to reverse, guard's my best option. And guard is not necessarily the closed legged hug-fest. There is guard and then there is guard, you know?

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

I recently saw on this website in kentucky http://www.4smma.com on their forum that they are having some kind of cage match there. i wouldnt mind teaming up with someone like bt to go there and bring a bagua internal fighting team to train together and support each other. practice some ground work and take downs, but main game is to keep standing.

my problem is i dont have someone to train and practice with here in DC area. i have experience with training with bjj, wrestling, wing chun and jkd people in virginia beach.

i dont have anyone to go with me there and i wont do it alone.

ma

[Merryprankster]

Are you looking for a Ba Gua team? Can't help you. A fight team? Khun Kao might be able to hook you up.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

... a psychedelic gangster, nor one of kesey's pranksters. who is khun kao?

[brassmonkey]

Khun Kao teaches Muay Thai I think in D.C. he posts on the kickboxing section of mma.tv Bagua fighting teams sounds pretty cool, I've been wanting to see some bagua fighting, hopefully I can scrape up enough $ to get some of the tapes on BT's site or even better yet fight a bagua guy.

[Phrost]

Seeing Bagua successful in MMA would be cool. If you get around to it, get video of the event and I'll host it for you at Bullshido.

[CD Lee]

Wow. This is an old thread...looks like the embers were still burning! Since this came up...

Merrypranskter said:


Finally, CD Lee--guard is one of the best defensive options on the ground. Nobody just walks out and pulls guard anymore--and that's what we're talking about when we're saying we "wouldn't go to guard." If I am taken down and can't immediately get back up or find a way to reverse, guard's my best option. And guard is not necessarily the closed legged hug-fest. There is guard and then there is guard, you know?



You know, I agree with that. But you know what I mean when I say I sat through many boring hug fests. We all did. I like the guard and think it is quite useful in the right situation, even in the street or bar, in the right situation. You know NOTHING works good all the time. It has its place certainly.

So does holding and clinching, but these are illegal in the SPORT of boxing, because it is not a street fight, and that would be incredibly boring. Watching guys in the guard for 30 minutes like Royce and Shamrock is boring. It just is.

In fact, what do the rules of Boxing tell us as observers? Hit people in the nutz to win fights. How funny would boxers look if they all had to guard their jewels for 12 rounds? Also, if you face a boxer in a street fight, HOLD him, clench, and definately head but him in the face while you are holding or kicking him in the nads. But that is not sport anylonger or boxing.

NHB definately has evolved over the years, and has taken on a certian style if you will, that works well under those conditions. I think it is a great sport just like boxing.

Anyways, I still want to see top 10 SUMO guys get in the ring and wreak some havoc. They would not beat everybody all the time, but their fair share some of the time.

[jun_erh]

I just ff through alot of the hugging

Also, in a "street fight" how would YOU react if someone blatantly hit you in the nuts? If you were still standing, you'd probably return the favor or worse (is anything worse?) Unless you really hate and want to kill someone, there are even rules of conduct for a streetfight, similar to NHB rules. Personally, I don't think I'd feel like a won if I had to resort ot eye gouging.

[CD Lee]

Jun,

I agree. I think I said this in another post, that I personally would have to be driven by real FEAR, like a cornered animal in genuine fear of my life, before I could bring myself to try and gouge into an eye socket or bite someone in the face, etc.

There are rules on the street I agree, but you better figure out real quick which ones are being used!!!

[Crimson Phoenix]

There's only one rule in the streets: do what it takes to walk (run) away safe and sound... hehehehehhe

honor or feeling of victory are not part of the equation :D