Good Wingchun, is there such a thing?

[red5angel]

I hear a lot of crap about it being ok to do it differently on these forums all the time. About how there are several ways to do one thing and that is ok (paste smiling dimple faced suburban house wife here). Some people may even go to such an extent as to say that no matter how you are doing it, that's ok to since it is each to his own right?

WRONG. How many ways are there to fly an airplane? Would you want your navy fighter pilot teaching the guy who is flying you and 250 other people to Chicago next week to fly his way? How about vice versa? Would you want that airline pilot to be teaching the fighter pilot how to fly in combat? That's the difference to me, and that is why it isn't always ok to have a lot of variation and discrepancy.

If you want to be a navy pilot you fly a navy fighter plane, if you want to be an airline plot you fly an airliner.

Lets skip all the crap about getting bland and drying up blah blah blah, or this person learnt it from that person blah blah blah. Lets also skip the This person does it and it works for him blah blah as well. Not all things are created equal.

[pvwingchun]

Red5, please explain further. Are you talking about the mechanics of the movements relating to body position and structure or the forms and the order of the movements and the way in which they are "performed".:confused:

[yenhoi]

I think your way off here red. Like, way off.

Well, depending, depending on why you train. If you use the WC method of training to fight, then your so wrong its funny, because good priciples are good principles, on that note:

Theres another WC thread about WC's mother art, it would be interesting someday in the future to compare all the WC 'lineages' out there to (if that pans out) the so-called mother art or arts.

Also, I really doubt that the WC you are learning today, or that any of us are learning, is the exact 'art' trained in the same fashion as it was 'originally.' Even if it is, by some freak chance, there will never be any real way to tell. The art that your learning, and most of us Im sure, was probably not even 'called' wing chun until recently, each time it was taught and passed on, it probably had its own little name, like, Juans Kung Fu, or Yip Man Kung Fu.

If your training to DO Wing Chun, then hell, sure you can perfect it, it can be good, but all you will really have is a random ass chinese name for 'Weird ballet.'

How effective you are (at fighting) determines how 'good' your wing chun is.

[old jong]

The envelope please!.....(sound of paper ripping,suspense in the audience!) And the best the best Wing Chun is!..........;)

[hunt1]

ONLY MY WING CHUN IS BEST! Only I have the formula for the secret sauce ! And I'll never tell .bawhahahahah

[rubthebuddha]

actually, hunt? i stole your cookbook. sorry to say, but just because you sprinkle some johnny's on your wing chun before practicing doesn't mean it's the best.

[vingtsunstudent]

well ellaine gave me all of the soup nazis recipes so unfortunately i'm the best.
vts

[anerlich]

I guess it depends on whether you regard the art as "one size fits all", or something that each individual tailors to his own body type or mentality.

I guess it also depends whether you think everyone should have the same attitudes you do to everything.

I'm glad we have a spread of different opinions, and that many/most of them differ from that of red5angel.

[Wingman]

WRONG. How many ways are there to fly an airplane?

There are a thousand and one ways to fly an airplane. In the same manner, there a thousand and one ways to do wing chun. There are many ways to solve a mathematical problem; but you still arrive at the same answer. When you do chi sao (or fighting for that matter), you are presented with a problem. Just like a mathematical problem, there is only one answer; but many ways to arrive at the answer.

[straight blast]

How many ways are there to fly an airplane? Would you want your navy fighter pilot teaching the guy who is flying you and 250 other people to Chicago next week to fly his way?

Um...in my immediate family there are four pilots. One has 30years experience, another 12 years, another 20 years and the last is training for his license.

That said none of them fly even remotely similar...but neither have they had any problems doing it. Bad analogy.

[taltos]

I have always thought of Wing Chun as a system. By this I mean there are exact principles, concepts, and strategies, or whatever vocabulary you choose to use to contain the depth and breath of information contained therein. Obviously, in direct application there will could be variance in technique. If I'm 1.5 feet taller than my opponent, I will most likely be executing a disproportionate amount of middle and low gate techniques vs. high gate techniques. However, even in application, I will never violate any of the founding principles.

I also believe that there is a difference in EXPRESSING my Wing Chun and TEACHING my Wing Chun. I should never teach "my" Wing Chun in the first place. My body type, my energetics, all suit ME, but not necessarily anyone I may one day teach. I have to know the system, inside and out, in order to make sure that I am passing on the art of Wing Chun itself and not "Levi's Wing Chun." I know of several Masters, and I'm sure there are more, that chose not to demonstrate for this exact reason... they don't want people imitating them, they want people learning the system.

Simply put: I want my Wing Chun to be the best Wing Chun that I am capable of, but I also want to learn the ART, not a copy of a copy of a copy.

I am choosing not to comment on which system is best because that's something that is right now decided on more on the basis of fame of instructor and personal opinion than by analyzing system training and methods of operation (not everyone does this, but enough to make discussion of "best" moot). As such, stating "Wing Chun System A" is the best is the same as saying "Paganism is the best religion" or "The Libertarians are the best political party." No good, and no true friendly exchange, can occur from this. I know what's best for me, and that's all I'm really worried about. If you are happy where you are, and you have a genuine open mind (meaning you may never find anything better, and you may change your mind tomorrow), then fantastic. That's all we can do anyway.

-Levi

[kj]

Wow, Levi.

I may disagree with you on something tomorrow, but I'm in mighty agreement with you today.

Thanks for expressing your idea, and with such clarity.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[aelward]

r5a writes:
> WRONG. How many ways are there to fly an airplane? Would
> you want your navy fighter pilot teaching the guy who is flying
> you and 250 other people to Chicago next week to fly his way?
> How about vice versa?

I just love r5a's analogies. These days, many people go to flight schools, but they don't all come out as if they had been made by cookie cutters. There will always be people who are more attentive, smarter, more dedicated, etc. The most important part is what they get out of training.

I certainly doubt someone serious about learning who had left a crappy flight school and had only been at good school for a couple of months would be spouting off on internet forums about how said new school was the best; I would think they might take advantage of all that good teaching to be more constructive with their time.

[Frank Exchange]

red,

You had been getting so much more open minded, I found myself agreeing with a lot of what you were saying regarding structure, precision, power generation vs. speed etc.

You had started listening to Merryprankster, and investigating other ways of doing things.

Then you had to spoil it all with this. :rolleyes:

The fact is, Wing Chun is based on several important concepts and principles. But, people are different, and will implement and teach these concepts and principles in different ways.

Wong Shun Leung taught and fought in a different fashion to his teacher Yip Man. His wing chun interpretation was different to William Cheung, which is different to Yip Chun and Yip Chin, which is different to Leung Ting, which is no doubt different to Kenneth Cheung.

That they are different does not mean that they are wrong, or that they have somehow "strayed" from the "one true path". If there was one perfect way of doing things, we would all be doing it!.

But, people are different, have different strengths and weaknesses, mental capacity, reaction time, size, weight, reach, energy levels. Some are more defensive, others more aggresssive.

I am WSL lineage, but I know that it is possible to be a good fighter if you studied WT, or Kamon, or any other lineage. I prefer to study the WSL way because it makes sense to ME in terms of its simplicity and directness. That does not mean it will work for everyone.

The measure of Good Wingchun (tm) is not how it compares against some one "true" interpretation, because such a thing does not exist. It is that it works for YOU.

If you dont agree with this, then you should be training to make every move you do exactly like Yip Man, with no room for change.

[couch]

...how are we comparing these styles?

Just one facet as suggested is to compare the Sil Lum Tao. In this case, just because one person does their Tan Sau at chest height, and the another at waist height doesn't mean that if I throw a punch, that the other person gets hit in the face.

Wing Chun is a scientific art. It is a physics art. And like all martial arts...it is a PERSONAL ART.

If someone can teach me the centerline theory, offer me sensitivity training, forms, weapons, etc. ...then I can take that knowledge and apply it to how it works for me.

Just because the foundation of your house is made of the same concrete as mine, doesn't mean that your house and mine look the same. Yet, in their own ways or style, they (yes I'm talking about the houses!) still function extemely well.