For the VTM Shaolin experts

[scuba steve]

Gentlemen (Richard and Chango),

Master Loewenhagen has stated that the VTM staff and Chango have well over 20 years each of Shaolin systems experience, in addition to their backgrounds in Moy Yat Wing Chun, Tae Kwon Do and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. As such I would consider you then to have a strong amount of expertise in Shaolin.

I would be quite interested then in hearing about which Shaolin arts the 3 seeds of Wing Chun namely Tan Sau, Bong Sau and Fook Sau are derived from.

I will also add that I have no background in Shaolin systems myself, which is why I defer to you gentlemen. From the books, videos, movies and still photographs of Shaolin arts I have not seen the "goat gripping stance", chung choy battle punches or the 3 seeds displayed in Shaolin systems such as 18 Lohan. Perhaps I've missed them.

If you could refer me to which arts to look at for these elements of Shaolin DNA I would appreciate it. Then I can go do some further looking on my own to find these key DNA markers for Wing Chun within these Shaolin systems.

Thanks in advance!

[planetwc]

Interesting question Steve,

My followup question to either you or the VTM folks is, what kind of documentation is there on the existence of Yat Chum Dai Si as a person within the Shaolin community?

In doing web searches for that particular name, I only find reference to it from Wing Chun websites and not from Shaolin related websites. Isn't it rather odd that the 22nd generation grandmaster is not mentioned by any other southern shaolin school by this name?

For example the Shaolin Do history (http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/index.shtml)s tates that Su Kong Tai Djin was the last Fukien Shaolin temple grandmaster.

http://www.angelfire.com/ky/shaolindo/grandmastersukong.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ky/shaolindo/history.html

[Chango]

Hello Scuba steve.
please read my post at " I want to know about HFY" these "seeds" came about from understanding proper time and space according to the human body.

Chango (SGS) :D

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Chango
Hello Scuba steve.
please read my post at " I want to know about HFY" these "seeds" came about from understanding proper time and space according to the human body.

Chango (SGS) :D

So the "3 seeds" of WC don't come from Shaolin; but from understanding proper time and space according to the human body?

[Hendrik]

Interesting Question Steve and Dave,

I have a few questions which I hope the expert explain also.


A,

In the book Complete WC, it wrote that (based from Hoffman?)

"A Jee Shim Wing Chun practitioner will not face his opponent squarely, and one is advised to " Teng Nuo Yee Shun Shuok" (Rise up Jump about, and shift quickly)."

How is this " Rise up and Jump about and shift quickly type " of art (which is using the same " Teng Nuo..." concept as today's Mt. Soong Shao Lin's TaiTzu type Long fist concept) is the root of WC as one magazine article claim? This seems to be very different compare with today's WCK.


Doesn't Tan Sau Ng or Yat Chan has already modified the shao lin art to a superior WCK 300 years ago in WingChunTong ? But then how come Jee Shim WC still doing similar things as Mt. Soong Shao Lin today? So what has Tan Sau Ng or Yat Chan creates? Where is the WCK within the TaiTzu type Long fist?


B,

On the other hand, there is Southern Shao Lin which passed down by Buddhist Monk.

http://members.lycos.nl/saolim/


Master Sik was the 49th generation of Shao Lin...

Please explain which Shao Lin is Yat Chan from?


Thanks in advance.

[Chango]

Wingman,
Keep in mind proper time and space according to the human structure was realized through shaolin practice. So we cannot just say that it came from shaolin movement X and Y! I would have had to been there when the Time and space paradigm was realized. Proper Time and Space as the reference helps us realize what is real. The first of the 10 wisdoms would be "Sic" or knowlege. We use this to help us eliminate suffering. We are all affected by time and space and energy. You cannot be seperate from these things. Time space and energy is a constant. I hope you see the logic flow here. I hope this clears things up for you.



Hendrik,

Hendrik wrote:
How is this " Rise up and Jump about and shift quickly type " of art (which is using the same " Teng Nuo..." concept as today's Mt. Soong Shao Lin's TaiTzu type Long fist concept) is the root of WC as one magazine article claim? This seems to be very different compare with today's WCK.

--Before I go into discussions with you about what is shaolin and what is not. I have to ask you where you draw your shaolin knowlege? I have practiced various forms of shaolin kung fu since the age of 5. (my father was my first teacher) I have been doing Lohan quan since my teens. Along with various kicking technques and extensive Chin na. I also play contemporary wushu and tan tui for physical fitness (which draws alot of it's movements from northern shaolin) I also know routines with long weapons and short weapons and flexible. So this all adds up to now 26 years of practice and expereince. Again I like to discuss on the basis of experience and not "I read this somewhere"As my frame of reference. But at the same time I will take it for what it is worth. Of course you know my bio when it comes to WCK. So know you know me. so I need to know who are you? where do you draw your knowlege?

I would also have to address your asking about "Today's WCK" I'm unclear on what you mean by this. I find that HFY and Chi Sim could not be put in this catagory in any way shape of form. If you are talking about the WCK that has the terms Tan,bong, Fook. I have to say that form what I understand Chi sim does not use these terms and HFY has a very precise formula that defines what we call Tan ,bong ,fook. In fact if it does not fit the formula (Proper time and space) we do not recognize it as any of these terms. I hope you understand when I say "what you call"Tan ,bong and fook. I would not consider it to be the same thing. So by this alone I cannot say that HFY or Chi sim will fit into your "todays WCK" box. That being said I can say that we use the same words but I don't this we speak the same language. so to speak.

So before we go any further let's lay the ground work and find a comon language to eliminate any miscomunications. I really do not wish to run you off like I did on our last thread. :rolleyes:

It's nothing personal but when challenged I like to qualify the person before engaging. I do value my time and energy.

Chango (SGS) :cool:

:cool:

[Train]

I found some info for Yaat Chum Dai Si. I'm not sure if that's what your looking for planetwc.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/founders/founders_yatchum.shtml

[Andreas Hoffman]

Dear Hendrik,

Please, let out my family from these kind of discussions. We only like to share what our ancestors teached us. The article from "Complete wing chun" and all translations are from my friend Robert Chu.
Once again, Hendrik, please let out my Chi Sim family in your
historical/political discussions.

Thank you.

Andreas Hoffmann

[planetwc]

Hey Train,

Thanks, I'm aware of Wing Chun website references to Yat Sum.
I don't find other references outside by either local Mt Heng references, Shaolin temple references or Chan buddhism references.

http://www.shinranworks.com/hymns/shotokuhosan1.htm

http://qigong.hypermart.net/Mount-heng_2.htm

http://www.askasia.org/VISIBLE_TRACES/maps/mp12.html

Again, no reference to Yat Chum Um Jee or Yat Chum Dai Si.

Try a google search to see what I mean. Pan Nam (a Wing Chun master) is the only other reference for this name, it would seem that there would be a reference to Yat Chum in either Chan or Shaolin history given the importance of the the Mt Heng temples.


Originally posted by Train
I found some info for Yaat Chum Dai Si. I'm not sure if that's what your looking for planetwc.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/founders/founders_yatchum.shtml

[reneritchie]

Dave - FWIW, in his Chinese article with Pan Nam, author Law did try to "prove" the existance of Yat Chum Um Jee (Convent Founder Speck of Dust). He went through a rather length spiel on Shaolin generational names and claimed Yat was one of them, along with Yat Niem (One Thought, a well known name, though I can't remember offhand if it was historical or legendary - Hendrik?) I gave it to a Chinese historical friend of mine who found it confusing and unsupported. I'm not aware of any non-WCK based references either, however.

Andreas - I think if Chi Sim WCK is to be left out of the discussion, it should be left out by all parties. It's difficult to discuss around it if everytime there is a HFY reference there seems inexplicably to be an attachment to Chi Sim. As you know, I believe every art should be able to stand on its own, and while cross-checking is always valuable, none should have to lean on another.

Hendrik - I think Chi Sim WCK is a very well established art, with roots easily found in China, and many sources of information to corroborate. I also think that, if anything has a shot at being Shaolin WCK, Chi Sim is the one. It has the mechanics, the power generation, and the footwork patterns that closely match what is classically considered to be Southern Shaolin (and I think your comments point to that). Likewise, its terminology, its historical references, etc. are consistent with this thesis, which so far has not been the case with any other branch I'm aware of (others usually claim to be some 'new' shift or thinking from Shaolin, and not Shaolin as it traditionally was). So, to echo Andreas' point, I think its better not to mix the branch in when discussing other WCK.

RR

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Andreas Hoffman
Dear Hendrik,

Please, let out my family from these kind of discussions. We only like to share what our ancestors teached us. The article from "Complete wing chun" and all translations are from my friend Robert Chu.
Once again, Hendrik, please Similar with you I would want VTM let out my Cho/Yik Kam family in ChiSim and HFY historical/political discussions.



Thank you.

Andreas Hoffmann




HI Andreas,


Great to know your comment about the translation of your Kuen Kuit.



All this discussion about Technical origin begin with....

Richard wrote that " For the next Century, both Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun fighters were trained and employed secretly.......
The Second phase of Wing Chun development, Modification and Public Awareness....... Yip Man, Gu Lao..... Others lineages include Pao Fa Lien, Yuen Kay San, Pan Nam, Cho Family...." ---- pg 34, Sep/Oct 2001, Kungfu magazine.


Similar with you, Andreas, I would also like for others to let out my Cho/Yik Kam family. That is why I discuss here.



Thank you

Hendrik Santo

[Hendrik]

Chango,

"--Before I go into discussions with you about what is shaolin and what is not. I have to ask you where you draw your shaolin knowlege? I have practiced various forms of shaolin kung fu since the age of 5. (my father was my first teacher) I have been doing Lohan quan since my teens. Along with various kicking technques and extensive Chin na. I also play contemporary wushu and tan tui for physical fitness (which draws alot of it's movements from northern shaolin) I also know routines with long weapons and short weapons and flexible. So this all adds up to now 26 years of practice and expereince. Again I like to discuss on the basis of experience and not "I read this somewhere"As my frame of reference. But at the same time I will take it for what it is worth. Of course you know my bio when it comes to WCK. So know you know me. so I need to know who are you? where do you draw your knowlege? "


First of all your background in Chinese Martial art is sincerely respected.

For who am I that is not important, If you are interested about me there are simple bio of me in Rene's articles. If you think that is not enough, let say, I have studied various kind of Martial arts since 1970 since I am from ASIA. as for Shao Lin, I am a student of a Chan monk with Fujian Southern Shao Lin root. As for Chan, I have two Chan monks as teachers, one from the South and one from the North both are elderly in Sangha eventhough from different lineages of Chan. On other hand, my grandfather is the native of Poo Tien area of Fujian which some consider there is a Shao Lin temple there. .. Since you ask, I have to respect your question. So, just briefly touch based here.


It is my belive that if it is a Fact in the past, then disregard of who present it, it will be well respected. As the WCK saying said that
" learning has no senior or junior, he who master the art is the sifu" I like this saying because it is beyond age and race and fair.
So, for me, bio is not important.


As for knowlege, Chango, in the Chinese martial art family tradition, there are plenty of collection of classical writings.
Say, if one sees " Tong Nou Shan Chaan" that is Shao Lin.
If one sees " Peng Lui Chi An" one knows it is TaiChi.
If one sees " Lay Lau Hoi Song" one knows that is WingChun...
So, there are alots of these flowing around in Asia.
And Shao Lin's Tong Nou Shan Chaan obviously very different from WingChun's Lay Lou Hui Song.

As I said before, if one knows how to read Classical Chinese there are alots problems solved. The signatures are there.
The Key is in Classical Chinese, alots of answer are there.
I sincerely encourage you to learn that language.




" I would also have to address your asking about "Today's WCK" I'm unclear on what you mean by this."

Today's WCK is about WCK we see today. Is this the same with 40years ago? 100years ago?...
See, there were photographs pictures about WCK 40 years ago. There are writting about WCK 100years ago.... So, we need to look at which period of WCK. and every period of WCK.


"find that HFY and Chi Sim could not be put in this catagory in any way shape of form.
If you are talking about the WCK that has the terms Tan,bong, Fook. I have to say that form what I understand Chi sim does not use these terms "



Since Brother Andreas has post to keep his family out of discussion, we need to honor his request.
So, here on, I suggest we Keep Chi Sim out of our discussion.


"and HFY has a very precise formula that defines what we call Tan ,bong ,fook.
n fact if it does not fit the formula (Proper time and space) we do not recognize it as any of these terms. I hope you understand when I say "what you call"Tan ,bong and fook. I would not consider it to be the same thing. So by this alone I cannot say that HFY or Chi sim will fit into your "todays WCK" box. That being said I can say that we use the same words but I don't this we speak the same language. so to speak. "


Chango, you are a good guy

what if WCK's signature is more than " Tan Bong Fook" language?
it is not in the name but in the concept or operation?

For example, The White Crane's water element hand looks like a Tan Sau, it flips also. But it that the WCK's Tan?

Have you think about that?

On the other hand, In Chan, it is about Smash the Space into pices. So, the Concept of Space and time doesn't reflex Chan. IMHO.

[Geezer]

Hendrik wrote
Today's WCK is about WCK we see today. Is this the same with 40years ago? 100years ago?...
See, there were photographs pictures about WCK 40 years ago. There are writting about WCK 100years ago.... So, we need to look at which period of WCK. and every period of WCK.


So your saying for example that,say Yip Man Wing Chun looks exactly how it did when Yip Man practiced it.:confused:

Do you think that it may have evolved slightly:confused: with all the different people that are playing it now.

Leung Ting look's nothing like Moy Yat,William Cheung looks nothing like Victor Kan and Tsui Sheung Tin looks nothing like Hawkins Cheung.
These are all Yip Man students but they all look different:confused:

Sheldon ;)

[yuanfen]

If Andreas wants ji shim left out of the discussions- that is understandable. But Hendrik is not the one who in public started with
a lineage story passed off as history.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

As quoted:Richard wrote that " For the next Century, both Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun fighters were trained and employed secretly.......
The Second phase of Wing Chun development, Modification and Public Awareness....... Yip Man, Gu Lao..... Others lineages include Pao Fa Lien, Yuen Kay San, Pan Nam, Cho Family...." ---- pg 34, Sep/Oct 2001, Kungfu magazine.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hardly history- except as a specific lineage's story. I dont know the motions of ji shim- so I dont discuss it.
Modification again. Modified wing chun- similar to the TWC thesis.

BTW, Rene seems to think that the slt didnt exist till the red junks.
I disagree- but neither of us has time machine for certification.
I think that the weapons and some additional fighting applications
were added in the red junk stage. Different inferences based on different premises.

[reneritchie]

Hi Joy,

> BTW, Rene seems to think that the slt didnt exist till the red junks. I disagree-

And so does Hendrik, and that's great. IMHO, mature, professional adults should be able to disagree in a respectful, even mutually beneficial manner. I certainly leave room for the possibility that SLT was created prior to the Red Junk, I just can't find it prior to that so far. Same way I leave room for the possibility that it's all Shaolin, even if I can't reconcile it at the moment. The more intelligent, passionate people sharing their good faith ideas purely for the well being of our art, the better, IMHO.

RR

[planetwc]

Hey Chango,

Good to see your response. By the way I purchased the VTM friendship seminar tape which had the public unveiling of HFY.
Benny Meng demonstrated the first set of Hung Fa Yi, after I think Marty Goldberg did the TWC first set and Jeremy did the Meng version of Ip Man Bil Jee. What was interesting to me was the similarity between the two forms and movements of William Cheung's Wing Chun (as demonstrated by Marty) and Hung Fa Yi (as demonstrated by Benny Meng).

And by the way I worked out with a Hung Fa Yi student during one of our Wing Chun camps many years ago. There was no mention of Time and Space, nor seeming difference in his approach to the Chi Sao platform. He just rolled like everyone else.

By the way, when one performs the Hung Fa Yi SLT, as there is no opponent, where does time and space come into play and where are the differences between what you are doing structurally and what one of William Cheung's students does with his sets? As I believe you folks have also hosted William himself to the VTM.

Thanks and regards,

David Williams


Originally posted by Chango
Hello Scuba steve.
please read my post at " I want to know about HFY" these "seeds" came about from understanding proper time and space according to the human body.

Chango (SGS) :D

[Savi]

Originally posted by planetwc
Hey Chango,....

And by the way I worked out with a Hung Fa Yi student during one of our Wing Chun camps many years ago. There was no mention of Time and Space, nor seeming difference in his approach to the Chi Sao platform. He just rolled like everyone else.....


Thanks and regards,

David Williams



Hi David,
I know your response is directed towards Chango, but I am wondering what your question is regarding the above quote.

Thanks,
-Savi.

[planetwc]

Savi,

No question, just an observation of Hau Chuen Saan Sau regarding Hung Fa Yi and Chi Sao. I've seen the video of Hung Fa Yi at the VTM, I've felt Hung Fa Yi hands and I've not seen a difference. Personal observation for what it's worth (which isn't much). :p

Chango was curious about opinion regarding HFY (Rene's opinion that is), I merely offered mine.

Regards,

David


Originally posted by Savi


Hi David,
I know your response is directed towards Chango, but I am wondering what your question is regarding the above quote.

Thanks,
-Savi.

[planetwc]

Ok and "time and space" are just part of the 3 stages of Chan meditation practice. So you are saying then that Tan, Fook and Bong are physical manifestations of stage 2 meditation and not something derived from one of the other Shaolin meditation forms like Diamond fist.

=========================================
http://www.dharmadrum.org/chan/chan.asp?NumID=585
=========================================

Three Stages of Chan Meditation

Stage 1:

To balance the development of body and mind in order to attain mental and physical health. Various methods of physical exercise for walking, standing, sitting, and reclining are used. They are unique exercise methods combining Indian Hatha Yoga and Chinese daoyin (exercises for channeling internal energy), and can bring physical health as well as results in meditation. Thus, one who practices Chan well will definitely have a strong body capable of enduring hardship. The mind will establish a state of self-confidence, determination, optimism, peace, and stability.

Stage 2:

From the sense of the small "I" to the large "I." When you practice the method of cultivation taught by your teacher, for example, huatou or silent illumination, you will enlarge the sphere of the outlook of the small "I" until it coincides with time and space . The small "I" merges into the entire universe, forming a unity. Since you have joined and become one with universe, the world of your own body and mind no longer exists. What exists is the universe, which is infinite in depth and breadth. You yourself are not only a part of the universe, but also the totality of it.

Stage 3:

From the large "I" to no "I." Chan is inconceivable. It is neither a concept nor a feeling. Because Chan is a world where there is no self, if there is still any attachment at all in your mind, there is no way you can harmonize with Chan. Therefore, Chan is the territory of the wise, and the territory of the brave. Not being wise, one would not believe that after abandoning all attachments another world could appear before him. Not being brave, one would find it very hard to discard everything he has in this life - careers, knowledge, and material things.

In short, the purpose of Chan practice is to see your self-nature, and this insight is called "enlightenment." One might encounter all kinds of good experiences, physical and mental, which enhance your confidence and faith in your practice and in the Dharma, but they are not genuine enlightenment. Genuine enlightenment must be in accord with the principles of Chan: no-form, no-mind, and no-abiding. But even this is not enough. After seeing your self-nature, you need to deepen your experience even further and bring it into maturation. You should have enlightenment experiences again and again and support them with continuous practice.





Originally posted by Chango
Hello Scuba steve.
please read my post at " I want to know about HFY" these "seeds" came about from understanding proper time and space according to the human body.

Chango (SGS) :D

[Train]

Hi Planetwc,

You said that you have touched hands with an HFY member a long time ago, but you did not see the difference between HFYWC and Yip Man WC. Well, how well did you know that HFY member? Did you know his background, as in what else he knew besides HFYWC? just asking?

[Rolling_Hand]

Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jeremy to Hendrik

You’re actions educate me plenty. You forgot to say “Screw you guys, I’m taking my ball and going home.” I remember you doing this a lot on the WCML as well - popping into a discussion from out of nowhere, stating something, not checking to see if you were understood, and then going on vacation so no one could ask you questions publicly. Not everyone is going to like what you say. When someone says "your poop stinks, too" the Chan way is to get huffy and leave? Wow, 10-year-old are enlightened!

((What does Bai Fut have to do with Chan?--from Hendrik)) Maybe you should ask Sifu Hoffmann rather than tell him what you know.

((How Can one be called Chan master when one doesn't have a clue what Chan is.?--from Hendrik)) Maybe you had best get to know people before you start passing judgments on them (and maybe not then, either - everybody eats, everybody poops, and everybody sins).

((What is Iron body Iron palm got to do with Siu Lien Tau?-- from Hendrik))Do you mean Cho Ga Wing Chun doesn’t train iron body or iron palm? You make veiled references to how deep your system trains – do you have no external hei gung training or only internal? Is your path to Buddha-self only a mental activity with no training for hei (qi) – or only partial training for internal without external conditioning?

((What Does Tan Sau Ng got to do with Siu Lien Tau?--from Hendrik)) Without more information on your system I have no idea at this time. So far as I’m concerned, until I know more about Cho Ga, your Wing Chun is at best a modern derivative at least as valid as any other from the time of the Red Boat. Are you qualified to represent your lineage in public? You present yourself as an expert – would your Sifu agree? I ask because I want to know with whom I am dealing. If you are not qualified to speak for your lineage, I would like to communicate/visit with one who is. With new information, I reassess my current views. With the incredible lack of information you’ve shared, in addition to your veiled insults and egotistical actions, I personally have no desire to learn much of anything from you. This doesn’t mean I don’t read your posts looking for valid information – it just means that everything you post is taken with a grain of salt.

Finally, from the gist of your posts, you have been implicitly stating that you have the original Wing Chun for quite a while – and now seem to be moving towards explicit statements. Sifu Robert Chu agrees with you, at least according to his most recent article.
Presuming that you do, indeed, have the original, surely you can explain Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun and how those two arts relate to Cho Ga as well as how all other versions of Wing Chun relate the CS/HFY and Cho Ga. Having seen only the barest of information on your lineage there are a lot of gaps to fill in – especially in the logic flow for the development of Chi Sau and strategy/tactical thought as a beginning.

Oh, wait, you call Chi Sim Weng Chun “hung ga”. Of course, you must know more than Sifu Hoffmann, the successor of his lineage. Since you’re so well versed in Wing Chun, maybe you’d like to explain this conclusion for the less educated masses? You discount HFY and Chi Sim – yet these two families share quite a few similarities… how do you explain the similarities between them while discounting their connections? Why do both of these systems share a Chan paradigm of 3 relationships to understanding reality - Saam Mo Kiu in HFY and Tien Dei Yun in Chi Sim? Why do both arts have dummy, single pole, and double knife training? Why do they share the Luk Dim Bun Kwan term in relation to the pole? Why are they viewed as complete systems in the successor’s eyes? Why do they both make use of single and double rolling arm exercises? You've made plenty of bold statements with little to no support so I’m asking for information to support your claims.

((They have nothing to do with Yik Kam or Cho Family line of WCK. We in the Yik Kam lineage have details evidents for our art and the related mother arts. Yik Kam WCK was /is transmitting directly within the Cho family for past 100 of years . We are certain with who we are.--from Hendrik))
The past 100 years only takes you to the about the time of the Red Boat. What came before? Will you be putting all your cards on the table, discussing history and Wing Chun? The VTM has a book in the works for publication next year – when should we expect yours to be printed?

((Even If Tan Sau Ng master Shao Lin MA, Shao Lin Tai Tzu DNA doesn't fit the DNA of SLT. But White Crane's fit.--from Hendrik))
Your're saying that Shaolin Tai Tzu doesn't fit your family's SLT. First, you need to explain tai tzu completely and note your sources. Currently VTM efforts are directing in other directions but your information will not be ignored. Whatever you might think, the reality is that Sifu Meng, et. al. are constantly re-evaluating working theories in light of new information.

((Bai Fut is a code name of attacking Fut San city not related to Buddhism or Chan or Shao LIn.--from Hendrik))
True but only in your experience. Have you honestly discussed martial arts with Sifu Hoffmann or simply stood in judgment of what he demonstrated one time? Without giving Sifu Hoffmann a chance to discuss his lineage completely, you are doing a disservice to him, Wing Chun, and yourself.

You are also guilty of putting out information without documentation. --from Jeremy R
------------------------------------------------------------------

Hendrik,

Why did you say Chi Sim isn't WCK?

How much do you know about Chi Sim WCK?

How much do you know about Ch'an and WCK?

[planetwc]

How well?

I met him at the 3 day weekend camp and trained with him there.
While we certainly literally lived, ate, slept and trained at that facility it was for a very short time and I would not consider him an acquaintance of any sort.

He indicated his wing chun background was from training with Garrett Gee--apparently very private, low key training at someone's garage (at the time). At the time I do not remember him mentioning the system as "Hung Fa Yi" merely that his lineage was from Garrett. The knowledge I had of that system was what Rene Ritchie had put up on his site back in those days.

My sense was that he did not train any other Wing Chun system.

At the time those folks were very low key.

As an illustration I had emails occasionally from people (due to my website on wing chun) mentioning that they studied a secret Wing Chun style in San Francisco which I probably wasn't aware of. When I asked if they were studying with Garrett Gee, they were quite shocked that I knew that information. :p

So, we rolled, he took part in the activities in the seminar and that was that. There weren't any moments of "WOW what the heck are you doing? Or "Man, that looks/felt different" on either side.

He was a very quite guy and that was about it. Hope that helps.

regards,

David



Originally posted by Train
Hi Planetwc,

You said that you have touched hands with an HFY member a long time ago, but you did not see the difference between HFYWC and Yip Man WC. Well, how well did you know that HFY member? Did you know his background, as in what else he knew besides HFYWC? just asking?

[scuba steve]

Rolling Hand,

How much do YOU know about Chi Sim WCK?

How much do YOU know abut Ch'an and WCK?

What lineage of WCK do you practice?

Where do you practice? Who is your sifu?

By the way kudos for actually not posting in "code".
Now if only you'd stop posting whole portions of other people's posts we'll get somewhere with you.

Care to give some straightforward answers to the questions above?




Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------

How much do you know about Chi Sim WCK?

How much do you know about Ch'an and WCK?

[Rolling_Hand]

--Re,Re: Who is rolling hand?

Hi Steve, thanks for asking.

--How much do YOU know about Chi Sim WCK?

Not enough.

--How much do YOU know abut Ch'an and WCK?

Not enough.

--What lineage of WCK do you practice?

Fat Shan Chin Wu/WSL/TWC

--Where do you practice? Who is your sifu?

Fat Shan Chin Wu, Australia, USA and Canada... (too personal)

[Train]

Hi planetwc,

Hey!! Thanks for the reply. The person (I don't want to emention his name) that you rolled with, I think i actually know him. Not too well of coarse, but i know his background in martial arts atleast. He said that he only trained HFY for a couple of months. He actually had more training under a different Sifu in Sacramento or something like that. I forgot which instructor he said but it's a pretty big school up in Sac. He studied that WCK (Wong Shun Leurngs lineage as a remembered) for a couple of years. But anyways, IMHO he might not be experienced enouph in HFY to show you. But, heck it might not be the same guy :)

I heard those WC Camps are fun! I might have to go check the next one. Thanx again for you Info Dude.

[Chango]

Hello,
I Do not have the time nor do I wish use anymore energy on this thread. No out of emotion but it is growing really long! So allow me to just offer a few referals to information that will answer your questions. The lack of understanding of the difference between TWC and HFY can be simply explained in the content of the articles posted at the VTM about the punch. This has exact information in reference to the formula. Keep in mind it is not the job or the purpose of the VTM to compare systems. We collect and document information. If you want to compare information you must be sure that you have a understanding of each before you can draw such conclusions. If you do not do this you are not being fair to the materal. Please respect the information. Keep in mind that this information was not so readily available just a few short years back. I believe it is our duty to respect this information weather we agree with it or not. Atleast it is available with out the burden of thousands of miles traveled buy each families presenter or the VTM staff! The information at the VTM is delivered face to face by the most recognized representatives of each family. So please keep that in mind before you make such comments ;) You are being disrespectful to both TWC and HFY. Each of these systems are very different. Each of them have very different bodies of information and should be respected as such. I have had face to face interaction with both Sibak gung (via Yip man Lineage) William Cheung and Sigung (Via HFY) Garret Gee. In both accounts both displayed technical insights into each system.with out question every detail is unique. Both display wisdom beyond myself amoung other facts the proper respect should be paid to these accomplished men of martial arts. I refuse to engage in conversation that does not display this respect. It only refects bad on the person doing it.

Now to address the HFY without the mention of Time and space. It is clear that what you experienced was not HFY or some type of misunderstanding had to have taken place. You must reference Time,space and energy when discussing HFY. If not you are not discussing HFY. Thank you for sharing your experience but I have to be the first to tell you that it does not sound like you had one envolving HFY. Keep in mind it is a very precise system if of by any measurment it is no longer HFY my friend.

Chango (saat geng sau) :cool:

[reneritchie]

Hi Chango,

> Keep in mind it is not the job or the purpose of the VTM to compare systems.

I think that's great and I applaud it. However, statements like "older", "more complete", "science vs. personal expression", etc. are comparitive statements. If that's recognized and future work more closely follows your above mentioned statement, I think it would make the world of difference.

RR

[yuanfen]

Chango
Member
with out Time and space you cannot have HFY.
Hello,
I Do not have the time nor do I wish use anymore energy on this thread.
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Without time and space, one can't even have a decent cup of coffee.No problems with different lineages doing their own thing.
And, no one as far as I can see has initiated criticism of HFY .
The responses have been reactive to HFT's own claims.
But when claims of superiority and science are made, it is reasonable to expect clear and elegant and publicly understandable descriptions and the logic thereof. Dropping buzzwords- time, space, formula- are hardly explanations.

[Chango]

Hello,
I really did not want to post further on this subject becuase I do not see any further understanding being gained here. I find that the debate has gone beyond learning more to attack and defense and so on. When you take Time and space and trivialize it by calling it a" buzzword" it is clear your interest is not learning. So then I ask you what is the point?

Rene- You never did answer my question "Do you know the formula?" This tells me if you have enough information on HFY to qualify to judge the information. I choose to ask you this question becuase I understand that you have had face to face interaction with Siguang Gee as well as Sifu Meng on this particular system.If you have the system layout so to speak you will find alot of evidence of it's origins. But until then I cannot see where it is possible to forward. my point being that I have the system layouts for most of the major lineages of WCK. Along with further research we can then bring into context the use of the words older and so on... If you do not understand proper time and space or the formula you do not understand the foundation of HFY that is the bottom line. So before I can qualify your understanding of HFY Rene you must directly answer the question. Do you know the formula? and what is your understanding of it? That my friend is not political this is just the bottom line.

As I said I do not see any new information being brought to light or any point in argueing about argueing if you will. I hope you gents find what it is you are looking for. If you do not seek anything further then I wish you happiness in what it is you have obtained. It is not the VTM or the HFY family's wish to "convert" anyone the information will stand on it's own. We only wish to present the information with the respect that it deserves. The VTM does this with every family. The HFY family does not mention any other family when being presented. If you have a problem with the precise nature of HFY. Then it is clear the problem is yours and not that of this unique system. As discribed before HFY requires precise knowlege to be HFY. If off by any margin it is no longer HFY. With that being said you must be very clear as to what these requirements are. That is not me speaking, It is nothing personal that is just the way it is. I have said it before and I will say it again. I do not believe Via internet or the written word it is possible to gain the understanding of HFY needed to quailfy judgement. So at this point there is no point fighting and bickering. ;)

Chango (Saat geng sau)

[reneritchie]

Hey Chango,

> Rene- You never did answer my question

Before the kettle receives your call, please go back and ensure you've answered each and every question put to you, or to the general VTM/HFY group on this message board, and on the WCML, completely and fully to everyone's satisfaction. Then, if it hasn't rusted to pieces by then, I'm sure it would love to know what the pot thinks.

BTW- I find it interesting, more than a little illuminating, but ultimately sad, that your response to what was a very valid point, was to continue your games. Again, you once urged me to take your feedback on moderation seriously. I did. I still (and hopefully not pointlessly) urge you to take my feedback just as seriously.

> you will find alot of evidence of it's origins.

Opinions, especially those subject to great interpretation, do not equal evidence. You may believe it, you may wish it, it may even end up being true, but it ain't evidence, and it ain't yet proven.

> That my friend is not political this is just the bottom line.

No, it's smoke and mirrors. I do not have to understand a granny-smith apple down to its sub-molecular levels to comment on whether or not it's similar to a mackintosh, or a banana for that matter. I don't have to own a Ford Mustang and drive it for 10 years to comment on whether or not it came before the Model-T.

You can have any opinion or belief you like, and you can make up any rules you like, but in the end that's all they are *your* beliefs, opinions, and rules. I respect them, and I respect your right to them, I just wish you'd respect those of others a little more, and that you would apply your standards a little less conveniently.

Rgds,

RR

[yuanfen]

Chango sez:
The HFY family does not mention any other family when being presented. If you have a problem with the precise nature of HFY.

((Strange disclaimer.Not quite true Chango. Ona public list like this one and in print elsewhere- the buzzword of science has been used by the HFY people in drawing comparisons with other wing chun. The impression that the latter is modified wc is created....and that HFY is better for whatever reasons. Go back and see RL's posts about my line))

When you take Time and space and trivialize it by calling it a" buzzword" it is clear your interest is not learning.

((Important concepts can become buzzwords when just dropped as words without clear conext and definitions Chango))

You never did answer my question "Do you know the formula?"

((Define the formula. Or is this a secret handshake tilla book is on the market. I dont think anyone is giving you a hard time- you are tripping up on your vague words))

[Rolling_Hand]

Quote:
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You can have any opinion or belief you like, and you can make up any rules you like, but in the end that's all they are *your* beliefs, opinions, and rules. I respect them, and I respect your right to them, I just wish you'd respect those of others a little more, and that you would apply your standards a little less conveniently. -- from RR
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Yo Yoda,

Instead of blaming the other party, take a look at what you bring to the table. You may have to come clean about recent practices, it's best to change yourself.

[planetwc]

Tut tut,

Roger Rolling Hand,

Deal in specifics not vageries. State your case in specific terms.
Or is Rene supposed to play twenty questions with you about what your "beef" is with him. You are getting closer here, keep up with complete English sentences and state your case clearly.

I'll give you a C- for this post.

By the way, what are you bringing to this table, aside from sniping from your hidden clock tower of babel?


Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------
You can have any opinion or belief you like, and you can make up any rules you like, but in the end that's all they are *your* beliefs, opinions, and rules. I respect them, and I respect your right to them, I just wish you'd respect those of others a little more, and that you would apply your standards a little less conveniently. -- from RR
----------------------------------------------------------

Yo Yoda,

Instead of blaming the other party, take a look at what you bring to the table. You may have to come clean about recent practices, it's best to change yourself.

[Rolling_Hand]

--Roger Rolling Hand,

**PlanteWC David Williams,

--Deal in specifics not vageries. State your case in specific terms.
Or is Rene supposed to play twenty questions with you about what your "beef" is with him. You are getting closer here, keep up with complete English sentences and state your case clearly.

**Deal in specifics not vageries. State your case in specific terms.
Or is Chango supposed to play twenty questions with you about what your "beef" is with Chango. You are getting closer here, keep up with complete English sentences and state your case clearly.

--I'll give you a C- for this post.

**I'll give you a D - for this post.

--By the way, what are you bringing to this table, aside from sniping from your hidden clock tower of babel?

**By the way, what are you bringing to this table, aside from sniping from your hidden clock tower of babel?

[Chango]

Rene,
I can see that this thread is not in the nature to learn more about HFY. It is clear that Rene does not have a understanding of the formula thus no true understanding of HFY and will not admit it. I will not be side tracked the question is a technical one. Not one that calls for a comparison to another system. It simply is one that ask how much do you really know about this system? Rene your answers or lack of any real answer are personal in nature. Any one can see that this simple question is not one that calls for politics.Maybe you prefer one that does but I'm not interested. it simply ask one person how much he knows about a system. It is no different then asking a person about center line when discussing another system. The problems that you have with this question are your own problems Rene. Rene I can see that you have posted in alot of the HFY threads on this forum. You have met Sigung Gee and Sifu Meng. So the question is not a unreasonable one. Call it what you like but what I'm saying is true and my question is a valid one. Rene you can discuss you kettles. pots pans whatever you want to direct attention else where. But the question is still begs an answer. At this point the answer is clear. So to keep things on a lighter note I will have a little fun. Mr Rene Ritchie when it comes to HFY you are the weakest link good bye! (LOL!) Now you have something to complain about (ROFLOL!)

To those that seem to feel the need to argue and bicker.
I have to ask the question What is the real point of this thread? what do you seek to accomplish? It does not seem to be a thread that is directected tward gaining information on HFY. Do you really want to know more about this system? or do you want to simply argue? If your answer is the ladder I don't see any point in wasting any further time and energy. I hope you find what ever it is that you need to stop your own suffering but I do not wish to add to your suffering. I wish you all well.
Chango (SGS)

;)

[reneritchie]

Hi Chango,

I'm not interested in arguing with you or playing your games. As I said, you're welcome to make up any "rules" you like, but you can't force others to play by them. In your world, perhaps anyone who "understands" has to agree with you and therefore, anyone who disagrees with you doesn't "understand". Perhaps there's some truth to that, perhaps some truth to the reverse as well. In the beginning and the end, the lake is the lack, the mountain is the mountain, only in the middle are we dazzled by the many perceived differences. Maybe I'm only beginning my journey and you're half way through already. If that's true, I won't understand or appreciate all the twists or turns, gross and subtle, you're screaming back at me, and your frustration is justifiable. If that's true, I apologize for wasting your time and your valuable insights.

However, I will continue to point out that the sign of a person's character is not how they treat those who agree with them, but how they treat those who do not. There are a lot of eager young WCK people on this board, some of whom have used you and yours as examples of outstanding character. I hope you review these threads (mindless as I agree they often are), and the way you choose to treat those who disagree with you, and remember the example you're setting.

As to the HFY threads, while they do serve to keep the name on everyone's virtual lips, I also find them less than productive at present, so I'll pause and wait for something of substance to be offered, and for an atmosphere of sincere discussion to emerge before joining in again.

Hope you're as good at solitaire as you are at 3 card monte!

RR

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Chango and Rene,
Both of your postings have left the discussion of Wing Chun and become discussions of each others behavior. While you are both certainly remaining polite, it would probably be best if you took the current discussion off-board, via either PM or email.

PlanetWC and Rolling_Hand,
Same as above, but not quite as polite.


All,
Please remember that this board is for the discussion of Wing Chun Kung Fu, and not the personal behavior of other members. To assist this, I'm going to close this thread and encourage all involved to restart the relevant topics on new threads.