What would you do?

[SanSoo Student]

What are some tips you can give me about teach some of my less experienced friends?
What are some good ways to explain the material with them?
Im trying to teach them like basic forms, and some grappling.

[wushu chik]

Hmmm,
My best "tip".....don't teach them San Soo! It's "too deadly", remember?? They might get hurt, or worse yet, killed. "You can take my life, but not my confidence"........RIIIIIIIIGHT!!! :D

~Wen~

[Merryprankster]

Well, first, I'd learn how to grapple.

Learning a martial art might also be helpful

[SanSoo Student]

I'm not teaching them sansoo, I am just teaching them basic self defense stuff. I feel that a person should never be taught sansoo unless they are aware of how the style works. If a person was to use sansoo for the wrong purposes, they could seriously hurt many people, and definitely hurt themselves.

[wushu chik]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA............RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!


~Wen~

[No_Know]

Basic forms can take months to just get down the moves in order. Then a while to do them with the right attitude.

Grappling, to what ends? ...Self-defense?

You mentioned trying to get them some self-defense. Are you thinking the forms will do this? To get forms in Kung-Fu, first is the stance training (along with menial labor).

Instead of forms, perhaps techniques. Pick very specific situations. Pick several of the more likely types of situations you think they might in their lifetime, for their locations have would-be-helpful, self-defense.

Drill the grappling or techniques for self-defense in those particular situations. Please, go beyond the technique (or into it). By this I am referencing, after you do the technique they are not automatically down-and-out. Continue with another move based on a likely result of having tried the first technique. Please, make some of the results of each initial technique, failures. Try the technique, but throw in a factor or several that makes it so that the technique doesn't hasve the standard desired result.

Factors could include Attacker: tall, short, stronger, aggressive, wild actions (flailing arms, shakey head shakey all over), intended victim is weaker than attacker, objects in the way, attacker acquires a tool...

I would prefer that you do this failure speculation for up to four steps of failure for each technique.

There perhaps should be several techniques for each specific situation.

[Mr Punch]

I would check that I had got any credentials for teaching self-defence so I didn't get someone really ****ed up.

Then I'd check that I were on the right forum. This is 'Street/Reality Fighting'... :D

Oh wait, you ARE on the right forum... put it this way son, you can't fight 'reality', it will always win in the end. Give in to reality! :rolleyes: :p :D

[TkdWarrior]

self defense?
hmm wake em up at 5 am in morning and make em run couple of miles and time em...this should getem started... :D
wat they need to know for basic defense? let's see
punch at least (to lead in offence), blocks, lots of drills and loads of right attitude...
No_know put it most of things...forms can't be good for self defense...
then drill some situations against attackers... movement should not be forgetted(irmi n tenkan theory can be understood)
if u want u can put them in basic chi-sao that will help him develop more senstivity
and last but not least drills should be fast and with more resitant oppn't(obviously u'll start with slow)

-TkdWarrior-

[curtis]

San soo
question of self-defense. The first and one of the most important elements of self-defense is to know when in where you are in danger. Distance control, and self awareness are critical.
Teaching forms I believe is a waste time, For self-defense.
The goal in self-defense is to survive. A confrontation should be very quick, so great deal of knowledge is not necessary, a few skills that are mastered are better.
So if you feel that you must teach your frinds self defence, KEEP IT SIMPLE.
That is just my opinion.

Now a question for your.
I thought San Soo, and Sun Tza were the same person? If this is not the case please let me know more about SanSoo?

Sincerely C.A.G.

[SanSoo Student]

Well I don't know about San Soo and Sun Tza, I do know however that the person that originally taught San Soo took three books from the Quan Yin monestery, and these books contained the basics for fighting. These basics included foundations for punching, kicking, grappling, pressure point fighting, and breathing. He practiced these books and mastered everything in there, and spread it through his family line.

[xie li wong]

1st, the books ( three books from the Quan Yin monestery)....
Now go to your NEW Kung fu Qigong Mag Nov/Dec 2002 issue http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/mag.html
-- Page 53...Mr Woo is in the two pics on this page. In the top pic, Mr Woo is holding two books. Do these books open from LEFT TO RIGHT? Hmmm, I am thinking they do! The one on the table is the same.. NOW, chinese books open from RIGHT TO LEFT & did not do the euro Stilye binding till the 1900's. So now that we have just proven that the books ARE NOT FROM CHINA, where DID they come from? Probably K Mart............

2nd, now look at "Grandmaster" Woo (Chan Sue Duk) also on page 53...He is wearing a t-shirt that says "Jimmy H. Woo Assoc karate Studios" and "Grandmaster" Woo is also wearing a Karate Gi. The only "real" kung fu schools that did this was in the 1950's-2002 is Shaolin Do and Kung Fu San Soo Tsai Li Fo.

You art is "so deadly" you would think that you guys would have figured some of this out on your OWN, just for clarification. Funny, you may be able to fight, but are the stupidest idiots in MA if you can't firgure that your HISTORY is as shoty as Shaolin Dos. Come on....how they hell do you think your history goes back 4700 years? You have to be a complete IDIOT to not figure out you've been LIED TO.


:rolleyes:

[Waidan]

Everyone loves to jab San Soo. But strangely, nobody ever does it in person :)

I guess in a way I don't blame you. There are a number of peculiar inconsistancies and grey areas in San Soo's history. I've done some pretty extensive research on the matter. I've talked with a number of San Soo old-timers, and a few of Jimmy's contemporaries here in CA. Man, there's a lot of conjecture, and also a lot of old grudges. If anyone ever feels like stirring up sh1t, I suggest you do some poking around yourself :) .

Bottom line: Jimmy was about the toughest hombre you'd ever care to meet. He was a fighter, to be sure, and a knowledgable martial artist. To date, the toughest classmates I've had were in my San Soo class. All the advanced students could handle themselves, and a few of the lads were downright brutal. Though I moved on years ago, I'd still feel very comfortable with any of those guys watching my back.

SanSoo Student - to answer your original question, show your friends some of the basic break-holds (try to stick to strikes and simple leverages), and go through some of the punch-kick combos from the "first 45". Even sans footwork, if they can get a couple 3 hit combos down, it'll help them out short term. Add the stance changes and twisting when they're ready to start generating more power.

[xie li wong]

I never said anything about "Grandmaster" Woo not being tough, or being able to fight. Hell, my dog can fight! What I did say was San Soo's books that EVERY san soo teacher seems to back up are a fake. It's right infront of you in those pictures. if they are from china, old and supposedly "passed down from generation to generation" it's OBVIOUSLY a lie. Just those pictures alone tell you there something wrong in the story. That's all I was saying.

Just for my own curiositys sake, how old exactly is san soo supposed to be??

[SanSoo Student]

Jimmy Woo was only wearing a karate gi and using the name karate because he started to teach martial arts in southern california, He did not start in San Fransisco or anywhere where there was a large Chinese population. This lead him to conform tothe many karate associations around. He was forced to wear a gi, and even if isn't a traditional kung fu uniform, clothes are just clothes. His first students were white people, people that only knew about karate. His early years of teaching were talored to american people used to karate, soon after sansoo started to spread then he decided to change it to Kung Fu SanSoo. Most kung fu studios in Southern California have only been in existance for no more than 10 years. Jimmy has taught for 20+ years, since karate dominated California.
The things about the books are very interesting, I don't know if they were real or not, but I have worked out with Jimmy, and I can say that he was no fake. His stances are the same left/middle/left horse stances as all traditional kung fu. He has used cat stances and cross stances as most shoalins and tai chis use, but sansoo does not over exaggerate their stances so far as to to arrow stances of drop stance, because sansoo believes in fluid function motion. Most motions in tai chi and wushu are very over exaggerated and compromise solid blance, also you cannot generate alot of power in such exaggerated stances, so just practice the practical ways to do things. Sansoo is practical, why practice to be like animals when you're a human being? When you grapple on the ground...what happens in a real fight when there are more than 1 opponent?

[Ryu]

My tip would be to have them go to an experienced instructor in the self-defense field. Someone who has been involved with MA for a long time, and who has practical experience in what he teaches.
Teaching friends self-defense is okay, but don't do it unless you're qualified to teach. You can really instill bad habits, wrong idealogies, and literally fatal mistakes in people if you don't have the experience needed.

Do you know how to grapple? How? Where did you learn? How many years did you spend learning to grapple? What instructors did you work with?

Have you been in real fights? How many? How did they happen? Do you know and understand the pre-fight phases of assaults, and the aftermath of such situations? How does the law fit in? Do you know the legal reprecussions from usage of force in your area? In the law in general?

Real self-defense requires SO much more than just actual "fighting." Sometimes "fighting" in a self-defense situation is the worst choice you can make. Do you know about de-escalation? How semantics work in the pre-fight stages of assault? What do you look for in a potential attacker? How do you know someone is about to sucker punch you? Do you know how to catch violence cues from an attacker?
How much do you know about criminal psychology? Environmental awareness? Tunnel syndrone? Adrenaline dump response?

Not trying to dump on you or anything. It's just that you have to have a realistic amount of experience in this type of thing to "teach it." And even then it's hard. Skill in MA does not necessarily transfer to skill in self-defense.

Ryu

[CD Lee]

San Soo Student -


Most motions in tai chi and wushu are very over exaggerated and compromise solid blance


Very overexaggerated...could you please tell EXACTLY, not some ambigious statement, of what Tai Chi motions you are speaking of? Because frankly, you don't sound like you know what you are talking about in the arts. You also said MOST. So, out of all of the Tai Chi motions, EXACTLY how many out of the one hundred percent are you talking about? And in Tai Chi, which STYLE are you using as your reference?

Please answer, as I suspect you have no idea of what you are talking about.

I would send all of my real friends to a real teacher. That is my very best advice.

[lotusleaf]

I'd get them in shape first. Running, stretches, any exercise activity. Then teach em punching dynamics. How to punch, the mechanics of a punch and showing them the punches. Demonstrate while you're teaching. People understand better. Also show them CORRECT applications. Have them work on that for a while. Then teach them some basic kicks. Front snaps, roundhouse/hooks, side kicks and back kicks. Demo the diff. heights the kicks can go, the range, and timing. Teach them proper distancing and timing. Develop these so they can punch and kick w/ proper timing, speed, power. Good way is to spar light contact w/ proper safety equipment. With punches and kicks come blocking. Show them the diff types of blocks you can use and counters. That should lay a basic foundation for them to develop. Work on drills..lots of punches and kicking. With all this come stances and proper fighting form. Always provide feedback so they know what they're doing wrong or right.

As for grappling..i'm not familiar w/ it. Good street submission techniques are probably joint locks/manipulation like those in aikido or hapkido. Show them some basic throws, and takedowns that don't require you going to the ground. I say this because street self defense is about you running away from trouble not the opposite. So when you do takedowns and throws, you are on your feet to run/escape from trouble.

After all this, incorporate these into their regimen. Spar w/ contact and demonstrate w/ each person. Don't go hardcore on them or they might get discouraged. Most importantly they understand that this is self defense, and only used in last resort.
Hope this helps.

[Martial Joe]

Id say keep whatever you are trying to show them very simple.

[xie li wong]

Have you question the books and the history of san soo yet?
If so what have you found out?

NOT ON THE FIGHTING OR SKILLS OF MR WOO!!
Just the history of the books and the style!

[SanSoo Student]

I have questioned about the books and my teacher said they were real. I would have ask Jimmy himself but, he has already passed on. My teacher has been with JImmy since the early 80s, so I think his words have some weight.

[xie li wong]

:) Glad to see you asked!!! But if I where you! I would just do some diging. To see what you come up with! Look at the books(Mr Woos) and look at some chinese books of old! Also read some history on china, and see if the date thing makes any sence. ok

Please let me know what you find. If you need some help just e-mail me:cool:

[jungle-mania]

pure brutality, that is what I teach to my friends. Take note, since they are your friends and not some people you are trying to impress with your martial prowess, you got to show them the extreme end of street fighting and what to expect and what not (like seeing too many UFC). Jamming, palm heel strikes (since their knuckles are probably still pink) and cracking people's kness open are the way to go. Fast, simple and painfully brutal, all in less than a minute. Also, teach them how to run, coz I have met a guy who I have a applied a good reverse armbar and gotten out of it through sheer strength! Won't be fun if he isn't on your side.

better still, ask them to take up kung fu or other related martial arts.

[xie li wong]

How long have you been in San Soo, and What have you found out on it's History??

Thanks:cool:

[brandeissansoo]

San Soo student: Take them to class with you. They'll learn quickly.

Books and History:

People are working on it. When Jimmy was alive, people did not care about lineages, history, etc. they wantedto learn how to fight and win. They did that. It's only in the last few years that anyone has researched the topic. The history on the association website was, for the most part written by Jimmy's wife. A few people have even gone to china and have found what they say are Jimmy's relatives. Time is running out, however, because anyone that knew Jimmy in china would be extremely old. The family(jimmy's wife) has the books and won't let them out.

[Laughing Cow]

Here is what I would do.

1.) Awareness training. This can take many forms.
2.) Reaction training to given commands(Vocal or visual): i.e. if someone sez jump they must jump, not stand around and ask why or similar.
One thing I often see neglected in MA training.
3.) Get them fit and thus more confident.
4.) Enroll them in a proper SD School or Gym.

Just my 0.2 cents worth.

[OdderMensch]

no really, it is ;)

I'd teach them this one part of chum kui, where youv'e just pulled to one side, launch a wong gerk/sidekick then step down in the ong sau/wu sau structure.

now the tricky part come where you move your hands into the other structure, this is done FWIROMHO* so that you have space in which to send the elbow back up, thus createing that next step.

the movement of the elbow to the settled posture could coinide with the slight rise of the forward knee creating space for the step.

ie drop elbow, raise knee, bong sau, step/bui ma, stop with bong sau, drop elbow...ect, till the uppercut (yup thats all that is, an uppercut ;) ) this would result in two distinct steps. a slight, but definate picking up of the foot with the droping of the elbow, then an equally obvious dropping and pulling with the bong




However, after some sample steps I believe the form should more settle or drop into the position after the bong sau, useing the 20/80 weight posture, adducting the drop of the elbow from a rooted position. then bongsau, step/bui ma, settle,bong sau, step/bui ma. settle. in other words the bongsau should begin before the step, and end with the step.

hey this is the section of CK you see that guy do before the karateka flattens him(in that mcdojo vid). thats why you gotta practice!


ok i sleep now.

[Dragontounge]

Teach them some basic boxing:

Jab, hooks, straight right, upper cut, straight left, combos, jab/jab straight left, Jab/ pivot hook, etc.

Also some foot work:

Pivots, 45 degree setup, slips, and some head bobing, keep chin down, etc.

Also some wing chun:

Gan so, Tan so, chain punching, pak so, & some sensitivity training.

And: Some low rep weight training. Military press, bentover rows, barbell curls, shrugs, dumbell bench, etc.