Travelling shaolin monks.....circus act?????

[Souljah]

Just wanted to know your views on the travelling shaolin monks who go from country to country exibiting their training techniques and explaining the history of shaolin.....

Reason being, I recently went to such a show, it was great, But i felt it was much to westernised and corny, especially in the way the story was being told (of the shaolin temple....being burnt down, 5 survivors, etc) which im sure you all know.
Now I know this part was not down to the monks, but i've had arguements with people about whether these monks are 'sellouts'.
Would these monks be outcast by the temple?
Has anyone been to a similar event? What are your views?

Has anyone been to a similar event? What are your views?

[fiercest tiger]

I personally think they are just good athlets of wushu and thats all.

I seen them when i was at shaolin temple and they performed and one monk asked people to punch them in the stomach so i did and i hurt the monk. I also have it on video, i went outside to see if he was ok, and the teacher was giving him dit dar yun(internal strike pills) incase he was internally hurt.

I went to where they use all the bricks to break for the demo's and i was shocked to see that the bricks were very brittle and sandy as i punched one into dust!!:(

They are great performers and good at the art of wushu, but get them to break australian house bricks with a slap like they do maybe a stack like they do and then ill say yep they are the real deal. Or break coconuts as well!!

anyway each to there own, they are still good at what they do, so i take my hat off to them.


FT:)

[firepalm]

I have seen them here a few times and have viewed the DVD, I personally wouldn't call it selling out. It seems to me they are simply moving with the times and trying to reach a wider audience with what they do. I think most Chinese martial arts pracititioners out there realize that what they (the monks) are conveying is more of a blend of Shaolin with contemporary wushu, the Qigong show tricks & some dramatic stage presentation. Personally I see nothing wrong with it, they are presenting themselves in an appealing way to general audiences that may create more interest in what we do, not unlike movie icons like Bruce Lee, Jackie & Jet have done.

Just my thoughts.:cool:

[Souljah]

yea i agree with that.

I did feel abit ****ed off when the audience clapped and cheered for the little kid doing flips around the stage. Then when it came time for an older monk showing his 'longfist' technique/form, there were only a few shy claps from the audience, not realising that his exibition was as hard, if not harder to execute than a young flexible kid turning his body into spaghetti.

This is the only part that I dont agree with, the fact that they convey modern wushu as if it is what shaolin is renowned for.
Knowing that in the west people are dazzled by that and putting forward an image of this gives westerners the wrong impression i think.
Yes its good to advertise the style and get more interest and more people trying shaolin, but alot of these people (not all) come because they want to learn acrobatics and how to dazzle.

They will be gravely mistaken when they are instructed to sit in the horse stance for an hour.

[Brad]

Travelling Shaolin monks.....circus act????
Just wanted to know your views on the travelling shaolin monks who go from country to country exibiting their training techniques and explaining the history of shaolin.....

Reason being, I recently went to such a show, it was great, But i felt it was much to westernised and corny, especially in the way the story was being told (of the shaolin temple....being burnt down, 5 survivors, etc) which im sure you all know.
Now I know this part was not down to the monks, but i've had arguements with people about whether these monks are 'sellouts' and what it means to leave the temple and come to the west.
Would these monks be outcast by the temple?
Has anyone been to a similar event? What are your views?

(This thread was posted on the shaolin forums but no1 replies there!!! so i brought it here)

Well, first of all, most of these shows are not really affiliated with the Temple in any way. Also, second, if someone with little to no martial arts experience decided to go to the Temple to learn martial arts, odds are that they would end up being taught the modern wushu stuff anyway.

There was one of these "monk" performing groups visiting here a couple years ago. They were not from the Temple and were actually wushu athletes from a university in China with their heads shaved. This local kungfu school(the "monks" sponser) which regularly implies their stuff as being superior to ours(because we did a lot of modern wushu) made this huge deal of being able to learn from "authentic Shaolin masters". This kind of thing ever happen to anyone else out there? It's anoying, but I've learned to mostly ignore that kind of crap. I love modern wushu and it's allways fun to see other people enjoying it to(even if they don't realize it ;))

:D

[Souljah]

i suspected this.....as the show seemed abit too western and in many ways disrespectful to the art.....most real shaolin monks would probably be ****ed off at something like this.....
for example the obviously fake master with stuck on eyebrows, not knowing any kung fu, just an actor, and a bad one at that.

How could any self respecting shaolin monk endure such a mockerie..... bring me to believe they werent 'monks', however they were able to induce chi/qi in the normal shaolin exibitions whereby a man pushes a spear-point into his neck and pushes an object (usually a car), this time a person.....

[Ralek]

Ummm. Newsflash.

Shaolin Temple died out hundreds of years ago. there are no "real" shoalin monks. Get over it.

All that's left is a bunch of tourist attractions that have moved in. ALL kung fu now days is just fake made up stuff. That's why the san shou people had to make their art from muay thai and wrestling.

[Budokan]

Thanks for the history lesson, Rolls.

[Ralek]

Budokan. You still doing Shotokan? I quit that **** years ago. But i definatly don't doubt the proven Shotokan battle tactics of chasing after your opponent in front balances throwing reverse punches.

[Budokan]

Rolls. You're still beating off to UFC #2? I thought you quit that **** years ago. But I have no doubt the proven spunk altitude you're able to acheive, hence the stains on your ceiling.

[Ralek]

Budokan. You can't deny the truth. Shotokan does not work in real fights. Any high school wrestler or BJJ white belt would have a shotokan black belt beaten in under 30 seconds.

Shotokan's striking is very weak and ineffective. I would say that you would have better skills if you didn't train at shotokan at all. Shotokan teaches bad habbits like deep stances and chambering punches at the hip. in fact the style's main focus is on developing those two bad habbits. But i'm only a shotokan yellow belt so i could be wrong.

[Chang Style Novice]

Really? You said you wussed out on the test for yellow belt before.

But, it's certainly no surprise that you're a liar and used to inflating your pitifully meager accomplishments.

[Braden]

Circus act. Not that there's anything wrong with that, they do some really, really impressive stuff. But it's impressive circus stuff, not impressive kungfu stuff.

[Souljah]

Yea thats true , it was impressive no doubt there, I was just expecting a kung fu show.....doesnt matter though , it was worth it.

RALEK, on what do you base your assumption that there are no shaolin 'monks' anymore, hmmm so the guys that practice in mountain temples with traditional buddhist garments....who are they? They even practice traditional exercises (head kung, one finger kung, etc) oh no but these guys must just be some false nomads seeking the mushrooms in the forest.....lol

[Brad]

Well, there's lots of people who share Ralek's view, even though Ralek is a troll who's only out to get a reaction out of CMA people. I just put him on my ignore list :D Really though, most of the monks aren't much different than other amateur(or lower pro level) wushu athletes.

[Souljah]

can wushu athletes induce chi?
Arent shaolin 'monks' much more disciplined?
I dont see why there is this constant comparison between shaolin and wushu when the two (to me) seem completely different, shaolin is a way of life, not a sport. You become a shaolin monk you are giving up alot more and it takes much more dedication to stick to the strict buddhist teaching.

Sure you have these travelling monks that convey a wushu-style image but shaolin gong fu is not at all like those shows exibit.

[TenTigers]

do your homework. There hasn't been real fighting monks at the temple for decades. The "monks" you see are wu-shu performers, with shaved heads, who were put in the temple for its tourists, by the Chinese gov't. Even if you go back to some back issues of Inside Kung-Fu, there were articles showing about five elderly monks-Abbott DeChan included. Suddenly there are all these Monks popping up out of the woodwork? Hmmmmm. Ok, the fact is is, that they are amazing, to say the least. China starts teaching 4 yr old kids in elementery schools wu-shu as part of the school phys ed program-(jealous-all I did was play kickball) Jet Lei was a product of this system, and we all know how amazing he is. So, these "monks" are still very good,so would you be if you trained 24/7- but let the buyer beware. Hey, people still think "all meat weiners" are made from choice cuts of beef and pork, rather than lips,nose,ears,and whatever fell on the floor at the butcher. Frankly, I prefer real Kung-Fu, and real Sifus, Like Kwong Wing-Lam, Yee Chi-Wai, Y.C.Wong,Lam Chun Fai. etc,etc.

[[Censored]]

How could any self respecting shaolin monk endure such a mockerie

That's a good one, thanks. :)

[Souljah]

I was presenting my homework sir.....

I've seen footage of shaolin monks training OUTSIDE A TEMPLE, its not the modern shaolin in cities where you find a large ground of 300 or so people training.

Imean i've seen actual monks training traditional shaolin methods, not the travelling monks (Theyre completely stationary)
and it definately wasnt the flying wushu acrobatics.
They train 24/7 like you say.
How can they not be 'monks' when technically to be a monk is to be a buddhist monk. Which although communist china tried to stamp buddhism out there is still a small buddhist teaching there.
I know what youre probably saying "how can i rely on footage"
But it wasnt glorifying shaolin in any way just a an exibition of the five animals and some training methods, filmed by some journalist who they let into the temple to document them for about a month.

[neptunesfall]

the travelling monk shows are just another form of the cirque de soliel to me.

[Brad]

Arent shaolin 'monks' much more disciplined?
I dont see why there is this constant comparison between shaolin and wushu when the two (to me) seem completely different, shaolin is a way of life, not a sport. You become a shaolin monk you are giving up alot more and it takes much more dedication to stick to the strict buddhist teaching.
Actually, I wouldn't say they're any more disciplined than any other Chinese wushu athlete. And they are wushu athletes. They learn modern wushu forms, sometimes compete with them, teach them, compete in San Shou, etc. Also like many other amateur wushu athletes(and pros too) they learn traditional wushu along with it, and have their own specialties. Like Jet Li specialized in Fanzi Quan. The inducing of Qi you talk about(if you're talking about the spear to the throught, breaking bricks on the head, etc.) are usualy only tricks and nothing mystical that has to do with "qi". What the makes the monks different from other wushu athletes is 1.They have a degree in Buhdism 2.They work at the Shaolin Temple 3.They get a lot more press coverage :D and 4.They practice forms and San Shou where most tend to specialize in one or the other(at least in the pro levels).
Shaolin Monks are actually very much involved in the sport aspect of wushu.

Also which traveling monks have you seen? I think the Shaolin Wheel of Life tour was actual directly affiliated with the Temple.

[Souljah]

ok brad thanks, i was sure that there was a seperatist shaolin side , but i guess i cant argue without any proof.

Yea it was the Shaolin:wheel of life i saw

[[Censored]]

You may have misunderstood me. I was amused by the statement that legitimate Shaolin monks should be "self-respecting" and "****ed off" by the travelling shows. :)

Have you heard "Shaolin is first under heaven for CHAN", not for kung fu?

[TigerJaw]

Wheel of life is definately affiliated with the Shaolin Temple. The DVD contains a documentary that shows how the show producers travelled from England, interviewed the monks, asked the Abbots permission and brough the 'Monks' back to England. They put the show together back in England. The bad guy and the abott are played by two famous English actors. There was no attempt made to disguise the fact that the show is a stage show put together by an English company makeing use of the people from the Shaolin Temple.

I haven't seen the stage show live, depsite it comming to Oxford innumerable times but I have the DVD and it looks like modern WuShu to me but so what?

[Souljah]

"Shaolin is first under heaven for CHAN", not for kung fu?

Censored, could you tell me what you mean , im really lost man.....

[neptunesfall]

he means the main reason for shaolin is the buddhism, not the kung fu.

[Souljah]

thx nep for clearing that up.

[Tainan Mantis]

When they came to Tainan they let some other guys hit the monk and then let me do flying sidekicks on his chest.
Afterthat the got a bunch of spectators and monks to ram a telephone like pole into his abdomen. It was impressive.

fiercest tiger,
maybe the monk you hit wasn't that tuff. Or you have a punch like a donkey stomp?

[GeneChing]

Some are genuinely from Shaolin, some not. Wheel of Life was from Shaolin. It had Shaolin talent and the blessing of Abbot Yongxin. However, it was similar to Cirque Du Soliel in the fact that it was a western company that hired the Shaolin talent. I did an article on Cirque back in October 2000 - http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=126 - they have been hiring talent from China, then placing them in a hig production setting. I heard Barnum and Bailey is doing the same thing with a Wushu act. Strange as it may seem to many westerners, there is a great tradition of martial arts in Chinese theater and circus. Most westerners have a very narrow view of martial arts, street fighting, b movies, and tournaments, but in China it is a constant fixutre on many levels of culture. But back to Wheel, it was a spin on the 1995 tour, sort of the next step of the evolution of Shaolin monk tours. Not everyone orange clad participant was a monk. Most are lay disciples. Obviously the kids can only be Shami. But they are, for the most part, Shaolin trained. Additionally, it's all wushu since that's what reads from stage. Face it, the only people who want to see the traditional is us and if a show wanted to do a world tour based on CMA ticket sales, they just wouldn't make it. The show has to be pop. Monk tours seem funny to many Americans because of the setting, but it's actually happening on several non-martial levels. Many different monastic sects are performing theatrically now, not only to generate funds for their temples, but also to spread their teachings. The ones that are most predominent are the Gyuto monks and the tantric chanting. Other Buddhist arts such as dance, painting and music are being performed as part of pop culture. Even other cultures, like the whilring dervishes, are performing in theater. The sacred is becoming pop performance. Since few actually go to temples now, this is a good thing, the ritual comes to theater. As we become more a global community, such performance become more important to our understanding of each other. You may see it as a circus act. But I see it as cultural exhange.

[GeneChing]

This thread is more active there - go to http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=16491

[Souljah]

Thank you GeneChing


A few things and questions though.

I wasnt claiming it to be a circus act, hey i thoroughly enjoyed it! (almost brought a tear to my eye.....no joke!)
The circus act thing was just a ploy to get people to come and contribute which i'd say worked ok. This way I get to know about shaolin as my knowledge is very sketchy on modern teachings.

It was originally a discussion me and my friend where having while chillin one day and just something I wanted to debate with a more global gathering.

Thanks for the info again and i'll read the article when I have time.

:)