BJJ self defense

[SevenStar]

for all those that still think bjj guys intentionally try to take a streetfight to the ground, check out "BJJ Self Defense Techniques" there are over 100 self defense techs with color photos and pretty detailed explanations. out of all of the techs, only about 5 involve both parties going to the ground, and in two of those, the victim was already on the ground. the techs look like chin na and judo. it's a pretty good read - check it out.

[Chang Style Novice]

Who's the author? Most of the fumetti-style* demonstrations I've seen of BJJ self defense techs are basically last ditch stuff for a woman to do when she's been subdued and is about to be raped - in other words, working the guard

* fumetti: comic books where the images consist of photographs rather than drawings.

[Braden]

Does anyone actually train the "BJJ self-defense" curriculum though?

I've always thought the situation to be ironic, in light of how often BJJ people tend to criticize others for not training how they plan on fighting.

[SevenStar]

it's by royce and charles gracie and kid peligro.

Braden, I'm sure some schools train it.we do on occasion, but not enough to drill it in. It's definitely there though. a few of the guys and I have been talking about starting to drill them outside of class.

[TaoBoy]

Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1931229279/qid=1033356428/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/104-1790395-8743152?v=glance

Royce's site:
http://www.attitudeapparel.com/products/picture/book/book.htm

[SevenStar]

I think they use the whole"train how you fight" thing in regards to contact and resistance. I know tkd blackbelts that only light contact spar and pull punches when they go full contact because that is what they are used to. with sports like bjj and judo, they aren't pulling too much. there is definitely alot of hard contact and that will transfer to the street. however, if they are used to being on the ground and not training the self defense stuff, they will have more of a tendency to go to the groun, IMO. we do judo on monday nights, so we get to drill standup and clinch work too.

[Chang Style Novice]

Also - "Kid Peligro??!!??" are you sure this guy isn't related to Ricky the Dragon Steamboat, Junkyard Dog, Big Boss Man and The Undertaker?

:D :D :D

[SevenStar]

:D sounds like he might be. If he didn't have a black belt in bjj and hadn't won the world masters title twice, I might think that he was.

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, I saw that but still - whotta nickname!

[LEGEND]

KID is his Screen Name on the INTERNET...lol...his real name is a mystery even to BJJ guys I think. I don't like that book in particular! But oh well...

[SevenStar]

what don't you like about it?

[LEGEND]

BJJ is a ground fighting system. There's debate whether RORIAN( Royce's bro ) modified much of the standup stuff u see in the book to make it look more acceptable for multiple attacks or weapon scenario. I do believe that MARIO SPERRY VALE TUDO tapes/teachings are truer version of STREET BJJ. I think the standup of BJJ which is OLD SKOOL judo and jjj is great! But I felt Royce should have stayed more focus to the ground fighting of BJJ.

[Liokault]

BJJ is a one trick pony.



Ok its a good trick that was desighned to take out ONE guy very effectively but its going to get you hurt when you have to face more than one guy.

Trying to pretend that BJJ is more than just ground fighting (which is the point of this thread) is fooling youir self.

[Ish]

"BJJ is a one trick pony"

you keep telling yourself that.

"Trying to pretend that BJJ is more than just ground fighting (which is the point of this thread) is fooling youir self."

I think your fooling yourself if you think bjj can't be used in any other way than on the ground

[CD Lee]

Regardless of what art you practice, you are a human being, and you will use in a stressful fight, what you practice the most. You will not be good at what you do not work on.

Wrestlers can punch and slug, just not very good. Boxers can wrestle, just very badly. :D

BJJ guys - who knows? Whatever they practice the most should stand out in a fight regardless of what they think will happen. The truth is we don't know what will happen or what we will do in a 'sudden' confrontation.

I don't know what Vitor practices the most, but he certainly punches better than any other BJJ guys I have seen, and I'll bet he works on punching a lot. That is just a guess. I mean, the first time he went to the ground with Randy Coture, he did not look anything like a Royce Gracie by any stretch of the imagination. And I don't think Royce would stand in front of a Tank Abbot, and knock him out with a straight right cross either.

[DragonzRage]

My former bjj teacher Chris Haueter (Machado black belt) also has a great video series about street applications of bjj. It's called "Street Jits". Chris has a very realistic approach regarding what goes in real life and what doesn't. Anyone interested should definitely check it out.

[Ford Prefect]

When I was a white belt, the first things I learned were basic self defense techniques that consisted of stnding grappling and some striking. It was basically JJJ.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Liokault
BJJ is a one trick pony.



Ok its a good trick that was desighned to take out ONE guy very effectively but its going to get you hurt when you have to face more than one guy.

Trying to pretend that BJJ is more than just ground fighting (which is the point of this thread) is fooling youir self.

trying to post something like this and sound intelligent shows you've got alot to learn....

[Knifefighter]

Actually, he is right. BJJ is primarily a ground fighting art. That is exactly what makes it so effective. People who say you never want to take a street fight to the ground are clueless. There are many scenarios where it is advantageous to take your opponent to the ground to finish him.
- If you know there are no other people around to jump in while you are on the ground.
- If you have backup. Take a guy down and he will be helpless to defend against any allies you may have.
- If you just need to control someone until backup arrives.
- When you are being outclassed on your feet. Taking a superior striker to the ground can mean the difference between beating someone else’s ass vs. getting yours kicked.
- When you throw your opponent and he exposes an arm or leg. In this case you can finish him off and be back on your feet long before anyone else has a chance to do anything.
- When you can finish the opponent with the takedown (i.e. high amplitude slam, rolling knee bar,

Also, there are the times when you may not want to be on the ground, but end up there anyway.
- Someone with a wrestling background takes you down.
- Someone jumps you from behind and pulls you down.
- You take a hit that knocks you to the ground.
- You clinch with an opponent and both end up tumbling onto the ground.
- Most stabbing deaths occur after a person has been stabbed once or twice and fallen onto the ground. The fatal wounds are many times not the original ones, but, rather, the ones that occur after the attacker has followed up with more stabs after the person has fallen to the ground. Knowing how to work the ground can save your life in this scenario.

[Liokault]

trying to post something like this and sound intelligent shows you've got alot to learn....

:rolleyes:

A well thought through argument there.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Liokault


:rolleyes:

A well thought through argument there.

a statement like the one you mad doesn't require too much thought. basically, don't EVER assume anything, or you'll get your ass handed to you. remember that when you cross hands with someone who tells you they train bjj. most likely, that say that because it's what they spend most of their time on. What they won't say, is "I cross train in [enter style here]"

[Liokault]

So you disagreeseven star?

Do you not in BJJ spend the majority of your time on ground fighting?

Or have you found a way to fight a group of guys from the ground?

or have you found a revelutionary way to train stand up that lets you spend very little time on it and still be efective?



Theres no point telling me im wrong unless you have an argument.

[SevenStar]

since you asked.... we spend alot of time doing standup as we recognize that we need good take downs. Takedowns can and have been used in multiple attacker situations. The biggest mistake people make is doing what you did - assuming that we want to fight from the ground. knowing how to go to the ground gives me the knowledge to know how to get back up. knowing how to steal your center gives me the knowledge of how to keep mine. And, in any event, what if most of a bjj guys time is spent on the ground, and he he has to fight, oh, let's say, you. once you are taken down, what do you do? since we do standup throwing, I know very well how to throw. From prior MA training, I know very well how to strike. I use that to get you where I want you.

The three elements to a fight, from an SC and judo perspective are

1. make contact (clinch)
2. off balance
3. throw

grappling will do fine getting a bjj guy to a clinch, where he can then off balance and throw. once you are thrown, screw going to the ground. the next objective is to get away.

any more questions?

[Chang Style Novice]

I still wanna know - in a streetfight, after you've taken the other guy down and you're still up...

WHAT ARE YOU HANGING AROUND FOR? CHEESE IT!

[SevenStar]

exactly. You win a bacon sammich

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by SevenStar
for all those that still think bjj guys intentionally try to take a streetfight to the ground, check out "BJJ Self Defense Techniques" there are over 100 self defense techs with color photos and pretty detailed explanations. out of all of the techs, only about 5 involve both parties going to the ground, and in two of those, the victim was already on the ground. the techs look like chin na and judo. it's a pretty good read - check it out.

Sev' I've mentioned this fact several times onhis forum. When you train privates at Gracie Torrance the initial emphasis is on these simple striking and grappling techs. They are the "kata" or Ippon kumite of GJJ. Ippon kumite being self-defense or one step (or 2 or 3 step) sparring techs.

The regular classes don't focus on the self-defense as much, but these are the techs that Helio wanted to emphasize for non-sport GJJ training. Later, bro.

Btw, how was the Royce seminar? Did ya'll do any of the techs you are talking about?

[old jong]

Sorry but Self-defenses drillls could they be from the Gracies or the countless books on the subject,the self-defenses tricks they teach at the end of karate classes,the count Dante books,the easy and fast way to become an expert killer,Charles Atlas courses!...You get the idea!...Are all the same to me. ....Easy $$$$$$$$$$$.
I respect BJJ as a system of it's own that does'nt (Like any serious MA) needs these memorised tricks so easy to forget when the time comes to use them!
But,they sell lots of tapes I heard!:rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Most of the BJJ "self-defense" stuff is crap. Why? Because, unlike all the rest of the system, it is not sparred at 100% against a resisting opponent.

[neptunesfall]

Originally posted by SevenStar
The three elements to a fight, from an SC and judo perspective are

1. make contact (clinch)
2. off balance
3. throw

grappling will do fine getting a bjj guy to a clinch, where he can then off balance and throw. once you are thrown, screw going to the ground. the next objective is to get away.


i have to disagree with this, sevenstar. in shuai chiao the initial contact is a hit, which is the off balancing. not a clinch and then off balance. i might just be nitpicking the way you worded it though.

[Liokault]

Are we assumeing that throws end fights now?

[LEGEND]

Assumption is silly. Just like assuming tai chi strikes can end fights. It's possible but it's best to go for the overkill. Yes...throws can end fights. Yes striking can end fights. Your argument about BJJ being non street effective is correct if a BJJ guy just works on the SPORT BJJ which IS PREDOMINANTLY taught! But if the BJJ guy trains the VALE TUDO BJJ which is basic white belt BJJ added with striking then he's good to go for one on one real fights. Regarding multiple attackers...the training there is based on tactical stragedy. It is general thinking for both strikers and grapplers to follow the same REAL FIGHT FRAMEWORK.
1. verbal altercations.
a. sucker punch
b. get sucker punch
c. descalation based on verbal means.
d. intimidation based on verbal and body gestures.
2. Physical altercations.
a. striking.
b. grappling.
c. a and b.
3. Goal is to somehow get the opponent on the ground via takedown( if grappling ) or knockout( if striking ).
4. Striker Version: if u have KO your opponent...step back and be AWARE of surrounding area for multiple friendlies/attackers. if u have KD( knock down ) your opponent...Proceed to NFL football kick to KD opponent's hand...then step back etc...
5. Grappler Version: when taking someone down if u're still standing( ex: judo throw )...proceed to NFL football kick the GROUNDED opponent's head...then step back etc. If u fall on top of the guy...try to hit maybe twice then break away and stand up ASAP...proceed to NFL football kick etc...
6. LEAVE with FRIENDs ASAP to avoid further escalation...lawsuits and law enforcments...report your Credit Card lost/stolen to avoid paying BAR TAB!

[TaoBoy]

Can someone please explain why we are still debating this topic? :rolleyes:

Honestly, it's simple:

- BJJ is great on the ground
- most BJJers know some stand-up
- BJJ is *not* a one trick pony, it's another set of tools
- assumption is the path to defeat

Can we move on now? Please!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Liokault
Are we assumeing that throws end fights now?

No, we're not assuming that. Are you assuming your taiji will? That really wasn't part of the argument. you asked about standup training.


Neptune, stop nitpicking dude! Read a thread that's worth looking at, not this one. :)

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Most of the BJJ "self-defense" stuff is crap. Why? Because, unlike all the rest of the system, it is not sparred at 100% against a resisting opponent.

Even groundfighting as taught in practically every system of BJJ is not done 100%. I'm speaking of the techs utilized versus the energy spent. Nothing is really ever 100% anyway, there are no absolutes and completely controllable scenarios on the street.

Pro Football players rarely practice in full pads at full speed. Still when it comes time for the game, they are usually well prepared and able to execute. Training in GJJ self-defense is quite analogous (or kata or prearranged drills etc.). Helio understands the fact that simple gross motor movements and standing controls and locks can set up your sweeps, throws and ground submissions.

If you train GJJ and dis this aspect of it, then you are ignoring the foundation of Helio's system. Competition brings glory, but often the competition "way" or option is not the "way" in reality. At least the self-defense gives you some easy-to-accomplish options. Only go to the ground if you are 100% sure. Then again there are no absolutes... So where does that leave you?

[chingei]

Originally posted by Liokault
Are we assumeing that throws end fights now?

as assumptions go, that's not a bad one

[Liokault]

as assumptions go, that's not a bad one


Belive me it is a bad one!!

number one/ 90 percent of throws are not going to finish your oponent off.

number two/ If your counting on kicking the guy when he is down (to finish him) then you are in most cases in a worse position than he is. I know i have been on the floor with guys trying to kick me on more occasions than i care to remember.

number three/ if you are fighting more than one guy (again back to this flaw in BJJ) you may not have time to try to kick your oponent on the floor........and if he just gets back up then what did you gain?




Am i the only guy here who has had someone try to do a judo throw on him in the street?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by omegapoint


Even groundfighting as taught in practically every system of BJJ is not done 100%. I'm speaking of the techs utilized versus the energy spent. Nothing is really ever 100% anyway, there are no absolutes and completely controllable scenarios on the street.

If you train GJJ and dis this aspect of it, then you are ignoring the foundation of Helio's system. Competition brings glory, but often the competition "way" or option is not the "way" in reality. At least the self-defense gives you some easy-to-accomplish options. Only go to the ground if you are 100% sure. Then again there are no absolutes... So where does that leave you?

Every BJJ practitioner worth his salt spars at almost every training session. Most of these sparring sessions, if not 100%, are pretty close to it.

As far as these "self-defense" katas, I stand by my original statement. They are relatively useless for learning combative skills. What separates BJJ from your standard McDojo junk martial art is the fact that the techniques (with the exception of the "self-defense" techs) are performed in almost the exact way in which they will be used. You know what will work and what will not work with the ground and takedown techniques of BJJ because you have done them hundreds or thousands of times against someone who is trying not to let you do them. Not so, with the kata junk. These are practiced solely against compliant partners, so you never know what will work and what will not. The real "self-defense" techniques of BJJ are the throws, takedowns, and groundwork that is trained and sparred.

Pro football players do many drills at full speed and do quite a bit of scrimmaging. Add this to all the games they have played throughout their football lives and they have an ocean of experience in using their skills in the actual situations for which they were designed. This is totally different from the BJJ Mc Self-Defense program in which 99% of all practitioners have never used these techniques in an even halfway realistic manner.

BTW, almost all of Helio's and Carlos' system and most of their fighting careers were based on competition. The laboratory for BJJ has mainly been on the mats and in the ring.

[Merryprankster]

Five words:

Takedown to Knee on Belly.

Solves all the awful problems everbody who doesn't know what they are talking about seem to associate with groundfighting in a street fight context.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Liokault



Belive me it is a bad one!!

number one/ 90 percent of throws are not going to finish your oponent off.

number two/ If your counting on kicking the guy when he is down (to finish him) then you are in most cases in a worse position than he is. I know i have been on the floor with guys trying to kick me on more occasions than i care to remember.

number three/ if you are fighting more than one guy (again back to this flaw in BJJ) you may not have time to try to kick your oponent on the floor........and if he just gets back up then what did you gain?




Am i the only guy here who has had someone try to do a judo throw on him in the street?

1. I agree that not every throw will finish an opponent. However, I know that you are in no position to say that 90% of throws in the street won't end a fight. you have nothing to base it on. Maybe 90% of YOUR throws haven't worked, which could be a personal training issue. In any event though, I agree that there is no guarantee that a throw will end a fight.

2. **** kicking the guy while he's down. If he's down, you have time to get away.

3. if you are fighting multiple opponents, your goal is to get out alive. If one guy is down, you may have an opening to run in the direction that the downed man is no longer covering. when you see that opening, RUN. considering that most bjj has judo throws incorporated, what you stated as a flaw really is no flaw. the flaw is in the person training, or the person he's training under.

[Chang Style Novice]

It's true what MP says. Dropping a knee onto a the gut or sternum of a guy face up on the ground is going to take a lot of the fight out of him right there. Or at least it did when it happened to me when I was oh...six or so. It's one of the standard shuai chiao finish after the throw techs, too, and one that we don't train live in my wussed out experience. But then, who wants to walk away from every class with internal bleeding and shattered ribs?

[LEGEND]

LIO...well dood...if u're gonna have a stragedy in streetfighting...please present one??? I have no idea what u're stragedy is...seems like u're fighting the TERMINATORs! LOL...my goal in presenting an outline is to make sure U survive...seems like u're interested in FINISHING someone. Not going to happen in most multiple scenarios. But please give me an outline from A to B.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Liokault



Belive me it is a bad one!!

number one/ 90 percent of throws are not going to finish your oponent off.



I don't believe you.

Pick someone up, put him on his head on the street, he's suddenly got better things to do (like be rushed to the hospital)

You're thinking of olypmic-judo type throws. Putting someone on their head is not only likely to injure, but it scares the **** out of people.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Knifefighter


Not so, with the kata junk. These are practiced solely against compliant partners, so you never know what will work and what will not. The real "self-defense" techniques of BJJ are the throws, takedowns, and groundwork that is trained and sparred.


BTW, almost all of Helio's and Carlos' system and most of their fighting careers were based on competition. The laboratory for BJJ has mainly been on the mats and in the ring.

Or the streets of Brazil. Whatever, bro. I guess you are a real GJJ practitioner, unlike everyone I know that trains at Gracie Torrance. Go there and tell Ryron that his Grandfather's self-defense techs (which btw contains many fundamental groundfighting techs) are crap.

You are a knifefighter, meaning Filipino Escrima/Arnis or the like? Well I lived and trained in the PI and nobody there really thought that Filipino stick or knifefighting was all that. Its a supplementary art at best. I am part filipino and I can tell you that Pinoys are proud of their heritage, but many of them know the reality of the effectiveness of these systems in real streetfights because real fighting is much more prevalent there than here. The real fighters I know did Jeet kune Do, Boxing, Silat, Kuntaw, Shorin Ryu or Thai Boxing. Additionally Kali/Escrima/Arnis make use of forms, or kata, as is evidenced by the prearranged routines that abound in these systems.

Anyway, what the heck do you know about the benefits or detriments of kata training? What system did you train in that taught kata, along with realistic oyo-bunkai or kihon-bunkai? Just wondering, fighting expert guy.