So you want to be a black belt, huh?

[TaoBoy]

I read the below article today...

What is a black belt? (http://www.orlandokuntao.com/master_frameset_whatsa_bb.html)

...and it got me wondering - how long does it take (on average) for a student to reach black belt in your style/system?

[apoweyn]

took me five years. but i studied taekwondo for another five years prior to that. so by the time i got a black belt, i had a cumulative ten years of experience.

for all the difference it makes.

my friend matt got his black belt in taekwondo years before i got mine in eskrima. and he told me at the time (high school), "you think it's going to change everything, but i feel exactly like i did yesterday."

i think that says it all.

[SwaiingDragon]

I've got three of them in three different arts....right now they're only good for holding up my pants....

All my Shifu's can still beat my a** -

I read somewhere that traditionally if you recieve your black belt , you have only mastered the basics- i guees that's true

[apoweyn]

I read somewhere that traditionally if you recieve your black belt , you have only mastered the basics- i guees that's true

that's what they say, yeah. but even that isn't a guarantee.

[Chang Style Novice]

Black belts don't have that much fun.

I want to be a pair of low-rider, hiphugger blue jeans!

[apoweyn]

and now that i've actually taken the time to read the article...

very good read. the whole paper money-martial arts analogy is a bit unwieldy. but whatever. the main point was beautiful.


stuart

[neptunesfall]

7-8 yrs for shuai chiao, 10 yrs for kung fu.

[NorthernMantis]

Belts are for non chinese styles. Well except shai chiao, for some reason it doesn't bother me that hey have belts.

[rubthebuddha]

good summary article. it's nothing new, as this problem has been around for a while, and it's shame that those who really need to read it and understand it aren't the ones who look for it. few of the bums who have that problem will admit this about their school, and the rest of society doesn't often pick up MA publications.

[MonkeySlap Too]

eh, I just don't like the whole idea. You are either a student, a fighter, or a coach. Or some combination thereof. But really you should always remain all three as you progress.

[Dark Knight]

For instance, one school owner confided, "My students' parents expect their child will be a second-degree black belt by age 12. If not, they will take him elsewhere."

Kind of says a lot

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
Belts are for non chinese styles. Well except shai chiao, for some reason it doesn't bother me that hey have belts.

belts are just as much the bane of nonchinese styles as they are for kung fu. taekwondo, karate, and a bunch of other styles could benefit as much from a reanalysis of the belt system as kung fu would.

that said, in my experience, i can think of more nonchinese styles that don't seem to use a belt system than i can chinese styles (though my experience may not be representative of the whole).


stuart

[NorthernMantis]

True

[Viper555]

If you train about every day for 23 and a half hours you can do it in 4-5 years. For most of the students thought it take 6-8 years to get it. My school has been around for a little more than 10 years and we've only had about 8 people to make it to black belt out of hundreds(close to a thousand I believe).Most of those people have gone into things involving law enforcement.One of them works for the CIA now.

[kenso]

The Japanese word the 1st degree black belt is Shodan. Sho=front, in this context it means first. Dan=step. So literally translated, shodan means first step. In most Japanese schools (by this I mean schools in Japan), shodan represents rudimentary understanding. It symbolizes that the student has begun his or her own training path. It's the difference between someone who is studying a language and is still learning the grammar and vocabulary, versus the student who can now put sentences together, conjugate verbs, and hold simplistic conversations. Would you call that person fluent? Of course not. But that person has the tools to further their own education. If you immerse that person in the language and culture they're studying, they will become fluent much more quickly than someone who has never studied.

I draw this analogy because we all train for different purposes. Just as some guys take French because that is what all the cute girls take, some people undertake the study of martial arts for frivolous reasons. Once the training has begun, they will either drop out or learn to love it for other reasons.

The true crime of all this grade inflation is the inordinate ego gratification that takes place at the cost of a true education in martial science. The parent who demands that their child be promoted as fast as possible isn't looking out for their kids' best interest; they're merely feeding their own ego so they can brag to their friends that their 7 year old is already a black belt. Can anyone think of something more worthless than a supposed rank of mastery given to a seven year old? And yet you see schools who boast of children as young as that being given the vaunted black belt. The rankings are used to entice more money from the students, who believe they are progressing into what the rank represents.

As usual in American culture, we're more interested in the trappings than the substance. We'd rather have the big house and the BMW (both with huge payments of course) than actually be rich. And unfortunately most people would rather have the black belt than whatever that represents to them. Why? Because both being rich and achieving mastery of a martial art require sacrifice and dedication, neither of which we're willing to give. It's a sad commentary on the something for nothing culture we've built in the modern era.

Sorry for the long rant; I'm gonna go train now.

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by kenso
It's a sad commentary on the something for nothing culture we've built in the modern era.

I think this says it all really!

:)

What I found interesting in that article was that the understanding among the non-martial artist seems to be that a black belt equals some kind of mastery. However, most martial artists I talk to understand that it actually means you've just started to learn.

So, how did that discrepancy of understanding happen?
My guess - ego and advertising of McDojo schools everywhere. :rolleyes:

[HuangKaiVun]

"My guess - ego and advertising of McDojo schools everywhere"

If we want to approach it from that angle, we have to consider the Orient as well.

The Japanese used belt ranks in judo, and those were incorporated into karate. Now schools in the East use belt ranks as well.

"everywhere" indeed! :)

[SevenStar]

excellent post, kenso.

[David Jamieson]

Black belt . schmack belt.

Many of us here have one, have had one, are working towards one or are working past the unusual attachment we have for one.

The Black Belt means nothing. It has no value except to the one who would pursue it as some sort of prize as opposed to using it for what it is, a measuring stick of ones own progress in the insular world of the singular art they are studying.

Your black belt means nothing to the guy who scker punches you in the parking lot.

It means nothing in the world where university degrees are what counts and where someones skill is measured against what they get paid in their bread and butter day to day grind.

It has absolutely become the extrinsic focus in many martial arts.
This is sad, because it defrays the intrinsic lessons in the art you have chosen to study.

it is true, belts are useful for helping you to be concious of your centre (dan tien) and also for holding up your pants. beyond that they only measure you against you.

peace

[Merryprankster]

Depending on the integrity of the belt system in the style, they are useful as a rough gauge of ability and material learned. Other than that *shrug*


It's a sad commentary on the something for nothing culture we've built in the modern era.

Actually, it's a commentary on being human.

[Former castleva]

When talking of BB´s etc:s...it´s not the black belt,it´s the training behind it which means,belt just let´s one know.

BB can,if I have anything new to add,considered a point where basics CAN very well be down in a way or another,and one can move towards advanced studies.
BB can also be considered a new beginning in training,like a white one.

I guess it has been thought in western society for a time that BB means some kind of mastery,talking of non-MA here (for BB is a familiar term for anyone´s ears)
It shall be respected though,for unless it is a regular belt or bought,it displays that work has been done to a point.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by kenso
The Japanese word the 1st degree black belt is Shodan. Sho=front, in this context it means first. Dan=step. So literally translated, shodan means first step. In most Japanese schools (by this I mean schools in Japan), shodan represents rudimentary understanding. It symbolizes that the student has begun his or her own training path. It's the difference between someone who is studying a language and is still learning the grammar and vocabulary, versus the student who can now put sentences together, conjugate verbs, and hold simplistic conversations. Would you call that person fluent? Of course not. But that person has the tools to further their own education. If you immerse that person in the language and culture they're studying, they will become fluent much more quickly than someone who has never studied.

I draw this analogy because we all train for different purposes. Just as some guys take French because that is what all the cute girls take, some people undertake the study of martial arts for frivolous reasons. Once the training has begun, they will either drop out or learn to love it for other reasons.

The true crime of all this grade inflation is the inordinate ego gratification that takes place at the cost of a true education in martial science. The parent who demands that their child be promoted as fast as possible isn't looking out for their kids' best interest; they're merely feeding their own ego so they can brag to their friends that their 7 year old is already a black belt. Can anyone think of something more worthless than a supposed rank of mastery given to a seven year old?
As usual in American culture, we're more interested in the trappings than the substance. We'd rather have the big house and the BMW (both with huge payments of course) than actually be rich.

Sorry for the long rant; I'm gonna go train now.

Excellent post, man! You obviously understand what the belt means. In America people seem to equate a BB with MAs prowess. Not true. Most BBs are no better at fighting than your common, semi-tough, no-nothing. What they may know is what the qualifications are to get a Shodan in their respective art. Up until Sandan (3rd degree), a BB can be considered proficient in basics, but not an expert in anything.

What are the qualifications to get a BB and what organizing body controls these prerequisites? They are too numerous to count, and many of them have no standardized curriculum. Nuff said. That training thing sounds good Ken'...

[kenso]

Thanks for the kind words all. It's a subject I feel strongly about (as you may have noticed). I think it's endemic in our culture to do the minimum required, rather than the maximum allowed. Here in the US, you have lots of bozos who will brag that they "earned" their black belt in 10 months (or whatever). In Japan, you may know someone for years, then suddenly find out that they have a 5th dan in naginata-do (or whatever). Then when you ask them about it you find out that they've been training in it since they were seven. Amazing. And it illuminates the difference between a culture that respects the path, and a culture that only respects the end result. We're all about goals. So if the sifu puts out a list of what's required for the next level, we're all eager to bang our way through the list, so that we can go on to the next list, and maybe get a pretty piece of paper that says that we know something. So what if we have no depth of knowledge? We went through the list right? :rolleyes:
It's even gotten to the point where shysters on eBay are selling high dan rankings to anyone who is willing to pay the price.

In my opinion, and this may be shocking for some of you, I feel that the teaching of martial arts and the pursuit of money are mutually exclusive. Trying to attract and retain students involves too many compromises to the quality of the art. It's not that it can't be done. But can you imagine the operator of the typical McDojo telling someone that they should go ahead and quit? Or to not promote someone because they're not ready and risk having them quit?

When the relationship becomes about the money, then it's the one who holds the money that has the power. The student (read customer) has the right to take his or her money elsewhere. Therefore the teacher must provide an invigorating, ego gratifying, and above all not too frustrating a training experience.

When the relationship is about the knowledge, then the one who holds the knowledge has the power. In the old days in Japan, you had to petition someone to take you on as a student. You had to have character references from respected people to show that you wouldn't abuse the knowledge you would gain. Now? Just the cash. Sad. :(

Those of you who understand, train hard and as they say in Japan, Ganbatte! (Do your best!) For those that don't, I hope your belt and/or certificate makes you happy.

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by kenso
Those of you who understand, train hard and as they say in Japan, Ganbatte! (Do your best!) For those that don't, I hope your belt and/or certificate makes you happy.

Beautifully said, Kenso!!

[Shadow Dragon]

kenso.

I fully agree with your posts on this thread and feel the same way.

Japan isn't all that hot though, many McDojo and the same attitudes that are found in the rest of the world.
Too much influence from the west and the US has creeped into many Asian countries with old values being replaced by new ones.
Bad thing is that in Japan there are many "MA Tourists", often from the Military service who wanna study 2 yrs get a BB/Rank issued in japan to open their own school back in the US.

At one school some students even openly said that if it weren't for the Certs they would have quit a long time ago.

Sad and shocking was that some of those had the potential to be good MA, but were more interested in the Belt and Rank rather than being good at it.

Cheers.

[TkdWarrior]

nice post kenso...

i m practicing 3 yrs in TKD and i guess i'll get black belt in another 4-5 years...the way i m doing it...i guess it takes forever... lol.
i spend 2 n 1/2 yrs in MT/kick boxing without any belts...
now in TC again without any belts...so guess in near future i m not gettin any belts ...
and how long it takes in my class(not exactly typical TKD) more than 4 or 5 years...and in my class no one 9 year old hav masters in TKD all of them r in their mid thirteis or forties rite now and around 25 + yrs of experience...does that count to u???
cheers
-TkdWarrior- :cool: