Question for Lo Man Kam"mers".

[Mr Punch]

Aelward, thanks very much for the links to the clips on the other thread. Just thought I'd ask this here as I didn't want to hijack Zhuge's thread...

I've been learning Lo Man Kam's slt from the guy whose contact you gave me (I never did thank you for that so: thanks! Not the school, the other guy, who is now a regular fixture on my training calendar, in a slowly growing multi-lineage training group... which�@is the ONLY TRUE WAY tm!!! :D ), and he, like you, does most things slightly lower than what I'm used to. But even he wonders if he is too low in his initial section, as Lo Man Kam was always telling him he was heading that way... Your tan sau in the first section seems lower than his:

Could you tell me the reasoning behind having the first tan sau so low?

(Very nice energy in his chi sau btw and some interesting takes on some drills, I'm hoping to head for Taiwan next year.)

[aelward]

Mat writes:
>Could you tell me the reasoning behind having the first tan sau
>so low?

Actually, I am no longer certain if that is the right way, after having seen a video of my Sifu doing it with the Tan Sao rising. But then, I have seen other clips with his Tan Sao flat, parallel to the ground. You may want to try out the following videos and pics links:

http://www.lo-man-kam.de/index2.htm

(i am on a low-bandwidth connection, so you'll have to browse through all of them to the part where he does the tan sao)

What I see in a flat tan sao, however, is less flexion of the bicep. In this way, we can really concentrate on the tricep, which is the main agonist for forearm extension (and therefore, "forwardness"). Perhaps the Ken Chung people could explain this more, because he spelled it out to me as being "flat like a beach (i.e. "tan").

In any case, we have three levels of tan sao in the form as I currently teach it, each with a different purpose:

1. parallel (first section); for energy, and basis for all other tan saos

2. high (in the tan-jum-tan-gang-tan of third section); covering from inside to outside of the upper gates

3. low (from bong sao); sinking, slapping downward.


On another note:

> Very nice energy in his chi sau

Hmm, he told me that he had not started chi sao yet, and had only learned the first form....

I'm planning on visiting Japan next year, perhaps I'll have time to stop by Tokyo....

[Mr Punch]

OK, that sounds like a reasonable explanation! Thanks.

I don't know when you talked to him about it but I've seen the vids of him doing chi sau at Lo Man Kam's kwoon! Not sure he'd done any before he went there. Whether he had or he hadn't, he his slt, dan chi sau, lop sau drill etc must have prepared him for it very nicely...: er... he's got very nice energy in his chi sau!!! :D Look forward to meeting you. We practise informally now with a few of us from different lineages. Very useful, and hard work and good fun at the same time. And most importantly, no dogmatic BS! If it doesn't work, we don't do it, sometimes it works for one of us and not for another, so we train/modify/discard as appropriate to our bodytypes.

The three different energies to the tan sau in slt is maybe not so uncommon. When I first learnt it from Sam Kwok's people (Yip Chun and Ching's lineages), they were described as follows:

1) Basic forward extension, to practise extending along the centreline in a relaxed manner: and as you said, training for all other energies.

2) Powerful, fast fajing releasing outer gate cover/strike.

3) Downward chum jarn (?) slapping (with back of the tan), crushing (with the elbow) and keeping (with the whole structure) energies (after the bong sau).

[Grendel]

Originally posted by aelward
Mat writes:
>Could you tell me the reasoning behind having the first tan sau
>so low?

Actually, I am no longer certain if that is the right way, after having seen a video of my Sifu doing it with the Tan Sao rising. But then, I have seen other clips with his Tan Sao flat, parallel to the ground. You may want to try out the following videos and pics links:

http://www.lo-man-kam.de/index2.htm

(i am on a low-bandwidth connection, so you'll have to browse through all of them to the part where he does the tan sao)

In the video clip of Lo Man Kam with two women students, the two students appear to me to be doing SLT with their tans extending flat. There are some pictures of LMK, where he's doing chi sao against a taller opponent and his tan sao bends up at the elbow slightly to compensate (apparently).


What I see in a flat tan sao, however, is less flexion of the bicep. In this way, we can really concentrate on the tricep, which is the main agonist for forearm extension (and therefore, "forwardness"). Perhaps the Ken Chung people could explain this more, because he spelled it out to me as being "flat like a beach (i.e. "tan").

We extend the tan sao flat and the hand flat, palm up in SLT to keep the shoulders relaxed and to not give a handle to our opponent. Like you, the emphasis is on elbow energy. Against a taller opponent, some of us do lift our forearm in tan sao as LMK appears to in some pictures on the link.

Regards,

[stuartm]

Hi,

We too train the tarn sao very flat (just off horizontal to floor). The reason as i see it is simple - this tarn at in the 1st section of SLT is to train forward energy and so the tan so must go forward. i have seen many schools practise it rising which in my opinion trains the energy to rise not go forward. Some sy that it must rise as you aretraining for application - yes - but the tan sao is trained for application in the 3rd section where it rotates out quickly and at a higher angle than in the first section.

Just MHO !

Stuart

[Miles Teg]

Alward where in Japan are you going?
Anywhere near Nagoya?
Thats where I am.

Matt are you training in Tokyo, if so I might try to visit you guys the next time I go up to Tokyo, probably around new years.

[S.Teebas]

i have seen many schools practise it rising which in my opinion trains the energy to rise not go forward.

Just becasue somthing ROTATES upward doesnt mean its not going forwards (2 way force). Shape of the tan has little importance next to the fact that the force is headed/focused in the right direction.

[aelward]

I just got an e-mail from one of my students who is going to study with my Sifu for a year. Last nite was his first lesson, and guess what... my sifu told him to let the tan sao and fook sao rise a little bit (so not quite parallel).

He was also told to let his wrist naturally pop upward as we do the half-huen sao in section one, which I did not do in the video clip link I submitted; we started keeping it flat after LMK's son Gorden told us to (but this might be Duncan Leung influence).

[aelward]

Miles writes:
> Alward where in Japan are you going? Anywhere near Nagoya?

When I go to Japan, I tend to just go to Kyoto (in-laws stuff); but I would like to go to Nagoya sometime, because I have a really good friend there (a kick-butt sambo practitioner); I also want to go visit the Kantou region because I used to live there, and have lots of friends there as well. So maybe we can all hook up sometime.

[burnsypoo]

He was also told to let his wrist naturally pop upward as we do the half-huen sao in section one


I'm curious, why?

[Mr Punch]

StuartM, interesting: when I started in Sam Kwok's lineage a few years ago I was taught emphatically to do it rising to Adam's apple level (but of course going forwards too).

Basically, I don't think it matters where you do it to (I'm talking about the ones in the first section now BTW), providing you are keep the basic extension principle in mind. I do prefer to do it to a more practical level than quite so horizontal, but it's good to practise both to get a different feeling.

I must say, I think it's odd that LMK would advocate sending it out horizontal to improve the relaxation of the bicep and to stress using the tricep. His take on bong sau and lan sau, for example, seems to be very much that they should be done high, because if you practise high and can still manage to relax, you won't have a problem with too much tension in an altercation, with or without keeping your shoulders from rising.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Matt are you training in Tokyo, if so I might try to visit you guys the next time I go up to Tokyo, probably around new years.

Currently I train with Embrey Williams of the Hawaii WC Assoc (John di Vigilio etc) twice a week. Outside I train with two guys with a couple of years' experience from Lawrence Leung (direct student of WSL?), one guy from Leung Ting's organisation, one LMKer and soon a couple of others... The group is growing, but we haven't managed to arrange schedules for a full-on meet with all of us yet! I appear to be a contact... :eek: I'd love to meet and practise with anyone from any style (wingchun or otherwise), with the possible exception of Red5Angel (:D ).

Miles, I'm sure Embrey would be happy to have you along to the kwoon, and I'll be more than happy to introduce you to many different styles and body-shapes for chi sau frolics!

Aelward that goes for you too.

[Miles Teg]

Aelward-Cool!

Matt
Thank you very much. In fact I actually went to visit Embreys school a few years ago while I was on holiday in Japan. Now Im here to live but in Nagoya (against my wishes, Im on the JET programme). Embrey was a nice guy. Unfortunately when I went to visit he was holding a grading so I couldnt really talk to anyone. But Embreys W.C looked very good, and he sure was in good shape. Actually my Sifu met him briefly at a W.C conference in HK a while back.
When I go back to tokyo it will only be for about 2 weeks but Im looking forward to catching up with you guys. If you are the contact guy then maybe you should give yourself a flash title like `President of the World Interlineage W.C Foundation`. Hmmm, maybe you could work on that.

See you

[aelward]

Mat writes:
> I must say, I think it's odd that LMK would advocate sending it
> out horizontal to improve the relaxation of the bicep and to
> stress using the tricep.

This is my own analysis, not something that my Sifu told me. What he does emphasize is that the "energy comes from the back of the arm" (i.e., tricep), not the hand or "front of the arm" (bicep).

In any case, because of all the contradicing pictures, statements, etc, I no longer have any clue as to how he does the tan sao in the first section. Maybe up, maybe horizontal; I'll have to wait until I see him next time to find out for sure.

[Mr Punch]

hey hey hey! I'm not the contact for Embrey's school, he does all his own stuff in that department. If you want his details, no worries, PM me. I'm the lowly contact for the unofficial wingchun get-togethers... I'll work on a grand title!!!

[Miles Teg]

Hey Matt
I was talking about the other W.C get together thing. Yeah I know Embreys gets the word out about his school cause I saw his W.C add in the Tokyo Classified, not that the other one the little one.

Anyway catch you later.