wing chun fighter competes in "ultimate combat2" in uk

[bougeac]

ok chaps, seeing as the interest is good i will send this fight review verbatim (sorry i didnt post it before, but the mag was at work!1).

ok , here goes (this article is in the uk mag "martial arts illustrated".

"However, the main fight of the night was once again delivered by the uk's most active fighter to date. Welsh hard hitter paul "hands of stone" jenkins. There isnt a uk mma show that paul hasnt fought in and it was clearly his night as he faced uc1 veteran and WING CHUN stylist simon bloom. jenkins was coming off a mediocre performance in cage wars2 and needed to liven up for this fight.

In the opening seconds bloom sliced in a number of low shots to jenkins legs. However, it wasnt long before jenkins had bloom on the ropes with a guillotine attempt, taking time to land a few knees to blooms head and shortly after, jenkins unleashed "the hands of stone" and sent bloom to the canvas. bloom, to his credit got back to his feet, but the fight had gone out of him and it was pure survival as jenkins piled on the pressure with kicks and punches, at one point throwing him across the ring like a rag doll. jenkins took his time and picked his shots, all of which connected full power and bloom took a number of rest periods to clear the blood before jenkins moved in the for kill and hammered away at blooms kidneys from the ground.

The referee had seen enough and stepped in to stop further punishment. A deserved victory for the hard hitting Jenkins who is going all the way".

This fight was stopped in round one @4 mins 45 seconds.

I thought i would let interested parties read this as I am always curious to see how wing chun fares in these kind of competitions.

And before anyone starts saying "what lineage is he from, he cant have been any good otherwise he'd have won" the only thing i can say is that to be allowed to fight in these competitions you HAVE to be good at whatever you do, otherwise you dont get to fight.


It sounds like the fight was pretty much one way traffic and quite brutal, i intend getting the video of the tournament so i can see where the guy went wrong...

old jong, why did you think it was "the kamon guy", i presume you mean kevin chan?

cheers,

bougeac

[black and blue]

Don't know who he is - if anyone's got info please post it.

I think Old Jong reckoned it would be Sifu Chan because he (Kevin Chan), has entered various tournaments in Europe (and, naturally, won them :)).

www.kamonwingchun.com

There was a recent MAI issue with a Frank Shamrock cover... B'Jesus that man's big... I wouldn't get in the ring with him for love nor money!!!

[Merryprankster]

And before anyone starts saying "what lineage is he from, he cant have been any good otherwise he'd have won" the only thing i can say is that to be allowed to fight in these competitions you HAVE to be good at whatever you do, otherwise you dont get to fight.


No offense to you bougeac, but this is just not true. I've seen people with absolutely no business fighting in the ring get in there and fight... and more disheartening, win.

The last set of fights I attended featured one bout where two chubby guys (not fat, just chubby) went at it. One of the fellows was a JKD chap, and he eventually won his fight. The other guy looked like a 40 year old brawler. At the end of three minutes of the first 5 minute round, both guys were tired. Our JKD guy eventually ended up winning.

How?

The brawler threw a right that stunned JKD guy. JKD guy TURNED HIS BACK and got crowded into the corner. The brawler chased after him throwing a flurry of ineffective patty-cakes. Our JKD guy closed his eyes under the onslaught did a literal 360, and in the sheerist luck, caught the brawler under the jaw with a looping right hand, after missing with the initial crappy left (he just kept spinning till he hit something. It looked like something out of a Popeye cartoon, minus the spinach.

Utter Garbage. The worst part is that he'll get back in the ring thinking he actually did something. I asked later what his experience was, out of curiosity.

6 months JKD. No wrestling, no football, no nothing ever. Props to his heart, but dear Lord, WHY?!

Please shoot me if I ever allow myself or anybody I train to do that.

[bougeac]

hi prankster,

hmmm, i see your point about the quality of fighters who attend some of these tournaments but this particular tournament is not a "tough guy" contest, but features QUALITY martial artists.

i dont know anything about simon bloom (the wing chun guy) but ive seen some of the pics from the fight and he looks in pretty good shape to me!

the guy he fought is a shoot fighter (i think).

i recall another time when a wing chun guy entered a muay thai style tournament in the uk and lost to a muay thai fighter.

apparantly the wing chun guy was a chi sao "champion" and for a while after that wing chun got a bit slated in the uk martial arts press (stuff like "you cant use chi sao for fighting etc").

bottom line is, if you enter these sort of competitions against guys who train muay thai/shootfighting etc (guys who spar full on and are used to getting hit) unless you up the tempo of your own training (or ideally go and work out with shoot guys etc) youre likely to struggle.

thats my take on it.

later.

bougeac

[Merryprankster]

bottom line is, if you enter these sort of competitions against guys who train muay thai/shootfighting etc (guys who spar full on and are used to getting hit) unless you up the tempo of your own training (or ideally go and work out with shoot guys etc) youre likely to struggle.

Absolutely true!

Fight promotion is a crazy thing man. I don't know how the WC guy got there, so I have nothing to judge by.

I'm not implying that the WC guy was a bum, just pointing out that it gets wierd in the promotion world!

[old jong]

Wing Chun is a good system for self-defense and there is no doupt about that but, fighting in a ring against a professional fighter does not imply the same training routines.
How could a ordinary guy training a few times a week could expect to have an easy times against a fighting machine who lives and sleeps at the gymn and prtactice his anger skills in front of your picture?...
Success will comes to Wing Chun guys in MMA's competitions when they will train as hard and long as the other guys.

[black and blue]

... a Wing Chun master with 40-odd years WC under his belt would enter one of these events.

Just once.

What could be a better advert for their kwoon/organisation?

Augustine Fong or Leung Ting or William Cheung or Kenneth Cheung etc etc... any of the really big names. Just to show the martial arts community. Surely their skill exceeds that of a Frank Shamrock?



:p :)

[yuanfen]

IMHO- true atleat in one case. But who needs that advertisement.
We go over this again and again. Real beimo is illegal.

[black and blue]

Yuanfen says: "Real beimo is illegal"

Indeed, but so too is prostitution... and when I was in Thailand... I met this...

:eek:

(Kidding... just kidding)

[planetwc]

1. Strapping on the gloves will rob a Wing Chun man of a lot of his tools and ability to use Wing Chun's approach to delivering power. Once that occurs you are in the realm of having to do it like a boxer would and that is not Wing Chun's game.

2. To deal with someone of high caliber from the MMA arena you are going to have to hurt them to take them out. I think most of the people you mentioned are not interested to climb in a ring and do that IF things go their way. Doing the Rocky Balboa thing is not the way, nor is it likely that against a Shamrock or whoever they are going to just magically "outclass" them such that they don't have to hurt them or score a KO.

3. Being in an MMA/NHB fight is going to require training to establish a particular level of cardio and conditioning. And for what return? Perhaps for Leung Ting or William Cheung who are in the business of having large organizations. But then this is a young man's game.

Therefore, if one wants to pound and ground in the ring, better to be a master of pounding and grounding via Muay Thai, Boxing and groundfighting.

But of course one can always dream. :p



Originally posted by black and blue
... a Wing Chun master with 40-odd years WC under his belt would enter one of these events.

Just once.

What could be a better advert for their kwoon/organisation?

Augustine Fong or Leung Ting or William Cheung or Kenneth Cheung etc etc... any of the really big names. Just to show the martial arts community. Surely their skill exceeds that of a Frank Shamrock?



:p :)

[Brad]

Plus the older you are the greater the risk. If one of those guys get hurt, odds are they aren't going to heal as fast as they would have in their 20's.

[anerlich]

If WC is as effective a fighting system as some of its advertising might lead you to believe, it shouldn't need someone with 40 years' experience to clean house. And fighting is a sport for young people. At 47, convalescing from both a rib cartilage injury and a damaged ankle, believe me, I know.

Five years' training should give sufficient competence in the system to hold your own - assuming WC's advertising tells the truth.

Fact is the regime required for success in MMA competition is VERY different from that offered by most WC schools.

This only becomes an issue when WC zealots claim "our art is heaps deadlier than that grappling crap" or MMA loonies say that CMA is "useless in a fight". Sound like anyone you know?

As for the article, thanks for posting it. It's a bit hard to draw conclusions regarding the quality of the fighters, or WC's efficacy or otjherwise in MMA, from it, but IMO anyone getting into a ring deserves some props.

[yuanfen]

Yuanfen says: "Real beimo is illegal"

Indeed, but so too is prostitution... and when I was in Thailand... I met this...
---------------------------------------------------------------
Cheap prostitution is in many places illegal...but high class prositution can get one into some top flight social circles-check out the recent revelations about John Major's "morally" pure ministerial standards.... . Did you have to go to Thailand? I thought Trafalgar square
or Picadilly-
unless things have changed would do.

[black and blue]

LOL... Indeed, there are entertainments closer to home. I went to Thailand to teach... and for the Tom Yum and Moo Groeb. I can taste the memory of the food even now.

Mmmmmm.

Highlights of my time in Thailand:

1) Being chased down a road by 10 or so stray dogs and being 'rescued' by a rather attractive Aussie with large knockers.

2) Watching an illegal MT boxing bout (very, very nasty)

3) Eating myself into unconsciousness every day

4) Being able to out drink every Thai chap in the city (not hard to do)

5) Spending an entire day chilling out with monks on a floating temple... most relaxing and beautiful day of my life

Thailand is a great country... everyone should visit it once in their life.

[wtinfo]

I will never visit Thailand for one single reason, if I saw some fat guy holding a little boy or girl in his hands I think I would kill him.

It just disgusts me that perversions like that can happen all because of money, whoever does that or even walks by without saying / doing anything is in my oppinion just as bad and will hopefully live with the thought and guilt of that little boy or girl being abused for the rest of their lives.

Bah I feel sick just writing about it ...

:mad:

[black and blue]

The worst thing is that you see it so often you become desensitised. You see so much you realise it's a sick industry that will probably never go away.

Worst of all, it's the parents that usually sell their kids into the industry. The Thai's whole culture accepts exploitation of women and children. For a Westerner, living out their is a huge culture shift.

Bangkok is a mad city... you hate it to begin with, love it after that, then go full circle and start hating it again (which is when you get out).

It has so much that is worth seeing, unfortunately you can't escape seeing the side you'd rather not witness. A case of opening your mind to the good and then having to deal with the bad that seeps in with it.

[red5angel]

Is this supposed to be another one of those wing chun doesnt work in the ring threads?
Is there anyone here who doesnt think that if they trained 8-10 hours day, they couldn't use their wingchun in the ring?
Also, who here really believes that the ring is the ultimate test of whether something works or not.

[old jong]

I said it before.
If someone would train in Wing Chun as hard and as long as a pro-fighter should do,there is no reason he could not be succesful.
Being tough,fast,agressive,hard hitter and aware of the opponent basic strategy is a must !..It is clearly a field not recommended for the common practitioner,even if his Wing Chun is very good.It is not a question of how many hours someone put in a week but what are these hours like.
This can stand for any styles,I believe.

[anerlich]

Originally posted by red5angel
Is there anyone here who doesnt think that if they trained 8-10 hours day, they couldn't use their wingchun in the ring?

People such as Anthony Arnett and Rick Spain have already proved that this can be done, decades ago. Old news.


Also, who here really believes that the ring is the ultimate test of whether something works or not.

It's still the best LEGAL way to test your skills.

Lots better than making groundless boasts on the internet, or going to someone's school and doing chi sao with them for 60 seconds and then telling your mates and the internet at large that "Sifu X's chi sao is crap, I coulda taken him any time I wanted."

Weren't you just recently plugging a tourney with chi sao and continuous sparring competitions? Is that a waste of time too? If ring fighting is useless, why bother?

[vingtsunstudent]

let me just say this quickly about thailand.
not all foriegners holding childrens hands over there are sex offenders.(although i will agree that a lot probably are)
i'm an aussie and my uncle lives in phuket and has a thai wife and daughter, he has many friends over there in the same situation and i would hate to think that him holding his daughters hand may be seen as anything different than a father and daughter.
sorry, just needed to say that.
vts

[red5angel]

Anerlich - Is there a place we can go to find out more about Rick Spain and Anthony Arnetts successes in the ring?
As for tournemants, its a good place to test ones skill but you would be fooling yourself to think its the end all to be all of martial tests. As of late UFC has been a common example of what does and does not work, and in my opinion its more an example of why UFC does not work.

[anerlich]

Originally posted by red5angel
Anerlich - Is there a place we can go to find out more about Rick Spain and Anthony Arnetts successes in the ring?

You'd probably have to go to more than one place. There's an article on www.combatcentres.com regarding Rick Spain and his win in HK. If you wanted ring stats or whatever, you'd need to find someone who was around the kickboxing scene in Melbourne in the late 70's early 80's. Rick's had exhibition matches with Benny Urquidez and Bill Wallace also which were well publicised.

As for Sifu Arnett, you'd need to check William Cheung's website. Since you used to bore us all to death by admonishing us to get out and see things for ourselves, I'll give you www.google.com as a starting point.

You could also ask Marty Goldberg. I gather his and Carl's students fight occasionally at tournaments. He's pretty knowledgeable about such WWCKFA details.

I hope your interest is a quest for knowledge and not some desire to "prove" I'm making this up. Such a latter quest would work against your assertion that WC can be effectively adapted for the ring, and would not improve your profile on this board.


As for tournemants, its a good place to test ones skill but you would be fooling yourself to think its the end all to be all of martial tests.

So, hotshot, what is the "end all to be all [sic]" of martial tests?