Re: Kung Fu counters against takedowns [Archive]

jon

09-30-2002, 10:06 PM

Hi Friday
I need to give you a buzz ive just been flat out, promice i will very soon.

Takedown defences are often pretty similar accross various arts.

For a double leg the most effective thing to do is to simply get the heck out of the way and try to lead them into the ground. However if the opponent is skilled this is not really an option. For a commited double leg you will really need to learn to sprawl, this is simply dumping your upper body weight ontop of your opponent as they rush in while similtainously throwing your legs backwards. This will often bring both of you to the ground but your position if done correctly will be advantages.

CMA variant is basicaly the same but your try to force your opponent down AND backwards into a low tucked postion which combined with the impact from the fall will rupture there spine. Obviously this variant aint so usefull in the ring

Most variations on hip throws can be avoided by simply shifting your weight and staying on the move. Its also possible to shift your possition and try to get your hip under theres to actualy reverse the throw in your favor. Still this requires practice before it becomes usefull it also often simply turns into a wrestling match with you both going down (lol least with me).

One of the most important things to remember when dealing with takedown defences is that you need to be constantly aware of real world physics.
For example if i shoot a double leg and manage to lift you off the ground then obviously you aint sprawling no more and you now need to find a way to effect the fall in your favor. Also you must be constantly aware of your centre of gravity and avoid allowing your opponent to get underneith it.

Still the best real world weapon in close quaters to utalise against as good take down defence is a heavy offence in knee and elbow techniques. These are the bodys natural battering rams and are very hard to defend against if employed full power.
In other words avoid letting your opponent get a strong grip on you in first place by generaly making life a missery with a constant barrage of hard hitting elbows and knees. Most people will then try to get out of the range of those and then bingo your back in your prefered element.

SevenStar

09-30-2002, 10:43 PM

http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=16028

SevenStar

09-30-2002, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by Phrost
May edition of Inside Kung Fu magazine has a Hsing-I technique that would supposedly stop a shot attempt.

It looked really fishy though, because in order for the technique to work, the Hsing-I guy would have to be able to A. nullify/withstand the momentum of his opponent simply knocking him over, which is unlikely in the case of a 200+lb attacker against the average 150 lb Kung Fu guy, and B. the "shooter" would have to be aiming his head directly into the midsection of his target, which as anyone that's taken even highschool wrestling would know, isn't the way you execute a takedown.

I know of a takedown where you put your head into the opponent's midsection - the head is used as a lever, and the takedown is similar to a double leg. since you are going straight forward with the head and not to the side of the body, you don't have to worry about getting guillotined.

David Jamieson

10-01-2002, 01:29 AM

Here is a single technique that will defeat all other techniques.

Don't fight.

As for "the shoot". If you are going to defend against it, you have to train against it. If you want to train for real, train for real and use resisting partners. Be courteous and try to minimize any damage as much as possible.

But the "slow" method of training works too. It's just slower and you will not see the benefits from it until you are so good that you never have to use it.

Which brings us back to that first technique i mentioned. :D

peace

friday

10-01-2002, 01:37 AM

hi :)

yeah i've sort of started training with some guys who do other styles. i've had the takedowns done on me taking a passive perspective. ive also been given some tips. i'm just trying to get more ideas to try so that next time when we don some gloves etc
i'll actually try to defend against them.

Braden - yes we do do some takedowns in my style but thats not the focus.

Kung lek - yah i'm going to train against takedowns. i odn' think there is much margin for error particularly when your main game is standup

thanks seven for the link :)

Merryprankster

10-01-2002, 02:27 AM

CMA variant is basicaly the same but your try to force your opponent down AND backwards into a low tucked postion which combined with the impact from the fall will rupture there spine.

I always get a kick out of this stuff. Do you really believe this? Let's be a little more realistic. What you are describing MIGHT happen, but generally speaking, is unlikely. I'm sure that's what you meant.

Still the best real world weapon in close quaters to utalise against as good take down defence is a heavy offence in knee and elbow techniques. These are the bodys natural battering rams and are very hard to defend against if employed full power.
In other words avoid letting your opponent get a strong grip on you in first place by generaly making life a missery with a constant barrage of hard hitting elbows and knees. Most people will then try to get out of the range of those and then bingo your back in your prefered element.

I agree with the above only so far as you are attending to your balance FIRST, then attacking with knees and elbows. Trying to unload knees and elbows on a rapidly closing opponent whose sole intention is to smother your strikes and shut the space down is not a simple matter. I've also found that there are two typical responses of the untrained, not one--they will either back up, or they will continue to attempt to smother. How many times have you witnessed footage of or were present for a fight, and watched a guy take a few shots then dive for the body to stop the strikes? It happens as often as backing out.

Lastly, why train something only an untrained opponent would do? A trained takedown type is going to keep closing the distance aggressively while trying to take you down because he knows that jamming your strikes is the best way to accomplish both his offensive and defensive objectives.

Just my 2 cents. Note--I am not advocating to learn wrestling, do whatever you want. I personally believe that if you attend to your balance FIRST, you may follow up however you wish, but trying to do anything else amounts, 90% or more of the time, to winding up on your butt.

chingei

10-01-2002, 05:54 AM

Originally posted by jon

CMA variant is basicaly the same but your try to force your opponent down AND backwards into a low tucked postion which combined with the impact from the fall will rupture there spine.

oh, of course it will.

old jong

10-01-2002, 06:21 AM

Most Kung Fu styles are boxing arts devised to box against other boxing arts!...Unless you freeze the other guy before he can shoot or show perfect timing and precision you should consider alternate defenses such as the sprawll and practice them.Just in case!...Eh?...;)

Forget about any other exotic,esoteric or erotic answers to this type of attack.;) :D... Unless you really like to fight on your back! :eek:

couch

10-01-2002, 06:33 AM

Before they get in to that range, trained in Wing Chun and the concept could be translated to all styles, they have to make it trough a flurry of punches.

You could just keep hitting. They're going in for a takedown, but you're still punching their head.

Don't let them bridge that gap. Keep the distance where your style is comfortable to fight.

jon

10-01-2002, 06:57 AM

Merryprankster

"I always get a kick out of this stuff. Do you really believe this? Let's be a little more realistic. What you are describing MIGHT happen, but generally speaking, is unlikely. I'm sure that's what you meant."
* Hi Merry :)
First of all im certainly no grappling expert, i only dabble so far as to get myself back in my prefered element. That said ive actualy had this variation performed on me. It works...
Its certainly hard to actualy 'rupture' the spine but the whole point is the position your drive your opponent into. Its actualy very easy to dislodge the spine with the right amount of preasure and the right placement. However achiving both is not easy, i certainly dont say this is some supperiour method or even that its any more 'lethal' than a well executed regular sprawl. Still the fact does exist that there are some non sporting variations on the sprawl.

"I agree with the above only so far as you are attending to your balance FIRST, then attacking with knees and elbows. Trying to unload knees and elbows on a rapidly closing opponent whose sole intention is to smother your strikes and shut the space down is not a simple matter."
* Very good point and one which i should have made a little more clear. Knees in particular 'can' actualy be akin to suicide if your being rushed.

Still im a big believer in fighting fire with... water.
If my opponent is attempting to grapple ill be attempting to knock his head off his sholders. If he is attempting to knock mine off then ill be trying to close the gap to prevent that from happening.

"How many times have you witnessed footage of or were present for a fight, and watched a guy take a few shots then dive for the body to stop the strikes? It happens as often as backing out."
* True... however you would have to be a little shortsighted to say that its not one heck of a deterent. I dont regard knees and elbows as the be all and end all of takedown defence, just a very usefull method.

"Lastly, why train something only an untrained opponent would do? A trained takedown type is going to keep closing the distance aggressively while trying to take you down because he knows that jamming your strikes is the best way to accomplish both his offensive and defensive objectives."
* Hmmm kinda odd point.
I do see where you are comming from but to be honest im not THAT worried about being attacked by Royce Gracie. I only really see take down defences and grappling as way to get myself back where i can actualy do my damage.
For me to be constantly worried about what a 'good' grappler would do would involve a massive change in focuss. Sort of akin to saying that lead japs are no longer any use becouse a 'good' aikido exponent can simply snap your wrist.
I do see your point but as i say im more worried about what the average opponent will do than i am about professional mma fighter.
Still i do see the logic behind doing things properly, however again grappling is not MY personal focuss.

chingei
"oh, of course it will."
* Pardon me, i keep forgetting all the experts here who are only too happy to inform me of what will and wont work.
Now why not try and post how you would go about adapting your unbeatble no nonsence grappling to a street fight against two armed attackers and i can sit here and pick faults in your logic?

Honestly i actualy LIKE when people disagree but PLEASE at least give me the respect of actualy stating WHY you disagree. At least Merry had the guts to lay his ideas on the line up for public critisim.
As it stands your being a hypocrite, im a fool becouse i havent provided a reasonable explanation why my technique WOULD work. You are being a hypocrite by disagreeing without being able to provide a valid responce why you think it wouldnt.

Can your spine handle the pressure of being compressed into the floor by a skilled practioner who is dropping there entire bodywieght on you in a position which it clearly cant handle? Obviously you must be doing something im not becouse my spine is only bone. Titatinium alloy i hear is not comming in till next season.

Nichiren

10-01-2002, 07:18 AM

Dang, I liked the old guys techniques....

Look at the throw. I think someone knows some chui Chiao? (or Judo etc.). I also think the takedown counter was a tasty little sucker, he hocked the leading leg with his foot and wrestled him down that way. I wouldn't like him to try it on a heavier guy though. One thing I found curious was that the comments during this film went "taisabaki". That means something like "technique to move ones feet" in japanese??? Was he japanese???

/Cheers

Royal Dragon

10-01-2002, 08:14 AM

"Its certainly hard to actualy 'rupture' the spine"

Reply]
Really?? Then why are there so many people walking around with single or multiple herniated disks??

Chang Style Novice

10-01-2002, 08:14 AM

Anybody better at shuai chiao than I am care to explain "Downward Pulling" in some detail? It's been mentioned as an effective defence against the wrestling shoot by some very knowledgable folks on the SC list.

Paul?
Monkeyslap?
Neptune?

ShaolinTiger00

10-01-2002, 08:26 AM

I am not advocating to learn wrestling,

I will. Learn Wrestling.

:)

rogue

10-01-2002, 09:04 AM

Chain punches?:eek: Let's do the math, a person can close 20 feet in one second. A punch has an effective range of about 2 feet or so. So even if the guy is charging in from 20 feet out you have to set, start punching and hope one will stop him before you're smothered in that fraction of a second before you become initimate with him.

Braden

10-01-2002, 09:18 AM

Friday - My point is, what kind of a takedown. There's so many kinds, asking for a a technique to defend against them is like asking for a technique to defend against being struck. And moreover, presumably you're getting exposure to some aspects of this from your kungfu style.

Old Jong - I disagree. Many kungfu styles emphasize closing the distance aggressively to break the opponent's structure and balance. Certainly this is true of the internals, baji and pigua, and shuia chiao. Maybe not of most externals? The wing chun and, to a somewhat lesser extent, tanglang I've seen have been boxing-oriented.

Merryprankster

10-01-2002, 09:21 AM

Really?? Then why are there so many people walking around with single or multiple herniated disks??

Dunno. Why are there thousands of wrestlers, boxers and football players who's spines are fine?

Bodies are quirky things. Whatcha gonna do?

friday

10-01-2002, 09:43 AM

Braden,

I'm mainly interested in defense against the double leg, single leg BJJ takedown, plus would also be interested in takedowns that wrestlers use plus Shuai chiao. but i'm interested only in kung fu defenses not BJJ/wrestling etc. i'm aware of the sprawl and i am learning that too.

Braden

10-01-2002, 09:45 AM

What's your kungfu style?

Liokault

10-01-2002, 09:58 AM

In my class the main defense against some one trying to shoot under and take the legs is:

Assuming your in a front stance

As the guy comes under to take your legs....your lead leg moves back out of range.

Your lead hand makes contact with the guys head (hopfully from above coming down but depends on positioning) and strikes.....the blow turns into a push and youforce the guys head down to the ground (and try to tuck it under)

your second hand comes round and grabs your attacker by the groin. and pulls

This should lead (if you pushed the head down right) to the guy rolling forwards (which you can controle with both your hands).

The other main counter is much less interesting and ends in a gulliotine.

SevenStar

10-01-2002, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
"Its certainly hard to actualy 'rupture' the spine"

Reply]
Really?? Then why are there so many people walking around with single or multiple herniated disks??

By jumping out of trees 2 stories high! :D

SevenStar

10-01-2002, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Liokault
In my class the main defense against some one trying to shoot under and take the legs is:

Assuming your in a front stance

As the guy comes under to take your legs....your lead leg moves back out of range.

Your lead hand makes contact with the guys head (hopfully from above coming down but depends on positioning) and strikes.....the blow turns into a push and youforce the guys head down to the ground

The other main counter is much less interesting and ends in a gulliotine.

both are integral to your "one trick pony"...

Liokault

10-01-2002, 10:26 AM

Yeah but from there i got other choices than "go to ground....get arm bar"

SevenStar

10-01-2002, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Liokault
Yeah but from there i got other choices than "go to ground....get arm bar"

and a grappler doesn't? you should seriously find one to workout with. good wrestlers make excellent use of pressure points. then there is always GnP and other limbs to manipulate. elbows and knees, etc...

Liokault

10-01-2002, 10:44 AM

You are still missing my point.

I am not saying that you HAVE to go to the ground.

Nor am i saying that you do not train any stand up.

But i am questioning what BJJ has to offer to stand up? And i am if your training will compel you to go to the ground even if its not a good idea because thats what you train for. And to quote so many MMA guys on this forum "train like you fight".

Royal Dragon

10-01-2002, 12:00 PM

"Dunno. Why are there thousands of wrestlers, boxers and football players who's spines are fine?"
reply]
Maybe, but here are alot of EX footbal players with herniated disks. Boxers are not thrown hard on th eground, and wreastlers have mats to make their landings all soft and "cusshy like."

Football players who have no mats to fall on (they are padded though), especiually the colledge ones who are not as athletically gifted as the pros DO end up with disk problems, so to power lifters and gymnasts.

And Yes Seven star, guy who think they are stuntmen and jump out of trees too :D

SevenStar

10-01-2002, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by Liokault
You are still missing my point.

I am not saying that you HAVE to go to the ground.

Nor am i saying that you do not train any stand up.

But i am questioning what BJJ has to offer to stand up? And i am if your training will compel you to go to the ground even if its not a good idea because thats what you train for. And to quote so many MMA guys on this forum "train like you fight".

what is has to offer for standup is takedowns. clinch work and takedowns. What does taiji offer on the ground?

Chang Style Novice

10-01-2002, 12:17 PM

"What does taiji offer on the ground?"

Uh...rooting?:D

Royal Dragon

10-01-2002, 12:19 PM

I think Friday is looking for anti takedowns that work, so he can deal with the grappel heads without having to become one himself.

I sugjest you start really looking at your forms. Good movement is in there. You just have to figure it out.

Take downs require openings just like anything else. Don't give them that to begin with. Try a stick and move stratigy. Attack their limbs, redirect their center, follow.

What has worked for me in the past, as they charge in, step back and presss their face into the ground real hard, grind it in there a bit, then kneel on their neck to hold them there. Us alot of weight so they know you really have them.

If they figure out what your doing and back off before you can get them, turn it into a face pounding fest wile they are still in the emptyness of indecision. Your hands will be right there, and so is thier face at that point, take advantage of it.

Merryprankster

10-01-2002, 03:22 PM

What has worked for me in the past, as they charge in,

Charge in?! Who are you sparring--the local drunk?

I can think of several powerlifters, gymnasts and wrestlers, etc, with no permanent problems. I can think of several with nagging injuries. Only one I know with a spine problem.

Bottom line--let's talk in probabilities. You ain't snapping somebody's spine with a takedown defense, 99.999999999999% of the time. I therefore don't like saying it's a possibility. I mean, I COULD get vaporized by a nuclear weapon. It's possible, right?

chingei

10-01-2002, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by jon

chingei
"oh, of course it will."
* Pardon me, i keep forgetting all the experts here who are only too happy to inform me of what will and wont work.

--Sorry I didn't respond sooner; I was washing my hair this morning and, wouldn't ya know it, my neck snapped! Took me all day to get it back on right.

Now why not try and post how you would go about adapting your unbeatble no nonsence grappling to a street fight against two armed attackers and i can sit here and pick faults in your logic?

--I'm sure your doctor could answer this question a bit better but---when did the voices in your head inform you that I had ever mentioned such a thing?

Honestly i actualy LIKE when people disagree but PLEASE at least give me the respect of actualy stating WHY you disagree. At least Merry had the guts to lay his ideas on the line up for public critisim.

--"Guts"? is it an act of courage to elaborate on patently ridiculous statements? Merry is simply a much more thoughtful interlocutor than I.

Can your spine handle the pressure of being compressed into the floor by a skilled practioner who is dropping there entire bodywieght on you?

--yes.

Obviously you must be doing something im not becouse my spine is only bone. Titatinium alloy i hear is not comming in till next season.

this is just the type of statement that screams "no practical experience whatsoever"

chingei

10-01-2002, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
I am not advocating to learn wrestling,

I will. Learn Wrestling.

:)

well said.

chingei

10-01-2002, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

What has worked for me in the past, as they charge in, step back and presss their face into the ground real hard, grind it in there a bit, then kneel on their neck to hold them there. Us alot of weight so they know you really have them.

no offense, but it sounds like you had some real chumps on your hands.

tnwingtsun

10-01-2002, 09:23 PM

"Let's do the math, a person can close 20 feet in one second."

Right on the money,but why get "Set"?

That takes too long.

Its simple physics,no chi bouncing,no tremor power.

Its all Relativity, if you train in high level kung-fu

it has all of the tools,notice I said "High level"

The high level systems have the tools to deal with

the ground fighters,from what I see on this forum few

have figured it out,be a mirror to your opponet,standing up or on the ground.
you want theorys?

The tools should be in you system,if not find another one.

I've been lucky that my training saved me against a well trained ground fighter.

Look at a bullfighter,as this may seem to be a simple solution
to a complex situation,once the distance is covered by the
groundfighter is the CMA guy going to "get set",in my house the answer is NO!

The bottom line to me is that I need to be aware of the sitution
before it comes down,this may not answer your question
but I don't feel the need to explain how I delt with the groundfighter.

I will tell you once again without going into what I did that it was
Relative to my attacker.

"A young reporter once asked Einstein(after he left Germany and arrived in NYC) what the eighth wonder of the world is,he replyed,compound interest"

Nichiren

10-02-2002, 12:56 AM

I just have to add a detail about takedowns.

An intermediate grappler going for a takedown ain't gonna "charge" in. And the reason grapplers use sprawling (instead of pushing down with hands) is that a grappler doesn't sacrifice the base trying for a takedown. They straighten their backs immediately. The back is the strongest part of ones body and it is nearly impossible to "press" someone down using only hands.

/Cheers

jon

10-02-2002, 01:06 AM

chingei

"Sorry I didn't respond sooner; I was washing my hair this morning and, wouldn't ya know it, my neck snapped! Took me all day to get it back on right."
* Thats allright, i was walking down the street and was suddenly pulled into the gaurd by a mugger then repeably asked to submit to having my wallet stolen.

"I'm sure your doctor could answer this question a bit better but---when did the voices in your head inform you that I had ever mentioned such a thing?"
* Voices in my head? Are we feeling a little insecure today? Maybe need to try and get a leg over on someone else huh?
You didnt make a point which had any validity and instead tried to pick on mine all whilst staying out of the line of fire yourself.
Hence i called you on it and asked if you would like to put yourself on the chopping block. obviously you dont have anything worth hearing so we can go home happy.

"--"Guts"? is it an act of courage to elaborate on patently ridiculous statements?"
*"patently rediculous"
Yeah good point, about the same amount of use as replying to overwieght fanboys who have never actualy trained a day in there life and who's whole knowledge of fighting arts is gleamed from 2 yo repeats of the UFC.
Trust me fool you make my day, nothing i enjoy more than being insulted by some git who cant construct a valid argument.

"Merry is simply a much more thoughtful interlocutor than I."
* You mean he is actualy capable of stating an opinion, you apperently know all yet can tell nothing. A likely story...

"yes"
* Rediculous unbacked rubbish!!!
If you could actualy back that up with fact i may even be impressed.

"this is just the type of statement that screams "no practical experience whatsoever"
* This is the type of statement that screams 'im a stuck up moron with no factual basis for my arguements what so ever, but your STILL WRONG NER NER...

Good on ya chingi you had a go, still next time please dont bring a knife to a gun fight.
Really, i didnt insult you I only asked for you to back up your post, apperently this you deemed as insulting which says a lot for your charactor.
Now do you have some blue prints for that brain of yours im trying to build a sexualy repressed, half baked moron at home?

In all seriousness.
I meant my original point about not minding people disagreing but prefering some kind of valid argument to go along with there point of view. I have no wish in a trade of insults and frankly i only posted this to prove a point. If i wish to be a non constructive idiot who only posts to put down others thats VERY easy. For me to actualy put my points of view up for scuritiny requires a LOT more effort.
I dont really care what you choose to do with yourself, heck ill still be happy. Still i cant help but recomend you get over your know it all attitude and open your mind to what other people are doing.
Its very easy to hide behind one word replies and sarcastic answers, i can play that game to trust me.
All im asking is if you truely believe you know something i dont then PLEASE inform me of what you think that is. After all we are 'apparently' here to learn and not simply to bicker.
All the best chingi i hope you take this post as it was intended.
Failing that you can always pick it apart paragraph by paragraph and add in your own studip comment at the end of each. The choice my friend, is yours :)
All the best, happy training.
Jon

chingei

10-02-2002, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by jon

All the best chingi i hope you take this post as it was intended.
Failing that you can always pick it apart paragraph by paragraph and add in your own studip comment at the end of each. The choice my friend, is yours :)
All the best, happy training.
Jon

Well let's see...I'll spare everyone else the pain of examining each of your insecure schoolgirl taunts individually, and ignore the contradiction in your transparent attempt to pre-empt your own favored tactic of picking apart paragraphs. I'll even try to resist the invitation to ridicule your laughable attempts to stroke your own ego and simply point out that you made a statement that anyone who has actually spent time on a mat recognizes as without merit. Maybe you were trying to be dramatic. You do seem like the "flamboyant" type. It's clear that you are uncomfortable with your own words and are now lashing out blindly in an attempt to cover yourself. Give it up. It ain't working.

jon

10-02-2002, 05:22 AM

chingei
Yes well that made perfect sence. Still at least you managed to get a few full sentences out. Ill make sure im more carefull about asking 'the pros' (which obviously you are) before i ever offer anyone any of my own training up as an example. Yeah i may have lashed out a little but heck your not exactly much of a conversationalist yourself. I also bothered to try and make some sort of a mens. I guess i should have not bothered.
Whatever its no mind :)

The fact remains we are both going around in circles (my prefered element;) ) We are now both starting to trade the same worn out insults and are both trying to out do each other with nothing more than petty ego inflating bs.

I wont bother to match your post and make everyone else sit though another silly load of babble. Cant help however but be a little dissapointed. I only tried in the first place to help a fellow cma out with what i use as takedown defences. Its a sad state of affairs when posters have to feel like they cant post things of any factual nature due to someone else from a different frame of mind having a sarcastic dig at it.:(

Royal Dragon

10-02-2002, 05:40 AM

It's all just a common football tackle in the end. Just step back and lean on'em. Their weight is forward, their balance is forward, they are expecting you to get caught as they drive forward to bring you down. Step back, grab their heads and take them down, then kneel on thier necks untill they give up.

"Where the head goes so does the body".

The key is to act BEFORE they get their hands around you and move you behind your own center. Stepping back brings your center ****her back so they have to extend more to make the takedown work, thus giving you more time and space to work.

It's common sense really.

Royal Dragon

10-02-2002, 05:41 AM

******, why are we censoring "****her" again??????

Merryprankster

10-02-2002, 05:45 AM

jon

10-02-2002, 05:59 AM

Im sorry but i always wanted to say this and within this thread about now it just seems to irrisistable.
To quote Bart Simpson...
"I didnt think it was possible but this both sucks and blows"

This thread is so doomed to be nothing but a haven for grapplers to dissagree with strikers about something we know very little about in the first place.

Do any grapplers out there have a solid workable takedown defence against a double leg AFTER they have a good hold but before you are lifted... heres the kicker, that does not involve going to the ground?

If so can they PLEASE post it and maybe we can actualy get this thread moving back in the direction im guessing it was intended.

I will promice to leave the spine rupturing (I so regret that choice of words) out of it for a while... maybe;)

Merryprankster

10-02-2002, 06:04 AM

Yes, Overhook (****zer grip) on one side, cross-face with the other arm or push their head away, drop your weight onto their shoulder with your shoulder and shuck them off.

Of course, you actually need to know how to sprawl and/or use your hips to do this one. Sprawling doesn't mean going to the ground.

Jon--for a productive thread, go to the WC forum and check out the larger grappling thread. I don't remember the title off the top of my head.

Merryprankster

10-02-2002, 06:06 AM

's called "Defense when grappler shoots in."

chingei

10-02-2002, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by jon
Cant help however but be a little dissapointed.

--you'll be all right

Its a sad state of affairs when posters have to feel like they cant post things of any factual nature

the "factual nature" is where more than a few people have tried to point out the problem in your previous post

chingei

10-02-2002, 06:50 AM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Yes, Overhook (****zer grip) on one side, cross-face with the other arm or push their head away, drop your weight onto their shoulder with your shoulder and shuck them off.

Of course, you actually need to know how to sprawl and/or use your hips to do this one. Sprawling doesn't mean going to the ground.

Yes!!! Preach!

Royal Dragon

10-02-2002, 07:40 AM

Why will THIS work, but what I said not???

"Yes, Overhook (****zer grip) on one side, cross-face with the other arm or push their head away, drop your weight onto their shoulder with your shoulder and shuck them off."

It sounds like the same thing, or principal to me.

You then go on to say
"Of course, you actually need to know how to sprawl and/or use your hips to do this one. Sprawling doesn't mean going to the ground. "

What is a Sprawl?? Is'nt it scooting back to get your center back ****her??

It sounds to me like we are doing the same thing pretty much only I add a kneeling sleeper to the end of it and use deeper stances.

KC Elbows

10-02-2002, 07:48 AM

Should we be so dead set against going to the ground? Don't we all agree that a fight is a free for all where anything can happen? Why then do many of us(including myself at times) feel that we can create an absolute where we will never be stuck ground fighting? After all, if our only techniques are about getting up again, can't our opponent use that against us?

In the documentary Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey, there is footage of Hong Kong rooftop fights. During one fight, a wing chun stylist and another fighter end up on the ground, then both get up and continue the fight. What if one of them, using the martial principles that are supposed to be nearly universal in kung fu, flowed into an immediate attack on their opponent on the ground? Would this have been such a horrible thing for kung fu? I'm not judging those fighters at all, I thought the fight was pretty cool, but I have fought with the same intensity as they did, and I know a great many others who have fought that way and harder. I'm sure many on this forum have fought as hard. But they let each other stand up, and sure, they rushed to be the first up so that the other couldn't mount an offensive, but the fact remains that the fight, for one brief moment, lacked an offender and a defender because everyone was on the ground. i.e. no one was attacking, yet they were in a fight, and there was opportunity.

Doesn't this go against everything kung fu teaches us?

I'm not saying everyone needs to study groundfighting, just as I'm not saying everyone has to study basket weaving. I'm just saying that ground fighting is in keeping with the principles of kung fu, so it's OK to do it, and it's every bit an art as stand up, and not as simple as some would make it out to be.

Now, please break up this argument by taking it one step further. Your takedown defense fails because your opponent, as is want to happen, gets one step ahead of you. Or, better yet, you are on the ground when the altercation begins(intruder in the house, you were sleeping, whatever, you start out on the ground). How do you maximize your ability to survive in that case? After all, a takedown, like every other move, is not a guarantee, merely a technique that can prove unsuccessful. What is our understanding past that? Or do we believe that we can make it so that it is impossible to be on the ground?;)

OK, I gotta go again, back to bidness. I'll talk to you all in a few weeks.

Backup topic for discussion: Shrimping: worse than crawdadding, or better than a choke out?

chingei

10-02-2002, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Why will THIS work, but what I said not???

"Yes, Overhook (****zer grip) on one side, cross-face with the other arm or push their head away, drop your weight onto their shoulder with your shoulder and shuck them off."

It sounds like the same thing, or principal to me.

how is that the same as:

"Just step back and lean on'em. Step back, grab their heads and take them down, then kneel on thier necks untill they give up."

KC Elbows

10-02-2002, 08:04 AM

Or just continue the same circular argument on who knows what. That'll bring some closure to this.:rolleyes:

KC Elbows

10-02-2002, 08:12 AM

Exactly how are us traditional folks supposed to compare notes on learning ground techniques consistent with our kung fu game if every time someone brings the discussion up, it turns into a argument about who knows what? Aren't we all old enough to determine what works best and whose opinion we trust on each topic?

Somehow I don't think a thread on shuffling methods would lead to any major arguments, even if poster 1 preferred his own method over poster 2.

Here's an idea. If we find ourselves arguing groundwork related threads with the same sort of out of hand vehemence as political threads or religious ones, maybe we should butt out and leave those threads to those who can hold a normal discussion about martial principles and techniques.

This is very generally aimed, not at one specific person or camp.

OK, I really have to go.

friday

10-02-2002, 08:20 AM

hi KC Elbows

:) honestly, i really understand what you mean etc. personally i wouldn't mind picking up some groundfighting from whoever, whatever style it is as long as it is good stuff. i always keep an openmind about these kinds of things. i have a lot of respect for kung fu, for japanese arts, BJJ, boxing etc.

but the purpose at the moment for myself which is why i started this thread was to see what kind of suggestions kung fu stylists had when defending against takedowns that try to hurt u by making u kiss the floor, the wall, etc or take u to the ground so that they can submit u, break a limb or two or basically watever.

u see i want to train against these with real ppl which i have sort of begun with some good ppl ive met from thsi forum :). at the moment my goal is to see what i can do with the little ive learnt from my style. this is really just part of a broader goal and that is to get better at being spontaneous, at fighting, at sparring, etc and implementing my techniques in a real time, higher pressure situation. as well as improving fitness, drills, etc along the way. at the moment my goal isn't to incorporate groundfighting from judo, bjj etc or watever into what i train. it may be something i'm interested in in the future but not right now.

personally i'm not interested in strikers vs grapplers or some of the arguemnts that inevitably happen in threads like these. what u guys suggest, i'm going to try (within limits of course ;) i'm going to figure out what works for me what odesn't.

when i start these threads i want to read constructive opinions that will help me with what i'm trying to do. healthy debate is fine. but retorts that degenerate into meaningless garble isn't what i want.

if u guys have something to teach me i'm happy to read/listen etc or meet up. we can spar etc, fight, blahblah. asl ong as your not nutcases or psychos of course. :). so give me your suggestions. btw i'm going to learn the guillotine and the sprawl as well from my BJJ friend. i got hit at the back of the neck when i tried to execute a really crappy single leg on a praying mantis friend. lol it takes some skill to do it quick and efficiently.

Chingei
hi tell us your defences and approach against takedowns like the BJJ single and double :)
thanks

friday

10-02-2002, 08:23 AM

lol
i just noticed something arn't the single and double and sprawl etc kinda groundfighting anyway?
anyway i'm sure u all know what i meant and if u didn't
....ehhh don't worry about it
;)

Royal Dragon

10-02-2002, 08:23 AM

chingei
What's the core principal with your method? Is it not move the center back and lean on them??

The core principal of my mehtod is "move the center back and lean on them"

The only difference "I" see is the prefered details.

Maybe I'm not doing a good job of explianing my thoughts here, but it just seems to be such a no brainer that there should not be a dissagreement. Am I missing something?

friday

10-02-2002, 08:26 AM

i think what i'd try and do at least i'm more inclined to at the moment when someone goes for the shoot is to move to the sides...actually i'd be moving all the time anyway :)

then when they get close enuff (my close enuff not theirs) i'd hammer them with a few strikes while constantly moving around. i'm going to get the chance to try this soon :) i'll let u all know how it goes ;) even if i do get hammered :P

KC Elbows

10-02-2002, 08:30 AM

Hello Friday.

This thread is valid, I wasn't being critical of it. More, I was being critical of the stupid ass argument that broke out on it. Basically, Chingei, Merry, and RD hijacked this thread, and let me tell you, you can't let these *******s get away with it, cause next thing you know, their sleeping with your momma, and who gets stuck raising their ugly little babies? That's right, you.

Not that I'm bitter. Family is important after all.:D

Now I REALLY have to get back to my work.

Later.

Royal Dragon

10-02-2002, 08:36 AM

He wanted a Kung Fu way to deal with it, I gave him what he wanted. the Grapple heads don't agrre and tried to turn it inot a grpple rules war. I am maintaining that we can and are doing the same thing, only with our own flair to it. The principal seems to be the same to me. Just the footwork is different.

Now, if I really wanted to hijack this thread, i'd be talking about "Got Qi" girls and Bacon Sammitches.............hhhhmmmmmmmmmm, Bacon Saaaaaaaaamitchesssssssss............... mmmmmmmmmm, gooooooood........................................ ........................... :p

KC Elbows

10-02-2002, 08:38 AM

Royal Dragon

10-02-2002, 08:39 AM

How long till we get KC fired??:eek:

friday

10-02-2002, 08:45 AM

haha thanks KC i know u weren't criticising the thread or me etc. lol if u knew me better u'd probably know that i wouldn't take it that way. :)
and thanks RD i know what u were trying to do.

one thing ive noticed with the grapplers vs the strikers is that
okokokok
u guys all think what u do works and have mayb or probably tested it all out but pls pls pls can the arrogant tone when u try to tell someone that u think their approach of ideas can be improved on or wont' work.

u know its the itnernet hellooooo we can't hear your voice or tone. u might be typing some words with all angelic intentions etc but we don't know that. so gimme a break
Type stuff that helps me hey ive got grapplers, i got strikers, i got judo friends, kung fu, bjj, we can all fight and see what happens.
u know i'm kinda tired now so i'm ont really typing that eloquently tonite. i'm just getting sick of all the verbal, text fights that happen on threads. yes yes i know its the internet u guys can do what u like its your right blahblahblah...haha some non relevant stuff
i'm going to meet up with my friends bro who is a former kickboxing champion and currently ranked no.2 boxer in AUstralia (amatuer) and see what boxing is like. :)

SevenStar

10-02-2002, 09:05 AM

Once upon a time, I thought merely moving to the side was a good option to. then I found out that you really don't have time to. They don't shoot from three feet away, they shoot from clinching distance.

regardless, I'd like to hear how it goes. When are you trying it? are you trying it against grapplers or other people from your school?

Chang Style Novice

10-02-2002, 09:07 AM

Okay, I've watched the shoot videos that MP posted from the wrestling sites. The general sequence seems to go something like this

1. While squaring off standing, look for opponent to commit to relatively high contact (shoulder height or thereabout)

2. Once opponent has done this, duck quickly under and step forward, grasping for the legs.

3. When you've got the legs, pick the opponent up and dump him backward or sideways.

So, the basic sprawl defense is to grasp around the shooters waist from behind, back up your feet so he can't get a usable grip on you legs, and push your weight forward and down onto himtrying to force him to the ground face down.

My perhaps incredibly stupid question is this: why not try to 'leapfrog' over him when he's low enough to shoot in a sort of forward somersault over the back, land on your feet behind the guy and then try to get space between the two of you (in a streetfight you'd just run like the wind, in a sport context you might even try a diagonal roll over the guy to end up with a back/side position)?

Please keep in mind that I have basically no experience with wrestlers or shoot-type attacks and that I've already admitted this may be an incredibly stupid question.

friday

10-02-2002, 09:18 AM

hi sevenstar

it will be against grapplers, specifically BJJ.
ive seen how it works (no expert) and if u aren't trained to do it i don't think u can do it quick enuff etc or have appropriate timing either so there wouldn't really be any point having kung fu guys who aren't trained in BJJ takedowns to do it on me.
i'm interested in kung fu takedowns or japanese arts etc as well. i mean basically anything that trys to get me onto the ground. but at the moment i'm really interested in the bjj single and double.

friday

fa_jing

10-02-2002, 09:23 AM

Maybe this will help the discussion - a proper double leg takedown is NOT like a football tackle. The person doing the takedown gets in a sort of crouch with one knee on the ground, grabs near your ankles with both hands and pulls back as he pushes his shoulder into your legs, and lifts. Properly executed, the shooter's back is near vertical, and his hips are nearly directly below his shoulders. That's why a pull down won't work if the shooter is in far enough.

CSN - maybe a dive over his back into a roll would be more efficient. Still, the danger is that with his feet under him, he could stand up and catch you in the air. IMO, though, the dive-over could work out of the surprise factor. But in a sport competition, it is not easy to surprise your opponent.

Here's a scenario, not for a shoot- you get a reverse headlock on him, he lifts you up, and you do a forward roll down his back, might get you a choke, or you could try to throw him by the head???

Merryprankster

10-02-2002, 09:37 AM

Royal,

A sprawl is very much like what you described but not quite the same. You have to get BOTH legs out of the way. The fact that you think a shot is similar to a tackle tells me that you really haven't faced even an intermediate level wrestler. What you have described in your posts is the head down, I'm gonna get you, frat boy tackle. A shot is a well balanced leg attack that bears as much resemblance to the tackle as the jab does to a drunken roundhouse swipe. I'm not knocking you. It's a training gap. We all have them.

Leaping back, using a deeper stance, and redirecting is not enough against a committed shot for the very simple reason that you're handing the opponent at least one of your legs. The position you assume at the end--putting your knee in the back of their neck, and the description you have of how you go about redirecting their head into the ground, leads me to believe that you are "too high" throughout the entire movement. A wrestler with anything even close to proper posture during the shot is going to blow right by your arms because they are at the wrong angle and will have easy access to your center. In the event that you do happen to get back, at least one of your legs is likely to be in jeopardy. I'll take two if I can get it, but I'm actually better at finishing the single.

Too high is not a reference to stance height. It's a reference to center of gravity relative to desired objective. Your method, as you describe it, allows the person who is shooting to continue turning into you with a reshot until you fall over. You would have to be lightening fast--and I mean fast well beyond human reflexes, in order to leap back in stance, lean in and avoid a committed shot.

The sprawl is a transitory technique. It is nothing more than a stance shift. Its purpose is to stuff the shooter, allowing you to remain on your feet, or control the opponent if you choose. Nobody need remain on the ground from a sprawl.

The old, leap back, sink your root and redirect isn't enough to stop a shot. It's that simple. If this WERE enough to stop a shot, grapplers of all types would be doing it because it would beat the hell out of sprawling! Who wouldn't love to get a take down like that?! I know a lot of you won't agree with that statement--you'll tell me that just because grapplers don't do "insert your method here," doesn't mean it won't work. That's fine. But I tend to trust the knowledge of millions of grappling matches w/regard to leg attacks, over arts that do not specialize in them.

Merryprankster

10-02-2002, 09:46 AM

CSN,

If you are in a position where you can grab the other guy's waist, the shooter is too close--you've let him in too far, and now it's a fight to get out. Jumping over him is um, unlikely I think. Assume your fighting stance. Now jump forward as far as you can. Unless you can clear about 9 feet forward and about 4 feet up, I don't think it's a good idea, even if you tuck and roll. You could try it, but I'm going to go with the "I don't see how this would work." Not that it's a stupid idea to suggest it, I'm just thinking about my wrestling and not seeing any way this makes sense at all. Maybe once you've controlled the guy and can stuff him to buy time... remember, if I see you coming off the ground, I'm going to adjust my shot midstream to come up sooner than before.

Fa_jing--in a word, no. If you try to go over his back, he'll dump you off. Your weight is too high, and you have no leverage to apply pressure. By contrast, he is coiled like a spring and can easily come up underneath you. It would be the mother of all uprootings... and a nasty fall if controlled you all the way up and slammed you.

Royal Dragon

10-02-2002, 09:47 AM

Hmmm, I see the difference. I think in order to make my method work well in that situation, the practitioner would need a tremendious amount of traditional stance work, something Kung Fu guiys do quite alot of, and MMA guys shun like the plague.

The way I see it, if you have time to sprawl, you can step back into a deep bow stance, and really lean your weight on them. This will give you the footing to roll them sideways and drop into the kneeling sleeper. It's all in the way you place you weighting, and how stable your stances are.

Just to be clear, I have done this with sucsess stepping back with my left and ending with a right kneeling sleeper, but if I step back with me right I often got taken down.

Merryprankster

10-02-2002, 09:48 AM

. Properly executed, the shooter's back is near vertical, and his hips are nearly directly below his shoulders. That's why a pull down won't work if the shooter is in far enough.

F-ing BRILLIANT observation. I knew it from experience, but you have GREAT eyes and a good understanding of the mechanics. Nicely done.

FWIW, the grab can be done anywhere from the knee down, ideally, or if you get above the knee, ah, well. Take what you can get sometimes :)

Merryprankster

10-02-2002, 09:50 AM

RD,

Post a link to your bow stance, or something like it. I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about. :D

old jong

10-02-2002, 09:51 AM

Unless you are so good that you become unmovable or unliftable like we can see in demos by old masters in internal arts ,aikido and others,I suggest that you accept the fact that sprawlling makes lots of sense.
The only other choice is to attack fiercefully and beat the guy before he can even do his thing.

Look's like they did'nt have to deal with that in old China!....;) But we do!...

Merryprankster

10-02-2002, 09:53 AM

I don't see a lot of leg attacks in CMA, at least not from what you guys have shown me! I bet they did have some, and I bet the counter looked a lot like sprawling :)

Chang Style Novice

10-02-2002, 09:56 AM

MP

Yeah, I figured elevation would be the big limiting factor for a leapfrog type manuever - but in those examples you posted, the guy was really low, so I thought maybe there would be some way to take advantage of that. I still think there probably is, but it would take some actual experience that I don't have to figure out what it would be.

As for my description of a sprawl as including a grip around the waist - I'm using the word "waist" very broadly here, ie: between armpits and hips. As the shooter comes in, a sprawl means (basically, if I understand it right) the defender gets ahold of the shooter from above before the shooter can get ahold of the defender from below, while simultaneously keeping the lower body far enough away from the shooter to prevent a grab from underneath from occurring, right?

SevenStar

10-02-2002, 10:00 AM

friday, are there any shuai chiao schools near you?

fa_jing

10-02-2002, 10:04 AM

Anywhere below the knees sounds right. Also, credit my teacher for showing us what a proper double leg TD looks like, and how to perform it (mine need work).

About the roll over the back thing, yes, you're right I didn't consider the slam, it would definitely take out someone trying to be fancy when they get lifted. I think the key if you get a reverse headlock, is try to work yourself in front of them while controlling the head, without getting lifted up. Dropping hips would help, and leaning forward. You may get a guillotine choke out of it. However, I've been fireman's carried from this postion so I was wondering what to do, if you get lifted up over someone's head? I know I know, try not to let it happen in the first place, but there must be something you can do to better your chances?

Royal Dragon

10-02-2002, 10:12 AM

I'll see if I can find one. Just to be clear, this is my own move developed to work against my sister's boyfriend. He was a wrestling fanatic, and would shoot in low like you see video's of the BJJ guys doing quite often.

Take a regular Kung fu bowstance, the really deep one so your center is low but with more width like Taiji's climbing the Mountain stance. (Again, you have to prety be a traditionally trained Kung Fu guy to be comfortabe and agile in this posture, MMA's totally skip the stance training nessasary for this). Now, asuuming you already stepped back he has your leg already and you have his head, rock it sideways and down really hard and suddenly. This will pull them forward and off balance. The shoulder will now be forward of the hips. Then, slam him down on the ground. You will also be off balance now, and the easiest way to regaing your balance is to put your knee in his now downed neck. You have to know how to "Close Kua" to keep youself centered or you will and up tumbling over them hands first (Again something only traditional stance training will enable you to do here).

Now falling on your hands is all fine as there are a number of Bjj things you could easily do from here, but the question was strictly limited to traditional Kung Fu methods which are geared to keep you standing or so close to it you can pop up with speed and stability if you have to deal with other attackers or escape.

Merryprankster

10-02-2002, 10:15 AM

Well, there are a couple of things:

1. Roll with it. Sometimes, the best thing is to realize when you're beat and minimize the damage. Imagine what happens if you get fireman's carried and you stick your face out. Shudder.

2. You learn to use their body as your post to get your hips back. You can sometimes turn in such a way to overbalance your opponent, and wind up on top (rare) or at least get away (more probable).

Mostly, however, if your feet are off the ground and control is good, your f-ed. Even half a toe down is something to work with though...

CSN, yeah, more or less. I prefer to be out in front of their shoulders though. Try not to get into the armpits to their waist from the back. Too easy to work to you.

I think the key if you get a reverse headlock, is try to work yourself in front of them while controlling the head, without getting lifted up. Dropping hips would help, and leaning forward. You may get a guillotine choke out of it.

Bingo. GOOD eyes again. As for getting firemaned from here--well, that's a standard counter. Keep your elbows pinched in, but especially on the side where his head makes contact with your arm, and drop your hip more while applying forward pressure. Takes the fireman's away.

fa_jing

10-02-2002, 10:29 AM

MP - are you planning to become a MA teacher one day? As in running a school? Reason I ask is that you seem like you would make a good one. I myself would like to teach, after several mor e years of training.

Braden

10-02-2002, 01:09 PM

RD - With what you're describing, try stepping back and to one side at 45o, and use a rear stance rather than a bow stance. Level shift with/before him, establish head and arm control and use this in coordination with the stepping and sinking to 'split' his energy, ie. like rotating him along a line drawn from one of his shoulders to his opposite side's hip (or, like pushing his face into his armpit); which side depends on which side you've stepped to, which should depend on where you've allready got a small angle to begin with.

Dunno if it'll work, but it might work a bit better than what you described (indeed, if I'm picturing it right, which no doubt I'm not).

One of the things, I think, to aim for isn't just to try to counter the takedown, but to have a 'back up plan' of hitting the ground with superior position and posture if you both happen to go down.

friday

10-02-2002, 05:04 PM

HI Sevenstar,

there aren't any shuai jiao schools that train that specifically that i know of. i got the contact details of a school that trained shuai jiao as part of their curriculum but i haven't been for a visit yet.

Friday

Royal Dragon

10-02-2002, 05:21 PM

"One of the things, I think, to aim for isn't just to try to counter the takedown, but to have a 'back up plan' of hitting the ground with superior position and posture if you both happen to go down."

Reply]
This is exactly why I do what I do. It practically sucks me into the kneeling sleeper.

Braden,
I think this is sort of the concept. The Bow I use is rather wide. Try stepping into the wide horse stance, and go directly to a bow from there. See, how it brings you off to the side??now, turn towards your back leg to execute a 90 degree turn so the right leg is now back. This is sort of what I do. When under the gun, you pull your opponent forward, and lean down on him to drive him into the ground. You loose your balance as they go down, and almost HAVE to kneel on them to keep it. If you tuck and close Kua wile placing your knee on their neck, you pin them. If you blow it, you go down hands first over them and have to go BJJ on em. Either way your set up to pin and or choke if you like. It's all good.

jon

10-02-2002, 05:25 PM

To everyone else im sorry please ignore this post.

Chingei
Look i was obviously hoping to leave this on SOME kind of good note but obviously you have mistaken this as an insult to your fragile over-inflated ego and that is no longer possible.
You have been called several times and not just by me for your know it all attitude and asked to back it up with some sort of valid argument. Instead you have choosen to simply continue with your childish insults and sarcastic undertones.

Obviously you now know darn well your stuck between a rock and hard place and your only recourse is to attempt (poorly i might add) to mudsling in the direction of your detractors. Its a commen tactic with those who feel they are above actualy having to varify the bs that they feel compelled to dish out.

This all started becouse YOU decided that something had been said that was impossible in your line of thinking. Now YOU cant prove that to be fact and your sitting there all red faced trying to get your confidence back by playing the internet tough guy.

You see chingei i dont really like to argue with people when i dont HAVE to, i find it often defeats what im trying to achive. That being said the plain truth is i LOVE to argue and love to fight - when its time. You have just succesfully managed to push my buttons a few to many times and if its an arguement you want then heck lets go at it!
We can pull out all the stops and hurl every insult we can possibly concieve, then when thats over we can start challenging each other to mortal combat from accross the globe.

Come on lets go...
I slept with your sister and your mum remarked that you where the result of a lot of alchol and a lack of finace for the pill! Your dad was way to busy reaming your brother to comment.
Your turn?

jon

10-02-2002, 05:27 PM

Merry
Thanks heaps for the defence, ill give it a whirl over the next few days if i can find someone to grapple a bit with. Many of the guys at my school dont really like grappling but a few do, one does bjj so with some luck...

Cheers for taking time :)

chingei

10-02-2002, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by jon
To everyone else im sorry please ignore this post.

Chingei
Look i was obviously hoping to leave this on SOME kind of good note but obviously you have mistaken this as an insult to your fragile over-inflated ego and that is no longer possible.
know it all attitude childish insults and sarcastic undertones.

mudsling in the direction of your detractors.
all red faced trying to get your confidence back by playing the internet tough guy.

i dont really like to argue with people when i dont HAVE to, i LOVE to argue and love to fight - when its time. You have just succesfully managed to push my buttons lets go at it!

hahahahahahhaahahhaahahahaha!

man, you are the monkey flinging feces at the bars of his cage!

entertaining as your emotional breakdown is, this thread has moved on and I, for one, am enjoying reading many excellent exchanges of views. So, try to unravel quietly. ok?

jon

10-02-2002, 07:36 PM

:rolleyes:
Yeah and errr did i mention your ugly as well?

Come on, unsubstantiated insults about people i know nothing about and will never meet are such fun.

Ahh well it was fun while it lasted... Back to the monkey cage to wait for another victim:p

chingei

10-02-2002, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
chingei
What's the core principal with your method? Is it not move the center back and lean on them??

The core principal of my mehtod is "move the center back and lean on them"

The only difference "I" see is the prefered details.

Maybe I'm not doing a good job of explianing my thoughts here, but it just seems to be such a no brainer that there should not be a dissagreement. Am I missing something?

not exactly.

Its not a matter of moving 'the center' out of the way as much as responding to movement by shifting the center (of gravity) onto the opponent and forcing leverage.

The difference in the amount of time required (to take one aspect) might be illustrated by imagining the time 'required' to move back when someone has pushed you vs. the amount of time required to recognize that someone is going to push you and to move yourself out of range before (or at the same time as) the push. which is more likely to occur? We won't even get into jumping over the guy's head while he's pushing you... :D

Nichiren

10-03-2002, 12:26 AM

I think its important to understand that most grapplers(atleast me and my training partners) think that counter a good executed shoot is very difficult. I usually try to sprawl but I estimate that I only succed about 20%. My best defense is to go on the offensive. But if the guy shoots I try with a sprawl, but because it is very difficult to succed with it I always have a alternative plan, I go down with controll rather than having the shooter dictate the the takedown.

If the sprawl fails and you fight to stay on your feet you will almost always go down with the shooter on top. When you feel that hes got your leg(do not give him both your legs) pull him down and put him in your guard, or try to get in a position for a submission during the takedown.

Just a couple of my thoughts on the subject... ;)

/Cheers

TkdWarrior

10-03-2002, 01:00 AM

this topic amazingly can not be proved untill tried in real...
having tried with wrestlers so many time...going into low stance helps u when u r sparring but if u r fighting in street u may be better chance
normally wrestler just doesn't goes to ur foot and take u down(if they do u just need to do football kick,it's down rite stupid)...they might do some manevours techs, cover the distance give some feints and then they'll try to shoot from closer distance...that is where u hav chance...hit him fast, hard...
one of WT training tapes i hav seen by Emin boztope's shows attacker goin to foot(i forgot the link) but that doesn't happen like that...
assuming wrestlers is close to u and shoots u(u r not in low stance) then wat u hav to do is to make sure one of ur foot goes good behind u and try not to get him hold ur waist(if's ur waist is in his command then most probably u r over) and from this position u need power, will and experience in fighting...
i m not sure about sprawl(wat is it?)...can't say
to me my weight factor helps me...i m around 80 kgs...

friday

10-03-2002, 10:37 AM

great just a rant
ive finally finished this assignment due yesterday its like 3:36 am now and i have to go into to uni to hand it in so it gets stamped yesterdays date :) lol
and guess what?? today i'm going to put on some gloves and defend against those crazy takedowns :(
sigh...wish me luck guys
i think i'm going to get my butt kicked

Royal Dragon

10-03-2002, 10:45 AM

Do what you said, only find some way to be in a position where your knee is crushing your opponenet wile you pound them, and your doing classic Chinese Ground fighting, so long as you pop up real fast to deal with the next attacker before he gets you.

Friday,
Good luck man, and remeber, don't let them get your center, and you will do fine :cool:

SevenStar

10-03-2002, 11:42 AM

as long as that front foot is there, it's open to be taken....now that I think about it, dropping into bow and arrow may leave you in the perfect set up for a fireman's - I'm gonna try that tonight.

friday

10-04-2002, 02:04 AM

bad luck today for me :(
the session got cancelled. have to wait another wk or so

friday

10-14-2002, 07:36 PM

hmmm...recently a tree branch from one of those hawaiian palm trees fell down and hit my friend's neck as she was bending over trying to get rid of the fallen branches in her backyard. luckily it hit something else first and it broke the fall. still she injured her neck and apparently moved it slightly out of place :(.

but i think i''ve been having one of those moments when something has become clearer or u get an idea from that incident.

i've also been struck on the back of the neck as i was going for a single leg on a praying mantis sifu. it didn't feel good. albeit i'm the crappiest single leg takedown guy ever.

is it feasible to train against that kinda takedown and developing full bore strikes to the neck area when BJJ guys or wrestlres attempt those single and double legs. i know its risky but aren't shoots risky too? against ppl with experience against shoots?
i was thinking if someone was to train consistently learning to strike or any other kinda tactics like the sprawl etc. that the success of the shoot will become kinda 50:50 or more favourable odds for the person being 'shooted'?i know like MP has said b4
that one moment or strike etc if fails an inexp groundfighter will pay for it once on the ground. but perhaps that one moment is the deciding moment for some styles and they are willing to train and take that chance. if i was to train hard and with BJJ ppl developing some sort of counter using my own styles i might improve the success rate of my response even tho' its not BJJ counters etc. hmmm
just some ideas

i have yet to meet again with my good friends so i'll have to elaborate on ,my succsess against the takedown another time.

chingei

10-14-2002, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by friday

i've also been struck on the back of the neck as i was going for a single leg on a praying mantis sifu. it didn't feel good. albeit i'm the crappiest single leg takedown guy ever.

is it feasible to train against that kinda takedown and developing full bore strikes to the neck area when BJJ guys or wrestlres attempt those single and double legs.

a good smack at the base of the skull can screw up one's vision for just a sec. but it seems that if you are waiting until the shot is happening, you've waited too long

SevenStar

10-14-2002, 08:43 PM

your timing has to be dead on. if I am clinched with you, I have some control over your arms - then I shoot in on you. you have to be able to do the strike from that position at the moment I let go and before I have you going backwards, because once you are, you just lost all the power in your strike. Try it out and see if you can make it work for you. If you can, keep training it.

omegapoint

10-16-2002, 02:02 AM

I don't agree witht the assessment that knees are not good weapons to use against a shooter. I have seen a low flying knee work against a Machado brother attempting to shoot on a kickboxer in a "Pride" match. The fight was over in seconds. A quick half-sprawl (one leg back furhter than the other) to a knee strike combo (to the top of the head) may be a possibility if the shooter isn't to close. Another option would be to immediately lower your center of gravity, even going to one knee, and delivering a downward elbow strike to the base of the skull. Works best if the shooter is diving in low, and you have room to begin a sprawl, "stiff-arming" the head with one arm, then controlling it and pushing it down as you deliver your elbow.

These techs are not as effective against someone who is grappling with you in close. In that case be ready to shift your weight and base if your opponent attempts to grab behind your knees. Having one or two arms underhooked will help you to control his ability to go low and get your legs. Don't forget headbutts and sweeps/trips/throws when in close. Getting low and stiffarming is a good idea for American Football runningbacks and for countering low takedowns. The trick is keeping a stable base.

Practicing your sprawl where you can pivot from a low, wide base using the shooter as a pivot point or get out of harms way and in an advantageous standing position, takes practice. Learning effective defensive and offensive moves for all combat ranges is good insurance. You never know what might happen next.

Merryprankster

10-16-2002, 02:19 AM

I don't agree witht the assessment that knees are not good weapons to use against a shooter. I have seen a low flying knee work against a Machado brother attempting to shoot on a kickboxer in a "Pride" match. The fight was over in seconds. A quick half-sprawl (one leg back furhter than the other) to a knee strike combo (to the top of the head) may be a possibility if the shooter isn't to close. Another option would be to immediately lower your center of gravity, even going to one knee, and delivering a downward elbow strike to the base of the skull. Works best if the shooter is diving in low, and you have room to begin a sprawl, "stiff-arming" the head with one arm, then controlling it and pushing it down as you deliver your elbow.

Omega, I think it's a question of WHEN. As you pointed out, success rate goes up when you protect your legs first. I mean, you can knee or flying knee, or elbow--but if you miss or if he's got a skull like Fujita? It can leave you in a pretty bad spot.

However, you address it--sprawl and fire away. There's a misconception that sprawling involves going all the way down with the opponent, but like everything else, it depends.

brothernumber9

10-16-2002, 11:23 AM

a sprawl with a crossface is a staple of shoot defenses, if the shooter is jammed long enough a ****zer works well to get free or in the least gain a little control and can very easily be turned into a choke or front chancellor if the shooter doesn't protect against it. the idea of kicking someone while they shoot in is not very realistic since normally people put most weight on the back foot they then have to shift weight to the front to kick, by that time the shooter is close enough to jam any real effect of a kick and the kicker has no where to go but down. all this assuming that the shooter is doing it intentionally and is experienced at doing it also an experienced shooter will almost always go for the fronand assuming that this is in a controlled (non jump-able) environment with a little space. otherwise some of these things won't matter at all.

brothernumber9

10-16-2002, 11:25 AM

the blocked out word was one of the following: ****zer, wizzer, wihzzer, (just trying to get one to show up)
lighten up on the censors

friday

10-16-2002, 04:24 PM

wats a chicken wing?
wat kind of injuries do u ppl get from BJJ, judo, wrestling training etc

Merryprankster

10-16-2002, 04:43 PM

Joint injuries galore. Sore ankles, popped rib cartilage, sprained knees, hyperextended elbows and constantly jammed fingers and toes.

A Chicken Wing in wrestling is this:

Have one person lay on the ground. Have that person put one arm behind their back, and bend it so the forearm is parallel to their own waist. Have the other person snake their arm underneath the bottom man's bicep, from the outside in, and work their own hand to the back of the bottom man's neck.

Single chicken wing in a nutshell.

SevenStar

10-16-2002, 04:54 PM

I'll find a pic of a chicken wing for ya - I know judoinfo has one somewhere.

grappling has plenty of injuries. just last night in bjj, one of my friends broke his toe. I caught a knee in the mouth. the most common unjuries are joint related in bjj because of the focus on submissions. sprains and broken bones can happen in judo, mainly from people falling improperly. what happens is people get scared of the impact and reach out to brace themselves instead of doing a proper breakfall. A guy in my class broke his collar bone doing that. knee injuries are also abound, as it's easy to sweep the knee in a throw where you should actually be sweeping above or below the knee. and let's not forget about the possibilties of cauliflower ear. all in all, I think there is more potential for injury in grappling than the sparring that most people do, as it's full contact and involves manipulation of joints.

SevenStar

10-16-2002, 05:21 PM

here's a single wing choke in judo:

http://home.astrakan.hig.se/tommy/judo/katamewaza/katahajime.html

friday

10-16-2002, 05:27 PM

Thanks MP and Sevenstar

with the BJJ chicken wing...and the top guy has his arm underneath the bottom guys bicep...does the top guy have his hand gripped on the bottom guy's wrist/forearm and keeps pushing it backwards? till the other guy taps out?
i think i've seen a clip of this done by Sakuraba on one of the Gracies in UFC or something.

i don't really see how anyone can get out of that...

Chang Style Novice

10-16-2002, 06:06 PM

It looks to me like both of the attacker's hands are easy enough to grab (although holding onto the gi will make 'em tough to budge.) The defender is at a mechanical disadvantage, sure, but it doesn't look totally hopeless to me, especially if the defender has a lot of upperbody strength.

SevenStar

10-16-2002, 07:11 PM

you're right CSN, but the move you are looking at is a choke. the attacker isn't cofusing on the arm, he's merely slipping his opponent's gi under his chin. If yhour chin is tucked well, then yes, you can fight out of it.

Friday, I think what you are envisioning is a kimura. I'll find a pic for ya.

SevenStar

10-16-2002, 07:14 PM

here we go. this can be done from several positions, not judt the one shown

http://bjj.org/techniques/aranha/kimura/

here's one closer to what you may have seen:

http://bjj.org/techniques/barra/kbelo/

Chang Style Novice

10-16-2002, 07:16 PM

Yeah, I got that it's a choke. Seems to me the attacker has to choose between immobilizing his own top arm by grabbing his own sleeve or pushing the defender's head forward, making it possible for the defender to move that arm with his own (not fully) trapped arm.

If the defender turns his head right (toward the attacker's elbow) will it take the gi pressure off the throat? Looks to me like it would. That's why I brought up the head control issue in the above paragraph.

Chang Style Novice

10-16-2002, 07:29 PM

No, wait! I mean, why not just jump over his back!:rolleyes: ;)

friday

10-16-2002, 08:07 PM

hey thanks Seven
yeah i was thinking of the kimura not the chicken wing...
so the chicken wing looks more like the cartoon picture u first posted then?

:)
i like the kimura and rolling as a defence against a tackle. it looks good.

SevenStar

10-16-2002, 11:10 PM

yeah, that's exactly right - turning the head in that direction will relieve the pressure. tuck your chin and with the free arm, grab his choking arm. between pulling on his choking arm and moving the rest of your body, you may be able to get enough space to get your head out.

Merryprankster

10-17-2002, 02:44 AM

What you aren't seeing in the rest of the picture is the immobilization of the defender's hips. This choke is typically accomplished from back mount in BJJ.

By immobilizing the lower body, you severely limit the ability of the defender to turn out. Grabbing the arms ain't gonna do nothing but buy you time, to turn your head and that's if you are lucky, unless you are FREAKISHLY strong.

Properly applied, this is primarily a blood choke. The hand under the neck and to the gi collar is pulling straight down, towards the defenders navel, NOT out and away from the body. The lever action created forces the forearm into the side of the neck, while the gi on the other side is pulled into the other side of the neck. The rear arm's purpose is to control the head. This is accomplished by grabbing your own bicep or gi, as in the picture, and levering your elbow down towards your hand that is on the gi collar (again, not OUT). By doing this, you isolate the neck completely removing the ability of the defender to use his head as an effective lever to create space.

If as in the picture, this choke is more or less sunk, and has a high success rate. Like any submission, the easiest defense is not to be there at all :D. However, seven has it right. Turn the head and tuck the chin, try not to panic as your vision tunnels to a pinpoint and you black out.

Seriously, fighting out of the position as pictured is going to be VERY hard. Tucking the chin is the first and most effective defense. And I will tell you right now that some very unusually strong individuals can choke you anyway--they pull your head so far back while your chin is tucked that you can't breathe (pull your head back but keep your chin tucked as you do it, and you'll see the difficulty.)

i like the kimura and rolling as a defence against a tackle. it looks good.

I don't think you're going to like the success rate of this at all. but perhaps I am not envisioning this correctly. Explain? :)