Is BJJ a one trick pony

[Liokault]

BJJ is more than just ground fighting right?

How much stand up do you do?

In tai chi we split stricking/grappling 50/50.

[apoweyn]

based on your reply in the 'bjj self defense' thread, your mind is already made up. so why ask?

[Ish]

Trying to pretend that BJJ is more than just ground fighting (which is the point of this thread) is fooling youir self.

you really must be fooling yourself now if you arguing for both sides

[Budokan]

Even though BJJ concentrates on ground fighting, I don't think it's fair to label the art as a 'one-trick pony'. There are many elements to the ground fighting itself that deny that.

[Liokault]

I am just tired of BJJ guys trying to run down anything thats not ground fighting!!

I fully accept that ground fighting is an important part of self defense training but it is not the be all and end all!! Also i stand by my statment that if ground fighting is all you can do (and if it is 90% of your training then that will be true) you are going to get hurt on the street.

I refer you to the thread i created when i saw a street fight.

The guy who in the end got beat up quite badly was doing ok till it went to the ground. Once on the ground he got beaten by the guy he was fightings friend almost imediatly. But variouse ground fighting exponents who frequent this site couldnt see that and stated that they could have handled it just fine standing up.

But is BJJ good at stand up? Is it as good as Kung Fu at stand up (i mean real kung fu not wushu dancing)?

And what is the point spending most of your training time doing somthing that is going to get you hurt?

Ok i accept that some fights will go to the ground but if you train to take every oponent to the ground then that is what you will do in a street fight ..... and get pounded by the guys friends.

My theory is that BJJ is a very good sport. A good sport desighned to take down and beat one oponent.....past this it looks kind of limited.

[CD Lee]

Just looking from the outside in, I would have a little bit of a problem dedicating myself to something that was 90% ground fighting. They have some really good stuff, but it is what it is. Useful yes. Actually more fun than stand up. I think they will be a LOT more skilled on the ground than in punching, and they say that on the street they seek to not go to the ground?

Your body under stress will do what it does. I think a BJJ guy might go for a quick takedown on the street by autopilot if the guys flowed into his techniques smoothly. Remember, on the street it happens very quickly and stressfuly, much much more so than in sparring or even a NHB type event. That is why your reactions are just that. No time to think a lot about your techniques. It needs to flow to work, and your body flows into what it knows naturally.

[Chang Style Novice]

If the bjj guy can take down his streetfight attacker without going to the pavement himself, I don't see any problem. As far as I can tell, once you've taken a guy down without falling on top of him, that fight is over, for all intents and purposes. Time to skedaddle!

[DragonzRage]

"I am just tired of BJJ guys trying to run down anything thats not ground fighting!!"

You're living in the past bro. Maybe that's the way a lot of fools who bought into Rorion Gracie's propaganda felt back when bjj was first becoming popular, but it definitely ain't the case anymore. Any serious bjj fighter nowadays knows that if he wants to be any good, then he's gonna have to be well rounded.

In modern MMA competition a guy who is competent only in bjj will have a lot of trouble. Wrestlers are a pain in the a$$ because they are more powerful and explosive grapplers. A pure bjj guy isn't going to have much of a chance to acquire or maintain dominant position against the wrestler, and so more often then not, the bjj guys end up on their backs working the guard. The problem is that wrestlers have learned how to pass the guard pretty effectively and defend against submissions. A powerful striker with good grappling knowledge and ground defense will also be a world of trouble for a bjj fighter.

Bjj is still an integral component in the MMA world, but it has been shown that bjj must adapt and compensate for its weaknesses just like any other style. At the end of the day, the purist is the man who's gonna lose, no matter what style he is.

[Ray Pina]

I played with a JJ guy this weekend actually (not BJJ).

At first I thought he was a Tai Boxer because he was taking a similiar hand position (trap). He dared me to attack thinking I must have been a kook but I've seen the trap before. When I struck his forearm he committed both arms to trying to wrestle that hand. The firtst time I got a free hit.

When he wanted to "show" me what he would do he grabbed my right arm with both hands and began to twist. Not bad, but if one knows ba gua peach palm they pressure came right off the arm. Meanwhile he tottaly discounted my left.

Over and over he committed to "getting me", but all the while he had no control. I could have beaten silly with the left, freeing the right for a follow up and so on.

It was fun. I can't judge JJ by this guy though because frankly I don't think he's that good, but supposedly he's a pretty good street fighter -- but isn't everybody. :)

I still haven't the pleasure of mixing it up heavy with a BJJ. This JJ guy never tried to shoot. But his hands were better then I expected for not having "sticky" hands. He was able to redirect and cling to my striking arm, but couldn't strike at the same time. And he needed two to handle one.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I was at a Rickson Gracie seminar a few months ago. As we all gathered together to listen to him speak he asked us for some audience participation.

"How many of you are a black belt in another art? Please stand up."

More than 3/4 of the class stood up and we each fired off our prior style.

"Well I guess that ruins the myth that jiu-jitsu (brazillian) guys can't fight with their hands and feet!"

I've never attended a bjj class that didn't train at least 2 self defense techniques and 2 takedowns per class.


JJ and BJJ are nothing alike.

[Former castleva]

I´ve had all the same idea that you do,Liokault.
BUT I´ve been told they emphasize tons of other stuff too,even weapon defenses...
Still it seems though,that ground crumbling is the main thing,or maybe it is just always thrown against one´s face when it comes to that art.
:)

[Merryprankster]

On the other hand Liokault, if our pounded fellow knew some BJJ, he might have been able to get up faster and not get pounded.

And if he DID know BJJ then he was just stupid in a self-defense situation, which transcends stylistic boundaries.

[Liokault]

May be he could have gotten up faster if he had some BJJ but as he was taken out in the first second of going down it would not have made much differance.

Anyway you are missing my point.....What if he didnt want to go down would BJJ have to offer him and how much training for stand up would he have done?

[Merryprankster]

That first second changes a lot with a little knowledge. You know that.

Secondly, BJJ can teach you how to stay on your feet. Depends on the instructor. Most of my classmates can't handle my prior wrestling experience on the feet, but they are able to handle each other--and manhandle newbies. The guys with Judo and wrestling experience are typically much harder to train against, standing.

But mostly, it's a groundfighting system *shrug*. Sometimes that's a good thing... sometimes, it's not. It's all situationally dependent.

[old jong]

'' But mostly, it's a groundfighting system *shrug*. Sometimes that's a good thing... sometimes, it's not. It's all situationally dependent. ''
Logic like that and knowing our limits can save lifes as much and sometimes more than a few fast learned self-defense tricks.
The key is to use your tools ,not the other guy's. Nothing can prevent or beat everything.(IMHO)
;)

[LEGEND]

BJJ has a tool that will help in any street fight. It is a SPECIALIZE discipline however...it's GROUND FIGHTING with wrestling and judo type takedowns! Many BJJ guys CROSSTRAIN...those that do not or claim that it's the BEST OF THE BEST...everyone HERE should laugh at them! Many BJJ skools advocate BOXING or THAI BOXING as part of their program! I find SAN SHOU as hella realistic for REAL FIGHTING. Either way any martial artists should have a stragedy for dealing with multiple attackers and one on one scenarios! There should be a PLAN after u learn some of the tools...I think most MARTIAL ARTIST have NO STRAGEDY when it comes to real fighting...no what if???

[Braden]

EvolutionFist - Hey man. Whaddya mean by the peach palm? Monkey holding peaches?

[SevenStar]

"I am just tired of BJJ guys trying to run down anything thats not ground fighting!!"

1. Why do you let it bother you?

2. Why do you generalize it as all of them?

3. Most BJJ guys crosstrain and realize the value a good ground game can have. That's why most of them crosstrain now.

4. your grappling is stand up, like chin na, no? so if you do go to the ground, what do you know that will help you get up efficiently?

5. alot of BJJ incorporates judo throws, which helps in the clinch, and there has been a clinch involved in almost every fight I've seen. so in that sense, yes, there is stand up.

6. BJJ is designed to work when you are surprised or in a seemingly disadvantaged position

7. there is no need to pull punches as there is in striking. if I throw you, you're thrown. if I choke you, you are unconscious. That alone adds that realism that you can't quite get from learning eye gouges and dim mak.

8. by knowing how to go to the ground, you also know how to stay standing.

9. by knowing what to do on the ground, you know how to get up.

[TaoBoy]

The majority of the BJJ schools around me - including the one I attend - offer a stand-up style as well as BJJ. At my school it's shootfighting, others offer Muay Thai or boxing or kick-boxing etc.

[future man]

This point has already been made in one form or another by previous posters, but I'm going to make it again as it seems that it has yet to register with many of those out there yelling about the limitations of BJJ.

All styles have their limitations. There is no ONE perfect, all around, appropriate in every situation, end all - be all, superior martial art. (If you know of one, please tell me, I'd like to check it out).

Most BJJ players understand this too. That's why it is so common to see them cross-training in a stand-up style like Muay Thai, JKD, Boxing, etc.

Everyone thinks their style is the best, or at least better than the next guys'. Its almost like a discussion on religion.

[Braden]

Reflecting upon the above, what has often struck me as unfortunate is how a large proportion of people equate, in their arguments, BJJ as meaning BJJ + anything else (muay thai, etc), whereas kungfu (or other "traditional" arts) mean only kungfu.

Eg. "BJJ has standup, it's called Muay Thai, that's why it's a well-rounded art. Kungfu doesn't have groundfighting through, that's why it's incomplete."

I know none of you mean this now, but it's a stance implicitly taken quite often.

[future man]

Agreed. Let's compare apples with apples.

I'd like to pose a related question, if I may...

Once someone has attained a sufficient level of depth and competency in an art, is there a problem with seeking out training in another art which might address some of the perceived limitations of their core art?

[Chang Style Novice]

I'd have to say "no" John.

[Braden]

No problem. It doesn't even have to address limitations.

[dre]

Yes, but their trick is winning.

[Knifefighter]

Yes, BJJ is a "one trick pony" in the respect that it specializes in groundfighting. If you want to be proficient on the ground, there is no better system. A style that specializes in a certain area (boxing with punching, Muay Thai with knees and elbows in the clinch, wrestling with takedowns, Kali with knives) will be the best bet in the area that it specializes in.

Styles that claim to train in all areas are jacks of all trades, but masters of none.

[Liokault]

Yes, but their trick is winning.


Yes i agree they do very well in sport fighting type events.

[SevenStar]

so you don't believe any bjj guy would do well in the street? when they grapple and throw on a regular basis. but your eye gouges, spine rupturing and anything else you do NOT do at full speed and resistance on a regular basis will?

Here's the bottom line: Anybody can beat anybody on any given day. I don't waste time downing a style, because it's not the style that's gonna hurt me - it's the person using it. Also, I can say "Oh he knows bjj, and bjj only does ground fighting." BUT you aren't fighting bjj itself - you are fightng a guy that trains bjj. meaning he may have (and most likely is or has) other martial arts training. filling your head with ideas like "bjj is good for sport fighting" will get you hurt when you fight someone and have that notion, because you really have no idea what he knows.

Got it?

[Ray Pina]

1) Peach Palm is hard to explain but it works. There are different ;levels to it. First, giving at the elbow to absorb. Later, giving at the elbow while strikeng at the same time. ... too technical to get across over the net.

2)I agree that no art is perfect. He|l no! Things must evolve and get better. But I am adamant that certain styles are better then others for combat.

3) Though not a BJJ guy I'm quite sure they'll do more then well on the street (****, I got to mix it up with one of these guys).

4) As far as it's working in sport: not really anymore. People are taking their training more seriously now. In the late 80s/ early 90s when karate guys were doing forms and BJJ were slamming each other, they had a huge advatage: they practiced what they preached.

5) In the end, it's you, an individual, and the amount of time and dedication you put into your training vs. the other guy. Find what you like and devote yourself to it.

Peace

[Braden]

Ah... I think you're describing what we call folding. Good stuff.

[Liokault]

so you don't believe any bjj guy would do well in the street? when they grapple and throw on a regular basis. but your eye gouges, spine rupturing and anything else you do NOT do at full speed and resistance on a regular basis will?


Well i dont know about other tai chi guys but almost every thing i do while i train is against resisting oposition ...all of whom would only love to put me on my back/breack my nose/chock me out/breack my elbow

dont know about spine rupturing though!!!!

[SevenStar]

I plan on learining spine rupturing after I can do a chi blast. then I will rupture spines with the chi blast. :D

kudos if you are working on a resisting opponent. what kind of training do you do in the event that you do get taken down?

[Liokault]

The chi blast thing is ment to be ironic.......as im a tai chi guy who does not belive in chi.


the extent of our ground work is.


When sparring and we go to the ground we carry on till some one is obviously about to get pounded or we reach a stalemate.

Also we have several ex judo guys who we ground fight with.....was hard at first but once you get used to not letting them get arm bars its quite easy.

[LEGEND]

How unusual???? Well not many BJJ skools in ENGLAND...so can't really invite u to try it.

[Liokault]

Funnily enough there are very few BJJ schools in the UK.

I have been looking for one to try out and i think the nearest one to me is in coventry.

coventry BJJ/valle tudo (http://sfuk.tripod.com/clubs/coventrybjjvt.html)

What do you think?

[Liokault]

GRRRR kept meaning to go try this place out but now i see its closed........means my next most conveniant club is in london ......and thats a huge hastle!!!


How unusual???? Well not many BJJ skools in ENGLAND...so can't really invite u to try it.

Legend...are you not reading? Or did you miss my whole point?

[SevenStar]

different peeps have different interpretations of what chi is. what's yours?

[SevenStar]

how far from you is coventry? and what is £10 in US? It sounds like it may be a pretty good place.

[Liokault]

coventry is about 50 mins

london is about 50 mins

differance is i can park in coventry easy......parking in london (and driveing) is a nightmare.

10 pounds is 15 dollars


or 15 dollers is 7 guines 6s 4d and a shilling guv.


sounds cheap but remember it was a university club and so had to be non profit i belive.

[Liokault]

different peeps have different interpretations of what chi is. what's yours?


Ok this is a whole other thread but i do belive in Chi...only i prefre to call it a cardio vascular system.....

[Ray Pina]

ATTN BRADEN:

Nope, it's not folding. The elbow stays down and travels along the same plain.

I used to WC fold a lot. But I found it puts my elbow in a vulnerable position against a skilled guy -- it can get flipped.

This is where the internet sucks. It would take too much effort to describe peach palm with words. Also, I believe my master's usage must remain with the school.

If you're ever in NYC though I would love to have a MA exchange of ideas with you. You seem quite reasonable and open.

Best to you with your training. Keep real WC alive. CMA needs a wake up call.

Ray

[Braden]

Still sounds like folding to me, just making sure to fold by yielding rather than by raising and jamming and therefore messing up the integrity of your elbow position.

BTW, I do bagua, not WC, and it's all a trick - I'm very closed-mind and unreasonable. :p

Take care, and best with your studies too.