Cleveland WC

[Odie-wan]

I am looking at switching to WC and have been getting all the opinions that I can about the two schools here. What I'm interested in knowing is

1) What are the differences between what Buddy Wu (Ho Kam Ming student) teaches and what Carl Dechiara's (Leung Sheng/Kenneth Chung) schools teach, and

2) Where does the apparent animosity come from that makes Dechiara's students blast Master Wu?

Thanks in advance,
Sean

[Atleastimnotyou]

Sean,
Go and visit each school and see the differences in person. Touch buddy's hands and Carl's. See what you like the best.
I wasn't aware that there was "animosity" between us.

[old jong]

Hi Odie-Wan
I think you should watch a few classes in each places if you can before making a choice.Both are serious and good lineage and can bring you to a hight level but the road to this level can be a lot different.Touching hands if you are not experimented in Wing Chun is useless because anybody will be able to punch you at will in any of those schools.Look instead for the approach you feel will fit you the best.Do you like some contact?...Do you prefer a more internal approach?...

[Odie-wan]

AtLeastImNotYou & Old Jong,

As I read more of the old threads, I see that most of the negative comments about Buddy Wu come from R5A. I can dicount one person's opinion. Sorry if he misrepresented the rest of you.

I will definitely try to go to both schools and talk to the instructors. I have been interested in Wing Chun since I was a young man but it seemed that I was stationed somewhere without a WC school or I was continuing studies from the last duty station. I come from a predominantly Kenpo background (current) with some forays into Aikido and Shootfighting.

Part of my focus is always on application so I would have some misgivings about an approach that is TOO internal. From Aikido studies though I believe in the power from projected ki/chi, so internal training has some value with me.

What is the difference in their approaches

[gnugear]

Carl is very precise and spends a lot of time on positioning, structure, and whole body unity. The pace is slower (you're not going to learn the whole system in a year), but is well worth it. I would guess that Carl/Ken's system has more of an internal emphasis, but I know nothing about Buddy Wu, so keep that in mind.

JMHO

[old jong]

Like you say so well!...''It's not the art,it's the artist'' ...R5A has his definitive opinions about all that is not from his lineage but that does'nt makes his lineage bad!
Just take your times to choose so you will find the best for you. :)

[yuanfen]

This business of touching hands is somewhat humorous.
It takes knowledge to understand what you have touched
and what the tiucher intended to convey to the touchee, if anything.
Even in his prime Ali had soft hands- but there be thunder there..
Read, listen, talk, visit- then make up your own mind.I have nothing but respect for Kenneth C and most of his students.
And, if someone has made snide remarks about Wu- shame on their ignorance.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by yuanfen
This business of touching hands is somewhat humorous.
It takes knowledge to understand what you have touched
and what the tiucher intended to convey to the touchee, if anything.


I wasnt talking about doing chi sau or anything. but sean has had martial arts experience so he will be able to know if what he is being told and shown is the real deal. he will also be able to tell if there is skill there. etc.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Odie-wan
I am looking at switching to WC and have been getting all the opinions that I can about the two schools here. What I'm interested in knowing is

1) What are the differences between what Buddy Wu (Ho Kam Ming student) teaches and what Carl Dechiara's (Leung Sheng/Kenneth Chung) schools teach, and

2) Where does the apparent animosity come from that makes Dechiara's students blast Master Wu?

Thanks in advance,
Sean
Hi Sean,

I think you're in a win-win situation for choosing. But, coming from Carl's lineage (he's my Si Sook--my teacher's "younger brother"), I hope you choose Carl. What Ken Chung tries to convey in his lineage is precision and positioning, sensitivity, and a strong horse. Plus, someday you may get to meet and train with me. :)

But if you choose Buddy Wu, as Joy endorses him, I'm sure you'll be in good hands. I'm not knowledgable enough to differentiate Ho Kam Ming's differences or emphases at this time, but his lineage is strong, as exemplified by Augustine Fong and Joy Chaudhuri. My experiences of three students who have come from Augustine's line is that they were already very good when they moved and enrolled in my teacher's school, and they have continued to improve while continuing to hold their former lineage and teachers in high esteem.

While some have been critical of other lineages, take it with a grain of salt. Visit the schools in question and try to decide which teaching style seems to fit you best. There is likely room for both schools in Cleveland.

Good luck in your training.

Regards,

[kj]

Originally posted by yuanfen
This business of touching hands is somewhat humorous.
It takes knowledge to understand what you have touched
and what the tiucher intended to convey to the touchee, if anything.
Even in his prime Ali had soft hands- but there be thunder there..
Read, listen, talk, visit- then make up your own mind.I have nothing but respect for Kenneth C and most of his students.
And, if someone has made snide remarks about Wu- shame on their ignorance.

Agreed, Joy. As for the value of touching someone's hands. Somewhere along the way I realized that pretty much everyone could beat me up, so that wasn't good enough criteria for evaluating one approach over another, LOL. My lot seemed to improve substantially when I refocused my examinations on whether or not I could realistically expect to develop the kinds of skills they were trying to impart (even if not to same degree ... but who knows ;) ).

Odie-wan, I too don't know the particulars of how Buddy teaches, and agree with the suggestions thus far to assess and compare for yourself. FWIW, an old friend and former training partner hooked up with Buddy Wu some time back. Haven't heard from him in quite awhile now, but last reports were that he was very happy with in Buddy's school and with his training there.

While I've never participated in Carl's regular classes, I do know something of his overall approach, as we learn from the same teacher, and I've met many of his students. I believe that his emphasis on strong foundation and skill building is sound and a service to those who choose to learn from him. Carl is also able to effectively demonstrate why we practice as we do, and I'm sure he would do his best to satisfy your interest in that regard along with an overview of the "basics." A number of Carl's students engage in frequent sparring, perhaps even earlier relative to others in our lineage; so you might inquire about that too if it happens to interest to you. Of course there are lots of other avenues to explore with both Carl and Buddy, depending on your interests, goals, and concerns.

I have not yet seen any single technical approach, teacher, school or "culture" that seems to suit everyone's values and predilections. Sadly, not even ours. Much as I love and value what and how we are taught and practice, I believe it is most important for each and every one to feel they've made the best choice for themselves.

So .... best wishes in your search. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Odie-wan]

Thanks to all who have offered some guidance. I appreciate you taking the time. I'll spend some time with each school before deciding. About a month ago I decided to take off the rest of the year from my Kenpo studies to let a low back sprain heal. Kicks are the biggest culprit. I think that in the long term, WC will be a better choice for someone with a history of back problems, no?

[red5angel]

Odie-wan, never met Buddy Wu, never made any specific comments about the guy, although I have a feeling what Carl teaches is much more sound ;) By all means though, go to each school and see for yourself.

[Odie-wan]

Young and impetuous. Filled with anger, he is. The dark side is seductive.

[red5angel]

Odie-Wan, check your pm.

[Phil Redmond]

email
vmunguia@yahoo.com
He teaches TWC and lives in Cleveland.

[Odie-wan]

Sifu Redmond - Is TWC Temple WC or Traditional or ?? Just clueless I guess. Also, I sent you an email asking for the Cleveland contact's name. I'd like to send him/her an email but I would like to know how to address it. Thank you.

Sean

[gnugear]

Originally posted by Odie-wan
Thanks to all who have offered some guidance. I appreciate you taking the time. I'll spend some time with each school before deciding. About a month ago I decided to take off the rest of the year from my Kenpo studies to let a low back sprain heal. Kicks are the biggest culprit. I think that in the long term, WC will be a better choice for someone with a history of back problems, no?

I had back surgery so I pretty much had to drop my other MA training. Wing Chun has been great. The stance really helps expand my herniated disk, and has actually improved my situation. I would highly reccomend it if you've had back problems.

[Phil Redmond]

Sean,
It's Traditional Wing Chun. The guys name is Vladimir Munguia.
I taught at Yale University from 1989 to 1984. Vlad was a student of mine there and contiued training in WC after he graduated. He stayed and trained with me in New Haven CT for a few years and recently moved back to Cleveland. If your were refering to the Temple Wing Chun site they are also Traditional Wing Chun.
I hope this helps

[asn3]

odie-wan,

Just to throw my 2 cents in here...

My guess would be that not many posters here have had firsthand experience w/ both buddy and carl (myself included--my experience is w/ the former), so it would be difficult for someone to outline the differences in approach, training, etc. that you seem to be looking for. And perhaps more importantly, you're fairly unlikely to get an objective opinion, as you've probably noticed.

As many have suggested, check out both places. Good luck.

oh, and kj,

Just wondering if your friend is still training wing chun..I may know him..what's his name? first name is fine.

[Odie-wan]

I think that the absense of people who have trained with both people is an indorsement for both. i.e. No one has started with one, jumped ship and gone to the other.

An application of the Zen principle of utility in nothingness?

[Odie-wan]

I spent some time touching hands with Carl D last night. As advertised, he is extremely detail oriented. As far as the value of someone who is not from a WC system touching hands, I'd say that it definitely had value for me. Carl could tell at the slightest touch where my energy was focused, what was on my mind and EXACTLY where my balance was. I was honestly amazed. I know that I'd learn a lot from him but I'm withholding judgement until I check out the other schools. Buddy Wu moved his school and I haven't figured out where yet. Joy - Do you have an address for his Cleveland school?

[red5angel]

Odie-Wan, glad to hear you had a good experience. Check your PM, I want to get some more details from you if you dont mind....

[kj]

Originally posted by asn3
oh, and kj,

Just wondering if your friend is still training wing chun..I may know him..what's his name? first name is fine.

Oops ... sorry asn3. I seem to be missing a lot of posts lately for some reason.

His name is "Chuck." He is a veterinarian. If you do happen to know him, tell him I said "hi" and scold him just a little for staying out of touch too long. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

P.S. Yes, we are all biased. FWIW, I admire sincere efforts at objectivity and think we all do well to strive for it. At the same time it is wise to be skeptical of any who claim exemption from subjective influence or personal preference. Even Spock had his quirks. IMHO of course. ;)

[Chum Kil]

Odie-wan wrote: "Carl could tell at the slightest touch where my energy was focused, what was on my mind and EXACTLY where my balance was. I was honestly amazed."

I believe every Sifu can do this. Hey, my Tang Soo Do instructor could do this without even touching hands. This should not be that amazing if the person has been training long enough.

[old jong]

Everytimes I touch hands with a beginner,I can do all of this!...It is not a big deal.
If you see a hard punch coming at you,is it so important?...
I don't say that Carl is no good or anything like that but if you want to make a choice,try not to base yourself on things like that.There is more to see in a school.
Depends on your goals.

[black and blue]

True Story:

My Sifu has been known to neutralise attacks in Chi Sau the second they start. When asked how he knew they were coming, he said: "I could feel the tension start in your back."

Completely Made Up Story:

My Sifu can also beat up all of your Sifus... at once... with two arms tied behind his legs... with only his nose as a weapon. And while he does it he tells jokes! :p

[red5angel]

Old Jong, I think you would be shocked to find out to what degree Carl and even his senior students can do these things. Their level of sensitivity is way beyond anything I have come across so far. while anyone can touch someones hands and tell which way there pushing, not many people can get an accurate idea of where someone who isnt pushing is still sending his energy.
But you are correct in saying there is more. Carls class has a lot of energy, he keeps it moving and his students are enthusiastic and helpful. It was an energizing experience for me and I think it is for his local students every time they go.
What I personally was most impressed by was some of the more senior students. While I unfortunately did not get to meet AtleastImnotYou I met a few of his other senior students and was impressed by their level of skill which I would say was higher then about 99% of the instructors I have visited, and they themselves still have a long way to go to catch up with Carl.
Whats cool about all this is that they dont do anything other then the basics. No secret techniques, no weight lifting or strength building, just the most basic of wingchun drills and excersises.
Black and Blue, if you are training with this guy why cant you do that? Isnt that what sensitivity training is for?

[black and blue]

Red5Angel,

I've been training for a year and a half - doing Chi Sau for four months or so. My Sifu has been training for 17 years or there abouts.

So he's better than I am, more open and responsive to energy, placement, sensitivity, using what I give him. His skill makes the head spin. ;)

But I WILL get there. A question of time and effort... and, dare I say it... Intent!

:)

[old jong]

Please Red5Angel!
I'm not insulting your church here!...I mentionned I did not say he was no good!...I know he's good,we all know,thanks to you how good he is and even more!...This is getting ridiculous.what is that?...A cult or something?....
I could take the bite and start talking about how good are my Sifu and Sigung and how bigger is my dad from your's but,we all passed that age,no?...;)

BTW,at my age, the only things that shock me are groupies.:rolleyes:

[Odie-wan]

Old Jong,
That's exactly why I'm not going to decide anything until I visit everyone. It drives my wife nuts because that's how I shop too. I just tell her that it's an engineer thing...She wouldn't understand.

[old jong]

Good luck in your ''shopping'' ;)

[yuanfen]

Buddy Wu moved his school and I haven't figured out where yet. Joy - Do you have an address for his Cleveland school?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Odie Wan
I thought I sawa post by one of his students here awhile back..
maybe he/she will see and inform. Buddy Wu has never been big on advertising but he is simply good and worth looking for.
I hada phone number once but dont know where it is. I know that he is active and around.There is
a well known CMA non wing chun guy named Johnny Wu(no relative) in Cleveland who would know where Buddy Wu is teaching.
In kung fu IMO searching for a good teacher is itself part of the kung fu journey-. Its your call how much to search, check, read, reflect and choose. Years ago, before I picked a style and a teacher I did big time homework before settling ona course of action.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Old jong,
Jason wasnt trying to make everyone believe ours is the best or anything. he is just very excited at what he has come across. and as we all know, when someone gets very excited about something, they want to talk about it as much as they can.

mmmm... groupies...

[old jong]

Exited is to say the least an understatement!...Hypercompulsive would fit more in this case!...;)

[yuanfen]

Completely Made Up Story:

My Sifu can also beat up all of your Sifus... at once... with two arms tied behind his legs... with only his nose as a weapon. And while he does it he tells jokes!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Really?He must be one big joke<g>
Is his nose fairly flattened out?

[red5angel]

Old Jong, no offense taken, none meant. Like Atleastimnotyou said I am just very excited to be doing what I am doing and learning it the way I am learning it.
My only point was that EVERY ones sife/instructor makes those claims and in my experience most of it is not untrue but because most people have never come across some seriously deep skills, they wouldn't know the difference. Its not a statement meant specifically for you OJ, just what I have experienced so far in my search for good wingchun. Of course I am ONLY 29 and have ONLY visited 16 schools or so. ;)

[old jong]

Good for you if you are happy and satisfied at your school.
But it is pointless to talk so much about someone's skill in Wing Chun as it is impossible for most to feel and compare that skill to anything. I have felt Augustine Fong's hands.I could start talking endlessly about his sensitivity and everything else but some would say...''Bah! that's his sigung,it is normal he talks like that!...He does'nt know better.He should see this one or this one...'' You get the idea?...Wing Chun is the martial art version of ''Family Feud'' and I wonder if that will change someday!...
Wing Chun is a martial art designed to fight but we always fight with words and intellectual or even worse, esoteric concepts!...Maybe we should do like some others do and fight to see who is right once and for all.

[red5angel]

Old Jong, I think you missed the point. how would you know if Fong has real sensitivity if he is the only person whoes hands you touched? how would you know what real skill is if you had never touched the hands of someone with real skil?
I am constantly saying people need to get out there and experience what other people have, see if they can find someone better. I wished Odie-Wan luck on his search, I hope he finds something he is comfortable with. For me, I wouldnt be comfortable knowing there is someone out there better I could be learning from. I did the footwork, and found what I was looking for. Sounds like Odie Wan is doing that as well.
I personally could care less whether all the wingchun lineages get along, my training time is not about making friends, its about getting better at what I do. If what I do is better then what you do, why should it bother me? The whole lineage argument is crap from my point of view. Even if you learnt from the man himself how to do it the most precise way, if you let your ego get in the way, or you dont listen and train smartly, its wasted and you wont have what is past down to you. You wont ever see me argue about lineage because its baseless and worthless. The only thing that counts is what you are learning right now.

[old jong]

Originally posted by red5angel
Old Jong, I think you missed the point. how would you know if Fong has real sensitivity if he is the only person whoes hands you touched? how would you know what real skill is if you had never touched the hands of someone with real skil?


What could I answer to that?....I know but I think it would be useless!....So I won't.

[red5angel]

Old jong, its a forum, say what you want to say, believe it or not I am listening. utlimately does it really matter if we disagree?

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by red5angel
For me, I wouldnt be comfortable knowing there is someone out there better I could be learning from

Even on principle, you can't honestly believe that statement.

[[Censored]]

Red, of those 16 schools you've visited, how many of the instructors could you defeat?

[red5angel]

Burnsypoo, why not? Why wouldnt you be looking to learn from the best?

Censored, wheres the relevance?

[asn3]

Odie-wan,

I can help you out w/ contacting Buddy Wu. Check your pm.

[yuanfen]

Thanks asn3. Greetings to Sifu Wu
Joy Chaudhuri/Tempe, Arizona

[yuanfen]

Looks like the wallahbarf season is here again. Presumptuous to assume who has "touched" whose hands and what that means.

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by red5angel
Burnsypoo, why not? Why wouldnt you be looking to learn from the best?


Wrong question to be asking, "the best" is meaningless. What if the 17th school (you've visited 16 now, right?) is the one that's "better" than your present "best". (this is rhetorical, take a breath :) )

Even in principle, you should understand that there's "always someone better".

[red5angel]

Right BP, and why wouldnt you always be looking for something better? If you are constantly getting better yourself wouldnt you probably at some point surpass who you are learning from? Then what?

[asn3]

yuanfen,

will relay the greeting...thanks.


oh, and kj,

is your friend studying currently? your friend could be before my time...or i'm having one of those moments...

[kj]

Originally posted by asn3
oh, and kj,

is your friend studying currently? your friend could be before my time...or i'm having one of those moments...

Status unknown. I don't think I've heard from him in 2-3 years, maybe longer. Time flies. He hooked up with Buddy's school some time before that, maybe as many as 5 years ago. He could be long relocated for all I know. Even if he's still around, don't feel bad; I have a lot of those kinds of moments. :(

Regards,
- kj

[[Censored]]

Censored, wheres the relevance?

Well, if you walked out of 16 schools, not because you could beat ANY of them with your Wing Chun, but because you didn't like the way they TALKED about Wing Chun, then that supports the theory that Red is an effete, elitist intellectual. Don't you think? ;)

[aelward]

I noticed no one actually talked much about Buddy Wu's school; but one of the people I often train with is one of his students. He has very sound fundamentals, can articulate the knowledge, and doesn't constantly blow his horn about how great he, his Sifu, or Si-gung are.

If this guy is a good representative of what Buddy Wu's school is like, then I would have to say it is worth checking out!

[bloodgod]

Buddy wu is a gentleman and has generated many champion students. They have won form and chi sao compitition year after year after year. Buddy wu learned from Ho kam ming, who taught augustine fong. Buddy wu is a grandstudent of Ipman. The closer you get to the source the less watering down you get,imo. Carl is Ipmans greatgrandstudent so i personaly , as long as the chronological skill was backed up, would want to be as high up lineage wise. There is a differance in attitude between Buddy wu and Carl. Buddy wu is substatialy older and offers a more mature personality. Carl on the other hand has more energy and would be more apt to play ruff with you if you were so inclined which is nice,imo. Everyone has good points and bad points. You would be lucky to learn from either of them in my opinion

[Zhuge Liang]

Someone should lock this thread before it is too late...

Zhuge Liang

[red5angel]

Censored - again, a good honest try but you are going to have to try harder. But I will toss you a bone here, you need it, Ever touched someones hands and known they were good?
Bloodgod, very true, Carl can turn up the heat to test your ability if that is what you want. This personally suits me well as it shows me where my limits are.

[yuanfen]

Aelward sez:
Buddy Wu's Student
I noticed no one actually talked much about Buddy Wu's school; but one of the people I often train with is one of his students. He has very sound fundamentals, can articulate the knowledge, and doesn't constantly blow his horn about how great he, his Sifu, or Si-gung are.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aelward- still waters run deep.

[[Censored]]

LOL, you call that mouthboxing? Too much spiraling energy went to your head, I think. ;)

Did you touch hands with 16 inferior teachers? You must have, because you left their schools, because you knew they were not good. Yet apparently you could not beat any of them. Where does that leave you then?

Have you ever in your lifetime touched hands, and been mistaken? Have any clever hands lied to you? Have any empty hands passed by you? Tell us about it.

[asn3]

aelward,

the guy i believe you're referring to is a sihing of mine, a nice guy, and of course, we know him quite well (been on the receiving end of his techniques on many an occasion). nice to hear that he's still doing his thing. we actually thought we might see him a couple of weekends ago, but his schedule didn't permit..do you train w/ him often?

[Patrick Gordon]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aelward
[B]I noticed no one actually talked much about Buddy Wu's school; but one of the people I often train with is one of his students. He has very sound fundamentals, can articulate the knowledge, and doesn't constantly blow his horn about how great he, his Sifu, or Si-gung are.


From Oakland? Sounds like that might be Deeje? If so, say Patrick Gordon from Ottawa says hello. I was with his sifu a week and a half ago in Toronto. He was up to see his sifu, Ho Kam Ming for his birthday. Sifu Wu is as nice as he is skilled...very good.

Patrick Gordon.

[reneritchie]

red5angle - why aren't you studying with Ken Chung sifu directly?

Patrick - what's up!

RR

[red5angel]

RR - Personally I think Carls style of teaching suits me personally. his ability to transfer information is pretty high and he has a lot of patience, is constantly paying attention to detail. No matter how many times you screwed something up, if you show an honest desire to learn he keeps on you. It would be nice to visit Kens class and I may head out to the summer camp this next year if it happens.

Censored - ;)

[old jong]

You don't mind if Ken has better hands than Carl?....You always said that you would always look for the best!;)

[reneritchie]

OJ - Aye, there's the rub.

r5a - cool.

As to the overall philosophy, what if there's the "best WCK ultra-master in the Multi-verse" living right next door to you but s/he's a complete and utter scumbag the mere of spending 2 minutes with makes you dry-heave? It's all subjective.

(That's not to say I don't admire people who move cross country or travel frequently to study with whomever best floats their boat, just that many, many factors contribute to who you are with and why).

RR

[old jong]

Good question Rene! ...Maybe if he takes a bath before class....;)

[tparkerkfo]

Wow, Talk about a beat to death subject. Now, if I can just beat it a little bit more.

Carl is good. I have touched his hands. But people wont beleive that cause I said so. Aint gonna happen. I hear Buddy is good too. Our friend has checked out Carl and was impressed. Now hopefully he will find Buddy's school. He wont go wrong with Carl, and probably not with Buddy either. Is Carl the best. Nah, but he is good and he hold TRUE to the concepts of his lineage. I have meet many people from different lineages and I can say from my experience, Carl is as good or better than most.

But, what I would offer to the discussion is that the school SHOULD be one in which our friend will be confortable in. One that he feels he is a member of the school. The best teacher is not allways the best. I have studied with Ken and I feel he is the best I have encountered. But, occasioanlly some of his students can help to teach me better than him. Not because he is a poor teacher, quite the oppoisite. But because people have different ways of viewing and expressing ones self.

Again, this guy is probably in a win-win situation.


Tom
________
no2 vaporizer (http://vapirno2.net)

[Chum Kil]

tparkerkfo,

Do you study Wing Chun in Sacto? With whom?

[Odie-wan]

Finally hooked up with Master Wu. He just got back from Ho Kam Ming's birthday party north of the border. He took a bunch of students with him and had a jolly old Chi Sau - Fest with Augustine Fong and the boys. I'll be meeting with Mr. Wu for his monday class.

[gnugear]

I'm anxious to hear your thoughts ... good luck in your search!

[tparkerkfo]

Hello Chum Kil,

I don't study wing chun in Sacramento, I just live there; )

I moved there recently and still have ties to the bay area. I do study Hung Gar in sac though. Opps, I am sorry for using the dirty word...... LOL. I am hoping to start a small group that way that may be interested in informally working out. But I don't know any one in that area. You from that area?

Tom
________
Homemade handheld vaporizer (http://www.vaporshop.com)

[Chum Kil]

Tom,

I responded to your PM. Thanks.

[AndrewS]

The student of Buddy's a couple of folks have referred to has been a good friend of mine for the last 6 yrs or so- we've trained together off and on for that period, and I've had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Wu and was impressed.

The student of Buddy's, Deji, and I have compared notes and bounced each other around for a while and spent a bunch of time comparing theory and mechanics, an ongoing discussion in both words, chi sao, and application which has been extraordinarily important to the development of my understanding of Wing Chun.

This being said, having met and compared notes with one of Carl's students years back, and having one of my old juniors having trained at Carl's, I offer the following comments.

Both teachers have something quite good and come from very different approaches and significantly different body mechanics to effect those approaches.

I prefer what I understand to be the mechanics of Leung Sheung line, but I've seen that Buddy's approach will build something quite good too, and I am curious to where that method leads.

If you are interested in fighting, Buddy's seems a good place to go, and all of the students of his which I have met, have been open, friendly, and with an excellent attitude, something which speaks very well of Mr. Wu as a teacher.

Later,

Andrew

[yuanfen]

Good comparative picture Andrew.
After looking at both schools the original inquirer can decide for
himself. Comfort levels can vary.
joy

[bloodgod]

Red5angel doesnt learn from Carl, His actual teacher is ?named ?mike. They live in miniapolis . Carl is his Si gung is in Ohio . And he did say if he found the better he would go since that is what he is always looking for--so obviously Ken is on anothe planet than carl so, Red--move to Cali for better WC

[Grendel]

Originally posted by bloodgod
so, Red--move to Cali for better WC
The secret's out---California. It's the chi....:cool:

[red5angel]

Odie-Wan, I still think you need to check out one of Carl's classes. then you will get a better idea of what he is about. Just stopping in to see him isnt enough. You wouldnt be able to make a good ecision on what is the better learning environment without checking the class out. I suggest you go more then once just to get a good feel for it!

AndrewS, do you remember who the student of Carls was that you touched hands with? All of his good students are still training with him, anyone that is only trained with him for 1-2 years has only got a little bit of what he has, Carl feels he needs at least 5 years to produce something of real substance in someone.

[yuanfen]

All of his good students are still training with him, anyone that is only trained with him for 1-2 years has only got a little bit of what he has
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Sounds like a put down of the Seattle students he left behind-
unless by "with him" is meant something spiritual?

[Atleastimnotyou]

it is not a put down to the seattle students. They are still training under him. Carl does seminars out there a lot.

[gnugear]

yep, we're all fine. Carl makes it out for seminars so nobodys been abandoned.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by yuanfen
All of his good students are still training with him, anyone that is only trained with him for 1-2 years has only got a little bit of what he has
-------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like a put down of the Seattle students he left behind-
unless by "with him" is meant something spiritual?

Hi Yuanfen,

As you know, despite your tongue-in-cheek comments, the Seattle bunch are in Steve Elaimy's good hands. :D

Seattle's a scary city. Must be from too much Starbucks' caffeine consumption. Reminds one of SF. :(

Regards,

[red5angel]

Yuanfen, trying hard today are we? It means all of Carls students not just those that train with him everyday. Stephen who teaches the Seattle School, is still one of Carls students,
Really yuanfen, trying to stir up inter school trouble in a lineage is really sad. Please dont do this, its not appreciated.

[gnugear]

Originally posted by Grendel


Seattle's a scary city. Must be from too much Starbucks' caffeine consumption. Reminds one of SF. :(

Regards,

I thought all the crazy WC guys in Seattle was a good thing;)