Full time vs. Part time teachin

[lotusleaf]

What do you guys think of this? I mean, the cons and pros of both full time and part time instruction. Would you rather be w/ a full time instructor or it doesn't matter? Why? Just opinions. Thanks.

[rubthebuddha]

unless you have a phatty school, MA instructors don't make squat. so you're either already rolling in cash and can afford to have a low-paying job, or you're barely getting by for yourself. add a family, and you're s.o.l.

[TaoBoy]

Full-time or part-time makes no difference to the ability of the instructor.

Most full-time schools I know are either over-priced or fit neatly into the McDojo category. And most of the part-time guys do it for the love of it.

Hey, it's just what I see.

[couch]

how my Sifu did it all these years. He faced poverty trying to keep the school's door open. He promised himself when he opened it up that it would never close.

He even kept it open through the summer months where there were only 2-3 students coming. He payed the rent, operating costs, and kept with his family.

When I heard this...I was so amazed.

If you want to teach to pass the knowledge, you must make sacrifices. We all sacrifice something in our lives to become *someone* in the end.

There are people out there with this mind-set...

Maybe the key is to get these types of people together and teach together to make a school flourish. A perfect example of this is my three good friends, training together, learning together, helping each other, teaching together, all under one roof.

Actually...they're all brothers!

...with a lot of things in life, I don't believe the saying "if you want it bad enough, you will get it..." it should read "sacrifice" instead of "want." But with Martial arts...it comes more naturally.

I think this is because so many circumstances leave. No politics, no passing someone else's test, etc. The only person that is going to make it happen is you.

Couch.

[gazza99]

Instructors are less inclined to B.S. you, or rip you off if they dont rely on their martial art instruction to feed them and their family. Like someone else said, many of the full time schools fit into the Mcdojo category.

Gary

[HuangKaiVun]

On the flip side, a full-time instructor just might be LESS likely to rip you off.

That's because we (I happen to be a full-timer) have our entire livelihoods depending on our schools. We cannot AFFORD to mess around with bad business practices, lest our customers run away from us.

Just because a school is a "McDojo" doesn't mean it's bad. When it comes down to it, the "McDojos" are SATISFYING the wishes and needs of their customers. If they weren't, the customers wouldn't pay and would go elsewhere. That's why I don't believe in the term "McDojo" and even APPLAUD IT from time to time. Nor do I remember labeling a school a "McDojo" in near or even distant memory.

My energy, as a full-time martial arts instructor, is devoted entirely to martial arts teaching and practice. The time I would've spent working a day job is spent on the martial arts business. I'm not sure if everybody realizes how much WORK goes into being a kung fu business owner behind the scenes - or even IN the scenes.

If I only had 2-3 students a month, I would be asking myself "What can I do BETTER so that more students would come in?" With the sword of financial insolvency hanging over my head, I'd be doing everything in my power to improve myself financially - and that means finding more students. If a teacher is great, SHOULDN'T he earn a solid profit?

My experience in learning kung fu is that there's a HUGE difference between the teaching of full-timers and part-timers. Thus far, the best instruction I received was from my full-time instructors who ran their schools as if their lives depended on it - which it DID. The price might have been higher, but I got more bang for my buck in the long run.

It is after THOSE successful family-feeding full-time masters I model myself as a business owner.

[GLW]

It truly makes no difference to the quality of teaching.

This was also true in China.

For example, one of the more famous northern stylists of the 20th century was Wang Ziping. He was trained as a doctor of traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) as well as being VERY well known for his fighting ability.

He practiced medicine to pay the bills. He taught martial arts forgoing payment in his evenings. EVERY day but one a week.

There were always students at his home compound...and patients.

He was part time in that sense...but probably did more in a day than many people do for their paying job.

[mantiskilla]

"On the flip side, a full-time instructor just might be LESS likely to rip you off."
most of the schools that are being talked abouthere just churn and burn. of course it will catch up eventually.

"We cannot AFFORD to mess around with bad business practices, lest our customers run away from us."
not really sure what you mean by bad business practice, but the problem is that most people who go into these schools dont know enough to see that it is bs. ( if thats the case)

"If I only had 2-3 students a month, I would be asking myself "What can I do BETTER so that more students would come in?" With the sword of financial insolvency hanging over my head, I'd be doing everything in my power to improve myself financially ..."
when you do everything in your power to improve yourself financially, does that not lend itself possibly to unsavory practices?

"t is after THOSE successful family-feeding full-time masters I model myself as a business owner."
sometimes being a successful business owner does not lend itself to being a good teacher, and looking out for your students growth and learning, instead of the bottom line.

This is nothing at all against you, i dont know you. Ive just had different experiences in my life. Im glad that you have had so much success with your teachers and your business, good luck.:)
________
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[fa_jing]

So Huang - are you going ot teach cardio-kick and kiddie classes? I rather think you should.

[TenTigers]

nothin wrong with cardio-kick classes-they pay the rent and keep your doors open so you can concentrate on the serious students. Kiddie classes? Well, Jet Lei started at four. Kiddie classes are an opportunity to start some kids (not all stay) on the ground floor, developing a solid foundation for the future.Along the way, they learn coordination, discipline,exercise, and how to set short-term goals. Plus for them it's fun and a much better enviornment than Jr Soccer leagues.
As far as contracts go, my landlord doesn't want to hear that some of my students couldn't pay this month. Neither does the electric company, gas, insurance, etc. Students who are serious and MATURE enough to pay on time, without having to be chased down, or reminded, or coming up with excuses, etc, really don't have a problem with contracts. You pay your car, mortgage,insurance the same way. Did you ever try to tell your car company, "I didn't drive it for two weeks, do I still have to pay?" Now, the flip side is, if the instructor sells you a song and dance and doesn't deliver, well caveat emptor. You have to research, watch classes, take an intro,find out about the teacher. Forget "credentials" diplomas, and other 'wallpaper', and although lineage tells the legitimacy of a system, it doesn't guarentee the quality of the instructor-he could've been the teacher's worst student.

[Ray Pina]

Couch, aren't you an enlightened one;) :D

[ddh]

Being full time or part time says nothing about the quality of the teacher or the teachings. It's better to do things because you have your heart in it than to do so because it pays the rent.
Most of the teachers I have known have developed a number of skills to live by and many of those skills are related to MA. Medicine comes to mind as a strong related skill.
After college, I decided to dedicate my life to MA but not neglect other areas of interests. It took a long time to stablize but, after 30 years, I can honestly say that the 3 major areas of work I do pay for my needs. I'm not rich but I do well. Each of these areas have enriched me and each tie into each other. I would suggest that people think in terms of skills to be developed in areas that you have an interest in because in the end, your whole world of activity will be enriched. Otherwise, you may end up compromising your art to satisify your basic needs - hence - MacDojos!:D

[HuangKaiVun]

I will NOT teach cardio kick boxing, and even my "kiddie" classes aren't typical kiddie classes.

The one thing I won't do is be something that I'm not. I have never done cardio kickboxing in my life as a student or teacher, and I don't intend to.

I will hold children's classes which will be structurally different from adult classes. Children process information differently from adults, at least in my teaching experience. The kung fu will not be any less real, but the kids will be getting training that's targeted toward the pre-pubescent physique and mentality.

The way I see it, I was once a kid once (and still AM, to a large extent). I always HATED IT when grownups talked down to me and treated me like an idiot. My goal is to teach those kids the way I'd have wanted to be taught myself.


mantiskilla, thanks for the warnings!

On the other hand, earning $$$ doesn't necessarily result in corruption and bad kung fu.

Just because a guy does well financially doesn't mean that he becomes susceptible to corruption. In fact, my experience with guys in business (not just in kung fu) is that the well-off guys built their reputations and fortunes by integrity and quality. One who practices "evil" business might earn some level of $$$, but it won't last over a long period of time.

I believe in the Buddhism of business - what one does, for better or worse, comes back to haunt him. That's why I'm making every darned effort to try to improve what I'm doing and be a good businessman for my clients.

Part of the reason I've had so much success with my teachers and business is because I have invested the time and effort to find out about guys before putting down anything toward the training. For every 1 teacher I've signed on with, there were probably about 20 that I walked away from. And I EXPECT my students to do the same with me.

My thing as a martial artist is that I know what I am and know what I am not. I'll focus on the things that I know I can do and leave the stuff I can't do to others.

Wang Zhiping was a great martial artist, but I don't have a clue as to what he was like as a TEACHER. I wish I could've taken a lesson from him, and it would have been interesting to see what he would've done in the West's capitalist economy as opposed to Red China's Communist system. Wang was China's chairman of kung fu, a post which obviously didn't NOT pay $$$.

[TenTigers]

personally, I teach because I love Gung-Fu. Period. I teach six days a week, full-time, and when I'm not working, I'm training, or studying from other teachers, or reading, or whatever. Martial arts is not only my career, it's my hobby, my life. I've been involved in it for thirty years, and will always be a student. I also feel I have a right to get paid, and get paid well for what I offer to my students. A lawyer goes to school for six years and charges over 250. per hour, I have been studying for 30 yrs, how much do I deserve to get paid? There is a vast difference between commercial and professional. One thing I will NOT do is compromise my integrity, my art for the sake of commercialization. I will not water down my art. I consider that destroying a legacy. I will however constantly search for better ways to teach, train, and develop my students. And more effective buisness procedures. Simple, basic things like: marketing, advertising,enrollment procedures, teaching exciting classes, providing exellent student service. Not fast-talking used car salesmanship,watered down curriculums, apathetic teaching. And, BTW there are a few teachers who consider themselves to be traditional, selective, hardcore, non-commercial Sifus, who are turning out pure, unadulterated crap. It makes no difference whether it is full-time, or part-time, comercial or professional. it's about quality. period.

[GLW]

Actually, you have it not quite on for Wang Ziping.

While he WAS indeed well respected in the PRC (and still is), that is NOT where his fame came from.

He died in his 90's during the Cultural Revolution.

Earlier, he was the Head of the Shaolin Division (first one) at the Nanjing Central Guoshu Guan. He was quite respected as a teacher. The caliber of his students - martially and in respect to martial ethics was quite high. Yet, he was NOT a mean or overbearing teacher.

His love of China transcended the political structure. He did NOT play politics due to his desire to help the chinese people...sort of went along with being a doctor. He taught medicine as well as martial arts.... and his students in both went on to spread his teachings throughout china and the world.

He spent the last part of his life in Beijing...but prior to that he taught in Nanjing, he taught for the chinese military (pre- WWII), and on... If the methods of his daughter and son-in-law are any indication, I would say he was a thorough and committed teacher...but very patient.

[fa_jing]

The problem with contracts is that you are expected to sign one right away, after your 1-2 "free" classes. Students should be able to pay for the first month outside of a contract.

[TenTigers]

That seems like a good choice. We allow certain flexibility-after all, it IS my school. We also allow cancellations of the contract, unlike some McDojos, who do not, and if their student quits, they still pay. I look at it this way; If you don't want to be here, I don't want you here. The last thing I need is some disgruntled student talking **** in my locker room. This spreads like cancer. Better to cut it out. Secondly, if I don't want someone as a student, say a student has a bad attitude, which we didn't catch on the initial interview, I don't want to be bound to HIM. "Hey, you signed a contract. You HAVE to teach me." Contracts insure the school that tuition is made on time. They were developed out of nessesity. (sp?)Deadbeat students are like deadbeat tenants, or deadbeat dads. The bottom line is, the rent, and utilities aren't free. If the student is ripping off the Sifu, thern it comes out of his pocket. Try going to a resteraunt eating HALF of your filet mignon and say,"I don't want anymore, do I still have to pay?" yeah, it IS the same thing. It;s just that people do not yet recognize martial arts instruction as serious buisnesses. strange world.

[GLW]

Correction... I meant to say Wang Ziping spent the last part of his life in shanghai....

What was I thinking.....