Anti `No forward pressure` campaign

[Miles Teg]

I was going to add this to the `Is WT the best` thread, but as WT is not the only WC that doesn�ft use forward pressure I thought Id make this a separate thread all together.

I don�ft understand why some W.C schools don�ft apply forward pressure. To me it doesn�ft make any sense at all.

1.If there is no forward pressure you are really chasing hands? Don�ft you have to go around everything to get to your target, thus taking the longer route?

2.If you and your partner aren�ft using forward pressure then how do you measure where your structure has holes?

3.More importantly how do you learn how to hold your structure?

4.How do know whether you are rooted or not as there is no pressure in the first place to make you move?

5.And also how do you learn to uproot your opponent?

6.Another thing I wonder about is punching, when you strike in chi sao your arm goes towards a target and then an oponents arm gets in the way what do you do, instantly slow down to a stop so that when your arm makes contact with the other arm there wont be any forward pressure?

7.How do learn which way you should move your structure to generate maximum power?

8.How do you get the spring in your arms?

9.If you are only thinking forward then aren�ft you detaching thought from action?
If your mind is thinking forward but not your arms aren�ft pressing forward then the action of going forward when an opening occurs is a mental one and not an instant physical one.Also if you are focusing forward your energy forward with your mind your limbs will want to go that way thus creating forward pressure. If you are only thinking forward but don�ft let your arms go forward then somewhere in your mind you are also holding back.

Im sure I will hear the following:
`forward pressure relies on strength`
`if you use forward pressure then the opponent can borrow your energy`
`By not using forward pressure we are hiding our intentions making us less predictable to our opponent`

And I disagree with all that but this entry is already too long.

[kj]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Im sure I will hear the following:
`forward pressure relies on strength`
`if you use forward pressure then the opponent can borrow your energy`
`By not using forward pressure we are hiding our intentions making us less predictable to our opponent`

And I disagree with all that but this entry is already too long.

Sounds like the conversation is concluded then. Was it as good for you as it was for me? :D

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Miles Teg]

I dont know give me a cigerette, maybe that will help.

[kj]

A non-exhaustive offering, in no particular order:


a) We sometimes apply forward pressure in the course of practice.
b) "Pressure" may not always be applied, but "intention" is.
c) Thought precedes action. There is a correlation between "intention and action," and one which can be improved through practice.
d) The key (IMHO) is "listening" and "sensitivity" of a serious sort.
e) Some people practice to "force" holes or opportunities. Others practice to "perceive and utilize" the slightest hole or vulnerability (contrast this with "going around" or taking the long route). We each get to pick our poison.

Apologies if you've already considered and discounted these. ;) :p :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[old jong]

There is a very fine line between pressure and intention.It can be a very light stretching of the skin!...(I would have a cigarette too if I was smoking!);)

[Atleastimnotyou]

If you are in position and you aren't collapsing, then you'll have forward intent. How precise you apply it is up to you. you don't get forward intent by pressing in. that is to commiting.

[reneritchie]

I prefer forward intent to forward pressure. May just be semantics. Like much of WCK, I think we avoid extremes and lurk in the middle.

BTW- If someone has more forward pressure than you, what are you going to do? Try to overpower it?

RR

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
I prefer forward intent to forward pressure. May just be semantics.

In some cases I do think it is semantics. Notions of physical "force" (in the physics sense) apply even without trying to be "forceful" (in the athletic sense). If I run into a street lamp pole it feels "forceful" on my sore noggin even though the street lamp pole hasn't made any effort to apply pressure or be forceful.

Two people with great horses, and excellent positioning combined with proper intentionality can exert extreme pressure without either party necessarily being "forceful" in the sense of strength or power. Not that standing around "pressurized" this way is the ultimate goal of practice, but it has it's place and utility, IMHO. Not the least of which is learning one's capacity and limits. I do, however, set the development and use of sensitivity as a higher order goal.


Like much of WCK, I think we avoid extremes and lurk in the middle.

I agree. I usually discover answers somewhere in the balance of extremes.


BTW- If someone has more forward pressure than you, what are you going to do? Try to overpower it?

Not me. I'm a relative weakling and don't have that much energy to spare.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[rubthebuddha]

rene,

betcha i got more foward pressure than you. :p

seriously, i think it is a semantics different. intent is preferable to pressure. however, newer students seem to need a bit of pressure to get the sensitivity down. as they get more and more touchy-feely, the fade from pressure and into intention take place.

[kj]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
I dont know give me a cigerette, maybe that will help.

LOL. A slight tangent perhaps, but try this (http://www.rochesterwingchun.com/RWC_files/pages/readings/WCWindows_kjbc30Jun2001.htm).

[Savi]

1.If there is no forward pressure you are really chasing hands? Don�ft you have to go around everything to get to your target, thus taking the longer route?

-This question is really too vague to get an accurate answer. Are both parties void of forwardness? Going around everything to get to your target... hmmm, your question has to address your position in relation to the opponent (and is this strictly a Chi Sao question or are we addressing kicking range also?).

2.If you and your partner aren�ft using forward pressure then how do you measure where your structure has holes?

-That can be measured visually. However taking advantage of the structural flaw from where your position is is a completely different scenario!

3.More importantly how do you learn how to hold your structure?

- I don't understand the question completely. In combat, Chi Sao, any physical engagement... "holding" structure as I am interpreting it means that you are trying to slow everything down: the opponent, the energies, Time, even yourself. Techniques are not static postures. Techniques as the Yip Man/ Moy Yat family understand are motions which continuously change from one to another. They are dynamic in nature so by my understanding of your question, to hold structure is to violate your nature which should be to adapt, and be alive, to flow forward and be aware of the unaware.

4.How do know whether you are rooted or not as there is no pressure in the first place to make you move?

-If there is no pressure challenging your position, you shouldn't be rooted. Your initiative will allow you to attack when your opponent stops coming towards you. There is a difference in neccesity when you need to have mobility vice stability. If your opponent no longer focuses on taking your ground, by neccesity you must destroy his balance to affect his root, which means that you cannot stay where you are. If at a kicking range, mobility is more important than stability. At striking range stability (root) is just as important as mobility. BUT of course this is choice. You could always disengage and walk away...

5.And also how do you learn to uproot your opponent?

-Never play in the same plane in space your opponent is structured. Never go toe to toe, force against force. If their energy is on a horizontal plane in space, take your energy on a vertical plane. If their energy is up and down (direction-wise) go forward. If they go forward, take their energy sideways.

6.Another thing I wonder about is punching, when you strike in chi sao your arm goes towards a target and then an oponents arm gets in the way what do you do, instantly slow down to a stop so that when your arm makes contact with the other arm there wont be any forward pressure?

-Never stop. Adapt and flow around your obstacle. The problem in the first place was that your arm went forward, but not with the body (as in your scenario). In the advanced levels of WC, the Biu Jee level, the concept of "Biu" refers to full body use. 100% energy, body, and intent for the task at hand. If you use this concept instead of singular parts of the body, you would find much more effective results.

7.How do learn which way you should move your structure to generate maximum power?

-This is diving more into combat strategies and tactics. A general answer will not suffice for your question.

8.How do you get the spring in your arms?

-This is a purely attributal question. Try more arm exercises, plyometric cords for building speed under dynamic tension. Weight training will not put more spring, but it will add more mass/definition/power depending on how you weight train.

9.If you are only thinking forward then aren�ft you detaching thought from action?
If your mind is thinking forward but not your arms aren�ft pressing forward then the action of going forward when an opening occurs is a mental one and not an instant physical one.Also if you are focusing forward your energy forward with your mind your limbs will want to go that way thus creating forward pressure. If you are only thinking forward but don�ft let your arms go forward then somewhere in your mind you are also holding back.

-More training and understanding on Body Unity is required to solve this problem. What is your current understanding of Body Unity?

[WingTsun20]

What you mean WingTsun doesn't use forward pressure!!!????

I'm confused

[Matrix]

I'm not too fond of the term "pressure", because that word has a connotation of force or tension. We use the term "forward energy" or Chung Chi.

As someone said earlier, it may be a question of semantics.

Matrix

[teazer]

Originally posted by kj
In some cases I do think it is semantics.

With some of these descriptions, the difference sounds more than semantics.
A couple of things to keep in mind -
Are your arms dead or alive? Are you balanced or leaning on someone?

[Miles Teg]

Im in a hurry and Ill reply properly soon, but I thought Id clear some things up.

No Im not talking about forward intention by itself Im talking about physically applying pressure to someone elses bridge/structure.

KJ said:
`Two people with great horses, and excellent positioning combined with proper intentionality can exert extreme pressure without either party necessarily being "forceful" in the sense of strength or power. `

Thats exactly what Im talking about. There is no need to exert muscular strength, in fact the more relaxed you are the better you can do it.

RR said:
BTW- If someone has more forward pressure than you, what are you going to do? Try to overpower it?

Well, you try to match it, and maybe change the angle and see if they are weeker there. But if you are doing Chi Sao in the manner that Im talking about with someone good if they apply pressure on you and you cant hold it, you will try to move to another angle but they will keep following you with that consistent pressure so there is no escape.


Savi! Ill get to you later. Scared? Well you should be! (just kidding around)

[YungChun]

Forward energy is required in Chi-Sao. The tenant, 'Freed hand shoots forward,' the hand must be freed. Freed from what? From the obstruction. The obstruction to what? The obstruction to your forward energy! Not an opening that we see or even feel and react to - freed shoots - means by itself- spring. Bruce, 'It punches all by itself..'

It is like water. Is the water in a glass at rest? No it is not. It is always 'pressing' on the glass that contains it. Should the slightest crack appear water will penetrate. A few cracks in a dam and what happens? Just a matter of time before the dam collapses.

I have seen some people doing Chi-Sao in odd ways - looks like slap-boxing. This is not Chi-Sao. Chi- Sao is an exchange of dynamic energy through sticking and using Wing Chun movements. Can your technique in Chi-Sau be done slowly as well as fast? If you have the line and the position you need not do it fast - it will still work without the speed. Now if you don't have the line and the position then you will need to use that fast slap-box Chi-Sao. If you do it really, really fast lots of people will think you're good - but watch out for the people with real spring energy.

Chung- Chi means 'heavy sticking' and adds a kind of Fa Jing to the already present (we hope) forward energy.

Wonder if those not useing forward energy are the same ones not using wrist to wrist contact in Luk Sao in their Chi-Sao. Another mind blower to me anyway.

[12345]

Using "intent" in this context just confuses the issue. In chi sao if I apply forward pressure I INTEND to do so, and if I do not that is because I DO NOT INTEND to do so.

To say you are not applying forward pressure but you do have forward intent is to redefine the word intent to mean something other than its dictionary definition.

I agree with much of what was said initially in terms of forward pressure generally being preferable and I think the arguments put forward are generally sound.

[Frank Exchange]

IMO lut sao jik chung (I never spell it the same way twice! ;)) is absolutely fundamental, particularly to my WSL lineage.

Whether you translate it as "when there is an opening, rush in", "the running forwardness of the hands", "springy force", "forward intent", "prying energy", or in other ways, the concept is the same.

In practice there really does need to be a phsyical component to this, but a good way to initially learn this is not by pushing, but by thinking, getting the forward mental intent. Otherwise the pushing will tend to be unfocused and will travel sideways rather than forward.

As you get better, the mental forward springiness can do the job, particularly when you are dealing with those less experienced, but I prefer to continue to use a physical springiness also.

For me, as a right-handed beginner, the first time my left hand sprang unbidden through a gap and clocked my opponents chin was a thing of beauty, a wonder to behold. I had not conciously willed it forward, a gap had appeared, the springy forwardness had struck for me. Happy times. :)

It is also worth repeating, as someone else has said, that this should be applied to the whole body, so not just the arms shoot foward, but the body. The springiness eventually comes from the whole stance, via the elbows.

YungChun, do I understand that you chisao with contact on the wrists? I find this very awkward, as it gives my oppondent too much room to move. I much prefer to be closer, contacting mid-forearm. This also helps use my lut sao jik chung to overcome any kicks or knees he may attempt, and concentrates the feeling in my elbows, rather than my hands.

But, as it says below....

[kj]

I always enjoy the water analogy.


Originally posted by YungChun
Wonder if those not useing forward energy are the same ones not using wrist to wrist contact in Luk Sao in their Chi-Sao. Another mind blower to me anyway.

Why only wrists? Why so far apart?

Can you be more precise as to what blows your mind in others' practice? Is it, as examples,


when there is no contact
when there is more contact (e.g., full forearm)
when there is intermittent contact
other?
[/list=a]

Re semantics: I've noted the following terms bandied about in this thread thus far:

[list]
pressure
intent/intentionality
force
forcefulness
energy
... others?


Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Frank Exchange]

KJ,

Oooh, ooh, let me.

springiness
pry

How do I do those little bullet points? :confused:

[kj]

Not begging disagreement on your comments, but only offering a few additional thoughts.


Originally posted by 12345
Using "intent" in this context just confuses the issue. In chi sao if I apply forward pressure I INTEND to do so, and if I do not that is because I DO NOT INTEND to do so.

Another perspective (http://www.rochesterwingchun.com/RWC_files/pages/readings/PositionIntent_kjbc24Feb2002.htm) . [Apologies for references; I've got a penchant for leveraging, reuse, & time management.]


To say you are not applying forward pressure but you do have forward intent is to redefine the word intent to mean something other than its dictionary definition.

Words have both connotations and denotations. I'm an avid dictionary lover myself (I've a personal copy of the OED for crying out loud), but appreciate that language is also much more.

Pensive regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by Frank Exchange
KJ,

Oooh, ooh, let me.

springiness
pry

How do I do those little bullet points? :confused:

You can use the automagic "list" feature (to select bulleted, numbered, or alphabetized lists) or manually enter something like this ...



springiness
pry


Regards,
- kj

[YungChun]

Originally posted by Frank Exchange
YungChun, do I understand that you chisao with contact on the wrists? I find this very awkward, as it gives my oppondent too much room to move. I much prefer to be closer, contacting mid-forearm. This also helps use my lut sao jik chung to overcome any kicks or knees he may attempt, and concentrates the feeling in my elbows, rather than my hands.


Are you of LT - EB lineage?


Luk Sao is rolling hands. The positions Fook, Tan, Bong control the line from the wrist to the elbow - the Bong only at the wrist.

Aside from correct structure as can be found in the SLT - let's look at simple leverage: If a Tan is more than an inch past your wrist The leverage favors the Tan. It's akin to a lever. If you try to press on a lever - jacking up a car - as you move closer to the fulcrum the force needed increases greatly. If you move too close to the fulcrum you simply can't jack up the car no matter how strong you are. Likewise with being miles past the wrist: Someone is already in people.

When you play Chi-Sao the tools can only do their job if the structure is correct - i.e. correct hand positions - see SLT.
Luk Sao - rolling hands is where the 'battle' for controlling the Centerline begins. Luk Sao is done wrist to wrist. Good players will exploit bad position in measurements of say .3 inches off the line. How is this determined - by structure in relation to the line. A near perfect Tan and Fook share the line at the wrist - you cannot have a structurally correct shared position joined otherwise. If in the rolling the Tan, with good position passes your Fook this means your Fook had moved off the line - by whatever distance, say 0.3 inches. A good player will take advantage of that line with forward energy and open you up as you try to catch up. Catch up to what? Catch up to the defect you presented him. Likewise if the Tan and Fook share at the wrist and the Fook's wrist and forearm become too aligned in relation to the Centerline this moves Tan off the line - and another defect exists which can be used and further exploited by the Fook.

These techniques can be done in slow motion and still work - proving that it is the energy and position that are most important - not speed.

Quote:

"I find this very awkward, as it gives my opponent too much room to move. "

That's the whole point: You must learn how to deal with this. When you enter on your enemy he will probably not be looking to join at the elbows with you. You will often need to bridge - bridging happens closer to the wrist. We train at the wrist, which you think is harder - it is and we do it.

Quote:
"This also helps use my lut sao jik chung"

We do lut sao jik chung by starting from the wrist. Seem harder – it is – you need a horse.

Chi Sao and later Long Arm Chi Sao teach how to bridge and control the opponent's energy and balance. If fighting you are not going to start a bridge from elbow to elbow range - you will have to use your hands and your horse to get there - which BTW is what Chi-Sao is supposed to be teaching you. In order for it to do this you should start rolling at the wrist in Luk Sao. That is if you are from Yip Man's lineage.

In all the clips and films of Yip I have always seen him play Chi-Sao at the wrists - ever notice? Likewise I am sure this and more info is to be found on the web. Do some research - what have you got to lose?

For anyone with an empty teacup: The direct descendants of Yip Man that I have studied with teach that wrist to wrist contact in Luc-Sao is critical to proper development - it's your kuing-fu.

[teazer]

These techniques can be done in slow motion and still work - proving that it is the energy and position that are most important - not speed........
In all the clips and films of Yip I have always seen him play Chi-Sao at the wrists - ever notice?

It could also suggest it is sensitivity & following that is important rather than entirely 'energy & position'.
Which Yip are we talking about? AFAIK There's only video of Yip Man doing SLT, CK & MYJ. There are photos of him doing chi sau.

[black and blue]

"In all the clips and films of Yip I have always seen him play Chi-Sao at the wrists - ever notice?"

As Teazer said! You've seen film footage of Yip Man doing Chi Sau!!!!!!!!!

Where??????????

Want it!!!!!

[Savi]

Originally posted by Miles Teg


Savi! Ill get to you later. Scared? Well you should be! (just kidding around)



I know you're just joking around here :)...but I don't get it?

-Savi.

[reneritchie]

The intent of my bridge is to strike, to cleave down the meridian line. If you put obstacles in my path, my bridge may change at points to tan, fook, bong, etc. but it's core nature (to strike) never changes. The intent is always the same. And the moment the obstacle is gone, it returns to that true nature, and strikes. Forward pressure is one mechanism to teach this, but forward pressure on its own is empty, meaningless. There has to be intent (Yee/Yi).

RR

[reneritchie]

> proving that it is the energy and position

Position I understand (though I prefer 'path' since it's seldom static), but how's 'energy' being used? As a translation for Ging/Jing (force/power)? As something metaphysical (Qi involved?) Help a brother out...

RR

[Frank Exchange]

Nope, not EB/LT lineage, but Wong Shun Leung. :)

I understand most of what you are saying, but disagree somewhat. ;)

I find rolling at the wrist makes it easier for the opponent. It gives him room to kick, it makes the application of my lut sao jit chung harder, and concentrates the feeling in my hands and wrists, whereas in my opinion, the feeling and the control should be in the elbow.

Why should I chisao with these disadvantages, when I can negate them by getting closer and concentrating on my elbow? I could learn to chisao on the fingertips, on the grounds that this would be the hardest of all to learn, but why make it harder for myself?

If my opponent wants to contact on the wrist, I will still contact higher up, I will be closer, and feel better for it. My lut sao jik chung now has more connection to my stance, and my closer proximity negates his use of kicks and knees, as soon as one foot comes off the floor to attack, he gets uprooted and goes over.

If it comes to elbow versus wrist, I will take the elbow every time.

I also disagree that you will fight at such a long range. The vast majority of fights start from very close range, where little or no bridging is required, and the kicking distance is broken down very quickly, if it exists at all.

Again, if I do have to bridge, I prefer not to bridge at the wrist, but closer up towards the elbow, where I have more control.

>> For anyone with an empty teacup: The direct descendants of Yip Man that I have studied with teach that wrist to wrist contact in Luc-Sao is critical to proper development - it's your kuing-fu.<<

Finally, please dont let us get into a lineage thing. WSL was a direct descendent, and taught certain things in different ways form Yip Man, and in different ways from his contempories. Doesnt make him wrong, doesnt make them wrong.
Different interpretation, is all.

Regards

Frank

[YungChun]

Originally posted by reneritchie
> proving that it is the energy and position

Position I understand (though I prefer 'path' since it's seldom static), but how's 'energy' being used? As a translation for Ging/Jing (force/power)? As something metaphysical (Qi involved?) Help a brother out...

RR
No, position, as I am trying to explain - means the position of the tool. Let's take the Fook/Tan:

If you apply the Fook/Tan as it is found in the forms it has certain attributes:

Position
1. The elbow is close to the Centerline
2. The wrist is also close to the Centerline
3. The wrist is slightly higher than the elbow forming a triangle

Energy
1. Forward energy is generated from the elbow
2. The energy is applied into the Centerline from the wrist
3. The energy is sufficient to maintain the tool's shape

A Fook and Tan joined correctly are akin two high pressure water hoses being pointed at each other. If you hold one of the hoses and he holds the other and you both point them at the Centerline neither of you will get too wet. However, if one of you moves slightly off the line he will get blasted with water. In Chi-Sao it is the defect in your structure caused by a defect in your energy that will cause you to 'get blasted.'

The energy of the tool is used to support exact positional control of the tool and thus the line - if you have a 20% defect in your structure then your partner (if he is good) will have 80% control over the line and will use this to gain 100% control over the Centerline. The defect may be that the forward energy is unfocused and therefore structure is off 0.33 inches. If the player can take 100% of the Centerline (Boom!) that is the completion of the Chi-Sao cycle: Share - Take the Line - Start over.

The structure can be found in the forms but the energy must be discovered in Chi-Sao. Do your 'tools' in Chi-Sao look like the same tools in your forms? Does the training conform to the Kuen Kuit - idioms of the system? Check your training.

Re: WSL I have met him - shook his hand. Seems like a nice guy. I never saw any indication from him that Chi-Sao (Luk-Sao) should not be played from the wrist. Not saying he didn't teach that way but I never saw it. Would be interested in any information that comes directly from him in this topic.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by 12345
Using "intent" in this context just confuses the issue. In chi sao if I apply forward pressure I INTEND to do so, and if I do not that is because I DO NOT INTEND to do so. You may find it confusing, others may find it illuminating. Besides, why would you "not intend" to do something, and just what does that mean??? Intention implies purpose, and action. "Not-intending" can mean sitting on your backside eating a bag of potato chips.

Matrix

[Miles Teg]

Matrix
I believe that is exactly the point 1234 was trying to make. If you intend to go forward but dont then then are you really intending to go forward.

Your anology of sitting on the sofa is good, and I liken the person who sits on a sofa eating a bag of chips intending to do something but not getting off his fat a$$ to the Wing Chuner with who doesnt apply forward pressure.


Frank Excange talked about the arm popping out by itself when your oponents stops obstructing you and that is exactly what Im talking about. Its powerful and part of what is referred to as spring. I dont see how you can ahcieve this without foward pressure, in fact having experienced a lineage that didnt use forward pressure I think I can go out on a limb and say this absolutely can not be achieved without forward pressure.

[YungChun]

Here's a pic of WSL doing Chi-Sao. Just one frame - a moment in time, but nevertheless a reference point. Now to me this is fairly close to what I would call wrist to wrist. After some rolling and penetration happens the positions will change a little - but the positions here are close enough to the wrist to make sense to me in terms of position. What say you non-wrist WSL peeps?

http://home.microserve.de/chstein/wong.cs.gif

[Frank Exchange]

I would say the direct opposite! :) That the positions are much closer to forearm than to wrist.

The opponents left hand is clearly using the wrist on Wong's right forearm. Wong's left hand is contacting using the forearm.

Perhaps we are closer than we think. When I think of wrist contact, I think of the left hand of Wong's opponent. When I think of forearm contact, I think of Wong's right hand.
However, if we both look at the same picture, and see the equal justification for our point of view, then what are we arguing about? :)

I have outlined my reasons and preferences for non-wrist contact. I am not telling you that your way is wrong, any more than I am telling you "my" way is right. The most important thing, as Wong often said, is that you can make it work for you.

Regards

Frank

[12345]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Matrix
I believe that is exactly the point 1234 was trying to make. If you intend to go forward but dont then then are you really intending to go forward.
.

Yes that was it in a nutshell.

[kj]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Matrix
I believe that is exactly the point 1234 was trying to make. If you intend to go forward but dont then then are you really intending to go forward.

Your anology of sitting on the sofa is good, and I liken the person who sits on a sofa eating a bag of chips intending to do something but not getting off his fat a$$ to the Wing Chuner with who doesnt apply forward pressure.


Frank Excange talked about the arm popping out by itself when your oponents stops obstructing you and that is exactly what Im talking about. Its powerful and part of what is referred to as spring. I dont see how you can ahcieve this without foward pressure, in fact having experienced a lineage that didnt use forward pressure I think I can go out on a limb and say this absolutely can not be achieved without forward pressure.

My apologies if this seems like slicing a hair ....

How much pressure? Must the forward "pressure" always be proportional to "intent"? Is there any potential utility in applying "minimal" pressure, and if so, how light can that pressure be? Must the forward pressure exerted be high enough so that the opponent perceives it? Does the sensitivity or perceptiveness of the opponent play into this in any way? Is there any degree of pressure that might be too much?

From a different angle, do you employ concepts of "stealth" in your Wing Chun strategy? If so, in what ways?

Just curious on a side note ... anyone here ever do any reading or research on the physiological effects of mental imagery or visualization techniques?

Miles, in the lineage you experienced [I don't presume you experienced the full lineage, LOL] it might be helpful to understand if the individuals you touched were quite advanced in skill, or if they were still at early stages of learning and development. In other words, did they sufficiently understand what they supposed to be doing and have adequately developed skill to demonstrate it?

BTW, you (and others) have mentioned this idea of "spring" several times. Can you elaborate on what you mean by that? E.g., the qualities and means of producing? [I could "guess" but don't like making too many assumptions, a more egregious hazard in a medium like this.]

All these questions are offered mainly in the spirit of food for thought, and whatever degree of conversation you're inclined to. Definitely not trying to burden anyone for answers. In my case, at least, the process usually just leads to more questions anyway, LOL. Egads - life's too short! :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

If

I "intend" to go forward when the path is clear without telegraphing my intention to the opponent in advance

And

I in fact do go forward when the path is clear without having telegraphed my intention to the opponent in advance,

Then

My intention is satisfied.

(Just playing with ya. :D)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[old jong]

There is a big pile of sliced hairs on the floor here!...
Everyone is defending his or her personnal lineage profond theories about what is in reality a training drill supposed to prepare you for combat!...
Intent,pressure,whatever!....Nobody is going to fight you with empty arms sticking out and waiting for you to open some hole to jump into!....He will use force and you will have to be at least able to neutralise or control that force so you don't collide head on with it and his ''intent''...;) So, (Very IMHO) why not just train with the force your training partner is obligely sending to you learning to equalise,deflect,neutralise,sending back,recieve,accompany,attacking as a result of experience and practice instead of transforming a very strong Kung Fu system into some esoteric patty cake playing!......''Hey!....You cheat,you use force!.....'' (I really heard this in a Wing Chun kwoon!!!!!)
:rolleyes:

[black and blue]

''Hey!....You cheat, you use force!.....''

Wasn't it Lap Skywalker who said that? ;)

[old jong]

It is true!....I heard that line many times at a place I was training before! ( I won't name the place to preserve the innocents!) The Sifu was also teaching Tai-Chi and advanced students where strongly advised to learn it in order to better their Wing Chun!....
To make a short story, Everybody was better at talking than doing! It was the ultimate cerebral Wing Chun!

[black and blue]

One of my instuctors (an Aussie who saw the light and came home to the UK :) ) has the best story ever.

He wanted to take WC, saw an ad, turned up, and found...





It was a class called Aerobic Wing Chun. Music, dance moves and WC blended.

Magic!!

[old jong]

1-2-3-4-tan-tan-bong-bong-1-2-3-4-lop-lop-fok-fok-1-2-3-4-!...Do that on Saturday night fever!:eek: :D :D
I believe you B&B! There are strange people out there!:rolleyes:

[kj]

Originally posted by old jong
There is a big pile of sliced hairs on the floor here!...
Everyone is defending his or her personnal lineage profond theories about what is in reality a training drill supposed to prepare you for combat!...
Intent,pressure,whatever!....Nobody is going to fight you with empty arms sticking out and waiting for you to open some hole to jump into!....He will use force and you will have to be at least able to neutralise or control that force so you don't collide head on with it and his ''intent''...;) So, (Very IMHO) why not just train with the force your training partner is obligely sending to you learning to equalise,deflect,neutralise,sending back,recieve,accompany,attacking as a result of experience and practice instead of transforming a very strong Kung Fu system into some esoteric patty cake playing!......''Hey!....You cheat,you use force!.....'' (I really heard this in a Wing Chun kwoon!!!!!)
:rolleyes:

Can't help but wonder who you are talking to and about.

Since there appears to be little interest to engage in conversation on any questions or subjects I've proposed for exploration and dialog, I'll retire to my esoteric patty cake playing hidey-hole for the time being.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[teazer]

Originally posted by old jong
He will use force and you will have to be at least able to neutralise or control that force so you don't collide head on with it and his ''intent''...;) So, (Very IMHO) why not just train with the force your training partner is obligely sending to you

Depends how the arrangement is set up. It would appear from how some describe their method that both people are playing the part of "obliging partner" and perhaps are not aware of it.

[old jong]

Originally posted by kj


Can't help but wonder who you are talking to and about.


These are my views on being to intellectual on Wing Chun and debating on things outside of the practicality of a martial art I expressed these views the same exact way in many threads a long time ago on this forum even before most of today's members were here.I do not wish to insult anybody and specially some of the nicer and respectful ones like you Kathy Jo! I am sorry if my words made you feel as if I was targetting you or any other members.These are just my honest and sincere opinions on a subject,not on people.

[reneritchie]

Hey YC -

> No, position, as I am trying to explain - means the position of the tool. Let's take the Fook/Tan:

Yeah, I gotcha, just to me I look at these more as paths than as positions because the way they move, IMHO, is as important as the 'snapshot' they end up being. To me, Tan, Fook, Bong, etc. are actions, not positions. (I began thinking this way when I was first learning to prevent myself from 'posing' in a position, eg. extended Tan, and not thinking enough about how I got there, or where I was going from there).

> Forward energy is generated from the elbow

Okay, still not following on the 'energy' thing. Is forward energy the same as forward 'force', or is it supposed to be something more internal than this. Is it 'Bik Ging' (pressing power), or something else?

Sorry, don't mean to be a pain, just trying to get on the same page.

In general -

Not sure what the debate is about wrt wrist vs. forearm. Doesn't everybody go through a range, from wrist to right on into the opponent, during Chi Sao? Wrist is probably a safe place to start, much like you might dip a toe into really cold water, but at a certain point I'd think Chi Sao skill would be enough that you could touch pretty much anywhere and still go through a productive exchange.

Also, a spring is a good analogy, but like 'water' and other devices, a spring has no mind/intent (Yee/Yi) and so it will *always* respond, whereas, as thinking, experientially learning critters, we can choose to respond (the difference between forward pressure and forward intent, in some cases).

RR

[old jong]

Originally posted by teazer


Depends how the arrangement is set up. It would appear from how some describe their method that both people are playing the part of "obliging partner" and perhaps are not aware of it.

It is easy Teaser to use quotes outside of context to ''tease'' in some way! Well,your training partner should not be collaborating with you in any way.He should be in fact trying to hit you as bad as he can and gives you no chances at all. You need something to work with don't you? This is the only ''part'' he should play in my mind.

[old jong]

'' Tan, Fook, Bong, etc. are actions, not positions.''

Those are Rene's words and these words are the truth.
Now can actions be immobile? or only intentionnal?....

IMHO, Wing Chun as a fighting system cannot be treated as some kind of meditative art. If we have to fight ,we will face a lot of action and force and we should be ready for that.
The reason of good training is to be able to meet force in the best conditions,without having to wrestle with it.Whatever you like to call it internal or good alingment is not the point. Can you use it for real?

[[Censored]]

Just curious on a side note ... anyone here ever do any reading or research on the physiological effects of mental imagery or visualization techniques?

Inside or outside of Wing Chun? :)

[kj]

Originally posted by [Censored]
Just curious on a side note ... anyone here ever do any reading or research on the physiological effects of mental imagery or visualization techniques?

Inside or outside of Wing Chun? :)

Up to you I suppose. I myself don't normally read during practice.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[reneritchie]

Censored - do you mean the 'classic' experiment where 10 basketball players practice their jump shot every day, 10 mind-set the jump shot every day, and 10 do nothing, with the results being the first 10 improved a lot, the middle 10 improved though not as much, and the last 10 had no statistical improvement?

Mind setting is very important. You can't always be physically doing your WCK, but you can almost always be mindful of it.

BTW - Mind setting can also be invaluable from a self-defense stand point. Please see Anerlich's often recommended Strong on Defense.

KJ - I always thought you read your opponent's like open books? 8P

RR

[old jong]

Now,we are not very far from ''follow the force Luke'' !...
If I can simply comment,I would like to see someone getting better in chi sau by thinking or reading about it!
Sure,the mind,spirit must participate in chi sau or whatever we are doing in our ''physical vehicle''. But the two have to be working together at the same times.
Is there a better way to achieve something than actually doing it?
I will always trust experience before theory alone.They used to say ''Kung Fu is in the bones''
Just my very '' Yang'' opinion!;) ...I prefer to save my ''yin'' for some other times.;)

[kj]

Thank you Crimsonking.


Originally posted by crimsonking
from very light pressure to very heavy pressure - depends what you're working on.

Ah, same for me. In my case, I would qualify the range of "light pressure" to include that which is "barely perceptible." But as I and my brethren are merely players of patty cake kung fu, please let my sharing stand in context. [No, Old Jong, I am not going to let you live it down this time. ;)]

Thank you for explaining your idea and detailed explanation of what you mean when you use the term "springyness." Until and unless we meet in person, I cannot presume to know exactly your method to achieve this, but it certainly helps narrow the focus for our necessarily limited exchange on this forum.

While I don't "aim" for springyness per se, relying more on different mental models and imagery [and in keeping with the overly intellectual sort that I am :p] the qualities you describe appear consistent with what occurs in my practice as well. (Or at least don't appear inconsistent, LOL.)

To Old Jong's comment on meeting or matching pressure, this is also an element for us. I would not consider it an absolute requirement of performance though, in that there are multiple options for dealing with pressure. Sometimes limitations can and will require a different response or solution (e.g., redirection).

Re FrankExchange ... it's a consolation to know I'm not the only one who hits people accidentally. I don't consider myself a loose cannon (hopefully my partners don't either), but I do make a fair share of apologies to people who choose to "run into my fist," LOL, or release me to their detriment. [Lest anyone misread this, the balance is that I make more than my share of mistakes in the learning process, and I endure the suffering to prove it. :(]

I think some others used the term "spring" or "springyness" as well, and I hope some of them will elaborate from their perceptions and insights also.

FWIW, I have seen the inner tube thing used for chi sau by the Wing Chun Do guys. Doesn't fit with my model of Wing Chun or how to train it, but if it works for them and what they are doing, who am I to judge or complain.


... innate beauty, depth of wing chun...

On this part, may we never disagree. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
KJ - I always thought you read your opponent's like open books? 8P

Not far from it. :D

Regards,
- kj

[old jong]

'' To Old Jong's comment on meeting or matching pressure, this is also an element for us. I would not consider it an absolute requirement of performance though, in that there are multiple options for dealing with pressure. Sometimes limitations can and will require a different response or solution (e.g., redirection).''

Sure!...Once contact is made ,you have a good feel of what is possible to do with this incoming force.But,this implies a constant control or equalisation even when redirecting.Anyway,it is what we all do!

" But as I and my brethren are merely players of patty cake kung fu, please let my sharing stand in context. [No, Old Jong, I am not going to let you live it down this time. ]''

I'm done this times!!!!!



:eek:

[teazer]

Originally posted by old jong
It is easy Teaser to use quotes outside of context to

Hardly that in this instance!
Particularly as I was in agreement with you. Did you think the quote used reflected differently than the rest of your post?

[AndrewS]

A couple of thoughts-

if you drop your hands during chi sao, and the other person doesn't come in without conscious thought, they've violated principles, However you get there, you should go in when the way is free.

Structure and pressure are not the same thing- you can hold a very strong structure while exerting no or very little forward pressure.

The more forward pressure you use, the stronger connection you must have through your arms to your body, and even if you are *very* soft and sensitive, you give an equal a path into you to use, if they can find it.

If you used a feedback loop to control reaching for a glass of water you would knock it over every time. Too slow.

To move in well, one probably needs about enough forward pressure to easily allow them to overcome intertia when released- as with all things this should improve over time.

FWIW- I like the 'intent' idea, but would suggest that a measurement device between the wrists of two 'intent' people would still register some exertion of mechanical effort, just d*mn little.

Just some thoughts,

Andrew

[S.Teebas]

Hello Old Jong,


He should be in fact trying to hit you as bad as he can and gives you no chances at all.

IMHO you NEED to build up to this type of pressure. You can’t get a new student and unload full power punches at him/her and expect them to adapt to WC ideas; when they cant cope with event the lightest of forces CORRECTLY. Yeah, they might be able to handle that punch today in class but when your in the street and you do face a guy who’s twice your size, that person is going to get smashed if they arnt taught how to handle the force in a correct manner using structure, focus, centre etc… Ok, so it’s a painstaking process and noticeable advances come over years, not hours… but its worth it in the end IMHO.



IMHO, Wing Chun as a fighting system cannot be treated as some kind of meditative art.

I think the level of concentration required to do WC correctly is similar to meditation in a way. Of course after years of this intense concentration moving in the WC way will become second nature and you wont need to go into a trance to fight (of course this is training not fighting anyway – shouldn’t we be aiming for 100% perfection in training??), basically I believe the first few years of concentration and focus required is quite similar to meditation. This is depending on how precise you want to be of course, if you want to want to get the arm out of the way today they you probably disagree. But if you’re willing to put in the hard yards and have a lot of patience, after years of practicing in this correct way you’ll be able to move that arm and body with next to no effort.


Whatever you like to call it internal or good alingment is not the point.

Then what is? How do you handle the pressure they exert on you if you not using good alignment?

[old jong]

Hello S.Teebas
I think good alignment is synonyme to internal in some way.It equals no big effort in recieving or giving a force. (IMO)

As for the meditation, I think good and intense chi sau practice has to keep you awake and present to the moment if you know what I mean.Being there with mind and body is meditation.We also cannot forget the first part of SLT,the small idea could very well mean '' Think about what you're doing,the motions, the centerline,the stance,not the grocery list!...Or worse,your boss!...

About chi sau, I think it should be as realistic as the level of the practitioners allow for good technique.It should not be a brawll as I migh have sounded like earlier. question of common sense.

Teaser!....
I guess my english is not good enough in that case.I read your comment and it is still unclear to me!!!!Sorry!

[kj]

Andrew S.

Great post. I agree with every point you made. (Dang, and I was hoping to find one to debate on.)

Envying your knack for succinctness ...
- Kathy Jo

[reneritchie]

Andrew & KJ are correct.

[old jong]

Everybody is correct.

[S.Teebas]

Old Jong,


I think good and intense chi sau practice has to keep you awake and present to the moment if you know what I mean

Agreed. But I think you can live in the moment so much you seem as though your meditating...i know that sounds wierd.


SLT,the small idea could very well mean '' Think about what you're doing,the motions, the centerline,the stance,not the grocery list!...Or worse,your boss!...

:) For me SLTs small idea is about not changing your mind.

[old jong]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Agreed. But I think you can live in the moment so much you seem as though your meditating...i know that sound wierd

Yes,I understand what you mean.It is just that as I see it, chi sau has the same effect plus direct skill developpement.;)

We are all correct:cool:

[[Censored]]

If I can simply comment,I would like to see someone getting better in chi sau by thinking or reading about it!

I've seen it more than once. :p

Sure,the mind,spirit must participate in chi sau or whatever we are doing in our ''physical vehicle''. But the two have to be working together at the same times.

There is no "two". :eek:

Is there a better way to achieve something than actually doing it?

Yes, but I don't know how to say it. :confused:

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
I believe that is exactly the point 1234 was trying to make. If you intend to go forward but dont then then are you really intending to go forward. I would have to say No. Was that a trick question? ;)

I'm glad you liked my analogy, it was meant to invoke the response that you described. People, myself included, often intend to do many things in life, but fail because "things" get in the way.

Matrix

[Redd]

Originally posted by old jong
If I can simply comment,I would like to see someone getting better in chi sau by thinking or reading about it!

Then why waste time here.

[Redd]

Originally posted by Matrix
People, myself included, often intend to do many things in life, but fail because "things" get in the way.

Good one.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Redd


Then why waste time here.

Care to elaborate a little?

[Redd]

Originally posted by old jong


Care to elaborate a little?

Does not make sense to play here if talk and thinking is useless.

[Miles Teg]

KJ
Sorry, I don�ft think I�fm replying to your queries in the way you would want them but here goes�c

{How much pressure? Must the forward "pressure" always be proportional to "intent"? }

Well yes, if my sifu increases his intention his arms become heavier and the forward pressure increases, note that he isn�ft becoming more tense in his muscles.

{Is there any potential utility in applying "minimal" pressure, and if so, how light can that pressure be? }

It can be very light, but I believe it needs to be there. You can also turn it up so there is a lot of it.

{Must the forward pressure exerted be high enough so that the opponent perceives it?}

When you say opponent do you mean chi sao partner? Ummm yes I think they should be able to perceive it.

{Does the sensitivity or perceptiveness of the opponent play into this in any way? Is there any degree of pressure that might be too much?}

I don�ft know if I follow you here. However when I chi sao with seniors or my teachers they refrain from exerting much forward pressure on me for my own benefit. As for too much, well we have this drill where we put our arms into chi sao position (stationary not rolling) and then try to move our partner back. In this case quite a lot of pressure builds up until one person can not hold their horse and steps back. For this one has to be relaxed and properly focused. If I become tense in my shoulders or elbows I will not be able to move the partner back. We have to move with our whole body.

{From a different angle, do you employ concepts of "stealth" in your Wing Chun strategy? If so, in what ways?}

Yes, but we don�ft try to hide our intentions of going forward. We don�ft do any sets or punch/defense drills or tan da/pak da drills etc its all in the Chi Sao, Dan chi sao etc. So from reading your article,�@your school isn�ft that different in that respect.

{Miles, in the lineage you experienced [I don't presume you experienced the full lineage, LOL] it might be helpful to understand if the individuals you touched were quite advanced in skill, or if they were still at early stages of learning and development. In other words, did they sufficiently understand what they supposed to be doing and have adequately developed skill to demonstrate it?}

Well my sifu from the other lineage had been doing it for 25 years, and he was a great guy, a gentleman and very respectful to people of other lineages. While I was training there I really enjoyed it. The approach was generally a soft one. When students did chi sao with him we found that with minimum effort he would somehow have his fist in front of our faces all the time. His reasons for not using forward pressure were:
1. Any force that you give your opponent is force that he can use and borrow
2. You don�ft want your opponent to know which way you want to go, W.C is deceptive
3. If you use forward pressure you are not relaxing
4. The softer the touch the more sensitive you can be

Of course my perception is now different to that which was impressed on me at my old Kwoon.

{BTW, you (and others) have mentioned this idea of "spring" several times. Can you elaborate on what you mean by that? E.g., the qualities and means of producing? [I could "guess" but don't like making too many assumptions, a more egregious hazard in a medium like this.]}

Spring�c�cIf you put your bong sau out had I hit it or try to push it will it take some force and then spring right back to the same position? If so you have spring. That�fs just a simple example. It can only be achieved if you are relaxed.

[YungChun]

Hi RR hope I don’t bore you here but…………..


Originally posted by reneritchie

Yeah, I gotcha, just to me I look at these more as paths than as positions because the way they move, IMHO, is as important as the 'snapshot' they end up being. To me, Tan, Fook, Bong, etc. are actions, not positions.



I think that there is a lot of semantic play in this kind of discussion. It is hard to avoid since different people will use different words or thoughts to describe something that may be similar. To be as precise as possible is tough given the subject.

When I say position I refer to structure. Each Wing Chun 'tool' has a structure or shape. These shapes is often based on triangles. What is a structure?



struc·ture

The way in which parts are arranged or put together to form a whole; makeup: triangular in structure.


The framework of a building is a structure, which also uses triangles connected together to support the immense forces at work on the building, like - the weight of the building, environmental forces, wind, jet planes, etc. pressing on the building.

The basic framework of Wing Chun can be seen in it's structure. In this context we can see the structure of the system in the shapes it uses in its tools like, Tan, Fook and Bong. These shapes yield great strength and leverage when used correctly. Just as a building must be able to support its own weight and outside forces so must we. In order to be most successful under very unfavorable conditions we need the best, strongest, structure possible.



Originally posted by reneritchie


> Forward energy is generated from the elbow

Okay, still not following on the 'energy' thing. Is forward energy the same as forward 'force', or is it supposed to be something more internal than this. Is it 'Bik Ging' (pressing power), or something else?



Forward energy is the key, the secret to Chi-Sao.

It is so simple it defies explanation.

Just had an idea to maybe convey this as it applies to how forward energy is applied.

You are asked to hold two doors closed (they open from the Center - in) while sitting in your horse with hands in Tan, Fook, Bong - whatever you like used to hold the doors shut.

1. You must not let the doors open even a crack.

2. The doors cannot open outward only inward, toward you.

3. The doors are not sprung and tend to stay shut all by themselves.

The catch:

4. The doors are on the third floor of a house that lead to a open air balcony.

5. There is a big storm coming with winds from 5 - 70mph

6. Storm will last about 10 minutes.

Question:

What kind of energy will you use, when and how often?

-------------

Forward energy is used:

To maintain structure

To effect the opponent's structure

To detect defects in the opponent's structure

To detect defects is the opponent's energy - meaning non-forward energy.

As a weapon



Originally posted by reneritchie
Not sure what the debate is about wrt wrist vs. forearm. Doesn't everybody go through a range, from wrist to right on into the opponent, during Chi Sao? Wrist is probably a safe place to start, much like you might dip a toe into really cold water, but at a certain point I'd think Chi Sao skill would be enough that you could touch pretty much anywhere and still go through a productive exchange.


We need to start at the wrists. If I get much past them and I have control of the line....this is the key - past them just a bit and I still have correct structure and energy it means he is losing or has lost his. If he hadn't I would not have been able to get there – remember forward energy/position balance or imbalance.



Originally posted by reneritchie

Also, a spring is a good analogy, but like 'water' and other devices, a spring has no mind/intent (Yee/Yi) and so it will *always* respond, whereas, as thinking, experientially learning critters, we can choose to respond (the difference between forward pressure and forward intent, in some cases).


This is why there is constant forward energy projected starting at the elbow – constant. The energy starts from the elbow and is focused into the Centerline via the contact point, such as the wrist. This energy supported by the horse but not from the body at this feeling out stage. In WC the hands and the body are connected at times and at others not. The idea is to train your hands/arms to always be generating this mild yet focused energy. Think of it as FLIR - for any techno people - a kind of forward looking radar that increases your sensitivity to defects in your opponent's structure and energy along the Centerline. A defect is any energy that is not forward and/or bad structure - either is cause for a beating :D

When you have a constant forward energy you will find your hands penetrating without any conscious effort on your part - boom - you train the Yi to be in your hands/arms. Later you will train your body/horse to immediately follow with full power with no thought. This is the only way instant but brief cracks in the opponent’s defense can be used to maximum advantage. The energy is like water always ready to seep in through any crack no matter how small.

HTH

[Frank Exchange]

I would just like to point out that the example I used when I hit someone without thinking about it was not accidental at all, that was the whole point of training LSJC. I was really pleased! :cool:

I should also say that it wasnt a particularly hard hit, but the point of the story was to show that by training for the relaxed springy forward force in chisao, even as a beginner, it wasnt long before my training allowed me to take advantage of the opponents mistake, without conciously thinking about it.

That brings me to my take on "spring". The way we train it is by concentrating on the feeling in the elbows, and totally relaxing the hands. So when we are rolling, the forwardness comes from having the correct structure and alignment of the arms, but then prying forward from the elbows rather than from the hands. This helps to associated the LSJC with the stance, as the driving unit (if you like) is closer to the body.

So the forwardness is like a compressed spring which exherts a constant forward force. When two experienced people are rolling and using their LSJC, then their springiness is neutralised, absorbed more into the stance, but still each of them should be afraid to let go or let even the tiniest gap appear, because if so they will get hit immediately.

The problem with training this at the beginning is that the forward force is unfocused and unstructured, and is more like a muscular push. So we do lots of exercises where the LSJC is applied in rolling, then one person suddenly drops his hands, and we can see where the force of the other goes.

A spring should go forward, but with beginners their arms tend to fly off to one side or downwards, which shows their structure was wrong, and the force was not being applied forward. As they get better, when the opponents hands are removed, the beginner hands start to shoot forward, and when they get a lot better, the hands hit automatically. The pinnacle is when not only do the hands shoot forward, but the whole body, so that the opponent is not just struck with the arms, but with the whole stance with the weight of the body behind it.

We do a lot of training of this! Once you have it down, there are some benefits. You dont have to worry as much about kicks or knees or hooks, because you will always hit first. Of course, that is no good if you just tap the opponent, and his hook takes your head off, but because the LSJC is applied with the whole body, you move forward with each hit, which has the whole bodyweight behind it.

I find it is an invaluable, fundamental part of WC. I particularly find when people visit from other schools that dont train it or place less emphasis on it, they are at an obvious disadvantage.

Well, there's my take on it, hope its of use :)

Regards
Frank

[Frank Exchange]

Blimey, I just read your last post, and realised we are saying almost identical things. LSJC coming from the elbow, ultimately via the stance, structure, constant forward force etc.

We are not so different after all! :)

[Miles Teg]

Hi Crimson

Yes your are right about the bong thing. I was kind of thinking about it in my own context when someone has a tan against the bong and puts some pressure on the bong to test the structure, the bong then springs and goes back into the tan.

THe drill I was talking about is quite good, but a little bit different from normal chi sao.

By the way whats your lineage?



I think forward pressure is where all the amazing things about W.C come from, things that I used to think were not physically possible.

[kj]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
KJ
Sorry, I don'ft think I'fm replying to your queries in the way you would want them but here goes'c


My questions are never demands, only wishes. You, FrankExchange, Crimsonking, all have exceeded my expectations, and it is a fertile morning here.



{How much pressure? Must the forward "pressure" always be proportional to "intent"? }

Well yes, if my sifu increases his intention his arms become heavier and the forward pressure increases, note that he isn'ft becoming more tense in his muscles.


Nice.



{Is there any potential utility in applying "minimal" pressure, and if so, how light can that pressure be? }

It can be very light, but I believe it needs to be there. You can also turn it up so there is a lot of it.


I think the crux lies here, and in the next question/answer on perception and sensitivity of the partner (noted).

IMHO, this harkens back to Andrew's post, where he wrote "FWIW- I like the 'intent' idea, but would suggest that a measurement device between the wrists of two 'intent' people would still register some exertion of mechanical effort, just d*mn little. "



{Must the forward pressure exerted be high enough so that the opponent perceives it?}

When you say opponent do you mean chi sao partner? Ummm yes I think they should be able to perceive it.


Whether or not they perceive it depends on both how much you press, and how sensitive/perceptive they are. From what I can see, I don't know that there is any real disparity in our viewpoints, but if so, I think it lies here and in infinitesimal matters of degree.



{Does the sensitivity or perceptiveness of the opponent play into this in any way? Is there any degree of pressure that might be too much?}

I don't know if I follow you here. However when I chi sao with seniors or my teachers they refrain from exerting much forward pressure on me for my own benefit. As for too much, well we have this drill where we put our arms into chi sao position (stationary not rolling) and then try to move our partner back. In this case quite a lot of pressure builds up until one person can not hold their horse and steps back. For this one has to be relaxed and properly focused. If I become tense in my shoulders or elbows I will not be able to move the partner back. We have to move with our whole body.


Yes. The point of my questions here were to inquire about "range" of pressure. On one end, I propose that one partner may have enough skill to be sufficiently light (yet not lacking in "intent" and the infinitesimal pressure that Andrew will measure on his instrument) but that the other partner is not yet sensitive enough to perceive it. On the other end of range, we can exert enough pressure that it is not only perceived, but can exceed the capacity of the partner to absorb it, thus unbalancing them, uprooting them, or disrupting their own body structure. That's all I was poking 'round about there.



{From a different angle, do you employ concepts of "stealth" in your Wing Chun strategy? If so, in what ways?}

Yes, but we don't try to hide our intentions of going forward.


We do go so far as to do that. Though in class everyone is in on the joke. ;) Again, seems to me it is just the same "degrees of pressure" vs. sensitivity issue.



We don't do any sets or punch/defense drills or tan da/pak da drills etc its all in the Chi Sao, Dan chi sao etc. So from reading your article,'@your school isn'ft that different in that respect.


Okay. And good. :D



{Miles, in the lineage you experienced [I don't presume you experienced the full lineage, LOL] it might be helpful to understand if the individuals you touched were quite advanced in skill, or if they were still at early stages of learning and development. In other words, did they sufficiently understand what they supposed to be doing and have adequately developed skill to demonstrate it?}

Well my sifu from the other lineage had been doing it for 25 years, and he was a great guy, a gentleman and very respectful to people of other lineages. While I was training there I really enjoyed it. The approach was generally a soft one. When students did chi sao with him we found that with minimum effort he would somehow have his fist in front of our faces all the time. His reasons for not using forward pressure were:
1. Any force that you give your opponent is force that he can use and borrow
2. You don't want your opponent to know which way you want to go, W.C is deceptive
3. If you use forward pressure you are not relaxing
4. The softer the touch the more sensitive you can be

Of course my perception is now different to that which was impressed on me at my old Kwoon.


Okay, I think I follow your description okay (and rather like it). What I am missing, and based on our discussion thus far, is what you think the old instructor's flaw is or what you now perceive differently? If he put his hand in front of your face every time, yet hid his intention to do so .... I dunno .... sounds great to me!

Is it that you needed more pressure for your own learning rather than because of a flaw in his application? If so, this I can buy. Maybe there is some other reason I'm overlooking.



{BTW, you (and others) have mentioned this idea of "spring" several times. Can you elaborate on what you mean by that? E.g., the qualities and means of producing? [I could "guess" but don't like making too many assumptions, a more egregious hazard in a medium like this.]}

Spring'c'cIf you put your bong sau out had I hit it or try to push it will it take some force and then spring right back to the same position? If so you have spring. That'fs just a simple example. It can only be achieved if you are relaxed.

Okay and thanks again. I guess I have spring, just dicker quite a lot in my own mind over certain connotations of certain words. When I think of "spring" in my limbs, it "connotes" to me (rightly or wrongly ... it's just my own darn connotation) of applying some muscle resistance. So while I don't deny there is a "springing quality" I still have some slight resistance to the term. This is that funky area where tactile senses are needed to define just the right nuance of a word. :)

In any event, thanks for the conversation. Want that cigarette now?

Regards & thanks for the chat,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by Frank Exchange
I would just like to point out that the example I used when I hit someone without thinking about it was not accidental at all, that was the whole point of training LSJC. I was really pleased! :cool:

[Me too. Any sorrow feigned on my part was for benefit of my partner. :p ]



That brings me to my take on "spring". The way we train it is by concentrating on the feeling in the elbows, and totally relaxing the hands. So when we are rolling, the forwardness comes from having the correct structure and alignment of the arms, but then prying forward from the elbows rather than from the hands. This helps to associated the LSJC with the stance, as the driving unit (if you like) is closer to the body.


If I replace "prying" with something like "leaking" I like this just fine, and agree. [Sorry for my dang semantic antics. ;)]



So the forwardness is like a compressed spring which exherts a constant forward force. When two experienced people are rolling and using their LSJC, then their springiness is neutralised, absorbed more into the stance, but still each of them should be afraid to let go or let even the tiniest gap appear, because if so they will get hit immediately.


Works for me!



The problem with training this at the beginning is that the forward force is unfocused and unstructured, and is more like a muscular push.


Yes!! I think this may in large part hit on any (seemingly) minor difference in our training emphasis.



So we do lots of exercises where the LSJC is applied in rolling, then one person suddenly drops his hands, and we can see where the force of the other goes.


I do that too, especially when feeding the juniors, and have the plum blossoms on my chest to prove it.



A spring should go forward, but with beginners their arms tend to fly off to one side or downwards, which shows their structure was wrong, and the force was not being applied forward. As they get better, when the opponents hands are removed, the beginner hands start to shoot forward, and when they get a lot better, the hands hit automatically.


Yup.



The pinnacle is when not only do the hands shoot forward, but the whole body, so that the opponent is not just struck with the arms, but with the whole stance with the weight of the body behind it.


Agreed. I would only qualify with "if needed." Since we enjoy being very close, we are sometimes "already there" and with the body behind the strike without need of stepping.



We do a lot of training of this! Once you have it down, there are some benefits. You dont have to worry as much about kicks or knees or hooks, because you will always hit first. Of course, that is no good if you just tap the opponent, and his hook takes your head off, but because the LSJC is applied with the whole body, you move forward with each hit, which has the whole bodyweight behind it.


With caveat above noted, understood and agreed. My semantic penchant is to say "body structure" instead of "body weight" but you can call me picky and I won't feel bad.

The crux of Wing Chun is really in the body and horse IMHO. The hands are helpers. Yeah, okay, the mind plays a part, LOL.



I find it is an invaluable, fundamental part of WC. I particularly find when people visit from other schools that dont train it or place less emphasis on it, they are at an obvious disadvantage.


Agreed.



Well, there's my take on it, hope its of use :)


Works for me. Thanks.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by crimsonking
i believe WSL was once asked what the most important thing in chisao was, and he answered lut sao juk ching (sp, no ref materials to hand...) ie forward spring!

I have heard this before.

Similarly, my teacher has said of all our proverbs that this one and "But tom, but why" (Don't be greedy, don't be afraid) are the two most important for us, and that all our other sayings support these two.

(Others' mileage may vary of course.)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Frank Exchange]

CrimsonKing

I was curious as to where you train in the UK, as we seem to share similar concepts and ways of doing things?

KJ

Re: body weight vs body structure, yep, that is better. One can never be too pedantic. :)

I also am not entirely happy about "prying", as can implies almost a sideways leverage, trying to "open up" the opponents arms, which is not at all what it is about. If however, we think of prying as being nosy, inserting oneself forwards into someone else business, then it becomes a bit better. Thats really why I prefer "springy", but I see what you are getting at with "leaking".

[teazer]

Originally posted by YungChun
These shapes is often based on triangles....

You are asked to hold two doors closed (they open from the Center - in) while sitting in your horse with hands in Tan, Fook, Bong - whatever you like used to hold the doors shut.


To be precise, there are no triangles, only V shapes (unless you're some kind of mutant;) ) which is why the angle of the V determines how strong it is. If it were an actual triangle, the 3rd side would support pressure no matter what the angle.

Personally I'd be side onto it & use my shoulder. Or I'd wedge my foot under the door. Either way I can spend the evening watching the TV rather than looking at a door.

[kj]

Originally posted by Frank Exchange
If however, we think of prying as being nosy, inserting oneself forwards into someone else business, then it becomes a bit better.

Ha ha - good twist. I will likely have some constructive fun with the nosy notion.

Re "never too pedantic" ... one of life's great paradoxes. It seems the greater my accomplishment, the harder it becomes to tolerate even my own company, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by crimsonking
kj - again, seems like we're getting pretty close to agreement, but can i clarify - do you ever go heavy? do you really test the structure (eg bong collapsing against fook->punch) ?


The direct answer is "yes" we go heavy, sometimes very heavy. Especially for training purposes. If we never experienced pressure, I don't know how we would learn our various limits and increase capacity.

I remember vividly when I first started learning under Ken. The very first time he corrected me in chi sau rolling with a fellow student (my senior, and much my better) ... I couldn't believe the pressure! I remember trying to figure out where all the "soft" talk went, and I even asked him if he was sure that was right, LOL. It was a real eye-opener. There's a pool of sweat on the floor around me right now just thinking about it.

The key is that it requires a substantial enough horse, and the ability to align and root. I never could have sustained that kind of pressure by pushing back with my arms or shoulders, and at the time, couldn't take it for long because my horse was weak. "Jing tye Ging" (power of correct body position) and "Lik choong day hay" (strength is derived from the ground).

The caveat though, and why I hedge on the answer, is that learning how to utilize and optimize before that much pressure builds is, for me, a higher level skill. As Andrew mentioned earlier (sorry to keep abusing you, Andrew), pressure has advantages, but also poses vulnerabilities. Against a higher skilled opponent (or partner) it can my demise. And I always assume I am the smaller, weaker, and less skilled party, in order to minimize my vulnerabilities … even when it isn't true. Who knows, and why take chances. So my "preference" in application (all things being equal, which they never are) would be to respond properly at the "slightest suggestion" rather than wait for pressure to build.

I'm not saying I can always do that, just that I'd prefer to have that level of skill, and work toward it. Luckily, I also train to increase my capacity for handling and exerting pressure, which is mighty handy when things don't go my way.

Bottom line is, there is full range in my practice, and IMHO, for very good reasons. Some of my brethren may differ with my view on this. I can only speak from my own experience of course.

"Gong but nung gau, yau but nung sau": Hardness cannot be maintained, softness offers no protection.


again, when you pull your hands back with beginners, is the reaction continuous with no gap or delay, does the feel of their hands (pressure, intent, whatever) remain the same while you are pulling back?

"Loy lau her soong, lut sau jik choong" Retain it when it comes, deliver it when it goes. Charge forward when pressure is released.

Beginner Day One, Try One: hardly anyone gets it right.
Beginner after practice: Ouch! Once they get the hang of it, no longer just a beginner. ;)

As always, just loose change.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Kathy, good points. I've been thinking about this pressure thing. During training, don chi, lap sau, poon sau, I am told to apply elbow pressure into my partner, or to put more succintly, "zeem" my partner's centerline. If you partner has good structure, then a tremendous amount of pressure can be built. One of my sihings said it was a like a battle of the roots. Anyway, I initially had trouble resolving this with what I felt from Ken, or a few of my other sihings. Outside of the drills, pressure never builds to that level. You usually get whacked first. This was seemingly a paradox for me.

But I've noticed that my ability to absorb before getting uprooted has improved. Whereas before I would lose my root at the moment of contact, now I'm able to maintain my root longer before being uprooted. So this extra time that I've bought myself would allow me to match my opponent or change if I have to. So I guess the more I train myself to be able to absorb, the more time I have to deal with incoming energy before I get upset. I guess this seems obvious now, but it made a little clearer something that puzzled me in the past.

Sam Tam, an Eagle Claw, Yi Chuan, and Taiji guy said something to the effect of you must first develop your frame, and once you have done that you must throw it away. I've always wondered why you would throw away something you worked so hard for. And if you are going to throw it away anyway, why develop it in the first place? But I then I made the realization that the frame was there to help you develop sensitivity. Ideally, you don't want to let more than 4 ounces build on you before addressing the energy. But we aren't born with that ability. Initially, my sensitivy and reaction time may be so bad as to allow 10 lbs of pressure to build on me before I'm able to react correctly (or get upset). As my sensitivity improves and I gain more experience, I may be able to react before 5 lbs build on me. And as I get better yet, 1 lbs, and maybe after a long time, the magical 4 ounce limit may be attainable. But in the mean time, I will have to be able to absorb the 5 or 10 lbs without getting upset. If I get upset, then sensitivity isn't going to help me, and I'm not learning to develop anything. So I guess Sam Tam was right. You first build your frame, and after you have a solid frame, you can then start to learn to use your sensitivity to address the incoming energy rather than relying on your frame to absorb it. Here is where you begin to "throw your frame away."

No more paradox. =)

Forgive me if this is all seems obvious. =P

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[kj]

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
No more paradox. =)

I love those. :)


Forgive me if this is all seems obvious. =P

Everything seems obvious once you have it figured out. :D

Lots of great posts today, yours included.

Regards
- Kathy Jo

[Miles Teg]

KJ
Well from reading your discriptions of your kwoon, I would say your W.C is quite different from what I had been doing. The only thing that probably would be the same is weight distribution (100/0 right?). I know you guys like to have your elbows in, I was just wondering how far in? (e.g. tan sau in snt).

To answer your question:
{Okay, I think I follow your description okay (and rather like it). What I am missing, and based on our discussion thus far, is what you think the old instructor's flaw is or what you now perceive differently? If he put his hand in front of your face every time, yet hid his intention to do so .... I dunno .... sounds great to me!

Is it that you needed more pressure for your own learning rather than because of a flaw in his application? If so, this I can buy. Maybe there is some other reason I'm overlooking.}

Well, to be honest I havent touched hands with him since starting TST style W.C. I would like to put some questions to him and see what he would do in different sinarious, but somehow I dont think its appropriate since Ive already committed to another school. I can only really speak from my own experience and development.
I felt like I learned more in 3 months of my current W.C than I did from the old, and at the same time actually did less cause we always do the same things in my new one, e.g. SNT, dan chi sau, chisau, lop sau and a few others. In the old one we were always waiting tp learn something new from the sifu.

Actually if I stayed at the old one I would have started to learn chum kiu, now at my new kwoon they say it generally takes over 5 years before you learn chum kiu and that is fine with me.

In my old school we were taught SNT and then many different apllications for each move. At my new one we have to work it out for ourselves generally. Also the teacher taught us how we should focus our energy in SNT, and in no time at all I found SNT a very pleasurable experience when I got to a level where some of the moves in SNT would seem happen on there own e.g. my arms would seem to want to go in the direction they were supposed to go, a very cool feeling. I never got that feeling in my old kwoon and there was never any indication that other people had that feeling and that it was something I should aim for.

Other than that I can only tell you of instances where a senior of mine messed around with a senior from the old school and what he relayed to me.
With the softest of pressure this guy would try to move or redirect energy coming in. With the sligtest pressure on his tan it would instantly turn into a bong (there didnt seem to be much transition between the bong and the tan in the old kwoon, the tan went straight to bong and the opposite with no thought of what is inbetween, as far as I could see).
This person would find there was constant pressure on him no matter which way he turned or moved so he found himself on the back foot very often, generally moving backwards, and as you know once you start moving backwards you are in trouble and will have trouble getting rooted and issuing power.


Those some differences, actually I could go on forever on the subject of how they are different, but you probably get the picture.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Miles Teg

In my old school we were taught SNT and then many different apllications for each move. At my new one we have to work it out
......

, but you probably get the picture.

good post Miles, I get the picture :cool:

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by yylee


good post Miles, I get the picture :cool:


The Wall doesn't think about forward or backward or upward or....

But then if you press it hard it will press you back hard... LOL


As Damo said,
When the Heart/ mind is similar to the wall.
one can understand Dao.

IMHO,
When the Body is similar to the Wall.....
You go the pictures? :confused:

[yylee]

Originally posted by Hendrik



The Wall doesn't think about forward or backward or upward or....

But then if you press it hard it will press you back hard... LOL


As Damo said,
When the Heart/ mind is similar to the wall.
one can understand Dao.

IMHO,
When the Body is similar to the Wall.....
You go the pictures? :confused:

a basket ball doesn't press forward, but when you press it you know it has forward pressure. But that's just what you feel, the ball does not do a thing.

the picture is about not moving, but not moving gives birth to all moving!?!?.

My glasses must be getting thick....... :rolleyes:

My wife says talking to me is like talking to a wall sometimes :p

[yylee]

sometimes too much conscious effort is like pulling reverse gears, the harder one tries the harder one gets the point.....

sometimes when all these tan, bong, fook are forgotten, then, something more powerful happens. Because when one "thinks" about a Tan, the mind is abided by the Tan at that instance, the Tan may not fit well to the situation at that very moment.

I must go to bed now, otherwise I am going to sound like that Dreaming guy, LOL!

[kj]

Originally posted by Hendrik



The Wall doesn't think about forward or backward or upward or....

But then if you press it hard it will press you back hard... LOL


As Damo said,
When the Heart/ mind is similar to the wall.
one can understand Dao.

IMHO,
When the Body is similar to the Wall.....
You go the pictures? :confused:

I got the picture, and agree.

Regards,
- kj

[old jong]

Somebody mentionned not wanting the opponent to know the intentions as a reason why he is against forward ''pressure''!....

Well as Wing Chun practitioner,I can say that my intents are only to stike at the center of my opponent,nothing else!...My light forward pressure or intent (as you prefer) gives me a headstart in offense if I feel a gap in my opponent structure and...My opponent's light forward pressure gives him the same in defense.As Wing Chun's motions generaly are forward motions we, this way, don't have to overcome inertia in attacking or defending. The motion is always in gear if I can say so!...
;)
I hope this makes sense to you!;)

[S.Teebas]

Miles Teg writes:

Yes, but we don't try to hide our intentions of going forward.

Well for another point of view from someone of the same linage i say we do aim to hide our intentions. Somewhat one of the ideas of relaxation and initiation of movement from the centre of gravity. Usually the opponent isnt sensitive enough to feel the body movement attacking them till its too late, then their balance is gone.
A large percentage of schools ive seen practice with sensitivity reacting to the opponents arms, but few reacting to the body.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by S.Teebas


i say we do aim to hide our intentions. Somewhat one of the ideas of relaxation and initiation of movement from the centre of gravity. Usually the opponent isnt sensitive enough to feel the body movement attacking them till its too late


People doing Chi-Sao will invariably play, often the ego is a major factor here. That said, strict interpretation of the exercise as I have learned it include the following components:

1. Both partners should be trying to control/attack/fill (their part of ) the Centerline all the time.

2. Both players should use forward energy and correct structure to do #1.

3. Both partners use Luk Sao (Rolling - not too fast) to maximize control of the Centerline.

4. If both partners maintain sufficient control of the Centerline nothing should happen except rolling - perfect Chi-Sao.

5. An 'attack' (a technique) is the result of a defect in one of the partner's energy/structure.


6. A valid striking technique should have at least one single stroke follow up available (Fan Sao.)

So the attack, in a very real sense begins at number 1 above. The 'attack' begins when rolling begins. One may turn up the attack and use more energy. One may even use impure energy to gain an advantage but will sacrifice part of his structure or energy in so doing. This kind of artificial attack is nullified when playing with an advanced senior - where this kind of attack will either get you bruised up or airborne.

Ultimately, attack is a constant in Chi-Sao - it's more a matter of intensity. One can only ask if the attack is correct and pure or clumsy and artificial. Clumsy and artificial 'attacks' will often work (and confuse) your Si-Dai; while correct and pure 'attack' will keep your Si-Hings and Si-Dai's (and you) honest and promote good and effective training.

[Miles Teg]

S.Teebas
I think I see what you mean, and as your much further down the track than I am (WC years, not other) you have a better picture of the whole thing than I do.

PS You dont have any class mates that have moved to Japan by any chance have you? Otherwise have you heard of any TST people in Japan?
Im getting WC with drawl over here!

[YungChun]

Originally posted by kj
I always enjoy the water analogy.

Why only wrists? Why so far apart?

Can you be more precise as to what blows your mind in others' practice? Is it, as examples,


when there is no contact
when there is more contact (e.g., full forearm)
when there is intermittent contact
other?
[/list=a]

Re semantics: I've noted the following terms bandied about in this thread thus far:

[list]
pressure
intent/intentionality
force
forcefulness
energy
... others?


Regards,
- Kathy Jo


Hey kj,

Sorry, just realized I hadn't responded to you.



>>Why only wrists?

Wrists are the starting point for Luk Sao. The tools can equally share the line at the wrist - like two long 90 degree inverse triangles fitting together to form a long rectangle - that long rectangle entirely fills the Centerline, while each individual triangle (tool) occupies half the space of that area. Once the two triangles form a rectangle, moving them closer or further away distorts this 'filling' of the Centerline in terms of efficiency. Note that wrist to wrist represents a balanced starting point, which would change later if a defect in energy/structure exists.

A deviation of say 0.25 inches out of ideal position at the wrist will be enough room for a good player to gain complete control with. Likewise a deviation of more than say 15% of forward energy from one player would be enough 'error' to lose control of the line to a good partner.


>>Why so far apart?

Well for me wrist to wrist has my Tan Sao about 8-10 inches away from his chest - not far to me. The exercise is supposed to be training the horse to move as well as the hands. If we train at a distance where we are already in range to strike then how can the horse be trained to move? Is that a realistic distance? When you attack your opponent in a fight will you start from kissing distance or will you have to work to get there? Chi-Sao was designed to allow for the training of almost every attribute and technique in the system, all hand techniques, strikes, elbows and Sticking legs included - that is a fairly wide range, but it all fits in when starting at wrist to wrist range.

>Can you be more precise as to what blows your mind in others' >practice? Is it, as examples,

>>when there is no contact

With few exceptions (Jow Sao, ?) there would always be contact (using forward energy) in order to fill the Centerline.

>>when there is more contact (e.g., full forearm)

Not sure what this means. Full forearm in contact with what? I am not aware of any technique that has the full forearm in contact with anything.

>>when there is intermittent contact

There could be a temporary disengagement as in Jao Sao, Jao Da, Running Tan Da, but the key is that as soon as one leaves the line - Jao - one must return - Jip - to the line and go forward again with contact.

Note: Contact means either tool to tool (obstruction) or Tool to target (hit to Centerline).

[S.Teebas]

[/i]Miles:[/i]

You dont have any class mates that have moved to Japan by any chance have you? Otherwise have you heard of any TST people in Japan?

Sorry i havent heard of any going over there, ill let u know if i hear anything.

[kj]

Originally posted by crimsonking
kj - thanks for the reply, agreed, especially about going very heavy but relaxed, using strucure, alignment, root etc... anyhow, sorry to nitpick, but one thing you said left me slightly curious. you said 'especially for training purposes' - what do you mean by this?

Just a reiteration that applying pressure is not the ultimate goal, yet something that is necessary along the way for development. Since pressure does incur increasing vulnerability (something that can be used against me), sensitivity and responding "at the slightest suggestion" and before pressure builds is a higher goal, IMHO.

If things go well, one may never be called upon to rely on employing heavy pressure in an unfortunate "reality" encounter too early on, and one may be past need of relying on it at later stages of development. In such a case, it's utility would have been primarily for training.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by crimsonking
Also,
I much prefer the spring analogy to the saying - this makes it sound like 3 discrete steps - in my book its continuous, and this is very important. for instance the 'retain when it comes' - there is still forward pressure, even though 'retaining' - and this same forward pressure charges forward when the pressure is released - no sudden change between the 3 steps. I have experienced chisao with people who thought they understood lut sau jik choong - but only punched forward when they felt the pressure go. IMO wrong. always leaves a slight gap or delay, which someone springing correctly will always fill.

I follow you. I think there are lots of ways to misunderstand the sayings or their context; yours is a good example.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by crimsonking
again, i disagree somewhat ...

Cool with me. :) Besides, what fun would it be if we agreed 100% on everything? ;)

Thanks to you and the others for the thoughtful exchange.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo