It's been too long - a Bruce Lee thread [Archive]

fa_jing

10-01-2002, 12:31 PM

The question for today is: Is Bruce's philosophy of finding the best tools for yourself as an individual, still relavent in the days of UFC and MMA? It seems that we have gone past the need for a Bruce Lee - martial arts is already evolving in the direction of combining styles, rejection of forms, jumping in the water and swimming, daily reduction of techniques. Has modernization eliminated the need for a Tao of Jeet Kune Do? Should Bruce be recognized as the founder of MMA, or did he just have insight into what is now obvious?

norther practitioner

10-01-2002, 12:37 PM

Yeah, I have to agree, he was a good dancer.

err...wait, sorry. I think Bruce was one of the fathers of modern day martial arts training. His philosophy, while I don't think it was new, was def. a radicle one in many respects, esp. for the time.

Souljah

10-01-2002, 12:42 PM

I think It was an inevetable change, he just speeded things up.
His 'water' philosophy although borrowed, was a very radical concept for the time as has been said. By taking risks he helped mould MMA.

If you think about it 'finding tools for yourself as an individual' is what UFC fighters use, the most 'effective' moves to bring their opponents 'down'. Visions of MMA where shaped by MA rolemodels like bruce lee, helping make it popular in the US and the world. He helped 'shorten' the distance between hong kong and the US.

I think we need a 'Bruce lee' type of figure in the UK to help speed things up, especially kung fu wise as we are about 20 years behind the US in terms of facilities, and any positive role model would surely bring us closer to US standards.
(Bigger schools, Better training facilities due to more funding, etc)

MightyB

10-01-2002, 12:51 PM

Miyamoto Mus... I mean, Bruce Lee's philosophy definitely sparked today's modern MMA.

I read all of the John Little Bruce Lee re-writes and, from what I read, Bruce Lee was just expressing a thought. He didn't write that he wanted to create a style, so I would say that UFC/MMAers are the ultimate expression of Lee's philosophy of JKD.

I would say that if you perceive Lee's books as how-to manuals, then they would be outdated. If you read them as expressions of dynamic martial thought or as a practical philosophy in how to apply a given martial art, then they will never be outdated.

Ford Prefect

10-01-2002, 01:01 PM

He ends up being Luke's evil father, who then turns to the good side to save his son. I don't think he was Sammy Jenkins either.

yenhoi

10-01-2002, 01:25 PM

The Tao Of jeet Kune Do should be used as every real martial artists bible.

:eek:

My favorite line from The Dragon is "*****s can jump high huh!?"

**** funny.

I think Bruce Lees message was a more general message about self expression then it was about how to train your Martial Arts. He also died very young, which is very sad, because there is no doubt that he would have continued doing whatever it was exactly that he was doing, and made some more kool kung fu movies.

Leonidas

10-01-2002, 01:26 PM

People were practicing MMA long before Buce whether they knew it or not. He did start the tradition of studying fiddy different styles and mashing them together though, succesfully making a complete mess out of everything.

red5angel

10-01-2002, 01:36 PM

I think bruce lee was a sham. The only thing he did was make the philosophies of cma public. Any good martial artist knows that by leanring a traditional style you are taking shortcuts to getting better as a fighter. These styles have been developed over many centuries, some of them anyway and do you really believe that the people who developed them would plan for anyone learning them to become stagnant and not grow? Get real.
Bruce was angry because he couldnt learn what he wanted as fast as he wanted in wingchun. He couldnt beat WJM so he decided somehting must be wrong with everything but himself.

Ryu

10-01-2002, 01:52 PM

Bruce just called and told me to tell you guys to quit making such a big fuss over him.

Ryu

Ralek

10-01-2002, 02:18 PM

ummmm. Bruce Lee is not the father of modern MMA. Royce Gracie is the father of modern MMA. Royce did not create it but he is the reason that it is so popular now. Royce won the first UFC and the several after it. Rorian Gracie is the one who invented the UFC but he sold it to a company and the Gracies don't own the UFC anymore.

And the concept of mixing grappling and striking is not new. It was done all the way back in the time of Greeks with pankration wich is actually the closet thing to modern MMA that ever happened.

Bruce Lee was not a good fighter. He lost to some chinese guy named Jack. Jack was just some no-name ordinary kung fu guy. Bruce Lee also lost a fight and got a back injury from a fight with a no-name amatuer Muay thai fighter. He supposedly won some sreetfights but when two sucky people fight one has to win. I'm not saying that Bruce is sucky i'm just saying that someone has to win a fight. Winning a streetfight doesn't mean you good. It just means the person you beat was worse than you. Bruce made movies and wrote books and taught martial art classes. He's sort of like Chuck NOrris. Chuck Norris probalby is an "OK" fighter but would be cremated if he fought a UFC guy.Chuck has made his reputation on movies, not fights. Same thing with Bruce Lee.

Royce Gracie got his reputation from making movies too. But Royce's fights were not fake movie fights, they were real fights with ball grabbling legal and real bones breaking and people really goping unconsious. Look at Gracie Jiujitsu in Action series or the early UFC's.

I have more respect for Minotauro, or Randy Courture fighting skills than i do bruce lee. Mino and Couture actually fight people who are world class wrestlers, Strikers, ect. on a regular basis and win. Bruce lee got beat by no-name Wong Jack man.

Chang Style Novice

10-01-2002, 02:23 PM

This from a schmuck who wussed out on a test for a yellow belt.

To quote the great Ralph Wiggum "Hi Liar!"

Ralek

10-01-2002, 02:28 PM

This isn't to disrescpect Bruce Lee. This is to disrespect all the people who over inflate him as some kind of Martial arts master.

It sort of goes back to the argument of training with sparring or with forms.

The sparring person actually fights and developes his skill in the cauldron of actuall real blows being thrown trying to KO each other.

The forms person just simulates a fight and throws moves into the air or does drills and coreographed stuff with a partner who just stands there.

Similarly Bruce Lee didn't acutlly gain his reputation by fighting the world's best fighters and kicking a$$. He gained his reputation the "forms" way by making movies and simulating a perosn fighting world class fighters.

Name one fight that Bruce lee won. Against someone that was at least known a little bit.

Ralek

10-01-2002, 02:36 PM

Chang Style Novice. When i did shotokan karate i was only like 9 years old. And it was intense hardcore training. I had to run 1 mile becuase i put my hands in my pockets (didn't have a gi). I actually stuck to it for 2 years. I never tested because i was afraid i would fail. I wanted to be as good as possible before i tested. And i passed when i finally tested and got my yellow belt. I still remember the very first kata a little bit.

Even the one step sparring was scary. If you didn't block or get back you got hit. And the intructor had this bamboo stick and would hit the older people's legs if they weren't deep enough in a stance.

Although the training was hard the techs are still stupid. Now that i'm all grown up i see that deep stances and shet do not work in real fights. Sure you can make yourself feel extreme pain by doing forms till you drop and shet but that's just exercise, not fighting.

Basically shotokan is an "excersise" style. It's really good for exercise or something like that. But for fighting you don't want to be in a deep stance or chamber punches at your hip.

Chang Style Novice

10-01-2002, 02:40 PM

My memory is better than that, schmuck. It's one of the many advantages of not being a lying moron.

Ralek

10-01-2002, 02:41 PM

And every once and a while the instructor's intrucotr from japan would come. That was my favorite time becuase he couldn't speak english very well.

Ralek

10-01-2002, 02:44 PM

Please quote the quote.

I'm not lying. go ahead and quote anjytnign i said in the past.

I used to do shotokan karate. I did not "wuss out" of the yellow belt test. I purposly didn't test for a long time becuase i was afraid i would fail. So i purposly stayed a white belt becuase i was afraid to test. I was only 9 years old. The idea of a test really scared me.

Ryu

10-01-2002, 02:45 PM

Ralek, Chuck Norris was the heavyweight kickboxing champion during the late 60's and 70's, and is a brown belt (I believe) under the Machados. He has studied Machado jiu-jitsu for a long time now.

Bruce trained with many of the biggest names of that times including Gene Lebell, Chuck Norriss, Mike Stone, and Joe Lewis. I have pics of Bruce in a judogi practicing harai goshi, various newaza, etc. During his later years he was really getting interested in ground grappling.

Bruce spent most of his time sparring. In fact he was very adament about combining martial arts with heavy sparring and gear.

All in all though, you know this. :D Which is what makes you so funny.

Ryu

Souljah

10-01-2002, 02:47 PM

As i stated before, I feel bruce lee just speeded up something that was going to happen by popularising his style and 'freestyle' fighting in the west, he just made a break through with his films.
HE IS NOT THE FATHER OF MMA, but nor is he some1 who just sat back while kung fu and many MA's got 'big' in the west, he had abit to do with it i think. He had the cinema side of it while the 'Kung FU' TV series did alot of the other work as far as bringing Kung fu over went.
(which bruce was asked to play the lead in, but as you know declined)

Of course you had many westerners who studied CMA already but those on TV brought it to a wider audience literally all over the world, which must have inspired alot of people to get into it or just try it.
Broadening the horizons of MMA but NOT creating it

Chang Style Novice

10-01-2002, 03:13 PM

Of course it is impossible to link to your posts from the old board, Schmuck, but you said you were going to test for Shotokan yellow belt but never did because you were too afraid.

Go back to Bovine University, where you belong.

edit -

anybody want to take over here? I'm bored with the punching bag, time to work on something else.

Liokault

10-01-2002, 03:33 PM

Am i the only guy here who never liked Bruce Lee films?

HuangKaiVun

10-01-2002, 03:34 PM

Nope.

I am not crazy about them either, though I really admire Lee's contributions.

Too much revenge. Too much killing.

Souljah

10-01-2002, 03:42 PM

Ifeel similar to HuangKaiVun, Didnt like the ideas in his films , hey i didnt even like his attitude, but the guy did alot for the westernisation of kung fu (whether you consider that a good or bad thing)

@PLUGO

10-01-2002, 06:18 PM

I'll always remember him best for KATO

Lice

10-01-2002, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by Souljah
He had the cinema side of it while the 'Kung FU' TV series did alot of the other work as far as bringing Kung fu over went.
(which bruce was asked to play the lead in, but as you know declined)

It was my understanding that he was supposed to get it, he wanted it, but the TV studio didn't feel the west was ready for an Asian TV star.

But, I don't speak with any authority on the matter, so I could be wrong.

LEGEND

10-01-2002, 06:48 PM

SOULJAH...where are u getting your facts??? LOL...BRUCE LEE wanted to be the star in KUNG FU...but the producers chose DAVY CARADINE cause they wanted a whity presence. **** the haters!

TaoBoy

10-01-2002, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by Liokault
Am i the only guy here who never liked Bruce Lee films?

I could never stomach those stupid noises he always made. However, I do respect his contribution to the martial arts world and own two of his books - both excellent.

Ralek

10-01-2002, 07:50 PM

LOL. When people discuss Bruce Lee all they can discuss are his movies and his epic quest in the film industry.

When people discuss Royce Gracie they talk about his fights. Royce has come through when every one said he would fail. Everyone was sure that royce would be creamed by Dan Severn, an olympic wrestler who had an 80 pound wieght advantage. And during the fight it lasted a long time. So long that the payperview time slot was up and people didn't get to see the end of the fight. I watched it on video tape. At around 15 minutes Royce put Severn in a triangle and Severn tapped. It was so dramatic. I got up out of my chair and started dancing and screaming. That is the only time a fight has ever been so dramatic that i jump up out of my chair. Thank you Royce for all those fights in the UFC and the challenge matches you video taped.

Royce is not invincible. he has been beaten. In fact Royce got beat by Rickson Gracie in under 30 seconds and he also lost to Sakuraba in 1 hour 30 minutes when he hurt his leg he had to give up. And he lost to Wallid Ismael in a BJJ tournament. But the thing is that these are fights. Not movies. So the very fact that Royce is fighting and building his reputation on fights makes him 1000 times more credible than bruce lee in my mind.

All hail Royce Gracie, father of the UFC, Pride, and every MMA tournamnet now in exsistance. And every BJJ school in the USA. And royce said "let there be light" and then there was light. then on the 7th UFC Royce rested, exhasted from what he had created.

old jong

10-01-2002, 07:59 PM

Now,you consider him as a god!...From now on,you will not be able to do what you usually do while watching your Gracie tapes!....It is not right to spank the monkey in front of god!....:eek: :rolleyes:Show a little respect .

Ralek

10-01-2002, 08:21 PM

Actually, according to historical documents Royce Gracie rested on the 6th UFC but i'm not a seventh day adventist so i hold my Royce Gracie memorials on Sundays, not Saturday.

old jong

10-01-2002, 08:21 PM

ICH NI SAN SHI GO ROKU SHICHI HACHI KYU JYU... :rolleyes:

Ralek

10-01-2002, 08:28 PM

i'm not japanese expert. I just spell stuff the way it sounds. But i dont' know japanese. I'm just a wannabe japanese speaker.

Some day i will to japan for my special training. There is no other arcade like the japanese arcade. If you think streetfighter 2 turbo is good you havn't seen anythign. Only in japan can you find the elite in fighting training video games and I will go and challenge their top gamers anjd train. Street fighter 2 turbo prepared me for Shaolin TIger but i will need much more for my next fight.

old jong

10-01-2002, 08:35 PM

I always thought that a guy with such a big mouth could only be a PAC MAN expert!...

Don't spank the monkey in front of your god!

Chang Style Novice

10-01-2002, 08:52 PM

Ralek - you do know that you're getting real close to being a stalker, right?

I mean, it used to be funny and pathetic. Now it's just creepy. See a mental health care professional. I know I've been needling you a lot lately, but I'm being serious now. You need help.

Ralek

10-01-2002, 08:59 PM

What are you talking about. I've been a stalker for years.

vingtsunstudent

10-01-2002, 09:06 PM

''Some day i will to japan for my special training. There is no other arcade like the japanese arcade. If you think streetfighter 2 turbo is good you havn't seen anythign. Only in japan can you find the elite in fighting training video games and I will go and challenge their top gamers anjd train. Street fighter 2 turbo prepared me for Shaolin TIger but i will need much more for my next fight.''
really, it just doesn't get better than that.
i now know that one day you will be famous, for what i'm not sure but i do have some ideas, i would tell you but i can't afford my computer to blow up again.
it will take a long time on your paper run though to be able to afford to go to japan though won't it?
vts

Chang Style Novice

10-01-2002, 09:06 PM

Do the Gracies know about you? Have you been served with restraining orders? It seems to me you're still joking about this, but I'm being serious. Your fixation is extremely unhealthy, and potentially very dangerous. You could end up in jail.

TaoBoy

10-01-2002, 09:08 PM

Aw c'mon Ralek...stop it man...my sides are sore from laughter. :D

Braden

10-01-2002, 09:13 PM

I didn't like his movies.

I don't think his thoughts regarding cross-training were novel.

I don't think he exhibited physically any of the "like water" philosophy he espoused verbally.

He was a good dancer though, and an important figure in the history of martial arts for how he affected their relationships with pop culture.

Ryu

10-02-2002, 12:38 AM

The bad thing though Ralek, is that no one cares that Royce fights... Bruce wanted to put Asians on a high level in American film. He wanted to break stereotypes, etc. Show that Asian heroes are just as good as anyone else. You don't really do that in the Octagon, because not many people watch it. Everyone watches movies....

Bruce's life wasn't about fighting :confused: Who realistically thinks that? Bruce's life was about establishing roles for Asians, and showing ..... well Asian pride in a way. That was his agenda... not fighting. I seriously think he could have cared less about competing or fighting in the streets..... who watches that?
Small groups of people.

Ryu

Souljah

10-02-2002, 04:52 AM

In reply to Legend and Lice on the second page -

My 'facts' come from no1 less than david chow, who helped with the fight choreography for Kung fu and has written various books on Chin na and Kung fu philosophies.

OK although it is true that Caladine was chosen for his white skin, I read from a few sources that Bruce was offered the part before but he didnt see it taking him where he wanted (he'd be wrong subsequently) so he didnt take it, now it could be that bruce also knew that TV wasnt ready for a programme star who wasnt white....
These are just bits of info from kung fu sources, David Chow being the nearest to the 'action' and I would consider his info most reliable..... now im sure youre facts come from much higher ground.....right?

fa_jing

10-02-2002, 09:03 AM

I'm throwing down the guantlet here. Bruce Lee, in his prime would beat Royce Gracie. He'd kick him in the head before Royce took three steps, and there'd be a KO fast. Bruce was really a dirty fighter and he would just impose his will on Roycie-boy.

However, I think Bruce would get creamed by Dan Severn, Mark Coleman or any of those big wrestler types. Because he wouldn't be able to knock them out with just a couple shots. Then they'd grab him and it would be all over.

Lice

10-02-2002, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by Souljah
These are just bits of info from kung fu sources, David Chow being the nearest to the 'action' and I would consider his info most reliable..... now im sure youre facts come from much higher ground.....right?

Umm.. I specifically said that I didn't *know*, and that I didn't speak with any authority on the matter and that I could very well be wrong. So don't be an ass.

Edit: Reading back, I realized you were probably speaking specifically to Legend, but you did lump me in there, now didn't you?

Ralek

10-02-2002, 01:43 PM

fajing. Bruce Lee couldn't even beat Jack the no-name kung fu guy.

Royce Gracie choked out Dan Severn. And in the early UFC's dirty techniuqes were allowed. In the tournmanet that Royce beat Dan Severn one guy got pucnhed in the balls 4 or 5 times in a row. Then royce beat they guy who won by punching the balls. And in Royces challenge matches he has truly No rules. In the Gracie in Action series you have eyegouges and ball grabs. A guy tries to grab Rorion Gracie's balls. Rorioan is an old man and you see him take out kung fu fighters using BJJ.

Royce Gracie beat a Shaolin Monk who had been training continously for 15 years. Royce just trriangled his a$$ then swept him over into a mounted triangle then just pucnched his face in. It was really funny. The shaolin Guy was supposedly undefeated or something then heh lost to little skinny Royce. There were no rules.

Royce has beaten Ken Shamrock in UFC #1. Shamrock had a 50 pound wieght advantage. Shamrock has KO'd quite a few people and the fight happend while shamrock was in his prime and The #1 ranked shootfighter in japan. Royce choked him out dispite the fact Shamrock was 50 pound wieght advantage and KO monster.

Souljah

10-02-2002, 01:45 PM

ass?

Just put you in there cos you mentioned the same thing, there is no :p :p going on here so im sorry you took it that way m8 (its hard to express in text i guess). didnt mean it like that :D :D
jus stating my views here. Im not here to start unneeded arguements like alot of people on here

fa_jing

10-02-2002, 02:17 PM

Bruce fought Jack before he was really good or cross-trained. As long as your going off of video, look at some of Bruce's movies. He kicked as fast as people punch. You can't stop such a fast kicker. Butt-scooting wouldn't work because Bruce would just jump up and land on the guy's chest like in Enter the Dragon and then Royce would be dead and there would be no Gracie pride ever again. Royce would definitely duck the fight with Bruce Lee, so it's a good thing Bruce Lee's already dead - for the Gracies.

"Bruce would Kick Royce in the Head" -me

fa_jing

10-02-2002, 02:20 PM

just because fighter A can beat fighter B, and fighter C can beat fighter A, does not mean fighter C can beat fighter B. It's all about matchups. Royce beat Severn, Bruce Lee could not beat Severn, but Bruce Lee would defeat Royce fast and knock him out.

"Bruce would Kick Royce in the Head" -me

Ralek

10-02-2002, 06:03 PM

Now there you go. When you talk about Bruce you have to use the word "would" win. When you talk about Royce you use the word "did" win.

Discussing how Bruce Lee fights is all theoretical speculation becuase he never really fought anyone.

Discussing Royces fights is not theorectical becuase your discussing fights that actually happended and are on video tape. And Royce has fought many many challenge matches that are not on the Gracie in action series

LEGEND

10-02-2002, 06:17 PM

SOULJAH...my facts come from several sources...one from STEVE MCQUEEN...Linda Lee and James Coburn in VIDEO documentary...look it up in CURSE OF THE DRAGON documentary and the A and E special on BRUCE LEE. They stated BRUCE LEE was extremely disappointed to the point of tears! WHY??? Cause it was his BRAIN CHILD! Plus he was BROKE as hell and they had 2 kids. Plus he wasn't getting acting roles anywhere else. Lucky for him RAYMOND CHOW gave him a HOLLER and cast him in THAILAND in the BIG BOSS. And then another pic deal afterwards...
U can also read various interviews by TED WONG, DANNY INSONATO and other JKD ex students...Bruce wanted the US market badly. He just got DISSED. Also it was well documented in various mags( people etc... ) that BRUCE LEE was shunned from KUNG FU cause they felt an actual asian person couldn't carry a TV series or movies.

Ralek

10-02-2002, 06:27 PM

I just want to say again: This is not against Bruce Lee. My posts are against his fans who say he is a revolutionary fighter or something. Even I could beat Bruce Lee if i went back in time to fight him. I can beat Jack the kung fu guy too.

LEGEND

10-02-2002, 06:38 PM

Ralek...if u were able to take BRUCE down...then prob. yes...since u have SOME( ? ) ground skillz...but in a STANDUP fight...good luck. There are guys that vouch for his standup fighting ability...JOE LEWIS, Benny the Jet etc...

MightyB

10-03-2002, 05:50 AM

Ralek is my hero.

I am playing more video games now. Maybe someday I can learn from Ralek.

Must learn to spwek an spel in Bizarro eNgwish first.

MightyB

10-03-2002, 09:11 AM

The father of MMA is Wong Long.

Over 350 years ago, Wong Long created Praying Mantis Kung Fu by combining the best moves from over 17 styles of kung fu with his philosophy of combat. Praying Mantis kung fu is the first and therefore the ultimate MMA.

Chang Style Novice

10-03-2002, 09:14 AM

Um, sorry to burst your bubble, but ultimate means last, not first.:D

MightyB

10-03-2002, 09:16 AM

Mantis is still growing, and has the biggest base of knowledge.

Mantis is growing (and I'm Trolling) ;)

Shaolindynasty

10-03-2002, 09:16 AM

Bruce did ground fighting to. He trained with gene lebell. If you look at the John little book "jeet kune do" you will see some notes from judo and jujitsu in there.

Bruce is the father of MMA in it's modern incarnation. The idea of MMA is old though.

Chang Style Novice

10-03-2002, 09:20 AM

Well, for any art to be living, the practitioners and masters must try new things and adapt to whatever comes their way. I dunno nothing about mantis, really, but just from what my teacher does at our very small school, I'd have to say tai chi is growing and adapting. If that makes it an MMA, then I guess it's an MMA.

MightyB

10-03-2002, 09:25 AM

"Well, for any art to be living, the practitioners and masters must try new things and adapt to whatever comes their way. I dunno nothing about mantis, really, but just from what my teacher does at our very small school, I'd have to say tai chi is growing and adapting. If that makes it an MMA, then I guess it's an MMA."

Mantis has that adapting mindset. Always has. Heck, Wong Long created it because he couldn't defeat his Sihing using traditional methods. For years, Mantis was taught as an advanced level of kung fu that was meant for students who had already mastered other forms of kung fu.

CD Lee

10-03-2002, 09:57 AM

Bruce would easily destroy Royce or Rickson if they fought. Did you watch his movies Ralek? He is so fast. You say Royce 'would' beat Bruce, but Bruce did Kung Fu movies, and Royce only does GJJ. Have you seen how awesome Bruce is in the movies? Royce would not expect movie type moves, because he has fought too many MMA guys, and would lose.

You know who else would easily beat Royce? The Terminator in Terminator 1.