ATTN COUNT: What did you think?

[Ray Pina]

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[count]

Your teacher and your group were excellent hosts. I enjoyed my time there very much and learned a lot. In fact my whole time in New York was enlightening.

What happened to you on Sunday? How come you didn't come by for the workshop?

Thank your teacher again for me and tell him to come and visit us here in CA. Next time lunch is on us.

[Ray Pina]

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[Carl M]

Hey Count:

Thanks for coming! Actually, The Boss showed the tip of the iceberg. You've never seen his his xingyi or his e-chuan. Scary - he'd get right in virtually at will. Too bad there wasn't enough time to see his other stuff. His e-chuan (a strong pagua & xingyi foundation is required before you can go there) is amazing stuff: the advantages of size (within reason) and reach (within reason) are nullified.
His 2-handed saber, staff, and short stick are just as intelligent. Totally different approach and mindset from the others (can't say more - it's proprietary to the school).
Hope to see you again.

- Carl Moy :)

PS - Evolutionfist is progressing nicely; he has gotten better over the last 2 weeks; can't land any punches on him. Give him another 4 months and we'll see where he goes. Now that the weather is getting cooler (sort of), we're using body armor and gloves more.

[Ray Pina]

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[count]

Hey EF,

Sorry to hear about your girlfriend. I know how hard that can be. Don't take it out by punishing your classmates with the gloves on though.;)

Carl,

I'm sure of what you say. I'd like to hear more about your teachers weapons and especially long pole. What makes his approach different?

[Ray Pina]

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[Carl M]

Well, Count, we really can't give out proprietary information concerning The Boss's approach to weapons. Let's just say that the geometry is different from everyone else's, and his application of the physics involved has never been done by anyone alive (can't ever say nobody thought of it before our time, as lots of techniques have been lost over the ages).
A couple of students who took up competitive fencing in high school, and who did very well, got even better. One student came in 2nd in some NYC high school championship by using 2 of our more primitive techniques - the clockwise and counterclockwise spiral. He came in 2nd because he didn't know how to deal with the riposte (bouncing parry & immediate thrusting follow-up). He must not have been paying attention in class, as nobody can bounce our swords away.

[count]

Originally posted by Carl M
Well, Count, we really can't give out proprietary information concerning The Boss's approach to weapons. Let's just say that the geometry is different from everyone else's, and his application of the physics involved has never been done by anyone alive (can't ever say nobody thought of it before our time, as lots of techniques have been lost over the ages).

Please, elaborate? It's hard for me to accept there are any secrets any more. Is it about stategy or is it about training? I agree some teachers have a way of explaining things to make people understand quicker. Would you say he explains things in terms of his engineering background or from something else? Is this the kind of stuff that will be covered in the Miao Dao workshops?

[Crimson Phoenix]

Okie, okie, I feel a little controversial guys, don't jump on me...
I know there are incredible teachers out there, whose skills awe students and opponents alike...
BUT...two stuff you said made my virtual ears bleed:

"nobody can bounce our swords away"...you sure? Nobody is a big word...a word so big that even legends of the past wouldn't pronounce it...you never know, as the chinese say "there's a sky above the sky, and a talent above the talent". And even if your style may have killer concepts, you, yourself, as a human being, are never sure that something will work all the time, or fail all the time...risk 0 DOESN'T exist.

"proprietary things never done by anyone alive"...a similarly big certainty...how do you know? Do you know each and every techniques and concepts of each and every styles, to be so sure they do not appear anywhere else? Including the stuffs that are not shown to anyone outside a particular style/school/pai?

It's not an attack, even if it may seem so...I just would like to see a little more circonspection in martial artists nowadays...

[Ray Pina]

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[count]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist

On another, you do not know my master and what he has done. My master's humbeleness has allowed other teachers who fear his technique to get the spotlight. My master put up $20,000 for anyone to beat him in pushhands 20! years ago. He used to spend his time in the park to meat any challengers, some who post here know this. Never beaten! In fact, he was kindly asked if he could stop, because he was hurting fellow teacher's business. The question became, who was the best -- besides him. Japan, Taiwan, China, you name it, they have come and they still continue to come.
Before this gets out of hand, I'm trying to have a dicussion with Carl that doesn't involve all this sifu worship or unrealistic claims. But I have to ask, Is that $20,000 still available?




Someone vagualy hinted that those who did not particpate at the tournament should feel a sense of shame. Bull $hit! I don't throw on my college football gear and run onto a Peewee league field.

Likewise, I do not intend this to be a counter attack. But my God, with all the talk here I was expecting to see some high-level martial arts. I would have torn through those competitors BEFORE learning what I'm currently studying.

I think I should remind you that you left before the advanced division fought. Also there were some pretty solid fighters who went before. It's easy to make claims like that from your armchair.



I understand. Who was it, Jesus? "Blessed are those that believe and have not seen."

Like I said, let's keep this a realistic discussion. A good teacher will always tell you he is a man like you and if he can do it, so can you. I know that's what my teacher says and even though I am not an expert at biblical teachings, I believe that is what christ said too.

Carl,

If we can get back to our discussion now...?

[Crimson Phoenix]

Ray, thanks for the reply, and for getting the spirit of my post...

I do understand that Master Bond Chan is an impressive man, worthy of admiration and fear alike (admiration and fear being two faces of the same coin to me).
You want to know a little story? ****, I hope she's not going to jump on me for this.
I have been conversating with Cherry for a while now, and known her for a while too...I was there when her need for martial arts arose again, and I like to believe I played a part in it even though she naturally belongs to the breed of warriors. She used to tell me about how bagua was interesting her, how she felt it was what she wanted to do. And guess what? If my memory serves me right, I remember dropping Mr Bond's name, after reading your posts. I knew nothing about NYC martially-wise, yet you managed to make His name a mental magnet for martial schools in NYC. She found it herself, but I seem to remember that I mentionned Mr Chan's name to her prior to that, thanks to your posts.
This is to say that I do not doubt your teacher's value, and am aware of it: Cherry is there 99,99% thanks to her dedication and flair, but the 0,01% remaining might be me.

What I want to say is that when I read Wang Xiang Zhai saying that "there are at least 3 men he cannot beat" or that xingyi's Guo Yun Shen said of bagua's Cheng Ting Hua "his techniques were superb, like a divine dragon playing through the clouds", I realize one thing: even legends of the MA find other legends to match them. No master ever said they were unmatched...all the most famous masters would recognize other masters as their equals at least. Not to mention that they are "experts in the shadow", with an incredible level, who just do not seek any attention and manage to erase all accounts of their doings (yes, they are that smart and efficient...you cannot reach such a level of MA without being efficient in everything else in life...truly superior men). It's not just empty talk, I know of one (in Japan).

The world is a vast place...much bigger than NYC or the USA...or Europe...or China...we don't know of everyone and we never will. Experts of his level are rare to say the least. So it's all the more a good reason to stay humble and realize that the MA mountain does not have a single top. I myself have witnessed crazy stuffs, like a friend of mine (1,90m, 120 kgs of power) being rocked by a tiny, 80 (yes 80!)-year old xingyi expert in Shanghai with a pacemaker. And believe me, this friend knows what MA and fights are about. He was rocked properly, not by surprise or by underestimating his task, no. Who knows what runs in the world? I don't...but I have good hints that some people can do crazy stuffs (by crazy I mean "something you would have sworn wasn't possible") out there.
That's why I keep humble...you never know...Don't think I'm attacking your school or doubting its value (see my little story above), but it's just my humble view (ie: the view of someone and his limited personal experience) on such matters in general. It is my whole philosophy in fights now (read my sig): before, I used to be sure of some things. And some certainties hurt bad when they break...now, there are still things that I believe, but I'm more like "well...let's see when the moment comes, if I am right or wrong"...in other words if someone tells me "this works all the time", I go..."sure, it's possible"....ad if someone tells me that "no, it won't work with that" I just go..."sure, it's possible"...

On a side note, it's great to have a teacher like Mr Chan passing on his skills and knowledge, it's a treasure indeed. Too many have died in the past taking their mastery with them...a true loss...

As for the tournament and MA...well, yes indeed it's quite unfair to scorn people who were not there...
And as far as high level MA go, well, you know as well if not better than me that when the fight is on, things get much more messy than you would have thought in the comfort of your training hall, however hardcore you train...

PS: I will gladly and with great awe and respect stop by the next time I have the chance to spend time in the crazy-sexy-cool city of NYC. Man I love this place, I just don't know when I'll go back there (last time was like...9 years ago).

[blacktaoist]

EvolutionFist what's the deal with you man? I was not going to hit this Thread because I know your Sifu. But I have to say, way are you are talking out your ass this time. And I don't even think your Sifu would like what you are posting.



Someone vagualy hinted that those who did not particpate at the tournament should feel a sense of shame. Bull $hit! I don't throw on my college football gear and run onto a Peewee league field.

Did not you come up to me, and tell me, your sifu would not let you fight, because you was not ready, so you claim. Anybody can make claims or talk about how good they are, but the bottom line is, the truth will come out when a individual steps in the ring. And all you had to do is step in the ring , even the peewee league would have gave you a fight in my opinion.



Likewise, I do not intend this to be a counter attack. But my God, with all the talk here I was expecting to see some high-level martial arts. I would have torn through those competitors BEFORE learning what I'm currently studying.

What competitors are you talking about? I had a few students that was fighting in the peewee league as you claim, that will be willing to crosshands with you, and if thats to easy for you, I have a lot of advanced students that will crosshands with you also. Your kung fu brother Eight, know where I train at, all you have to do is ask him to take you to where my training area is at uptown.

Lets not forget A few months ago I came down to your school, to crosshands with you, at the time you claim your skill was not that good, now you are posting on KFO like you have develop great martial skill within just a few months, that you be able to go through competitors very easy at the bagua event.

. I can still come down to your school if you like. I like to see you go through me with this great BaGua method you are learning. I feel you need to cool out with all this talk about your sifu is the best. I have respect for your teacher, because he is a real fighter. But he not the best in New York City, if he was I would be learning from the man.

There are many good Kung fu fighters in New York City, that are teaching martial arts to other martial artists.

let's keep this a realistic discussion, I was at your teacher workshop, What did I see? Well what I saw was just your teacher doing a lot of intercept and simultaneously counterstriking techniques on count, Good $hit, but nothing I have not seen before. He has a lot of fist techniques, i didn't see and palm techniques at all. In my opinion your sifu BaGua method is mostly fist techniques, but this can be, because of his Hsing Yi boxing background. Like I said good $hit, but nothing unusual.




I hope by know my series attitude towards martial arts has come across by my post here. There is no accident that I drive all the way to Chinatown to train where I do. On the way, I pass Moy Yatt's WC place, Frank Yee's Hung Gar, my old teacher's (nameless) S. Mantis place, Gracie Schools, a few well known Kali schools, TKD, countless karate, wrestling, boxing, fencing, you name it -- this is NYC!

You make a lot of claims EvolutionFist, I know a few of the top people in Frank Yee's Hung Gar, and I know for a fact these guys get down when it comes to fighting. As a matter of fact I know many good martial artist that are just as good as your teacher. These techers are: Ralph Mitchell, V.A. Thomas, Greg Zilb, Sharif Bey, Pedro Cepero. George Crayton jr, Julio Perez, these are just a few of the kung fu teachers I know, that are good fighters, and have good fighters that they have trained, I can honestly say from my own experience dealing with them.

You may have drive pass all these martial art schools, so you claim, but you never crosshands with me yet. I crosshands with one of your Kung Fu brothers , why don't you ask him what his experience was like. What I teach is not what your teacher is teaching, but the best way for you to find out is you come on down and see for yourself. The bottom line is you need to kill the Bull$hit about your teacher is the best on the the planet. Like I said I have respect for your teacher, but I'm going to keep $hit real when it comes to the martial arts, you need to learn how to do the same.

Peace out.
Lao Qiang

[blacktaoist]

The more I think about what you write in your posts. The more I see you don't know your sifu that well. Why do you think your sifu came to the Bagua tournament in the first place. Your sifu only been to two Tournaments in his life, Master Li Tai and my tournment.

Its Called respect."

[Ray Pina]

It was a pleasure meeting you, I'm glad we got that out of the way.

My comment was not directed towards you, because you were not a competitor. In fact, I saw you doing a little thing here and there and thought you moved well. I believe you would have cleared up in there as well.

I would just like to say the following before leaving here for good:


1) I told you the truth: My master does not want me fighting out until I can represent his Way. I am not there yet. But I honestly feel I would have done quite well at that event.

2) You have seen what you were SHOWN. Read all the posts you have made here. Now, if you were my master, what would you show yourself?

3) You are a Ba Gua sifu, so I commend you for that because I know the time and effort that must have gone into that. How long have you trained Ba Gua? I am now approaching my two year mark (February). A little more time and I will obtain that information from my training brother.

4) For the record, I did not say a bad thing about any of those schools. I erased my posts because I don't want to be involved with this talk drama. I'm training to win! I'm embaressed with myself for being drawn into this.

5) Lastly I have never said anthing against you. We've disagreed over methodolgy in the past, but I don't know anyhting about you other then you promote yourself very well. When we do meet up again, know that I have no personal feelings toward you.

No need to reply because I won't be back to check.

Ray Pina

Crimson Phoeinix, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I try to keep an open mind in all things. No technique or style is perfect, my master says that all the time. Sorry if I painted a different picture. My point, as stated: from MY experince (notice the MY I always include), I'm training with the best.

Funny, thing is. When I read other people's posts, especially in the WC formum where people speak highly of their teachers, I say I'm happy for them, that they found a great teacher, what they are looking for. I don't tell them they are wrong. Why? Because I have no doubts about who I am training with.

Peace to all.

[blacktaoist]

1) I told you the truth: My master does not want me fighting out until I can represent his Way. I am not there yet. But I honestly feel I would have done quite well at that event.

Bottom line is , if you are not there yet, then way the hell are you talking like you are? Why post like you are a high level fighter, Yet you say you are not. Man you need to take a look at the real side of martial arts, at the sametime take a look at all your post, Any body reading your posts, would think you are a very skilled martial art fighter.

The bottom line is, if you honestly think you could have did so well at the event, the ring was open for you or anybody that day that wanted to test their level of BaGua skills. And there was BaGua competitors in the ring ready for you, all you had to do is step in the ring, simple not complicated at all. $hit Count and a few others from KFO did it, Why not you., and some of these guys don't even live in New York. But You do!

Bottom line, people love to talk a good game, But when when you face a opponent you don't know, what you learn in class may not work on the next man, no matter how Great your Teacher is you are learning from. When you are on the streets or even in a tournament fighting, its about YOU" Not your Teacher." You represent your understand of utilizing BaGua in sparring, this have nothing to do with your Teacher fighting skills, only your own."



2) You have seen what you were SHOWN. Read all the posts you have made here. Now, if you were my master, what would you show yourself?

Its not about me being a master , Because I'm not . But If I give a workshop I'm going to show people Bagua $hit that will make them think? Like I said Your teacher show some good freestyle combat applications. He mostly demonstrate on count, and the techniques he perform was alright, I 've seen better even if thats what we were SHOWN."

After all its not about showing yourself, its about showing people that came to see him, so why hold back knowledge from others that want to learn, hey thats not my style.

Like I said my motto is keeping $hit real, and because of my philosophy people are going to like me or hate me. But the bottom line is I'm going to tell you the truth. The real deal."



3) You are a Ba Gua sifu, so I commend you for that because I know the time and effort that must have gone into that. How long have you trained Ba Gua? I am now approaching my two year mark (February). A little more time and I will obtain that information from my training brother and pay you a visit.


I 'm a BaGuaZhang practitioner, like many others in the world. I don't claim to be a master, or sifu. But I have people that call themself my students. I teach uptown manhattan, you can pay me a vist anytime you like, you can test me out , or any of the people I train, they be more then willing. Mostly thats all these guys like to do is spar.



No need to reply because I won't be back to check.

So you claim. Maybe not as EvolutionFist. But if you do come back on KFO, Keep $hit real!!

Peace Out
Lao Qiang

[Leonidas]

So your instructor has 2 handed saber and flying dragon? staff classes now Evo-Fist?

I know of Kenjutsu school and a couple Classical Europen Fencing schools(not sport fencing). I was always looking for someone who taught chinese weapons separate from the empty hand forms so you dont have to commit to a style just to learn how to use them.

Do you have to learn the empty hand styles before you can take the class?

[Carl M]

To Leonidas:

Thank you for your interest! Weapons can be learned separately from the empty hands curriculum. In the old days, we had weapons classes in conjunction with the hand-to-hand courses. Obviously, the classes were extremely long. In the early 1990's, some classes ran to 1:00 AM on Fridays. Over time, some of the guys got married and this was not going to work. This is why separate classes - solely on weapons such as the 2-handed saber and the long tapered pole - were started.
As a final aside, another classmate and I attended seminars on Western European swordsmanship and observed a class in Spanish sword fencing taught by a very gracious teacher. Each time, we walked away with respect for other systems, met interesting people, and made friends. While each group is proud of his particular system (and rightly so -each worked hard in learning his respective system), we all shared a common love for swordsmanship; none of us engaged in that "our system is better than yours" silliness. The important thing is to study hard and work hard at whatever school you are at, listen to your teacher, and work on the basics.
As always, it's nice to hear from another sword enthusiast. Cheers!

- Carl

[Carl M]

Count:
Again, please allow me to say again what a pleasure it was to meet you. While we're from different schools, we share the same enthusiasm for this stuff. Further, it was a big deal for you to take some time out of your busy life to be at our school, especially since it was Sunday and you had to be back to work on the Left Coast the following day. Your visit was deeply appreciated!
After meeting you, I also know that you have a sly sense of humor! Too bad you don't live in the NYC area so we can hang out and slam down some beers.
To respond to some of your posts (I can't get to all of them because I have to get back to work), I must first apologize for my poorly written replies. What I meant was that there was simply not enough time that Sunday to show all of what pagua has to offer. Who can condense an entire system into a lecture of a few hours' duration? The next thing is that I do not expect anyone to publish his school's particular methodology on the net. First, no written article can match a hands-on "show and tell" lecture. Second, it would be unfair to ask anyone to bare his system to the general public (teaching it to his class is a different story).
On that note, I have to get back to work. I'll be busy the next few weeks and I won't be able to view this Forum for a while.
Wishing you the best.
- Carl M

[cherrypraxis]

Jeff:

Since Ray will be absent from the forums until further notice, I was designated by Master Chan to reply to one of your questions and to address some concerns.

Don't feel bad. Just yesterday, my teacher said that you're not bad for someone from the "outside". Otherwise, he would not have bothered crossing hands with you as much as he did in the two occasions that he saw you.

About the $20,000 reward that he offered 20+ years ago--his intention was not to challenge anyone but to look for a tai chi sifu. Unfortunately, he did not find anyone that matched his criteria; instead, he learned from many other masters since that time.

At the moment, the $20,000 reward is null and void. If anything, considering his level now, he should be given $20,000!

I hope this clarifies any misunderstanding.


Sincerely,

Cherry Lou Sy

[Waidan]

"Outsider"? Outside of what, the tri-state area?

This thread is good times. Carry on.

[Carl M]

Of course Count is an outsider; he's outside of Manhattan!

Note: New Yorkers tend to think of the other 4 boroughs as "the outer boroughs".... Just kidding!

Count's a cool guy with a good sense of humor. If you've heard even half the stories he told us about his wild & crazy days...Too bad the man lives on the Left Coast; he would've been a fine addition to more fun-loving members here.

[count]

We're all outsiders here in Southern Cali, Waiden, hence your previous location tag which I just noticed has changed. You should pay us a visit up here sometime.;)

Cherry and Carl,

What's up, thanks for the replies. I realize EF won't be posting for a while but my questions were mainly for you guys anyway. That $20,000 thingy caught my eye though, epsecially since I know a few Tai Chi instructors who love to push hands anytime and would eat that up. :p Actually, i have no questions other than curiosities and interests. My questions were mainly about training and strategy and not about anyones personalities in the first place. Maybe EF mis-understood or took personal something I said to some other posters on this forum.

Since I have your attention, and Cherry has been designated representative, I have one specific question for your teacher. While I was there he gave me some insight into root and internal training to develop root. What he showed was stationary. I wonder how the training and usage translates to moving. Could you ask for more training methods or tips. If he just shows and says nothing that can be put into words, I'll understand, but if he can say something, please pass it along.:cool: