Hong Sing Clf of Fatsan - Aniversary

[kai men]

Hi people, here Horacio Di Renzo from Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Just to let you know that some members of this forum are already in Fatsan China . They have gathered in the 15 anniversary of Cheung Hung Sing's Choylifat.
I will post some details soon. Take Care
Horacio

Long Live Traditional Kung Fu!!

[Bessho]

Hi Horacio, Sounds great. Looking forward to teh details.

[extrajoseph]

I trust you mean 150 and not 15 anniversary.
Joseph.

[yik-wah-tik]

yes, i am back. actually i am in korea as i write this waiting for my flight back to san francisco.
i am so bored, i have a 7 hour lay over here. fortunately this airport has the internet to keep me from going crazy.

anyways, the celebration was a total success. members from buk sing and hung sing and even a few chan family members showed up. the argentina school as well as my hung sing kwoon with the fut san hsk has been featured on the front page of the fut san daily newspaper and the guangzhou newspaper.

i got to meet master poon sing, chia yan soon, all the buk sing kwoon sifu's especially kong hing. wow, nice man! we all performed on a very famous stage in fut san and even master lai hung performed with us.

this celebration was an unbelievable event. although it was stupid hot there, i had so much fun. the fut san women are so beautiful and so nice. my classmate has decided to move to fut san and teach english there, and i might as well. it depends.

for those of the hung sing branch, please make a trip to the fut san hung sing kwoon. it has been remodeled, and is so beautiful. it is also like a small museum there.

well have to go and look at the sexy korean stuardesses here, man they are fine!!!!!!!!

your favorite one to hate,

frank

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[fiercest tiger]

sounds like you had a great time but is it possible you can post some pics of the kwoon up of futsan hsclf?

thanks :)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[yik-wah-tik]

i will try. if i don't sifu horacio from argentina i am sure will.

man, what an experience! so many well known sifu's, choy lee fut everywhere, and the fut san hsk is so beautiful. i am a changed man. fut san had a great affect on me. the life style there is so different, and the streets are so clean!!!!!

if i cannot post the pictures here, pls keep checking our website at hungsing.com soon for them. we will put them up there for sure.

we were on t.v. made the front page, radio, the celebration was so incredible. my sifu, me, and my classmate were very blessed to be included in the bi-si ceremony blessing of the hsk. the pictures i have are amazing.

for the first time, i am speechless, and cannot express my true feelings. although i only spent one week there, i will miss fut san greatly. i am still sitting in the korea airport and as i am remembering my trip, i have tears in my eyes, i wish i didn't have to leave.

but oh my god, my classmate bought a metal cane in fut san and thought it was only a cane. i even checked it out and thought the same. we got it throught the guanghou airport, but the korean security and police hunted us down in the airport and asked us to return with them where there were hella cops and security waiting for us. we were a little upset about this but unaware of why. then they took apart the cane and man,there was the biggest dagger i have ever seen hidden within the cane.

i mean i am not naive, i checked the cane myself, but couldn't find a trace of a dagger but when the police pulled it apart, oh my god we almost went to jail. lucky we were americans.......

as i said, i am speechless about my trip, a little jetlagged still waiting to go back to san fran, but will try to share me experiences there with anyone willing to listen. it was incredible.

many photo's were taken!

almost ready to fly now, be back tomorrow

frank

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[JAZA]

Sounds pretty good, I hope someday to visit China.

[alecM]

Dam I'm so full of envy just reading this.

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

[yik-wah-tik]

alec,

forgive me for being a little cautious, but you know the responses i get around here, but i am not sure if you are being sarcastic or what?

let me know.

frank :confused:

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[Shaolin36]

I thought the Hong Sing branch opened in 1839, thats a litlle more than 15 and 150yrs.

Also I thought the Hung Sing denounced Chan ngo Sing(sp) years ago in the chan village.

Please correct me if Im wrong.

[yik-wah-tik]

there does seem to be 2 dates which hung sing people believe to be the real date. hong kong, singapore, and some others believe that the hung sing kwoon was originally opened in 1839. to lean that way but there is the fut san kwoon who believe the school was opened in 1851. i asked the elders in fut san, and they are bound to the government. so openly they cannot talk about some things.

i originally leaned towards the 1839 because it made more sense. but then information like sets being created called "ping kuen, chung kuen, gok gee, all referring to the tai ping rebellion. the rebellion wasn't until the late 40's or early 50's (i have jet lag so i am a little hazy today-forgive me)so when we heard that chan yiu chi had changed the birthdate of chan heung back by ten tears, it made more sense to me then because the tai ping rebellion was around 1850.

personally if the correct date is 1851, then i believe that may be the date when chan ngau sing re-opened the studio after jeong yim's death.

the dates are a little mixed up, but that's not the important thing. even though i believe in our history, it is who we are today, and what we are doing with our choy lee fut.

i have never heard that chan ngau sing was ever banished or whatever from a chan village. he was a hung ga student before hung sing, and had a very bad temper. in hong kong he stayed with my great great great si-gung master yuen hai in and got into a fight while being drunk and beat up two police officers, then fled back to fut san. chan ngau sing was a notorious fighter. it is said that he was eventually killed by police.

i am not sure of this though.

if you have some info on chan sing and this ousting of him from the chan village, pls share that with me.

thanks,
fran

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[yik-wah-tik]

man, jaza you have to go to china! although the smog is horrible and everything is kinda grey, it is still beautiful. they people there are so friendly. the streets are spotless. there is no crime.

then you have the kung fu. the new fut san hung sing kwoon is beautiful. they have hung sing kwoons all over fut san from the jr. high schools, to the upper classes. hung sing is all over fut san.

then you have guangzhou, hong kong, kaiping, sun wui, and the rest, it is a choy lee fut paradise.
i encourage all clf students to visit china for a once in a lifetime experience. but this 150 year anniversary was incredible.

the sifu's in fut san hung sing are tough teachers, and the climate is a killer. practicing in 90 degree weather at night, is a trip.

the fut san hung sing kwoon is like a small museum and studio mixed in as one. it is an original hung sing kwoon from back in the days, just remodeled.
lots of history on the walls, and such.

man, if you can make it there by next year, i will go back with you. just let me know.

fran :D

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[Shaolin36]

Thanks Yik,

I will do some inquiring within. I will let you know if I get anymore info. Thanks for your input.

Shaolin36

[alecM]

No sarcasm intended just genuine green eyed jealousy.

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

[extrajoseph]

How did Chan Yiu-Chi change the birthday of his grandfather Chan Heung back by 10 years? How did he do it and what were the dates? Most Chinese have a Gar Po (Family Tree Book) that sets out the birth and death dates of their ancestors clearly. It is not something you can just change and make up at will.

Do you know the birthday of Cheung Yim? When was he born? At what age did he studied with Chan Heung and at what age he went to Futshan to teach? When and how did he die? If you want to find out more about Cheung Yim, you should make a trip to King Mui as well, he was born nearby.

You said you met Kong Hing in Futshan, did you asked him if he knows of Chen Yong-Fa and that he did scolded him for making false claims?

You also said you are a changed man since China, in what way? No offence is indented, I am just curious.

My teachers may have passed away but I am a still CLF man just like your self, even though I am in my 60s now I still practice everyday. I hope after your China trip that you can see we are all brothers and sisters from the same background and lineage. No one disputes the fact that Cheung Yim made a great contribution to the development of CLF but we must also accept that the Chan family played an important role as well. History should bind us together and not to tear us apart.

Joseph

[iron_silk]

how come there is no picture of jeong yim?

[alecM]

yik-wah-tik your reference to the Tai Ping rebellion has me intrigued. Although the official versions by historians and academics state that the rebellion was a Protestant Christian uprising instigated by the Haka schoolmaster Hong Xiuquan (Hung Hsiu-Ch'ijan).
However as oral tradition with in CLF has always said that CLF practitioners as well as other anti ching groups took part in the rebellion hoping to over throw the Ching. You also said that the forms ping kuen, chung kuen, gok gee,have some thing to do with the rebellion. I know I am only guessing and I am probably wrong could ping kuen's full name could be tai ping kuen (great heavenly fist and not level fist), however I don't the others, so how do they tie in.

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

[yik-wah-tik]

at the end of your posting you said the history should bind us together. well i agree, but when we tell our story many chan family members disagree.

just because we don't tell the chan heung version of the history of choy lee fut, our version will be added to the great and illustrious history of our choy lee fut system. remember there are 3 families and all three families stories should be told. no one family should say the other is wrong. because we have the history of our lineage as it was passed down. professor lau bun came to america and i am sure he never read that novel. but he has passed the exact same history down as all the hung sing kwoons around the world share. there is too much of a linkage between the stories within the hung sing branches that have never met each other. for one, i have never read that novel, but our story will be told over and over again until the chan family stops trying to cover it up.

i for one have never made any comments to chan heungs version of clf, only the history. but if you have seen real hung sing clf and chan family as well as buk sing, there are major differences within each style.

so to all, please stop trying to cover up our story and just let us tell it. if we get out of hand, then we should be spoken to. the chan family is not all there is to choy lee fut. we still have the hung sing and buk sing families to complete the system. without hung sing and buk sing choy lee fut is not complete. it is this compilation of the 3 families that has made choy lee fut what it is today, not the chan family.

fran :)

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[yik-wah-tik]

we have all wondered why there is no picture of jeong yim. there is a picture of his successor chan ngau sing, but jeong yim was killed at age 33 in an ambush.

but just because there is no picture of him, that does not mean he does not exist. and that also goes the same for monk ching cho.


no one can dispute the contributions of jeong hung sing. even in the book yuen kay say wing chun they mention jeong hung sing as one of the most famous southern fighters of his time.

frank

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[yik-wah-tik]

as far as i know there were supposed to be 8 original sets created by chan heung and jeong hung sing. now remember clf was created as a fast learning system so the fighters had to learn quickly. in my opinion, sets were not created at the original conception due to lack of time.

during the tai ping rebellion 8 sets were created to represent the conection to the rebellion......
tai, ping (ping kuen) tien, gok (gok gee) cheung (cheung kuen), on, mon (mon jerng), nien.

gok gee is a set believed to have been long forgotten. my sifu admitted to knowing the set, but since it didn't come from professor lau bun he basically gave it back.

if you have a siu ping kuen, we must have a tai ping kuen. but through out the years, some of these sets have been forgotten.

i am still researching these sets though,along with its relativity to the rebellion.

do you have any of the old books on the hung mun?

i have 2, and they are really interesting reading.

frank

;)

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[extrajoseph]

I am not trying to cover up anything. On the contrary, I want it to be laid out in the open. How many times do I have to say that I do not speak for the Chen Family. I speak for myself, so please do not try to say that the Chen family is trying to discredit the history of CLF as seen by you, I am talking as an individual person, not as a representative of any branch or family.

There may be many differences between Great Victory Hung Sing and Heroic Victory Hung Sing, but they are only stylistic variations with a distinct CLF flavour. We should concern ourselves with the similarities more than the differences. The tank is half full not half empty!

Joseph

[extrajoseph]

Coming back to your claim that Chan yiu-Chi changed his grandfather's birthday by 10 years, if you ever have the chance to visit the King Mui Village, Chan Heung's grave has a headstone that sets out clearly his birth and death dates. It would be an insult to say that the grandson would dare to change the date on the gravestone just to suit whatever you have in mind, wouldn't you say?

What about Kong Hing, do you still believe that he scolded Chen Yong -Fa? Did you ask him in Futshan?

You may believe in something but your belief alone would not make it true, if it is not true. Otherwise, I could easily believe that you are full of **** and that makes you are full of ****.

Frank, What I am trying to say is that just because I believe you are full of ****, it doesn't meant you are full of ****, we have to come close to you to smell you before we can say definitely whether you are full of **** or not. Do you get what I mean?

So if you are going to make any more claims or tell stories about people, please back them up with facts, will you?

Joseph

[extrajoseph]

If you want to be an expert in Chinese history, go and study some elementary Chinese first, please!

"Siu" in Siu Ping Kuen and "Tai" in Tai Ping Kuen are not a couple of pairing words. Siu (Small) goes with Dai (Big) and not Tai (Great). "Tai" has an extra dot in its character compare to "Dai".

The rebellion was called Tai Ping Rebellion, but the CLF form is called Dai Ping Kuen. There is subtle difference to someone who knows the language.

Stop making things up, will you.

Joseph

[alecM]

Frank
No I don't have any books on the Hung Mun as it s difficult to get specialist history books even in the UK general Chinese history yes special subjects no. I have often wondered about the connection between the Hung Sing and the Hung Mun or if they was also a possible connection with the Red bout opera's

Joseph
You can't really get the meaning of the names of most kung fu forms by literally translating the chinese characters you some times have to look behind them. Lets face it if any CLF practitioner ever wrote down the characters for Tai Ping they would be very quickly executed by the Ching government. I mean why is Moi Fa called Moi Fa and Bak Mo called Bak Mo, have you ever seen a plum blossom fight and Bak Mo is often translated as white hair referring to old man. However most versions of Bak Mo that I have come across are so physically demanding that even young fit men have difficulty doing this form.

PS just because some thing is not written down does not mean it could not have happened .

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

[extrajoseph]

If people like Frank care to study a little about the Chines language and culture then the questions you asked would not be too difficult to answer. Moi fa is a flower, therefore its name does not refer to how a plum blossom fights but it refers to the pattern of movement and the lightnes of movement when moi fa scatters in the wind. Many of the CLF forms have moi fa preface for that reason - pattern and quality for the form. Bak Mo refers to the golden hair orangatang, a very precious and agile creature treasured by the Chinese. Bak Mo when done properly, its movement is a bit like monkey boxing without the exaggeration. In China names are usually given for a reason, they don't just make them up randomly.

I agree with you that when something is not wriiten down then it may still exists. However, it is not usually the case with history, especially recent history. 200 years is not a long time, we can check the history of CLF very easily if we bother to ask.

The problem with Frank is that he only looks from the view point of his own history. He has not bother to check out the facts with other sources. He pretend he know the Chinese language yet he can not tell the difference between two simple characters. He makes outrageous clamis but can not or does not bother to back them up with facts.

He just keep pouring the **** out hoping some of them will stick. Sadly, by the look of things, some of them did stick.

Joseph

[alecM]

I know now that you under stand that we have to look to the meanings behind the written Chinese characters and not the literal translation. However Bak Mo cannot refer to the Orangatang as golden hair surly, the Chinese character white and the character for gold or golden are not the same. In addition, they do not even have a similar pronunciation.

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

[extrajoseph]

Have you ever heard of the term "Bak Gum" or white gold in Chinese? Have you ever seen a blond dacing in the morning light? To look behind the meaning of a word you have to use your imagination. Let us not dwell too much on this right now, we are side stepping the real issue here. Good try.

Joseph

[Shaolin36]

Joseph,y-w-t and Ironsilk-
Im not nearly an expert, but looking for some enlightenment here.
Tarm Sarm was known to be a great fighter. From my understanding he only taught 3 forms for the Buk Sing CLF, he did not even spend much time with weapons- I heard. He was more interested in his fist fighting techniques. From what Im getting off this board is that he was the 1st and only Buk Sing CLF propagator of his generation. I am aware of the reasoning behind the name and the lineage. Can any of you share anything more about T.S. -did he rally only teach 3 forms and no weapons. Why is there no pictures of him? I have painted portraits but no photographs.-Too old, no camereas back then? Please share any info on the Buk Sing you can.

Thank you,

Shaolin36

[alecM]

Joseph
I think you are using artistic licence as well as imagination LOL.
Shaolin36
Have look at this story about Tam Sam on my website there is also a picture of Tam Sam there. http://alecmorris.topcities.com/baksing.htm

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

[Shaolin36]

AlecM,
Can you email me that picture that is extractable
That is the first actual phot I have seen. Do you have any more photos of him?

Shaolin36

[yik-wah-tik]

for and indept history of master tam sam go to
buksing.com and check out master vince lacey's website. that is an incredible webpage, with lots of information on the buk sing branch.

buksing.com

frank

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[iron_silk]

Hey i checked out the website (Alec's) and my the story sound very cool! I am truly interested.

but kind of too bad he never learned the internal aspects of Hung Sing CLF since the internal arts is a higher level of fighting.

BUT that aside, does anyone know if Buk Sing CLF have internal forms now?

[yik-wah-tik]

if the buk sing has an internal form, it may be of the buk sil lum part of his lineage. even the cheung kuen form vince lacey teaches is from wu shu.

but check out buksing.com

frank

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[alecM]

I have to agree with yik-wah-tik if you want more in-depth info on Tam Sam and Bak Sing you have to go to the Bak Sing sites.

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

[alecM]

I have a question on CLF history. I in my surfing around the net I have come across various versions of the CLF origin. All state that Chan Heung learned from Chan Yeun Wu, Lee Yau San and Choy Fook. All versions agree with this no problem there. One version states that Chan Heung went to learn from Choy Fook with a letter introduction from Lee Yau San and that Lee Yau San knew Choy Fook from the Shaolin temple. Another version states that both Lee Yau San and Choy Fook went to seek Choy Fook and become his desiples. However my schools version says that Chan Heung went seek Choy Fook neither with Lee Yau San or a letter of introduction. which one is corect.

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

[yik-wah-tik]

alec,

i have come across the same thing as you have. i have also heard that the rock chan heung kicked was actually a rice or powder grinder and not a rock.

what's funny to me is that chan kin man is a chan family member of clf, but his all his books talk about monk ching cho and jeong yim.

there are varying stories even from chan won hon.

frank

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[alecM]

That confuses me also.

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

[alecM]

The reason for the CLF history question is that according to Chen Yong Fa's version or translation Lee Yau San and Chan Heung both went to seek Choy Fook. But according to a translation by Chan Yiu Wun (fellow clans and a student of Chan Yiu Chi from king mui) from an old kung fu magazine Chan Heung was sent to Choy Fook with a letter of recommendation by Lee Yau San.

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.