A REAL "real street situation" [Archive]

anerlich

10-02-2002, 04:10 PM

Described by a student in our latest school newsletter:

On a Sunday Afternoon, a friend & I were walking into the back of Darling Harbour near the Powerhouse Museum, when we were approached by about 10-12 teenagers asking us for some spare change. I sensed that something wasn't right & replied to them with a "No, sorry mate, I haven't got any" and continued to walk away. Then the guy that all the other's were following yelled out "Don't F***ing lie to me & empty your pockets now!" I could see my mate starting to reach into his pockets so I grabbed him & kept walking. Then they came after us & started pushing and grabbing us while we still tried to walk away. One of the guys demanded my watch and when I refused again he came running at me throwing punches then another guy started to hit me too ( he was the one giving orders to the others). I stepped back & started to use the defensive style "fence/guard" that Sifu teaches us to use in street style combat. By that stage I had more guys trying to attack me & around 4 grabbed my friend and began hitting into him.
At first I threw a bad punch & then took hold of the situation & continued to fight with Wing Chun style blocks and more boxing style punches that I have been taught. I continued fighting & I was punched, kicked & jump kicked to the back of the head while still trying to defend myself. I eventually found who I thought was the leader of the group & started hitting into him for a while until he was on the ground holding his head, then I continued fighting off the others.

My mate had already made his way to the middle of the road bleeding from the mouth & nose and other marks from the beating he took.

All the time this was happening people across the road were watching or continued to walk away including the security guard's at the museum & not one of them tried to help us or do anything. We asked a couple of adults if it was alright if we walked with them for a bit as we thought that walking with adults would prevent anything else happening, however they refused. We finally went over to the Security guards at the Museum & they were laughing & congratulated us on beating them & how the others walked away worse off & didn't take any off our belongings. When I turned back to see if the group had gone I saw some of them limping off holding their head & arms.

I had no idea that put in the situation of a group attack how I would defend myself but I am pleased to say that everything I have been learning at Wing Chun worked in a street combat situation, leaving me unharmed and in possession of belongings.

How would you have dealt with this situation? Any sensible comments?

yuanfen

10-02-2002, 04:38 PM

I am glad the student made effective use of what he had learned.
Shameful that the security guards did nothing.
This kind of thing can happen in some places in the US specially some select urban areas-but somehow I thought Australia was a more gentle place.
Things change, I know.

TkdWarrior

10-02-2002, 04:56 PM

hmm australia is sure safest place in the world at this moment(read that in newspaper, NZ is third safest)
anyways getting back to post...
first thing it's good that the person used his style to save himself..
in those kind of situation there r some things which can be done...
1. never stay put
2. hit, hit hard, hit fast and make sure it connects :p
3. demobilise ur oppnt.(this can be no 2 if u r **** good)
3a. u can even get hold one of attacker and throw on another to save time for urself..
4. follow 1 - 3 untill u r done...

or 1a. Run

then remember the consequences... they might come up again to take revenge and this time they'll be much prepared...well that doesn't mean that u hav to always be fearful of that...but u can't ignore it...

-TkdWarrior-

couch

10-02-2002, 05:08 PM

Phone the security guard company to thank the rent-a-cops for all their help.

anerlich

10-02-2002, 05:32 PM

I had the enormous misfortune to do some IT work for a couple of security companies. They both went into administration owing my boss and me a couple hundred grand. Many are run by crooks and morons and employ their own kind. I know a couple of guys who are highly professional (one is my si-hing), but they are far from the norm.

That said, a security guard is not a cop. He's paid to protect or control access to a particular venue, not to intervene in fights on public property. Most of them get paid peanuts (due to the general low standard of employee) and risking a trip to hospital or an assault/GBH rap for award wage is arguably stupid.

That said, I think it's pretty poor that neither they nor anybody else tried to help these guys or break up the fight. I'd be calling their employer to complain as well, though their employer is unlikely to give a stuff as long as their bills get paid.

Australia is pretty safe. But we've had our share of recent outback abduction/murder (Peter Falconio), a teenage gang sentenced for long periods (up to 50(?) years) for a series of apparently racially motivated pack rapes, serial killers (Snowtown), a woman who stabbed her defacto in traffic on an expressway and drive-by shootings. While we don't have the American gun culture and shooting statistics and the same sort of problems with crack cocaine, large cities in Oz have the same problems as in any other country.

BTW, don't jump to the conclusion I'm anti-gun from the above. But it is a lot harder to legally own, let alone carry, a gun for self defense here than it is in a lot of other places.

burnsypoo

10-03-2002, 01:51 PM

yea,with those haircuts I'd be tempted to throw a punch or two at them myself.

S.Teebas

10-03-2002, 03:06 PM

Hey Red,

This guy isnt WT, and i believe the story becasue i got jumped around that same area a few years back by a group of 10 or so teenagers...wouldnt be surprised if its the same group!

tparkerkfo

10-03-2002, 03:51 PM

Whoa, this was an interesting post until the last couple. red5angel, that comment seemed a little odd. Knowing Andrew a little, it aint WT. But it don't matter. I hope to see red5angel when and if he makes it out to SF to meet Ken.

Andrew,

You asked how I would deal with this situation. Well, let me relay a little bit of recent news here in the states. A couple days ago a guy was walking down the street, not sure which city, and had an egg thrown at him. So the guy went back and accosted the kids. The kids ranged in age with the youngest around 10. Not sure the oldest, but I think it was around 16 or so, no one too old. The man was about 25-30 or so. The kids got mad and ended up getting several more friends. Now this is were it gets a bit creepy. They chased the guy down the road while collecting weapons such as bats, tree limbs, rakes, a milk crate, etc. The guy runs upto a house banging on the door asking for help. He enters the house. The kids break into the house by knocking the door open and crawling through windows. They dragged the guy outside and beat him. He died. Luckily most of the kids were caught and many will be tried as adults. True Story that happend this week.

I would now take a gang of kids much more serious than before. Cant really answer what I would do, but I would imagine I would do something similar. Were the guys accosted grown adults or young adults?
________
BLOWJOB SEX (http://www.****tube.com/categories/13/blowjob/videos/1)

anerlich

10-03-2002, 07:42 PM

red5angel,

No, we are not WT. As TWC, we are not exactly Emin fans.

This was two average guys who got set upon by a mob. They didn't claim to lay waste to the entire group, They just managed to survive without *serious* injury, which should be seen as a plus. I didn't put it up as an example of the invincibility of my system or as proof that it was better than Carl's or anyone else's. It was an event that actually occured that I thought we might get a serious discussion going on.

Tom, welcome aboard.

anerlich

10-03-2002, 11:23 PM

Tom, the guy who wrote the story is in his early 20's.

I find it incredible that anyone seeing this post can construe it as me promoting my system, let alone trying to turn into a count of streetfights won.

I think the story shows that nobody "wins" a street encounter. Winning can hurt nearly as bad as losing. The guy fellt his training gave him some edge and tools to survive. I would hope most people would take that as some sort of solace that what they are doing is worthwhile, whoever their teacher and whatever their lineage.

I'ts interesting and somewhat disappointing to see who did a "me too!" on r5a's brainf*rt.

Unfortunately young males do hunt in packs. A group of young guys terrorised young girls in Western Sydney recently, enticing them into cars or grabbing them off the street and then driving away to pack rape them repeatedly. They got pretty heavy sentences, between 10 and 50 years.

Cashier Graham

10-04-2002, 05:00 AM

anerlichs friend obviously got a good beating but as I read somewhere today it's wrong to fight but to lose a fight over principles you deem honourable is worse and anerlichs friend didn't lose he stuck it out everyone walked away worse for wear but walking.
One incident that happened to one of my sisters friends(not a MA) as he was walking trough a park with his girlfriend two lads and lassies came up causing trouble. The girls started purshing his girlfriend around and he was trying to break it up when he got hit by one of the lads he turned to retaliate when one of the girls cracked him over the head with a bottle. He got up after a bit trying to get to his girlfriend who continued to take abuse he managed to grab her a pull her underneath him where he stayed taking his and her beating until they left. Not a nice story but what impressed me is he didn't try to fight he had one goal to protect his girlfriend no matter what and I consider that a big victory in a small defeat.
It's always weird to hear of stories where people are in distress but nobody helps when they come across the scene, but this is apparently normal human behavour people notice that no-one else is helping so they follow suit, I guess as a MA we're told to use our skills to help the weak so if we were to come across a situation of that nature we'd would have to force ourselves to rise above our instincts and jump in there and take a few bruises for a total stranger.

10-04-2002, 06:43 AM

Cashier, you make some good points. You remind me that winning a battle and winning a war are not always one and the same.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

reneritchie

10-04-2002, 07:41 AM

Anerlich - glad your classmate survived, that's always the important thing.

red5angle - stop trolling

RR

glenn richards

10-04-2002, 07:56 AM

i am very much a lurker but having read red5's comment about a legitimate and frightening encounter ( i live in the area and can vouch for the problems there) it never ceases to amaze me how truly stupid people some people can be.
regards
ghr

Sandman2[Wing Chun]

10-04-2002, 12:22 PM

Personally, I consider myself pretty lucky. The few "real life" encounters I've had were never with more than two individuals at once. Even with the skills I have, the idea of having to deal with a larger group of opponents is frightening, and I would certainly flee if at all possible.

As such, and since you brought this up to us, how does your school train to deal with such encounters, Anerlich? Everyone else? Any specific scenarios/drills/etc.. that you use?

old jong

10-04-2002, 12:45 PM

The most scary thing in a fight like that is the fatigue factor anybody is sure to encounter after a few minutes of adrenaline rush.
Even if you can beat a few ones fast,the remaining ones will take advantage of your loss of energy.

Matrix

10-04-2002, 05:16 PM

Old Jong,

Certainly a good point. An important point in anerlich's story is when the guy went after the leader. I think that taking the leader out quickly would be important when you're such a situation. Most of the others are just followers, and will lose their appetite for fighting when the alpha male goes down.

Unfortunately r5a's comments have been deleted. I would have liked to have seen them.

I found the details of anerlich's story to be balanced and well presented. No bravado about "kickin' some punk's a$$", but a hard hitting description of survival in a dangerous world. It only looks cool in the movies.

Matrix

anerlich

10-04-2002, 09:21 PM

Sandy,

On considering this, first thing I'd do is read "Strong on Defense" and remind myself that the goals in a defense situation are ESCAPE and SURVIVAL, not victory.

One option the guys had was to give up their stuff, one that Strong would recommend. Not exactly heroism, but an option which might have avoided violence. But that IMHO is more for the lone armed robber, rather than the gang of testosterone charged males. Assuming they would have just said OK, thanks and just left the two guys alone, is hardly a given. They may have seen their submission as weakness and decided to punish them for it, got enraged if they didn't have "enough" valuables, who knows.

Best thing to do is ... RUN AWAY, which the guys tried to do. you have to temper that with the realisation that turning and running may trigger a "chase" reflex in your attackers .... but then again, some may give up early or not bother, plus you may be able to string them out and deal with less simulataneous attackers than you otherwise would. DAMAGING the ringleader prior to fleeing may sow seeds of doubt in some of his followers, and the thought of putting in that effort chasing someone to possibly end up injured when/if you do catch them, might also be a deterrent. No absolutes or sure things here, basically the situation is too fluid or random to read with much certainty.

I was fortunate enough to attend a talk given by a Canberra criminal lawyer, Peter Shields, who is also a high dan grade in Goju Ryu karate, at a mixed MA camp I attended in 2000. He has successfully defended a number of people who were charged with offences ranging from assault with a deadly weapon to murder as a result of defending themselves. Fascinating detail, but the subject of a different thread.

One of his arguments was that, in Oz at least, an attack on a single person by more than two people MAY be regarded in court as a potentially deadly situation, and the person attacked MAY be justified in using weapons and deadly force in defense. I say MAY, because it will depend heavily on specifics, plus the quality of your lawyer and the moods of the judge and jury.

Tony Blauer, Scott Sonnon, Marc MacYoung and Geoff Thompson have some excellent stuff out there on dealing with multiple assailants. Geoff T's material on "The Fence" and "The art of fighting without fighting" is IMO required reading.

Drills: You have to do some pressure sparring to learn to deal with pressure and pain. Role playing with plenty of "hot interview" shouting is good. Also sparring with multiple opponents, working on using them as obstacles for the others, keeping on the outside of the group, etc. Soft obstacles can be added to the training floor to make things more interesting.

One drill we stole from Tony Blauer is to work in groups of four. One shuts his eyes and the others arrange themselves at variable but close distances. The mark opens his eyes, then immediately attacks/counters the closest guy before moving (and maybe moving the person just attacked) to a tactically superior position.

Two other drills I have seen:

Piggy in the middle: other trainees holding various striking pads surround a person in the centre. The person attacks the pads with various strikes, moving around, sharing himself over as many targets as possible. The pad holders progressively move closer until they are close enough to push the guy around and he is at elbow/knee/headbutt/hip&shoulder check range.

Gauntlet: Like the above except the pad holders form two close lines. trainees move back and forth between the pad holders attacking pads in turn. The pad holders gradually close in .

Both drills can be done with another person using a pole with a boxing glove or similar on the end to inject attacks from long distance and overhead.

Arguably these drills might imprint the wrong message, i.e. stand your ground and fight rather than escape, but they do teach some basic skills for the multiopponent situation, and if nothing else they are really good for the cardio and a lot of fun.

BTW, Sandy, some might criticise you for editing some messages on the thread, mine included, but on reflection I think you did the right thing in this instance.

Matrix

10-05-2002, 05:13 AM

Originally posted by anerlich
One option the guys had was to give up their stuff, one that Strong would recommend. ............ They may have seen their submission as weakness and decided to punish them for it, got enraged if they didn't have "enough" valuables, who knows. There is a very good chance that this would be the case. These packs of thugs surely want the valuables themselves, but there is a power-play at work here. The leader is demonstrating to his pack that they have power in their numbers. Handing over the watch would have been best, but I speculate that the end result may not have changed one bit. I guess we'll never know for sure.

Matrix

red5angel

10-07-2002, 08:06 AM

OK, my post was deleted and obviously there was some misunderstanding so let me try to explain my point of view without hurting anyones feelings :rolleyes:

First of all, 2 guys against 10? And these two guys walk away with barely a scratch on them? While I would allow the possibility, I have a hard time believeing it, regardless of whether it was printed in a real news letter, and regardless of whoes newsletter it is. Was this encounter confirmed by the security guard or anyone else?
Why is it important to me that it be challenged? Because events like this are extremely rare, and more often then not turn out very bad for the minority. Thats where I believe the stupidity comes in Glenn Richards, people buying these stories without challenging and then thinking they can pull it off themselves.
Who here has seen this sort of fight? I have seen a few and while I have seen some of the minority combatants break away from the fight and run, most o fthe time they are surrounded and pummeled until the attack is stopped by an outside party or the attackers get bored and leave.
Thats the serious discussion Anerlich. These guys got out because they were lucky, period. If 10 determined attackers decided to jump two even well trained people, chances are very good those two people are going to the hospital, or worse.
My apologies for not buying into every cute story about two some martial artist miraculously getting out of some against the odds situation.:rolleyes:
Of course gullibility helps those out there with secret techniques and no touch knockouts and all sorts of other crap make money and survive. not too mention stories of 300+ fights:eek:

Sandman2[Wing Chun]

10-07-2002, 09:02 AM

red5angel,
So are you saying that in your line of wing chun, there is no training on how to deal with multiple opponents? Does your school not have drills or training methods similar to the ones that Anerlich's school uses, or do you just use different ones? Do you doubt the veracity of this account simply because you don't feel you personally could have survived a similar encounter? So what would you have done differently in a situation like that if running had not been an immediate option?

red5angel

10-07-2002, 09:49 AM

Sandman, I wouldn't say we don't train for multiple attackers but that anyone who is training in the martial arts should be realistic about what is and is not possible. I am also not saying it isnt possible to walk away from a fight like this, just that most of the time it doesnt happen and a good portion of the time these types of stories turn out to be bull. I say its great if these guys really did cross paths with ten combatants and survive, BUT, if there were ten guys, which means an average of 5 guys on one guy a piece, one or two major factors made it possible for these guys to get out relatively unharmed. A.) The combatants werent really trying that hard or didnt have the heart to do the damage they could have, or b.) these guys got really lucky.
This isnt to say their training didn't come into play, but there are very few people out there capable of surviving in one piece an attack by 10 attackers who really want to do some damage.
If running is not an option you fight and hope you get lucky. What I mean by lucky is that you hope you do enough damage and the rest of the combatants recognize this fact and decide to back off, or I have more fight then they expected and decide it isnt worth it. A favorite quote or exchange of mine "There are six of us and you only have one bullet." "Yes, but which one of you is going to take the bullet?"
Sorry guys but the story itself just doesn't gel in my book. This guy was punched and kicked several times before finding the "leader" (A ploy that is common in martial stories but in reality doesnt work as well as it would seem) and pummeling him while 6 of his mates apparently sat around and watched this go down?
Crimson king, look again you pointed out that they claim to beat these guys in a fight and fight their way out but that is exactly what this guy claims, not only that but he and his freind were congratulated for having beaten 10 people into conditions worse then themselves had been. I dont buy it, it just sounds like this guy watched too many kung fu movies.

anerlich

10-07-2002, 05:24 PM

Redboy doesn't believe my fellow student's story.

I don't believe most of Redboy's hyperbole either, and I know that with less than a year with his assessment of a decent instructor he doesn't have the experience base to know anyway.

To me, he shot his mouth off, everyone told him he's off base, his ego's now trying to justify itself (why can't it do this privately?). If he can call my fellow student a liar, I guess I can call Red one as well. If I were nasty, I could imply he had a reading disability since his blatherings seem to have little to do with what my classmate actually wrote.

An example of what I'm talking about:

Of course gullibility helps those out there with secret techniques and no touch knockouts and all sorts of other crap make money and survive. not too mention stories of 300+ fights

Nobody. least of all me or my fellow student, talked about any of this, let alone using such imaginary tactics in a fight. Why is Redboy bringing it into the discussion other than to deflect the spotlight of ridicule from himself, a mission in which he seems to have failed miserably, or to once again bring up his love/hate obsessive relationship with Emin Boztepe (ref: the 300+ fights)?

"gullibility" would be buying into red5angel's line of argument.

Others can judge the veracity of the story, and the appropriateness of red5angel's comments thereon for themselves. Based on responses so far, looks like I'm well ahead...

hunt1

10-07-2002, 05:44 PM

Red5-just because you're not good enough and maybe your teacher doesnt have the knowledge to show you doesnt mean 1 cannot handle 5. It just means you and yours cant. If you doubt me I can give you the e-mail of my smallest student who with less than 9 months training handled 5 bouncers at a local strip club while drunk. This was all seen by a police office in his car sitting outside the club. 2 300lbers bleeding from the face and head and 1 drunk 150lb wing chun man without a scratch on him. The other 3 had no real hurts but they sure werent interested in getting any from what I heard.

vingtsunstudent

10-07-2002, 06:13 PM

well unfortunately i didn't have the time to read through all of reds ussual garbage, i will add as usual that he odviously has no fight experience( what you got to say red, you've told us all that you've hit 2 guys - wow, some experience to talk of)
dude, i can tell you right now that surving an attack of 10 against 2, esp. 10 untrained idiots who are wholey and soley relying on your fear and their intimidation factor should be able to be handled by some, esp. a well trained martial artist.
now i'm not saying that there isn't a chance you won't walk away uninjured even if you are an m.a. because unfortunately some people no matter how hard they train or try they will just never be able to handle the pressure of a real combat situation.
if you want to know how i know all this is possible, well, on more than one occassion i have had to deal with more than one.
i'm a little stupid and perhaps even psycho but on at least 2 ocassions that come to hand i have initiated the attack on 3 and 4 people(and these were grow men not street kids), the first were some f'wits who decided me be alone in my car would easily get away with smacking on the bonnet and saying 'nice car, smoke it up'(i have a thing for fast cars and nobody touches them when i'm around)
after getting(leaving my car in the middle of the road at a set of lights) out & asking what the hell do they think they're doin', they dicided to inform me to 'f off it's only a car & there is three of us so what do you think your gonna do' my simple reply was 'well it's my car & is that right' before i proceeded to smack all 3 and watch them run(well 1 was hobbling pretty bad) off down the road.
the second was at a bowling club(that's lawn bowls) on boxing day a few years ago(quite a few, when i was young and stupid) and i didn't like these guys attitude(they weren't drunk, just bad attitudes) i did have back up he was caught behind what was a massive crowd, again i ain't gonna' cop crap and threats, i left one unconscious on the green and one of the other 3 pleading to the police when they arrived that i was a psycho, the police naturally believed me & that nobody was silly enough to take on 4 guys(esp. seeing as though they weren't the smallest of men)
it was funny for me in the sense that i knew one of the police and i told him exactly what happened, to which he shook his head laughed and walked away leaving his other officers to deal with the crowd.
i'm sorry for my ramblings but it needs to be said that not all of us on here speak about what we think we know, some of us actually have done and not just lived in the protected little world of the kwoon and what we think we'd do if it ever happened.
my only advice to those that are faced with the real threat of this is to run like hell & if that's not possible you better have the devil in you and make sure that it is you who goes home safely and not the fools and scum who would wish harm on you.
by the way i could ramble on more about even worse odds but seeing as though a lot of them include alcohol i hardly think that even a large group can have somewhat of an advantage over someone who is mentally ready(and a bit psyco) for them & out just trying to do a job and make it home safely to his family no matter what.
vts
ps to red, i'm sorry we have to disagree all the time and i'm also sorry if you don't believe me, however you once mentioned you would be coming to australia one day and you need not worry as i am sure after meeting me you will be left with no doubt as to whether or not i'm full of it.
good luck to all in your training and remember 'if you train hard, you'll not only be hard, you'll be hard to beat'

OdderMensch

10-08-2002, 03:10 AM

disclaimer- i am about to be rude, antagonistic & terribly offensive- but i love ya's all

:D

Maybe it is a dream that you could fight off multiple attackers, or maybe it's a nightmare that you'd have to.

red5angel

10-08-2002, 06:48 AM

Anerlich, I expected more from you man, lately you seem to be pretty level headed. I am disappointed in you and hope that this anger doesnt come out when you or if you have to fight.
I dont buy it and I said why, it doesnt brake my heart these sorts of stories get and that most are potentially false, it shouldnt break yours that I dont believe it.

Hunt1 - riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight ;). I have some nice land in florida I would like to sell you too.

VTS - No problem on alwasy disagreeing :) It doesnt bother me and I hope it doesnt really bother you. When I get the chance to come to Australia I imagine we both might be pleasantly surprised.

Regardless, I dont buy it guys, it was a nice story, maybe could be made into a movie, and if anyone here wants to stop oooing and aaaahing and the story we could talk about how this may or may not work.

vingtsunstudent

10-08-2002, 07:08 AM

OdderMensch
i'll let you know a little secret, i have friends who even scare me.
one in particular is a kiwi friend who's part islander part irish(now there's a good mix) and he is about 6''3 and 264 pounds. his grandfather was an ex barefist boxing champion and coal shoveler on the ships, so he comes from a line of hard men.
i know that this is the internet and can be taken with a grain of salt but this is just a couple of his many dealings with multiple attackers that i know of.
he was a bouncer, however on this ocassion his father had a cleaning contract to clean a food court opposite a pub here in newcastle(this one even made the local news)
he got into a fight with 7 guys, one smashed a bottle over the back of his head,(yes, it was a good open wound that required many stitches) anyways he left that one unconscious and bleeding heavily, as well as 3 others unco. while the last 3 ran off.
the second he told me was about when he lived back in new zealand and was on his way to boxing training early one morning.
a car pulled up with 3 large samoans in it(if you know these islanders you know that they can have a considerable dislike for each other)
anyways he said he knew something was up immediately, he was listen to music on his head phones and one got out asking for a cigarette, on approaching him the guy took a huge swing wich he said he ducked under and hooked the guy knocking him clean out(this guy actually trains quite regularly at my house and i have a 7 ft thai bag that weighs about 100kgs and watching him hit it is truely scarey) he then proceeded to knock both the others out and left to go to the bus stop up the road.
the next day when he went to get the next bus there was a woman there who had been there and witnessed what happened the day before and she told him that she thought he was about to die but had to laugh at what had happened. she also informed him that they were all still lying there when the bus arrived for her to get on.
again people will believe what they want and that's fine by me, i know these are true just as i know i've had my cheekbone broken,(required surgery to be put back in place, and also recieved a ****ty $4500 for it for happening while on the job) had many stitches, stuffed my thumb and many more injuries whilst fighting.
so don't think that any of this comes without pain, and don't think any of this comes easy. i don't think i'm bragging because i know that there are millions of people in this world who would easily demolish me, i am but a small fish that hasn't even began to swim in what is a huge ocean, the only reason i say these things is so it is clear that with good training and an evil mindset you can fight and win no matter what the odds and no matter what someone who's never done it and can't even begin to understand that there are bad people out there who wish you that much harm will try and have you believe.
to those who dare to believe that any of this is possible believe me it is and those who don't, well you can just blow me you little minded no hearted losers, go play at the kwoon in the world of safety and what ifs.
vts

old jong

10-08-2002, 07:16 AM

Do you think Carl could take more than one opponent?....In a fight ,not in chi sau with rules!

vingtsunstudent

10-08-2002, 07:30 AM

'When I get the chance to come to Australia I imagine we both might be pleasantly surprised.'
red, i'm sorry bud but i've seen a hundred of you. you try and talk the the talk but you hobble around like a wounded duck.
your lack of any real experience is so evident to anybody that has had to face their fears and them put them to the side and just fight that it makes me laugh.
now with all that real experience you tell us why it is impossible to do these things.
did you know that there have been documented cases of soldiers facing down overwhelming odds during times of war and have lived to tell the tales.
these are soldiers fighting other trained soldiers who are trying to kill them, not just beat them up and rob them.
you should never underestimate the human spirit for survival in the face of death or severe injury.
you fight with me and you'd better believe your gonna have to kill me or i'm gonna hurt you bad.
you see i have a girl i love and 2 children and ain't no scumbag going to stop me from getting home to them safely.
besides thats not being enough motivation for me, i love living and i will do what it takes to stay that way.
do you understand how some people think yet red or is it all just a bit much for you to grasp.
vts

red5angel

10-08-2002, 07:37 AM

Old Jong - Yep, but his skill is much much higher then the majority of practitioners and definitely much higher then this guy who had to fall back on boxing to defend himself.

VTS - Forgive me, I thought your apology and desire to meet up in australia were sincere.
I would never underestimate the human spirit but I dont buy into some weak story about some guy who knows a little martial arts and defends off an large amount of people.

I tell you what, For those of you who wish to, I can arrange to find 10 guys, all of them with no martial experience whatsoever, and we can find a gymn or a space big enough and see what you guys can do. Friendly of course, I dont want anyone getting seriously hurt, but for anyone who wants to take the challenge then lets do it, no talking the talk here VTS, just walking the walk. ;)

old jong

10-08-2002, 07:46 AM

''Old Jong - Yep, but his skill is much much higher then the majority of practitioners''

This is the kind of statements that set you apart R5A!...:rolleyes:

'' no talking the talk here VTS, just walking the walk.''

As long as you're part of the ten guys!

;)

red5angel

10-08-2002, 08:01 AM

Old Jong, of course unless you want 10 untrained guys.
Also there are very few people out there who have a really high skill level, some of those may have some answers for fighting 10 determined people but I doubt your average wing chun person can do it.

vingtsunstudent

10-08-2002, 08:13 AM

'I tell you what, For those of you who wish to, I can arrange to find 10 guys, all of them with no martial experience whatsoever, and we can find a gymn or a space big enough and see what you guys can do. Friendly of course, I dont want anyone getting seriously hurt, but for anyone who wants to take the challenge then lets do it, no talking the talk here VTS, just walking the walk'
i tell ya what red, if me and my friend ruben(the little islander boy) lived in the states i'd definitely take you up on that. and yes i would love to meet as friends, i am not a man of violence, i am simply a man who lives in a violent world and has adjusted so as to survive it.

'Yep, but his skill is much much higher then the majority of practitioners and definitely much higher then this guy who had to fall back on boxing to defend himself.'
so your saying that he has done it, or you just think he could, you know the way you think others can't.

unfortunately red your own ignorance is your downfall, as is the belief you hold so highly in what you think you know.
unfortunately when i was young i came from being a stupid hard headed rugby league foward who just loved good hard physical contact to a martial artist who thought he could take on the world, then i decided to take up bouncing at a fairly young age so as test what i had learnt.
well, i learnt quick and i learnt the hard way that there are a lot better out there and some are even untrained(imagine my surprise). i did get better at fighting but still realised i would never even look like being the best.
my confidence is not that of ego but of knowledge from getting my a$$ kicked and going through the blood and sweat of real violence not what some chi sao god with what seems to be a good root whilst in the safety of the kwoon tells me is the way it will go down.
good luck in your training
because until you have learnt some hard lessons that is all it will ever be.
vts

red5angel

10-08-2002, 08:16 AM

Well, its open to anyone who wants to make the trip or stop by. You could also try it at home kids, get about 10 of your freinds and tell them to try to tackle and hold you down as best they can and see what happens.

VTS - Then when I am in the land of Oz I will have to stop by and say hi.

vingtsunstudent

10-08-2002, 08:36 AM

'Well, its open to anyone who wants to make the trip or stop by. You could also try it at home kids, get about 10 of your freinds and tell them to try to tackle and hold you down as best they can and see what happens.'
i'm sorry red but the reason i said me and my friend would do it to 10 people you know is because to us they would mean nothing and to hurt them would be of no consequence to us, although i don't think you'd be to popular after all was said and done.
please tell me that that above statement was an absolutely really not funny joke or is it just your lack of reality again to even think that you could control in anyway 10 of your friends(or anybody for that matter) without having to let them see the devil come out of you.

you also forgot to answer this question i ask you-
'Yep, but his skill is much much higher then the majority of practitioners and definitely much higher then this guy who had to fall back on boxing to defend himself.'
so your saying that he has done it?, or you just think he could?, you know the way you think others can't.
vts
ps 'VTS - Then when I am in the land of Oz I will have to stop by and say hi.'
and if i'm ever in laa laa land red i'll stop by and say hi to you
;) :D

red5angel

10-08-2002, 08:41 AM

VTS - I dont know if Carl has ever faced off that many people, I can ask him at some point. I am not sure if he could or not, with 10 determined attackers I am not convinced anyone could.

vingtsunstudent

10-08-2002, 09:04 AM

against 10 i might agree with you red. even that being 10 untrained street kids. lets rember that in the first post by anerlich that he never said thay were determined attackers, maybe detemined to cause a bit of trouble and try and steal a few dollars but that does not mean the same as you are trying to make out.
however there was two of them and even at the extreme that may mean he had to only fend off 7 whilst the other had 3.
after fighting 3 and 4 and winning i could easily see how it is possible to survive 6 or 7.
again red, your lack of belief in this will mean that if ever happens to you then are already defeated.
dare to be confident and dare to believe in what has happened to others even if they aren't your beloved carl.

red, has nobody in your school had to fight, if so what do they say about the reality of fighting, what do they share and bring to the class so that others may learn from their experiences. if there is nobody there who has had real fight experience(and i mean more than just one or two street scuffles) then how do you know that what you are leaning is the real deal as you so often like to put it?
how do you not know that what you are being show is just what your teacher THINKS would happen if **** went down, because from your last post you say you would have to ask him of his experience.
anyways, it's way past my bed time, so i must thank you for the fun again and unless sandy goes on another of his mass deletion binges i shall see what you have to say tommorow.
vts

red5angel

10-08-2002, 10:04 AM

In the case of 10 opponents VTS, I would say it is definitely a matter of how determined they are. If they arent that determined and you do enough damage to one or two then the rest may decide the payoff isnt worth it. I am not saying it is totally out of the bounds of reality, it could be done, but the story itself smacks of falseness, and the only reason I would say anything at all is because some idiot out there might start believeing this sort of crap is common and feel he can do it to and get him or herself in trouble. nighty night vts......

anerlich

10-08-2002, 03:15 PM

I am disappointed in you

I expected more from you

I don't care.

vts and just about everyone else is correct. red5angel is incorrect.

Looks like I'm still well ahead.

I guess whether you believe your Wing Chun can help you survive a real world situation with multiple attackers, or not, you are probably right.

tparkerkfo

10-08-2002, 03:55 PM

Hey, whats up with you all? You all are talking absolutes. We know nothing about the events in question, and we are making assumptions about ones skills. R5A does have some good points. I take Anerlich at hs word, no reason not to.

Fighting is a funny topic. Take any two guys and you can have any outcome. Many factors are involved. It is not a science. I agree with Red that fighting multiple opponents is difficult to say the least. I beleive me and Anerlich went over this on another form years ago. But it has been done, and will continue to be done. Part of it depends on the skill, luck, and determination of both parties. heck, look at history, the spartans wiped out vastly supperior armies as did hannibal. Just shows it can happen. Hung Gar has a great example of several top level guys fighting in an ambush. Docemented and all. So it does and can happen. As some one pointed out though, what was the intent of the kids? Mayhen, maim, kill? What was the true skill of the other guys? lots of variables. Search Kazaa or some swapping sites and you will find some real street encounters. You can easily find such situations were one guy, with little or no training whoops a** on a group of people cause he is agressive.

Anyways, who knows if the story is true. But there is a chance it could be. So, what do you learn, if anything, about it? There is no point in asking if Red could do it, or Carl. Carl aint on the list. Carl is a nice guy from what I have seen. I hate to see one of his stuents give him a black eye. Carl aint the best. But he is pretty good. he is still learning, as we are all. Red, you should stop putting your sifu in these discussions, it doesn't reflect well on him and you may not be doing him justice. I bring up Ken only when I want to offer some "authority" to what I am saying, but I can not speak for him or make any claims for him. I, for the most part, am now relctant to drop his name. Stand on your own coattails, not Carls, or Ken's. They are good, but no one will beleive it if that is all that is talked about.

Just some thoughts
Tom
________
Creampie Black (http://www.****tube.com/categories/451/black/videos/1)

Akuma

10-10-2002, 03:48 AM

When they asked for the money, I would have said the same thing 'that i didn't have any'...but if they were persisting like they were in this case, I would have given them the money and whatever else they wanted.

I think one should at least try that much. Do what they want and you can hopefully just go or run away...coz if you give them your stuff and then run..well...they may be less inclined to follow you because they would feel that they have the stuff of value that you were carrying so, what's the point in wasting energy chasing two people down and beating the hell out of them...Ofcourse that might be all that they wanted to do in the first place--who knows?

But the thing is, I think it would have been smarter to just give your stuff to them and try to go away calmly or run. THEN, if they kept following you or, whatever, use your MA training as best you can to survive.

Also I do have one question about the WC guy in the situation. What was his level of WC training?--was he an advanced student or relatively new or what was his background?

Do you think that you'd have to be an advanced student to be able to survive these types of situations? I can see it being pretty possible to survive such an encounter if they were really well trained and practicing all the time for a number of years and having good body conditioning, but an ordinary person doing 4 hrs a week would seem unlikely...but I dont' know--I guess anything is possible :)