Which Groundfighting style you recommend

[WCFighter]

Hi everyone,

I am just curious what groundfighting style you would choose
to supplement your kungfu.

BJJ
Judo
Greco-Roman wrestling

I am particularly interested in knowing if BJJ and Judo are
still effective if someone is not wearing their kimonos.

Will greco-roman wrestling be more effective because it doesn't
rely on grabbing clothes?

I have no particular preference. I just want honest, experienced, opinions.

The reason I bring this up is because I read a thread in this forum the other day which mentionned that a BJJer should be careful against a wrestler because they are proficient at what they do.

[Stranger]

Don't forget SAMBO.

[Former castleva]

Is there such a thing as groundfighting style? Except BJJ maybe...? Judo and Sambo too,I think,have so much more to give besides that.

I remember Black Belt magazine made a brave but rude statement that 80% of judo&jujitsu grappling is ineffective if there is no gi to ruffle...
that has been questioned though,there are still so many techniques which won´t rely on that,they should not at least.

Groundwork is not generally big thing in KF but maybe we could add kou chuan/dog boxing which deals pretty much with that,not to mention it´s probably rare.

[Stranger]

It wasn't Blackbelt Magazine that said that, Rickson Gracie did in an interview in that particular magazine.

[Repulsive Monkey]

If it was Gracie that made that comment then doesn't that just smack of biased ignorance or what? Personally I always favour Judo over BJJ mainly because in the sparring I have done only A Judoka has brought me down and the 2 BJJ'ers who have tried have woefully failed. This of course is no universal opinion on BJJ but on a personal level it felt so much weaker and inificient than Judo.

[Leonidas]

I'd tell you to try out catchwrestling but hookers are few and far between, it gives a different perspective from BJJ's groundfighting and they teach throws and takedowns also.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
If it was Gracie that made that comment then doesn't that just smack of biased ignorance or what? Personally I always favour Judo over BJJ mainly because in the sparring I have only ever had a Judoka has brought me down and the 2 BJJ'ers who have tried have woefully failed. This of course is no universal opinion on BJJ but on a personal level it felt so much weaker and inificient than Judo.

[LEGEND]

Repulsive Monkey...LOL...try doing some research dood. Rickson Gracie mention that Sports BJJ is quite different from the Vale Tudo version. The truth is...the Vale Tudo( aka Anything Goes ) is quite easy to learn and apply. I suggest buying a face mask helmet...some light gloves...and an BJJ instructor that will teach u the Vale Tudo way of fighting. Is it different from SPORTs BJJ. YES...u don't use a lot of fancy techs...like spinning sweeps or fancy escapes from bad positions. I think alot of peeps that advocate BJJ prefer the sports aspect( CHESS ) and in some way find the VALE TUDO training brutal. I know I do!

[The GREat Ro0ster]

one of our guys turned into a really great ground fighter, he started out mma with us then got into judo. ever since then hes been able to trash just about anyone all the bjj doods included, he says the judo gives him much more feeling for position just my 2 cents

[Merryprankster]

Lot of anti-BJJ bias running around.

Greco is not going to teach you groundfighting in any appreciable way. You will learn a lot of throws and upper body clinch skills. The touch/exposure fall of Greco limits groundgrappling in a way that makes it ill suited for combat ON THE GROUND. It has other highlights, but that's not one of them. Folkstyle wrestling, frequently called collegiate or scholastic in the U.S. has a heavy emphasis on controlling the opponent on the mat. Consequently, there is a higher degree of matwork. In fact, the majority of the match takes place on the mat. Usually. ;)

Catch wrestling is ummm.... well, the honest truth is that, not only are hookers few and far between, nobody can really decide what Catch means. It's a DEAD ART, like latin is a dead language. You can try and recreate it, you can even read and write it, but nobody REALLY KNOWS FOR CERTAIN what this was. We have books and photos and some really good ideas about what all this is, but the line between Catch and early "WWF," type matches is so blurry I don't think anybody really knows where one stopped and the other began. I'm not knocking catch, I'm just trying to throw some historical perspective on things. It's basically wrestling with Submissions, and it carries over wrestling's aggressive physicality along with a knack for slapping hooks (submissions) in in some places other arts might find very odd. It's good stuff, but finding "real," Catch isn't going to be easy--and they have more lineage type arguments than WC. Good BJJ feels like a straight jacket made of water. Good Catch Wrestlers feel like they are trying to mug you. Both work fine. The guard is heavily de-emphasized in Catch. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it poses it's own set of problems.

Judo does have a lot of the BJJ groundwork. However, the argument that these two are one and the same holds no water for me. They have diverged sufficiently to become seperate entities, IMO. In Judo you will at least learn the rudiments of groundfighting, but there is no guarentee you will spend much time on the mat. Very generally speaking, a person who has spent 2 years in BJJ will wipe the mat with a 2 year Judoka, IF you limit the discussion to groundwork only. Stand-up, and watch the BJJer's feet hit the ceiling as he gets thrown like a ragdoll :). It's a matter of what you train. Judo's emphasis, for the most part, and as it is commonly taught, is about the throw. Again, not a bad thing. But groundwork focused per se? No.

Sambo will expose you to a greater variety of locks. Neat stuff. The rules of Sportive Sambo limit groundwork time to some extent, so there is a "bang away," feeling for the submission. Be prepared to garner some major leg injuries if you do this stuff. I've never met a Sambo player who didn't hurt their knee severely at least once. Sambo guys tend to be vulnerable to a good guard player because it's not used very often. On the other hand, BJJ guys frequently fall prey to Sambo's leg-lock expertise. Six of one, have dozen of the other.

Most BJJ schools have at least one class a week of no gi work. Most of your BJJ moves will work without the gi. They are just modified slightly and the setups change a little.

[old jong]

''--and they have more lineage type arguments than WC.''

Must be really something! :D
Catch also gives me the impression that physical force is more essential to the style than in BJJ!...

[Merryprankster]

Old Jong, I'm not sure that's accurate. It just comes from a different tradition. For instance, the American Style of wrestling is spectacularly aggressive and the idea is that we will outwork you. The Iranian style does not have quite the same aggressiveness. Both are successful. What fits you best? :)

Remember that a sportive competition requires great conditioning, so having an "I'll outwork you," attitude isn't all bad.

[phantom]

Actually, Matt Furey claims that catch wrestling requires less physical stength than BJJ.

[phantom]

Merryprankster, would wearing knee pads while practicing sambo help prevent such injuries, or at least make them somewhat less severe? If so, do you know of any particular brand of knee pads that give good protection? Thanks in advance.

[Merryprankster]

Knee pads would be useless to prevent the damage from twisting leg locks, but do reduce wear and tear on your knees overall.

I like Asics Gels. A very good pad. They run about 14 bucks a pad (not pair) but are WELL worth the price.

Matt Furey is a blowhard, IMO. Grappling is grappling and requires a similar level of conditioning regardless of what you do. He can probably kick my butt, and he probably has something decent to teach but he runs his dang mouth so much, I don't wanna listen.

[Former castleva]

Stranger,
returning to that strong words on judo thing,it was presented in Black Belt mag in an article which was basically of kung-fu chin-na,which was displayed as somewhat superior grappling in a way :) There was no mention on Gracie (or grazy family as Jon Bluming says) but the comment was not made by KF player(s) even though the article was theirs.

[SwaiingDragon]

in my opinion

if ur hard core kfer...learn a as much chi na as possible- if u do it right u can do many techniques standing and on the ground-

i've tried sambo, judo, and hapkido- and enjoyed them all- sambo is an entire art form that should be learned ,like shuai chiao it incorporates strikes, throw/takedowns but has more ground locks.

judo is awesome training (the variation of throws are incredible), but has limitation to ground fighting because of its sport aspect,

hapkido is very good (like its brother system, tkd, it very cardio), but it depends on the instructor you study with ; if he prefers kick, locks, punches, etc....

i've only sparred with bbj guys- never really took a hardcore lesson....

[Merryprankster]

The way of moving on the ground is different. Period. You have to practice down there or it doesn't matter how good your chin na is.

Not knocking Chin na, just pointing out a necessary training component.

[phantom]

Thanks again, MerryPrankster. I also really like what little I have seen of African groundfighting. Good luck trying to find a school that teaches it, though. The only person I know of who teaches it is Lloyd Kennedy somewhere in California. I think Sensei Kuntz in California learned some stuff from Lloyd Kennedy, so perhaps he knows this style as well.

[SevenStar]

I agree with MP - chin na doesn't just automatically transfer to the ground. you can do small joint manipulation on the ground, but it differs from standing.

[Former castleva]

Deeper one goes,any single area of grappling can be found from KF.
Theoretically speaking,you would not even need to skip to different systems for missing areas,skipping to different KF styles could be enough to catch it all.
Including high level stuff like blood&cavity press etc. which may be hard to find from many other arts,there are so many techniques.

[FatherDog]

I don't want to turn this into a 'Whose Catch Wrestling is Real' thread (or a Catch Wrestling thread at all, since that's clearly inappropriate for this board), but one of those 'lineage arguments' MP mentioned is that a lot of folks who study catch are very disdainful of Furey, who they consider to be an amateur (at catch) offering other people's teachings in order to make cash. I've never had any personal contact with Furey and am just reporting hearsay, so take it for what it's worth. I can say that I've seen a few pictures of Furey at seminars doing moves that are clearly /wrong/, no matter /what/ style they are. Again, such things can be taken out of context, so don't take that as any authority.

http://www.catchwrestle.com is a non-Furey-affiliated site, if anyone's interested in reading up on it.

[Leonidas]

You seem alittle biased to BJJ MP.

[SevenStar]

I don't think he's biased toward it, he's just pointing out miscnonceptions that many of the people on this forum who are biased against it have.

[Dark Knight]

I own Tony's 10 tape catchwrestling series. Def worth getting. If you are looking for good information and a different effective method for ground fighting w/o a gi get these.

[Chang Style Novice]

"Lou Thesz...dubbed Tony Cecchine a "Hooker," a term bestowed on the highest practitioner of the art."

So THAT'S what all that rolling around grabbing each other is about!

:eek: ;)

I bookmarked the Catch Wrestling site, by the way. There's a reference to a Texas Catch Wrestling Club, but I can't find any more info on them. Any pointers?

[ShaolinTiger00]

I'll toss in my two cents with my own experience.

in a classical dojo, judo is roughly split 50/50 or 60/40 -throwing/matwork. While sport rules limit newaza/katamewaza (ground fighting) almost every judoka practices matwork in a manner almost identical to bjj, where there is no time limit and each judoka will work towards a submission.

MP however brought up a point. take a 2 yr judoka and a 2 yr bjj and do down to the ground. watch the judoka turn purple (he onlt has half the time in this arena) Now stand them up. the judoka will be more skilled and the bjj is out of his element. in this situation the judoka can take his opponent to the ground and put himself in a better position to fight from. Either he is still standing with control of an arm or he has done a sacrifice throw and could get mount or side mount.

Bjj is a better ground art. judo the more well rounded.

Is money a consideration? Bjj is mucho dinero $$$$ Ironically judo may be the cheapest martial art around. I pay under $200/YEAR including tournament dues.

If you prefer standup you may like judo more. You can visualize how you work thru the ranges and execute the throw and enter the groundwork. The guard, sweeps, mount, sidemount, north south, keylock,kimura, armbar, gi chokes, triangle, an many many more are all techniques that are found and taught in most judo schools. judo groundwork is good. judo competiton groundwork is limited. since this is the only exposure many see to juso, this is the message that they see.

my reccomendation, try judo first, you'll learn alot about general grappling. If you become comfortable with throws or takedowns and begin to really excell in matwork then head directly for bjj.


have fun!

[lkfmdc]

hate Matt Furey, call him the anti Christ if you wish, but his catch stuff comes from Karl Gotch, and NO ONE can say anything bad about Karl Gotch, his lineage or his technique with a straight face. The late (lord rest his soul) Lou Thesz spoke highly of Gotch, so do Gene LeBell and of course the entire Japanese shoot movement. Catch as competition may be dead, and there may not be a lot of people who know it, but it isn't totally dead like Latin, it lives in Shooto, in some other Japanese gyms who are descended from Gotch and in Gotch affiliates elsewhere in the world

Tony C's tape are all ground, no standing, leaving a large hole in the method

[Stranger]

FC,

I'M GUESSING, that Blackbelt comandeered the quote from the earlier interview with Rickson that appeared in either Blackbelt or Inside Kung Fu. The reporter was asking Rickson why he chose not to use the gi in competition when he spends most of his training time wearing one. Rickson replied that without the gi, jujutsu loses 75% of its techniques (gi chokes, fancy grip based leverage techniques, stalls, etc.). He then added that it didn't effect him as a fighter since he used the same techniques (that remaining 25%) whether in a gi or not. Rickson's style is not as technically complicated as other BJJ practitioners. He uses fundamentals, good breathing, and a lot of flow. Having trained briefly in his organization I can give a rudimentary example:

I have full mount on my opponent, who attempts to push me off with straight arms (a big NO-NO against a submission grappler). Every BJJ white belt knows what to do next, but in Rickson's school the grip you use even with the gi on is designed to trap an unclothed sweaty arm. You don't learn two grips, you learn one that works both ways. Rickson will demo what he calls "forbidden passes, escapes, and sweeps". These are sport BJJ techniques or dated (Helio-era) techniques. You are required to know them for demonstration purposes, but you aren't supposed to use them when rolling as they build bad habits for no gi, vale tudo, and self-defense training.

The major US martial art magazines have a habit of taking quotes from interview subjects and later using the quote without giving credit. Rorion's quote about 95% of all fights going to the ground would be another example. Mags. use that line all the time now. It has become a piece of martial arts pop culture dogma. I am sure there are other examples that I am not aware of.

Rickson did not comment on judo in the article that I read.

[Daredevil]

I'm with MP and SevenStar on this .. and though certain qinna techniques can certainly be applied anywhere, in general I think qinna is aways different from ground grappling.

It's a whole different mindset.

For the doubters, get on the mat and roll. You'll see.

I like qinna for its ability to manipulate your opponent (and his center), take him that way or this way (or take him down .. hmm) and to generally make grappling you or giving a limb for you to grab a bad idea. However, personally I prefer striking over this. The time used to establish qinna techniques can be used to strike.

Wham, bam, thank you ma'am.

[Former castleva]

Stranger,thanks for the details.
I just can´t swallow that jujutsu comment,I´m no expert on it but I think most of techniques including numerous strikes,kicks etc. (which naturally don´t rely on clothes) and biggest amount of throws,chokes,takedowns and locks do have very little to do with clothes.Just think about some basic grappling techniques of jujutsu-ikkajo,nikkajo,sankajo...those locks/pins as an example and numerous throws...opponent might as well be naked.
This is my understanding,remembering that exceptions may remain.

[SevenStar]

"in a classical dojo, judo is roughly split 50/50 or 60/40 -throwing/matwork. While sport rules limit newaza/katamewaza (ground fighting) almost every judoka practices matwork in a manner almost identical to bjj, where there is no time limit and each judoka will work towards a submission."

I think that may kinda vary from dojo to dojo. the coaches at my school would rather go for the position and pin you than to submit you. and they LOVE mat work, so we do plenty of it.

as far as being well rounded, I think bjj is more well rounded for sport competition. a bjj guy with a few solid throws under his belt should be able to hang in bjj, judo and sambo, but with judo lacking a little in submissions, I dunno how it would fare in sambo and bjj tourneys. That's purely speculation however.

[Stranger]

FC,

I believe when Rickson says, "Jujutsu loses 75% of its techniques.....", he is referring to jujutsu as his family practices it (really it is more like modified judo with a heavy emphasis on matwork). Other styles of jujutsu may be less gi dependent, but not necessarily more effective. Rickson knows his wrist locks and stikes, but these skills in addition to vale tudo style grappling represent only about 25% of the complete BJJ arsenal. BJJ was very fundamental and designed to fight non-BJJ guys until the 1970's. When Rolls and his training partnrs started exploring judo and sambo they found grappling techniques that were not in the BJJ syllabus. They absorbed some of them (particularly leglocks and triangle chokes). Other techniques made them modify existing strategies (become aware of the forbidden passes, sweeps, and escapes I mentioned earlier). When sport-BJJ came along, things became even more complicated as now BJJ had to out-fox BJJ on the ground. Now days BJJ students spend a lot of their training time learning how to go counter for counter for counter in a sport BJJ rolling atmosphere. The vale tudo and self-defense are still there at the schools that have managed to preserve the entire curriculum. Rickson is right in that the sport BJJ arsenal has grown so much in the past decades that vale tudo and self-defense techniques are now only about 25% of the entire BJJ curriculum, the other 75% being a grappling based chess game.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I think that may kinda vary from dojo to dojo.

As judo is such a hugely popular grappling style and encompasses a broader range, there will be more differences. Agreed.

My club works for submissions through positioning philosophy. (Control your opponent, gain the superior posiition hold, then work the sub. If you fail you are still holding him down but a quick sub will conserve your energy as you will probably fight again in shiai.)
-ex. You've thrown opponent with tomoe-nage and recieved waza-ari, you cover with yoko shiho (side mount) but then work the far arm for ude garami (keylock). Even if you can't get the lock, the clock is still ticking down.......

Also there are many international judoka, wrestlers and bjj members at my club. some are classic japanese judoka, others are european/russian and south american. just depends on who is teaching the class. Some classes frown on "wrestler moves" like morote gari or kata guruma, we treat as essential.

and from a sport aspect I really don't think it becomes style verses style in competition until you've reached a high water mark. esp in bjj vs judo as bjj whites and blues aren't even allowed to attack knees and ankles in competition (I think?) Since judoka don't train these they won't miss them.

[Merryprankster]

You seem alittle biased to BJJ MP.

Read my posts again. Nowhere did I say BJJ was a superior groundfighting art. It's a comprehensive groundgrappling art. So is catch, Judo Newaza, or Sambo. Even Folk could be considered a comprehensive art with a little stretch, as it takes little imagination to wail on somebody from a good position, and the sensitivity developed from wrestling allows some good instincts w/regard to submissions. I didn't even imply that BJJ was a superior art. I outlined what I thought were strengths and weaknesses of each art when looked at from the context of a groundgrappling system.

lkfmdc--that's exactly my point. Catch, like latin, is dead, for all intents and purposes. There are bits and pieces of it alive and well, in shooto, for instance, as you pointed out and the masters of the past are still revered--is Cicero any less profound that nobody converses in Latin? But as a body of work, it is not really extant. The best we can do is take what the masters taught as best we could and scrape it together. You'll never get the "old" catch wrestling back. This doesn't make the "new" catch as any less valid or useful. This is just my opinion. I've been wrong before.

[Former castleva]

Stranger,I see.
Thanks again.

[omegapoint]

MP makes many valid points. I agree with everything he says. Having years of experience in both Judo and BJJ I would like to add a few things.

The approach that BJJ takes is one of getting your opponent to the ground AND keeping control of him in some way in order to finish with a submission. When you execute a basic shoulder throw in BJJ even the entry serves to protect the BJJ stylist from being struck by punches. Since GJJ/BJJ evolved out of street fighting applications from old school Kodokan Judo newaza, and possibly some adopted techs from other grappling systems, emphasis is on opponent body control, positioning, base and then execution of the throw. The legs are not too far apart and arm control is a must. Instead of throwing dynamically, with lots of elevation the BJJ practitioner can go to one knee and control the ukes descent, by using 2 arms to control the throwing arm. In this way a follow up arm bar can be executed.

In Judo this same throw is often done with lots of elevation and arm control to the ground is not necessarily a big deal. The entry is straight away, with no control of the off arm while going down to one's knees necessarily performed, and no stepping to the off arm side before executing the step across the body to begin the throw. The reason for not controlling the off arm before executing the throw is probably due to the fact that there is no fear of striking in a Judo match. There is no fear of striking in BJJ comp, but since it is an art born of Helio's Vale Tudo experience, these things are taught. Little intricacies like this are common when comparing Judo and BJJ.

Of course I am generalizing, as there are numerous hip and arm throws in Judo, and BJJ contains only a few basic takedowns. People always say that the main difference in the two is that Judo offers a broader range of dynamic throws and takedowns and GJJ offers only a few sweeps and takedowns. Well certain Judo throws will get you clocked while you are setting them up, and BJJ tries to guard aginst that very real possibility. As I explained earlier Judo's Seoi-Nage or "Shoulder Throw" differs in execution and result. This is a result of its evolution into a sport style.

In a real fight or NHB match you wanna end it as soon as possible. If you can't attain a dominant striking position like the full mount, then you should look to end it a some other (decisive) manner. That's what submissions are for. It gives the grappler a definitive method of finishing things.

Judo Newaza is similar, but quite different. Newaza or "groundwork" is not stressed in Judo an art that is an Olympic Sport, but some is taught. BJJ teaches the smaller grappler and the weaker grappler how to fight, control, reverse or submit your opponent effectively from the "guard" or legs around the torso from the bottom position. This extra feature gives the smaller, weaker individual a fighting chance, instead of just being flattened and ground and pounded into oblivion. In Judo, muscle and weight means a little more. That's why Helio changed it. He never weighed more than 155 pounds and many of the submissions and throws were made for big, strong types.

I liked Judo and it was my first art. I got my BB when I was 14. I have my purple in BJJ and I feel that it has taught me more realistic grappling principles. True BJJ is a basics intensive art, and much more effective for streetfighting. There are times when someone will attempt or actually take you to the ground. If they know how to wrestle you better have a plan. By that time if you have to think of something to do, then it may be too late. Preparation is often better than hope or luck.

P.S. BJJ is fun, as it allows you to win without beating the crap out of someone. It takes years to really become proficient at, no matter what people tell you, but you can use it effectively for self-defense after about 6 months of steady training. Good luck in your search...