OT/Shooting Spree in Maryland

[MightyB]

This is going on right now:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/South/10/04/maryland.shootings/index.html

[Stacey]

Ralek did it

[Budokan]

Very sad. But I get the impression they're not going to catch these guys...they have no leads whatsoever. Hope I'm wrong, though, and I was surprised these freaks didn't go on another killing spree today. Thank goodness they didn't, though.

[rogue]

**** scary.

[Liokault]

I have said it before and i will say it again....take the guns away!!!!!



No one is going to go on a long range killing spree with kitchen utensils no matter what any one says about there comparative use as killing tools!!

[rogue]

Then how the heck are we supposed to shoot the a-hole?

[Liokault]

If you never sold him a high powerd hunting/sniper (or just plain general purpse killing) rifle then you wouldnt need to be shooting him would you? 6 fine people would still be alive and the killer would still be sat at home trolling on kung fu forums just like every other manic.

[dwid]

That's a pretty big assumption to make.

[rogue]

Nah, he'd just be killing people someother way. Anyway we're a society that grew up on the gun, not the sword, crossbow, castles or calvery charges. For better or worse it's a part of us.

[Liokault]

It may or may not have been purchased by the perpatrator but i bet at some point that gun was brought by a man in the street going into a shop and paying for it.

Why would it have to be smuggled into the country or stolen from the military in America?



Just read the other day that in 2001 in the UK there were 79 deaths from shooting in the age bracket of 16-65. If you take into account suicide (all our farmers are shooting them selfs) then the number is only 33!!! What was the figure in the US of A?

[dwid]

http://www.thunder5.com/

I didn't think so...

[Liokault]

No...no we can not have anything that "cool".

we can not even have stun guns!!!!!

We can have crossbows though.......but you can only use them in the saftey of your own home.

[Liokault]

I notice that the Thunder 5 has a CHILD RESISTANT loading feature.


Will this mean that little Brab (or Trixi) will be running home bothering pop to reload for them? I can see how that could be really irritating!

[dwid]

Yeah, there's got to be some way to disable that...

Oh well, nothing's perfect.

[jun_erh]

I bet it's a white kid. totally normal, president of his class even.

[jun_erh]

we were always taught that blacks and hispanics were the criminals. Lately it's the arabs and the whites (school shootings, molestinf priests).

[yenhoi]

The root of almost all evil in the world today was in some way caused by the British.

[Liokault]

The root of almost all evil in the world today was in some way caused by the British.


What do you mean almost all?


See what you have to remember is that back in the day the gentry could rape,pillage and kill who ever they liked.

Then when they had raped,pillaged and killed enough to aquire huge wealth they invented laws to protect that wealth from the very people they took it from in the first place.

But now they are all gong soft and learning Yang style Tai Chi......come the revalution it will all be very differant!!

[LEGEND]

A kid was shot this morning while being walked to school by his mother in BOWIE MD. Now that's sick=he's sending a message...i'm convince he listen to radio stations about schools not closing down and got the urge. My professor an ex profiler has come up with a profile...this guy is def. a serial killer. He's daring the cops to catch him. The only way he's going to be stopped is if he makes a mistake...

[yenhoi]

huh? You sound like YOU know something. Someone should turn you in.

[Ralek]

Bows and arrows are very very dangerous. I think i read somewhere that back in the medival times a castle with just like 600 archers defeated 5000 people cuase they just used their long bows to shoot people as they came up to the castle. Bows and arrows are just as dangerous as guns.

If your going to ban guns then you might as well ban bows and arrows while your at it. Bows and arrows can get through metal detectors and everything unless your arrow has metal tip. Like half of the world was conqured using bow and arrows by Genghis Kahn.

[Ralek]

Whoever is shooting might get caught because i think bullets have serial numbers on them or somehting. And they keep track of who bought what serial numbers?

But he might have filed off the serial numbers.

[old jong]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :rolleyes: ...Shut up Rolls!...You are not helping your cause here!

[Ralek]

hey. This might solve the crime. If they would just check the serial numbers of the bullets theuy could have the guy cuaght already. Unless he didn't buy his own bullets from a store.

And i think Shot guns shells don't have serial number on the pellets. So if you use a shotgun they can't tell who the pellets belong to. I think.

[old jong]

Imagine if bullets would have serial numbers!....I guess after the last wars,and Chicago gangster era, a bullet should have number: 17364596068857463552387485960788675645364758676576 58768867564534220797886577466355343856968857466352 41234857566453395968676665545342345607978856775664 3537475665768878799585766455344243 on it!...You need a veryyyyyyyy long bullet!....Now shut up!:rolleyes:

[MightyB]

I'm beginning to wonder if this is a terrorrist attack.

The round is a .223 which is pretty much a standard assault rifle round. I believe that's the calibur of a M16 or an AR15.

[KC Elbows]

MightyB,
I was wondering the same thing. With the availability of guns in the US, and some of the earlier reports that they were looking for two people(driver and shooter), it got me thinking.

After all, they got as many people as a suicide bomber might expect to get.

However, it'll probably turn out to be some guy who hasn't been right ever since they cancelled "Square Pegs", and is out for revenge.

[yenhoi]

I think LEGEND has something to do with this.

Terrorism?!

I herd the Coast Guard is working on it tho. ;)

[Stranger]

lol@ Old Jong! :D

[Budokan]

Rolls, bullets dont' have serial numbers. Jeez, I'm so frightened by the fact your mental capacity is a product of our modern educational system....

Your professor isn't much better. He's really going out on a limb by proclaiming this guy to be a serial killer, isn't he? What next great announcement will he make: The sky is blue? :rolleyes:

LOL @ the "Square Pegs" reference. Now that would produce a self-make killing freak, wouldn't it? *crazed look enters Budokan's eyes* All I know is "The View" better not ever be canceled....!

[brothernumber9]

one of the shootings happened at a shell station half a block from where i train, I go to that station all the time. Now everytime I'm getting gas in that area I look like an idiot cuz I'm weaving around and not standing still like some paranoid tard, its crazy, you start feeling like your in a video game and you don't know when duke nukem is gonna turn the corner and start blastin your a@@. they need to catch this bama(s) and clip him/her/them. When they get whoever done it they shouldn't kill em right away but stick em in the pen for a minute and let some 60 year old ed edd and eddy lookin creep to stick em in a buffalo stance. Then let them run in a fenced hunting area and let the victim's families hunt em down.

[KC Elbows]

Actually, technically it's not likely it's a serial killer, but instead, a mass murderer. From what I understand, there's a distinction when it comes to killers. Mass killers wake up one day and decide to kill a whole bunch of people, and don't stop til they're either knee deep in their entrails from police fire, or on their way to death row.

Serial killers kill periodically over a longer period of time, usually in a ritualistic manner.

The only case for this person being a serial killer would be if this were at the end of his killing career, where he's killed periodically, been able to control the urge less and less, and finally is going out one last time to get caught.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by brothernumber9
one of the shootings happened at a shell station half a block from where i train, I go to that station all the time. Now everytime I'm getting gas in that area I look like an idiot cuz I'm weaving around and not standing still like some paranoid tard, its crazy, you start feeling like your in a video game and you don't know when duke nukem is gonna turn the corner and start blastin your a@@. they need to catch this bama(s) and clip him/her/them. When they get whoever done it they shouldn't kill em right away but stick em in the pen for a minute and let some 60 year old ed edd and eddy lookin creep to stick em in a buffalo stance. Then let them run in a fenced hunting area and let the victim's families hunt em down.

lol yeah that duke nukem is a riot.

[LEGEND]

My professor is an ex FBI profiler...she revealed more than that...
he's prob. white...
had past military training OR a marksman enthusiast...
currently UNEMPLOYED...
this started cause he must have been turned down from a career position etc...SWAT or SPECIAL FORCEs or something...
he has a police scanner to monitor police activities...
at this point he's playing a cat and mouse game...
if he gets caught oh well...
has no remorse...
prob. can interact socially very well unlike the unabomber...
has a giant ego...
currently single...
will prob. call in to report bogus info for FUN...
will deny totally not having involvement up to the jury trial...
is methodical...
prefers target near the various 495...i 95 highway for quick gettaways...
he's not a MASS MURDER...he's a SERIAL KILLER...he's picking his target randomly...with the exception of the kid...he did it to play with the GOV decision to keep schools open!
Gentlemen...
we have a RED DRAGON sick puppy!
Every time he offs someone...
He's the first one to watch CNN...FOXNEWS etc...to see his ACHIEVEMENT!

[rogue]

Legend, what's her success rate? Profiling is getting like fortune telling, the hits get counted more than the misses. No offense but she's stating the obvious. Is she giving you any info that sharing would be a bad idea? Have you met up with any good old police detectives yet? John Douglas?

Still a great read about the profiles of terrorists. (http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Sociology-Psychology%20of%20Terrorism.htm) Which is what this guy is anyway.

[LEGEND]

Like she said she doesn't have all the info. in terms of forensic ect...but she came up with a descent profiling that matches up with the current profile on this freak. He's not a terrorist cause he hasn't called in regarding an POLITICAL AGENDA.

[rogue]

Legend, that's a pretty standard profile. Hopefully this will be the perps last night on earth and we'll see how good she did. Profiling is an interesting art, the main problem with it's use is it can create a box around what the police are looking for and the criminal is outside of it. Got to see this happen when a friends brother got murdered.

He may not have a political agenda but he is terrorizing the area.

What's your major? Stay safe Leg.

[LEGEND]

Rogue administration of justice! LOL...I'm taking a PROFILING class rite now. At one point as you guys know I wanted to be a police officer...but plans change...I should be finished in a 1.5 years. Anywayz...yeah...I'm staying indoors for awhile...LOL. This guy is a nutcase...he's just randomly picking peeps off. Hopefully he makes a mistake somewhere along the line. With the public awareness of this case...he's quite different from the other serial killers( Ted Bundy and others )...he's not trying to be on da DL about his killings. He's enjoying the SPOTLIGHT.

[MightyB]

"He's not a terrorist cause he hasn't called in regarding an POLITICAL AGENDA."

I would say that targeting random civilians in the vincinity of the nation's capital is the agenda. The idea of terrorrism is to disrupt the daily activity of the general populace. The notion of getting shot while doing something mundane is a big motivator to change one's daily habits. for example-- "hmm, I think I'll go jogging today, but there's a possibility I'll get shot. What's on Oprah?" If this goes on much longer, the city will literally shut down. This has actually been more effective than the Sept. 11th attack in creating fear in the general public. Plus, the reports of a second person point to some sort of organized plot.

[dwid]

What is the precedent for a serial killer striking from a great distance? From my understanding, part of what does it for a serial killer is how up close and personal it is.

Further, ritual is a big part of serial murder. Where is the ritual here? The only commonality here is the caliber of the rifle.

Serial killers generally stick with a particular population. This guy is across the board.

He's more reminiscent of that guy that shot all those people from the UT Austin building than any serial killer I've ever read about.

I'm not saying he definitely isn't a serial killer, but if he is, then it's going to really expand the criteria for inclusion in that group.

[Stranger]

Just because the killers are a sniper team does not mean that they do not have a ritual they perform before killing. I don't understand how one could conclude that there is no ritual from the manner in which the people are killed.

Proximity to one's victim has nothing to do with serial killing, unless that is part of the ritual.

[KC Elbows]

And the guy who shot people from the UT building was a mass murderer, not a serial killer.

The thing that makes a killer a serial killer is not randomness, but the serial nature of it, the ritualistic side.

This is nothing like Red Dragon, or Manhunter, or the book Red Dragon. First off, that's total fiction. Hannibal Lector is not supposed to be an accurate representation of a serial killer, he's like Dracula: a sleek, exotic boogie man.

BTW, no one jumped to lay claim to 9/11, or at least, no one who did it laid claim to it. Does that make 9/11 a serial killing? I don't think so.

It probably is a domestic nutcase, but does it really matter whose bullets they are? People get shot either way.

Serial killers don't just start out killing 6 people at separate scenes in one day, they progress to that kind of loss of self control.

As for the distance thing, there have been serial killers who sniped people, but again, there was ritual to it and time separating the killings.

[Stranger]

You can't assume because the attacks are coming frequently that they are not the act of a serial killer. Perhaps the ritual or pattern/series demands the pace be this quick (ie. lunar cycles, apocalyptic visions, etc.)

I don't know if these people are serial killers, spree killers, or terrorists. I can't see how some of the posters have made such firm conclusions with minimal information. There is enough info to do a probable profile, but it is really speculation and not definitive enough to close off portions of the investigation at this time IMHO.

[KC Elbows]

No firm conclusion, just idle speculation. I forgot about "spree killers".

The reason I think that, if it is a serial killer, it's one who's killed quite a bit before, is that serial killers ride the high of their acts, and as they kill more, the high becomes less, so they have to increase the frequency of the killings to achieve the high they originally experienced the first time they killed.

Other than that, it's speculation. However, half of these so-called profilers do nothing but ride old assumptions not based on evidence at hand, the white male thing being prime among them. Since most serial killers are white males, is it really an art to ride a statistic like that? Basically, that's the first thing half of these profilers do, ride statistics, and then they don't contribute much. I'd hate to be a good profiler(aside from the morbidness of the job), because there's so many hacks with degrees out there.

My wife has become a pro at spotting bad profilers on the New Detectives show. She'll be like, "Well let's see, the killer is known to drive an old truck with manure in it, he eats human livers, and mister profiler says that he's gonna be someone who has a hard time relating to people, imagine that:rolleyes: !"

Mrs. Elbows is so wise sometimes.

[rogue]

More of the obvious? (http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-sniper-shootings-geoprofiling1007oct07,0,679231.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines) In the old days didn't they just use a map, some pins with flags on them and some yarn? The good part is the larger the sample with this product the better the accuracy.:rolleyes:

[dwid]

I actually saw a program about this software. It's a lot more complicated than the article indicates. The map is much more specific than the stick-pin method. In one instance in which it was used, it projected a high likelihood that a killer lived in a home in a very small neighborhood in spite of the killer having a range that went substantially beyond this. When combined with other information profilers came up with (the killer was likely involved in law enforcement), the method was critical in narrowing the search down to one prime suspect.

Statistics are often common sense, but not all common sense is statistically valid. It looks ridiculously simple after the fact, but if this stuff didn't work, they wouldn't depend on it so much.

[KC Elbows]

In my opinion, the Amanda laws and other such laws that increase access to potential witnesses early on have done more to capture these nutcases than profilers. IMO, profiling is a small, though potentially important, part of these cases, and has gotten too much of the focus at the detriment of other methods.

What I wonder is how plausible it would be to enact laws like the Amanda laws for adult abductions. A number of abductors who, in the past, probably wouldn't have been caught til years later, were caught under the Amanda laws, and I can't think of any other time in my life that this was true.

[Stranger]

A real good movie on serial killing/profiling is "Citizen X". Based on true events, it covers the lengthy investigation into Russia's worst serial killer and features actors Max von Sydow and Donald Sutherland. The story not only reveals the crimes of a savage pedophile / canibal / murderer who rang up a staggering death toll, it also tracks the transition of the Soviet State to the Russian Republic and the bureaucratic impact these political forces had on the investigaion.

[Chang Style Novice]

MD sniper to NRA -- "Thanks a bunch!" (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/07/national/07GUNS.html)

The technology exists to create a national ballistic fingerprint system that would enable law enforcement officials to trace bullets recovered from shootings, like those fired by the Washington-area sniper, to a suspect.

Such a system would have been of great use in the Washington case, in which six people were shot to death, because so far bullet fragments are virtually the only evidence.

But because of opposition by the gun industry and the National Rifle Association, only two states have moved to set up a ballistic fingerprint system, and Congress has prohibited a national program, experts say.

"I definitely think that the technology is there, and it has been refined to the point where it is cost effective," said Joe Vince, a former chief of the crime guns analysis branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

"It would not be an imposition on the manufacturers or law enforcement or citizens, so I'm all for it," said Mr. Vince, who is now president of Crime Gun Solutions, a consulting company in Frederick, Md.

Now, the police can tell only whether bullet fragments or shell casings found at a crime scene match one another and come from the same gun. This information helps establish whether only one weapon was involved.

But without the gun itself, the police cannot go the next step and use this information to try to trace the shooter.

Even the technology that enables the firearms bureau to match bullet fragments or shell casings to one gun is new. A system was installed in 1999 after encouragement by the Clinton administration, Mr. Vince and other experts said.

This system, known as the National Integrated Ballistics Information Network, optically scans the markings on bullets or shell casings, converting them into an electronic signature. This information is stored in a database and can be retrieved by computers in 235 police departments around the nation.

Gun control advocates and some law enforcement authorities like Mr. Vince have long advocated taking the next step, requiring gun manufacturers to keep an electronic record of the markings from bullets and shell casings when new guns are test fired. This data would be kept with the serial numbers of the guns.

With this information, the agency would be able to trace bullets and shell casings found at a shooting site to the gun maker and eventually to the buyer, said Mr. Vince and another former high ranking firearms bureau official.

But the National Rifle Association has opposed this, calling it tantamount to a national gun registry. The group succeeded in getting a provision in the 1968 federal Gun Control Act outlawing any national gun registry.

"This is just another example of N.R.A. paranoia about gun registration, which prevents effective law enforcement," said Dennis Henigan, the legal director of the Brady Campaign Against Gun Violence.

Only Maryland and New York require gun makers to provide test-fired samples of bullets and shell casings when they sell a gun. Their programs have had limited effectiveness because they are new and because guns used in crimes could have been sold in so many other states.

[KC Elbows]

How irritating.:mad:

God forbid we be able to prevent deaths from guns.

<liberal rant>
Everyone keeps saying "Guns don't kill people: people kill people." All I have to ask is, if we know people are killing people, why are we giving them guns?
</liberal rant>

Well, seeing as there's other things in the news, I'm sure THAT article will just get glossed over, cause somehow having a fingerprint of a gun that is registered anyway is a problem for a few dumb****s at the NRA.

That's the problem with organizing people into big groups. Then you have big groups of people, and people are stupid, so stupid things happen in very large scales. Just look at TKD.:D

[Budokan]

KC, your Mrs. Elbows sounds like she has a lot going on upstairs re: the ability of profilers. But, I gotta ask, if she's as smart as you say she is, what brought about the lapse in judgement that made her marry you...? :D

If you take a look at these profiles they're pretty broad. John Edwards (that fake psychic who preys on mourning people and pretends to contact the dead...for a large sum of money) uses much the same scattershot idea.

Profilers serve a purpose in that they're able to synthesize available information about a crime or series of crimes and put it all together into a "profile". But let's not delude ourselves, here, a person who eats human livers isn't likely to be a suave, upstanding citizen who relates well with people. You don't need a Ph.D. to figure that one out...:rolleyes: Unfortunately, some of these profilers pretend that the info they're giving out is like gold.

[Black Jack]

The .223 is not just a military round, its pretty common across the board with sporting rifles in general, nothing special about that cartridge to speak about.

This sniper does not need military training to hit these targets either, this is not "The Rock" with cqb tactics, its pre-planned shots as one would do in hunting deer, a person with some solid range time and experiance with a high-powered rifle can make those shots, hunters do it all the time.

If I had to guess I would say serial killer, not a terrorist attack, there have been cases like this in the past, like the Winchester Dart Man and others who have used sniper tactics to kill there victims, from a great range.

Ohh and for the dolt who said ban guns, well you either must be retarded or from britian, or does both count as one term????

Have not missed much here.......

[KC Elbows]

"KC, your Mrs. Elbows sounds like she has a lot going on upstairs re: the ability of profilers. But, I gotta ask, if she's as smart as you say she is, what brought about the lapse in judgement that made her marry you...?"

That's the advantage of Eastern block mail order brides who are afraid to get deported. You should try it sometime.

Don't even get me started on John Edwards. "Let's see, there's someone over here who had a family member in the military, the abuser's name started with a D or had a nickname with a D in it, I'm seeing pie, maybe a baker or something." And of course, someone pops up and says "My brother loved pie, and I remember him always playing with toy guns".:rolleyes:

[KC Elbows]

Black Jack,
I'll assume I'm the dolt you're talking about, though I just inferred that more gun control might be a good thing. However, you've got to admit that it's assinine to fight fingerprinting of guns that are already registered, which is what the NRA did.

And if it weren't for the British, there would be no Monty Python, and without Monty Python, there would be no more funny men in drag, and then where would you be?:p :D

[rogue]

The reason Mrs Elbow seems so smart is that she read the exchange about profilers that Legend and I had the night before.:p


It would not be an imposition on the manufacturers or law enforcement or citizens, so I'm all for it," said Mr. Vince, who is now president of Crime Gun Solutions, a consulting company in Frederick, Md. Hmmm, any guesses on who would make a tidy profit off of gun fingerprinting?:rolleyes: Beware of consultants offering free advice.:p

[KC Elbows]

Mrs. Elbows, while blackmailed into marrying Mr. Elbows in order to gain citizenship, is still far too smart to hang out on this forum and talk with people who can't decide if they are a tae kwon DOHist or a tai chi hippy.:p :D

[LEGEND]

Rogue...lol...hey I agree with some peeps on the forum...he has struck more fear than 9/11! I live here and u'll see me RUN FAST to class tomorrow!!! No out door eating either.

But yeah...he's def. some psycho nut job...so far his motivation seems to be GRATIFICATION from watching CNN...FOXNEWS...etc...protray him as an EXPERT shot! I don't know why u guys are jumping all over PROFILING TACTICs...it's one of many tools in law enforcement activities. LOL...if u guys think u can do better than some of the peeps in FBI. He's chilling rite now...but the URGE for him to be on the NEWS will arise again! Let's hope he can get caught so I can have starbucks frappacino again.

[KC Elbows]

I'm not bagging on the FBI, I'm bagging on some of these celebrity profilers that you see on the New Detectives and such. Basically, there's some of them that say "See, I told you that cannibal would have a thing for knives" when the case is done, get all famous, meanwhile there's scores of agents who did the real work, including some profiling, to actually catch the killer.

Also, notice how most serial killers caught on that show actually were wanted before they got profiled, or got caught for reasons totally unrelated to the profiling? Profiling is a good tool, but it doesn't catch all that many killers that aren't out to get caught anyway. Serial killers have the advantage in that they were either seen killing someone, or not. Past that, it's an uphill battle for investigators until more technology/better methods become available.

[LEGEND]

TARROT CARD left at the school shooting says, "I AM GOD!"...what is he the Joker now???

[brothernumber9]

if the feds would just enlist the help of morgan freeman then all this would be over in about 2 hrs.

[KC Elbows]

:D

With the help of the lead actress from that sho "the profiler", it would be over in an hour, but the average IQ in that area would drop about 50 points.

[LEGEND]

Rumor has it he just hit a guy in manassas at 9pm today...at a gas station. the man is dead! More news to come.

[tnwingtsun]

Now thats insane!

What if you happen by chance to spot the shooter in question?

You are unarmed,are you going to rely on you MA training to take out this POS against his .223/5.56X45 chambered firearm?

If you're armed you may have a chance to take the SOB out( or DOB).

Once again there are so many people that are screaming Ban firearms!

Its the NRA's fault for going against the " The technology exists to create a national ballistic fingerprint system that would enable law enforcement officials to trace bullets recovered from shootings, like those fired by the Washington-area sniper, to a suspect."

As Chang quoted above.

If you have any knowledge about reloading it would be a simple
matter to defeat this system.

What the NRA(AND I AM) is saying is where does it stop????
One more law,then another and so on.
Their goal is to ban ALL firearms and thats not going to stop the killing!

Question,what is the reported estimated longest range these shootings in the DC area that have happened?

The big bad .223/5.56X45 high powered round,although it has come from its 55 grain specs(Varmit round) to its now 62 grain specs its not concidered a "High Power Round",ask the Marines that used this round in 1983 in Beirut,they couldn't stop the crazed guy
behind a windshield(at point blank) before he blew up 200 plus US servicemen.

There are so many variables in this case not to mention the disinformation that the perp and law Inforcment may be feeding to the public.

I choose to rely on my right to carry rather than the powers that be(some of the left-wing members may hate to admit that),if Munich 1972 didn't wake you up then sorry for you,but as long as I live I'll continue to carry and do the best to defend myself and my family,who knows,this could be a left-wing/right-wing/IRA
sniper team hired by parties invovled in 911 or just another
wacko.

[Liokault]

Now thats insane!


What if you happen by chance to spot the shooter in question?



The way it works is that first theres much less chance of a guy getting a gun in the first place.

And second....you call the police ijut.

Personaly i do not care that you all want to keep your guns.....Im finding this whole sniper thing kind of funny right now and wouldnt want you to do anything to help your selfs and spoil my fun>

[Stranger]

Liokault,

I can understand if you don't personally agree with the firearm laws in the US.

I can understand if you are upset with some of the anti-British posts in response to the "gun control" idea.

I can't understand how you can say
I'm finding this whole sniper thing kind of funny right now and wouldn't want you to do anything to help your selfs and spoil my fun.

At the end of the day, children and other innocent people are being shot down by rifle fire. To say that the events are "funny" is, I believe, a poor choice of words and/or misdirectd anger.

[Daredevil]

I'm very much for VERY strict gun control laws, but I have to agree with Stranger here. If these (and similar) killings happen partly because or even in spite of American gun laws, it is anything but funny.

I hope they catch the sick ****.

I'd like to see some statistics about the state of firearm laws and firearm related killings actually. I know shootings are pretty **** rare in Finland and here the whole general attitude is different towards firearms.

[Royal Dragon]

<liberal rant>
Everyone keeps saying "Guns don't kill people: people kill people." All I have to ask is, if we know people are killing people, why are we giving them guns?
</liberal rant>

Reply]
So we can shoot back when we are attacked by sick freaks like this guy in Maryland, THAT's why. If you can't fight back, THEY win and we die. Guns or no Guns, we need to be armed to survive, and especially so in certain neigborhoods. Since the Bad guys have them, and allways will reguardless of the law, we need them too.

Reagan was shot in an area that Banned Guns. If the laws worked, how come his body guard amost died in that deal??


>>Well, seeing as there's other things in the news, I'm sure THAT article will just get glossed over, cause somehow having a fingerprint of a gun that is registered anyway is a problem for a few dumb****s at the NRA.

Reply]
The problem, is one finger prints are easily changed, and two if a gun is stolen, then it's prints will STILL not point to the shooter, and you will end up convicting an innocent more often than not. Let say a Gun is stolen by the teenage freind of you son. You haven't taken the gun hobby seriously in years, and 9 months go by before you know it's gone. You find out by being arrested and charged for murder. You have no aliby because your Kids were out with their friends, and your wife was at Areobics.

Anyway you look at it, the victem would have died, only now an innocent is in jail, a family is ruined AND a victem is killed.

Many people let their guns sit idle for years, and hardly think about them unless a burglar enters the home. The senario above is not a random possiblity, but a probabilty.

No time for spell chck (Like I'd do it anyway
:rolleyes: )

[MightyB]

Something about gun control...

Ive been reading Thomas Jefferson's Monticello book. In it he describes the perfect exercise as a long walk with a gun. Very Zen, Very Zen indeed...

[Liokault]

So we can shoot back when we are attacked by sick freaks like this guy in Maryland, THAT's why. If you can't fight back, THEY win and we die. Guns or no Guns, we need to be armed to survive, and especially so in certain neigborhoods. Since the Bad guys have them, and allways will reguardless of the law, we need them too.


So every one haveing access to a gun is stoping guys in washington being picked off by this sniper?


You just like guns dont you and you feel afraid that someone is going to take ypour gun off you.

Hell i dont care......im in the UK where NO one gets shot!!!!

(i refer you back to my above statistic from a previouse post)

[Daredevil]

So we can shoot back when we are attacked by sick freaks like this guy in Maryland, THAT's why. If you can't fight back, THEY win and we die. Guns or no Guns, we need to be armed to survive, and especially so in certain neigborhoods. Since the Bad guys have them, and allways will reguardless of the law, we need them too.

And this is why we have these guys called the police in our fair country. :)

Tighter gun laws will make guns more rare even among criminals with time.

The ownership of guns and the god given right to shoot back just seems to be very much part of the American mentality. I don't mean that as an insult, but rather as an observation. However, I know I would personally think twice before living in a country with such values regarding firearms.

[KC Elbows]

I'm in agreement with Daredevil. As RD has suggested, a large number of gun owners have their guns in closets and forget about them. I cannot see how having amateurs firing at the same time as the sniper helps the situation.

In my opinion, and it is my opinion, but it seems to me, as much as the NRA likes to put forward how horrible it is in the UK with it's restrictive gun laws, that the british would have a much easier time finding and imprisoning this sniper due to the fact that, in Britain, owning such a rifle, whether illegaly or not, would be notable, something people would remember and report under the circumstances.

In the US, it's not quite the same. I'm willing to bet that this sniper has showed off his rifle to friends, but why would they remember another rifle?

I still say that more restirctive gun laws makes for less guns on the street. Opponents say that criminals would just find other sources, but how many other sources are cheaper than the second hand market? Since I don't think there's any cheaper sources, I think that more restrictive gun laws would mean that criminals would have to spend more to get an equal number of guns.

I'm curious to see what the statistics say about the number of crimes actually stopped by citizens with guns, because such things seem to me more like the fantasy and the exception, and not the rule.

In any case, handgun vs. sniper is not a smart bet, and I don't really think more sniper rifles on the street is the solution, since it is my firm belief that there are too many nuts with guns to start with.

[Chang Style Novice]

Jebus, Liokault, I'm in favor of gun control and tracking myself (and wonder how RD is so sure that the fingerprint system can be easily beaten) but look up the word "schadenfruede" and take a good look at yourself, ok?

[KC Elbows]

Yeah, I don't understand the method here for beating the fingerprint system. Switching bullets shouldn't affect it, and I thought that's what one poster said was the way to beat it.

[Stranger]

There are at least a couple of ways to beat the "fingerprint" system with varying degrees of sucess.

[KC Elbows]

As for the omnipotence of guns, might I point out that a few days back, the military was fired at WHILE DOING LIVE ROUND TRAINING, and one was still injured and one still died.

So, trained units all carrying assault rifles, some possibly carrrying heavy weapons, all well versed on acting as a unit, and they lose one.

Now, picture the gun toting citizen version of this story. Remember, these are the same citizens that occassionaly show up in News of the Weird. Not trained to act as a unit, undoubtedly carrying handguns, bullets everywhere, and of course thay wouldn't all be conveniently in one area so that they wouldn't have to worry about hitting each other.

Considering that probably one or two of those gun owners would be the type who would leave their gun in a shoebox for their kids to find, I think the safest person in that scenario would be the sniper.

Following this would be the lawsuits.

BTW, how many people here have actually seen an illegaly bought gun that was not originally a registered gun in the US? The only one I ever saw was an old collectors piece, still dangerous, but in the hands of an antique collector and on the way to getting registered. I'm just curious who actually knows how easy it is to acquire such weapons.

Also, where do the guns illegally owned in the UK come from?

[The Willow Sword]

He is in his Early 40's a veteran of the gulf war.
he is a white male. stands about 5'8.
dark hair.

his motive: no poloitical motive other than that he is influenced by charles whitman's methods.
from what i can tell and this is purely a stab at the mind of this guy, is that he has been seeing on the tv, like we all have ,,this paranoia that at any moment we will be attacked by terrorists,,since 9-11 there has been this paranoia that there will be a second attack, so far none. but the paranoia is there,,we thought that new years after 9-11 would spur an attack,,,4th of july,,etc. everyone is on edge.
i believe that this guy is giving us a reason ,,or at least the citizens of washington DC a reason to be paranoid and scared.

i wont state the obvious about him for we all know the obvious. location,,proficiancy at a rifle etc.
his mind is very calm and is fueled now by the attaention and his calling card ( a tarot card;the death card with a message stating that he is god). it will take a while for this guy to get caught.

so thats my profile of him,,,anyone else care to try?

MRTWS

[Ryu]

THIS looks like a job for the Chivalric Bully!! :D

[Liokault]

Ok My profile of this guy.


Average height.

Average weight (ie prob obese).

Huge collection of guns for sport and general killing.

Long term crush on buffy the vampire slayer.

Long term subscription to BIG TRUCK magazine.

Belives in the individuals right to have as many guns as they can handle.

Worked in McDonalds as a youth.




Hmmmm does not narrow it down much as i think that covers most American males and quite a lot of American females.

[KC Elbows]

Liokault, I think you just described Merryprankster. And I do recall him saying that the next time someone brought up eye gouges in reference to grappling, people were gonna get shot.:eek:

[Liokault]

So how many of you Americans are now walking to your are faster?

Any of you not going to get "gas" as offton as you used to?

Feel like cross hairs on your back?

But you still feel that every one should have access to a gun right?

[Ryu]

No I don't. I feel that only the most responsible citizens should have access.......

Criminals get guns illegally. That's what makes them criminals.


Ryu

[neptunesfall]

Originally posted by Liokault
........................Hmmmm does not narrow it down much as i think that covers most American males and quite a lot of American females.

yeah...that's accurate :rolleyes:

[Liokault]

Criminals get guns illegally. That's what makes them criminals.

So the crim cant go and buy a gun....do you think that they are all smuggled in from south america? No they are stolen from normal American guys who thought it would be neat to have a semi automatic with hollow point rounds under his pillow "just in case".

[Daredevil]

Criminals are not a caste of their own, not a breed all their own living in the seedy underbelly of out society ... they're sometimes normal citizens driven to acts of crime, by whatever circumstances or character traits. Folks in seriously organized crime and gands might differ somewhat, but still ... what the heck is going to stop a criminal from buying a gun from a store (provided he has no record)? Or what is going to stop a citizen with a gun becoming a criminal? Or any number of scenarios which will take legal weapons into criminal hands?

Less guns on the market means less guns in the hands of criminals, EVEN IF they still smuggle some firearms into the country. Less firearms in criminal hands means less shootings.

Undoubtedly it is easier to watch the borders for smuggling than try to control the whole population and still maintain borders.

Besides, if the whole attitude/reality of criminals changes towards one with less guns, its going to be a positive effect. If this happens along with strict firearm laws and a negative attitude towards them in general, the effect is going to be even better.

To use Finland as an example, I'd say the most highly armed criminal groups are the biker gangs and maybe the russian mafia. However, we don't see those guys using those guns that much (with some notable, rare and well publicized, exceptions usually leading to consequences for them) since they'd invite a world of trouble and the attention of law enforcement.

Actually, and since there was talk of gypsies on here of late, the latest shooting incident involved gypsies settling disputes among themselves. Well, turned out to be a bad move for them.

Before that there was a rather viciously executed attack on a van transporting money. These guys had assault rifles. Turned out to be a bad move for them as well.

These are rare incidents however. The most trouble of this sort is usually caused by biker gangs (chapters of Bandidos and Hell's Angels used to cause trouble for each other a few years back).

And neither situation had gun-toting civilians playing vigilantes, but were solved by the police.

[Royal Dragon]

It's nice that you live in heaven, but in the US, the Criminal element IS a sub cuture of society, and the DO prey on the rest of us, sometimes just for the fun of it.

My current girlfreind grew up in a bad neighbor hood, and the only thing that ROUTINELY protected her from rape, robbery and home invasions was her GUN. With out it, she would surely be dead, or a victem of multiple rapes over the years. On several occasion, just brandishing it sent the intruder out the window tripping over his pants.

You have ALOT to learn aboout the criminal element my friend.

[tnwingtsun]

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted."

-- farewell address by former U.S. President (and General) Dwight Eisenhower, January 17, 1961.


The following gives me a strong urge to do some serious shopping..........

Currently on YahooNews:
Lawmakers Urge FTC to Probe Sniper Weapon SalesThu Oct 10, 3:50 PM ETWASHINGTON (Reuters) - Several Democratic lawmakers on Thursday urged the Federal Trade Commission to investigate the marketing of military sniper rifles to civilians, noting that such a weapon may be involved in the recent Washington area shootings.
Rep. John Conyers of Michigan, the top Democrat on the U.S. House of Representatives Judiciary Committee , and three fellow House Democrats wrote in a letter to the FTC that sniper weapons are different from standard hunting rifles because they are designed to strike a target from a distance.
"Their accuracy and range capabilities make these weapons among the most dangerous available today," the lawmakers said. "They can hit targets accurately one mile away and can inflict damage to targets up to four miles away.",BULL$HIT!!!!
Conyers noted that the FTC did a study of entertainment industry marketing practices and violence after the Columbine school shootings in 1999.
Gun control advocates gained momentum in Congress immediately after several publicized shootings in U.S. schools but foes of new controls were able to defeat the initiatives.

[tnwingtsun]

Personally, I think Calypso Harry has snapped his cap. What an outrageous and unfair thing to say - he basically called Powell a "House ******".
Crappy insinuation in my book.




Political correctness is so pervasive that when someone actually says was they really think, it's assumed they've lost their mind. I think it's kinda refreshing, whether the guy is right or wrong, whether he's insulting or not, to actually tell it like he thinks it is. If Powell is the sort of person his reputation and standing indicate, then what Belafonte said about him does him no harm. I mean really, look at ol' Ted Nugent; he says all kinds of things in all caps and in full voice, but if he's crazy, he's strictly crazy like a fox.

Hey.....it's America. Harry can say anything he wants about Powell. I read a news report that said Powell laughed about Belafonte's comments. Shows he's got class instead of acting all indignant and pulling an Al Sharpton.

As for Nugent. I don't agree with everything he says but he handled the morons on Crossfire like they were schoolkids. He may come across as full of bluster but it's all calculated and backed by solid points of debate. The guy is much sharper than people give him credit for.

Belafonte should stick to doing what he knows something about- singing about having somebody count his bananas for him.

"DAAAAAAY-0! DAAY-AAY-AAY-O!"

[tnwingtsun]

If Powell ever runs for president, I will vote for him. I met him when he spoke at my college graduation in `88, and have admired him ever since. He`s a pretty level headed guy, combat vet who is reluctant to put soldiers in harm`s way unless absolutely necessary, and has worked for all he has, unlike the "revs" jesse, louis, and al who rode racism to the top of their group. Powell is a colored man who is to be respected. Belafonte, Jackson, Sharpton, and Farrahkan are the ******s thru and thru.

Born and raised in SC, living in NC....yes I know the difference between colored folk and ******s. Too bad belafonte doesn`t.

Bush again in 2004, Powell in 2008!

[tnwingtsun]

I wanna know what kinda convoluted monkey had a field day with this thing in photoshop....





__________________
Discount Load Bearing Equipment and Firearms Accessories.
www.loadbearer.com


Other cool stuff:
www.haveitcheaper.com



Arn't guns Illegal in DC?????????

I thought so...So how could that happen..........Liberals think NO GUNS MEANS NO CRIMES......

POOR DUMB b-a-st-t-e-rS...........

This guy probably has a criminal recard or at least has had some psyc problems in the past.



__________________
MK ULTRA.....OUT.....

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin, Statesman and Inventor: 1759


Improvise, Adapt, Overcome.....

[tnwingtsun]

I watched The Today Show this morning and Katie Couric was showing an "expert" the 223 shell she was holding...saying " aren't these espically dangrous because the bullet spins when it comes out of the barrel?"

Man these left wing liberals need to get better informed....I can already hear all the soccer moms yelling to get rid of those bad bullets!


Funny how Bill Clinton and Jane Fonda supported the 7.62X39
AK/SKS round to kill the poor people that served their country
at the same time they were buring flags,fonda was trained on a CCCP 23 MM ADA to shoot down her own people that she was wanting "Peace" for,a good way to do it.

By the way,the 7.62X39 round is just a short version of a 7.62X51/.308,the .223/5.56X45 was issued because a grunt could carry more dope


What happened really is trajic, but can't the media report on anything w/ out putting a liberal spin on it? Down here they showed some of the guns that "could have been used". They showed an Izzy LB, and a friggin SL8. First off, the gunman is supposed to be using a .223, and secondly he couldn't afford an SL8 if he's unbalanced enough to be shooting people. Get yer #$%^ straight.

[tnwingtsun]

Can you believe the spin? Oh yes, I believe any anti-gun spin they can possibly use- they will. And Katy Couric saying the bullet spins? Jeez (I thought she was smarter than that), even if, no even tho she is anti.
When I first heard the story and first heard the reports of a "HIGH POWERED RIFLE" possibly a 223, I pictured the next news. It is indeed tragic, and I hope the *******, or *******s are caught and/or killed soon, but the news reports the news with their spin, and it IS gonna be anti-gun everytime. I really wish a brother-in-arms could see the SOB and pop a cap in his mid section, would definitely be a worthy shot. What would the news say then? Probably, they'd still be negative. Probably, they'd try to castrate the good guy, saying he's a human hunter with an evil assault rifle. They are more of a threat to US, than we are to them.

Can I believe it? I always do. Either way, this killer needs to be stopped. He is pro-gunners enemy more than the anti-gunners enemy. What he is doing deserves a trip to hell, quickly. Just for thought, what if the ******* wears a turbine (most likely not), but what if? Repercussions?
Face it, we have very few friends in the press.

brother-in-arms ,if ya haven't been there your words mean nothing,the members in the UK and Finland.

Finland,take a sauna and jump in the frozen lake,

The UK members,thank your powers that be for the SAS/SBS,they can't be everywhere when you need them.

And to the UK members,who do you think spies on you??


The good ole USA!


Who spies on the good ole USA??

The UK intel.



A great trade off.

[tnwingtsun]

I can believe what the media is doing with the feeding frenzy. I just heard that there was another shooting tonight that is suspected of being tied in with the other "sniper" shootings. I feel sorry for the victims, their families, and friends that have to deal with the unfarness of the shootings.

Saying that, I can not believe that the law is saying it could be this rifle, or that rifle. The law needs to get a clue. How many rifles are chambered for the .223 Rem and 5.56X45 Nato round? To many for me to list and I am sure that I would leave a few off. One thing that amazes me is how this shooter is being termed a "sniper". I can say this much, I doubt it is a Mini 14 or any other semi-auto rifle. In my thinking this person is using a bolt gun--if not a Handy Rifle so that he/she can recover their brass. Another point that I find interesting is the lack of people hearing a shot or seeing the person leaving a scene.
A lot of things are not adding up.

Am I the only one that feels that a 200-300 yard shot is not a sniper shot, or even a marksman shot, but a shot fired by someone that can hit a target? Don't get me wrong--this person is a coward, but he has spent sometime behind the rifle.

What gets to me more than anything is that this idiot's, probably a Democrate liberal, actions will spell an end to firearm ownership for all of us law abiding people. Unfortunately, the sheep of this country will not realize until it is to late that it is not firearms that kill but the person behind the firearm. Point proven is Australia and England. Just ask them how crime has lessened since firearms have been collected.


I'm waiting for someone to post what the shooters already know.

Other than the "TV" watchers
:rolleyes:

[Daredevil]

A few comments, then I believe this discussion is pretty much exhausted.


You have ALOT to learn aboout the criminal element my friend.

I believe I am rather well acquinted with the criminal element, actually. I'm not talking out of my ass. However, I'm willing to believe there is a marked difference between the Finnish and American cultures even in this department, so enough of that until I get more experience from across the pond.


Finland,take a sauna and jump in the frozen lake,

I will, though I fail to see the relevance of that to this topic? :)


brother-in-arms ,if ya haven't been there your words mean nothing,the members in the UK and Finland.

Finland has a term of mandatory military service. ;)

Anyway, good luck with catching this ****er, America. Later.

[KC Elbows]

"Arn't guns Illegal in DC?????????

"I thought so...So how could that happen..........Liberals think NO GUNS MEANS NO CRIMES......"

TN, you can't exactly use that as evidence of the failure of gun control when guns are legal scant miles away from DC. In science, that would be the first thing you'd check for before you drew conclusions: is my test contaminated? What you stated above is hyperbole, nothing more. Many of your other points were good, but that one isn't.

I agree with your right to bear arms. Unfotunately, I think it has outgrown its utility. If YOU need arms to fight your government, the fact is that YOU can get them illegaly, just as you say criminals can. After all, if you expect to fight the government with the guns you can legally get, you're gonna have to illegaly modify them anyway.

However, in my opinion, if it comes to fighting our own government with store bought guns, well, law isn't really that important, is it?

I asked a question earlier that got no answer. Where do illegal guns come from in the UK? I'm willing to bet it's from the US and eastern europe(not saying the governments, just smugglers).

[Liokault]

But the number of guns in the UK is tiny.

and illegal guns are hugely expensive.

I would go as far as to say that our gun/population figure is somewhere near our gunrelated death/population figure.....i.e tiny!!!



Got to say that i would not wish this sniper on any country and he is clearly mad but i do belive that there are lessions to be learnt here.