Yiquan vs. Dachengquan Controversy

[Dachengdao]

Hi to all KFO friends!
I think it's time I cleared up some things. First I read some of these threads and I laugh. People are squabling over minor differences in styles and challenging one another to fight. This is not kungfu. Kungfu is not about kicking someone's a**. Kungfu is about saving your own. Kungfu is about being able to defend one's life against not only perps but agains stress, illness, and injury. Sometimes kungfu is about walking away when someone spits in your face, whether literally or figuratively.
All people in this world are like distant relatives. All martial artists are like third cousins. All kungfu artists are like first cousins. We are truly one family, each with our own strengths and weaknesses, but of one blood. When we help each other, we all go higher as a family. When we hurt each other, we keep from progressing.
Yiquan and Dachengquan stylists are brothers. We have the same father, Wang Xuan Zhai. Even though my own website says that these two styles are the same, they are not. I apologize for perpetuating this misinformation, and I want to explain briefly how this occured. When I came to America almost two years ago, I couldn't speak a word of English. Even up until a few months ago, my English was so bad that even the Blacktaoist thought Dachengdao was not really me writing.:D Now that I can read and write English, I understand that a well meaning student that set up my website relied on misinformation because I was unable to articulate. I am in the process of redoing my website to correct some things, but my computer skills are even worse than my English used to be so I have to wait for people to help me out when they have time.:)
Back to the subject at hand... I'm going to post a new thread: "History of Dachengquan" later today or tomorrow. I appreciate everyone's interest and comments so far.

[Leonidas]

Shweet :D Tell me when you finish it.

Back to the issue at hand.......

Every Yiquan site that i went to has -almost- the same info. I think i went to atleast 4 or 5. But anyhow, thanx for clearing that up for me.

.....and I wasn't trying to give anyone hard time if that what it sounded like......

[Stranger]

If you or anybody in the Hsing yi, hsin yi, yiquan, dachengquan, taiki-ken scene would answer these questions, I'd be thankful.

1) Can you also explain the relationship to the Taiki-ken school?

2) How different is the training from Hsing yi (Wang Xuan Zhia's first art , no?)?

3) Where does hsin yi fit in the picture, if at all?

I'm asking for relationships and comparisons because I do not know anything about your style and thought these tools may help my understanding. I am in no way suggesting any similarities or pushing a political agenda.

Thanks in advance.

[HuangKaiVun]

Kung IS about violence.

Most of the time, simply walking away from an encounter is not possible. Backing down from many of these people will result in their coming after you with greater vigor and evil intent.

Only a show of force will deter certain folks from attacking. Just ask any woman who has been assaulted - I teach them.

Unfortunately, some people only learn by being hurt. I have met a great many people like this, people who would do the worst deeds to other people if left unfettered. Adolf Hitler was like this, and look what he did. I've faced quite a few of these in my life, and they'll hunt you down repeatedly if they perceive weakness in you. They will not stop attacking you until you stop them with a show of force.

Distant relatives yes, GOOD CHARACTER NO. Just because you feel brotherhood with a person doesn't mean that he feels brotherhood with you. That's the root of evil in this world, and why we have so much conflict. All of the goodwill on the part of a victim won't stop an aggressor from attacking.

Challenges in kung fu - polite and impolite - are common. The art is built on meeting challenges. When somebody claims to the world that a style and its practitioner sucks, the troublemaker will be CALLED ON IT by the person slandered. That is the price of running one's mouth arrogantly, and China's history is rife with such situations.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with the spirit of peace and brotherhood that dachengdao embraces. Unfortunately, there are many people out there who do NOT share that view. It is THEIR violence that kung fu has guarded against for centuries.

And, dachengdao, I am extremely impressed by your grasp of kung fu and English. When I get the chance to visit you at your school, I shall do so.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Stranger, here's what I know about it:
Taikiken is Kenichi Sawai's version of the teaching he received from Wang Xiang Zhai (WXZ). It has become a kind of japanese branch of Dacheng. I don't think it differs much, only to the extent that each teacher at some point has his/her own interpretation of what he/she was taught.

As for Xingyi, indeed WXZ was a student of the legend Guo Yun Shen. Guo Yun Shen himself started the "stripping off" process in xing yi suposedly during his years in jail: he got rid of the animal forms and a lot of other forms and stuff to keep the essential mechanisms and based his methods on the five element fists as a core. In that regard, WXZ might have been pretty much influenced in the creation of Dacheng, in which he also tried to get rid of what seemed unnecessary or mystical in his method, following what Guo had done with xingyi earlier. Xingyi was definitely a big root for WXZ, even though Dacheng has a very diferent quality of jings (there are jings in Dacheng that I never witnessed in xingyi) and trains them very differently (for WXZ, it seemed that even the 5 fists were some kind of form, so they had to get rid of).

Regarding xinyi, well, I do not think it has really much influence. Li Luo Neng already started modifying his practice a lot, making it somewhat diverging from xinyi (and becoming xingyi), then Guo under him did even more, and finally WXZ changed almost everything...
There doesn't seem to be left much of xinyi in Dacheng, except maybe the core principles that were passed down from xinyi to xingyi to dacheng...

I hope I helped a little, and that somebody will correct me if I said stupid stuffs :-)

[Stranger]

First off, I would like to say at this time, "Thank you Crimson Phoenix." You have been very helpful in answering many of my questions on these forums lately. I appreciate your willingness to share what you know.

I am a little confused about your response concerning hsin yi. I was under the impression that its creation was after that of hsing yi (which I gather is incorrect from your post above). I think you gave me credit for a little more knowledge on the subject than I actually possess, so If you would please explain the relationhip between these arts more thoroughly perhaps things would clear up for me.

Thanks again.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Nah, don't thank me, really, I'm glad I can help...I'm like the moon reflecting the light of the sun without having one of its own when it comes to knowledge...reflecting that of others without possessing some myself :D

OK, I oversimplified a bit...indeed, Ji Ji Ke (Ji Long Feng) called his style Xingyi...it got divided into three branches after his students began teaching (actually, some talk about a fourth branch, the Guangxi branch, that disappeared but had many influences on southern styles as some say):
So you have the Hunan branch (it could be Henan, I'm not 100% sure), which is where the method is called xinyi, or xinyiliuhe. This is supposedly the most orthodox branch, which kept all Ji's teaching, as its head Ma JueLi insisted. It is even sometimes called lao jia. Since it is the most orthodox, it is sometimes taken as a reference point by some historians...
You have the Shanxi branch, also called Dai family xingyi. This method received a lot of influences from other styles, supposedly mongolian wrestling, and thus included more wrestling and grappling...it is said to have influenced in return YingZhaoFanZiQuan.
It is from this branch that Li Luo Neng learnt, and devised his own method that later became the known as the Hebei branch (since Li was from Hebei).
Guo learnt from him, and the changed the style even more, breaking further from the tradition of the orthodox teaching. It is said that Guo already started calling his method Yiquan, even qualifying it as "ziran" (ie natural).
So technically, xingyi was before xinyi, but since the branch called xinyi eventually became the most representative of the original content, it was therefore taken as a starting point.
Hope that helped!
:)

[Stranger]

Crystal clear, thanks.

[Dachengdao]

I was planning to answer Stranger's questions today, but I see Crimson did a better job. Thanks for your interest Stranger!
Leonidas, check out the "History of Dachengquen" thread that I'm posting as soon as I post this. It took me a little longer because I really screwed up the computer yesterday and it's a miracle it's working now. I don't know what I did to mess it up and I certainly don't know what I did to fix it, but when I told you guys before my computer skills were worse than my English used to be, it was no joke!:D

[Xebsball]

You have the Shanxi branch, also called Dai family xingyi. This method received a lot of influences from other styles, supposedly mongolian wrestling, and thus included more wrestling and grappling...it is said to have influenced in return YingZhaoFanZiQuan.

As for the Shanxi Xing Yi Quan there are actually 3 different styles:
- There is Dai family as you mentioned.
- The Guo family, from Guo Weihan.
- Che style, wich is the lineage from Che I Zhai (the guy who acording to the legend hit Guo Yun Shen with a pi quan).

Jareks site have articles on this 3 lineages of Shanxi i mentioned:
http://www.chinafrominside.com

[Dachengdao]

I'm surprised no one else replied to Huang's very well written, thought provoking comments. Does everyone else agree that Kung fu IS violence?!? Think about this for a moment. Really...
...after you've pondered this for a minute or two, let me interject that kung fu is PEACE. Kung fu is SELF DEFENSE. Yes! There are evil people in the world. Yes! there are evil people that practice Martial Arts, even Kung fu. And Yes, there are even evil Masters (so-called "Masters", that is). Kung fu does not seek to destroy evil. How can evil be destroyed? Evil is a necessity - part of the YinYang continuum. Kung fu instead gives you protection from evil. Kung fu is like carrying a loaded gun. Most gun toters conceal their weapon, right? You simply don't pull out a gun for show. If you pull out a gun you better be prepared to use it. Look what's going on in the inner city today. Kids get shot to death for dissing the wrong person. I wrote before that if you're spit in the face, walk away. Are you going to shoot the offender? No! If you have real kungfu, you're going to walk away laughing. Why? Because that stupid fool doesn't know that his life was in your hands and you let him live this time.
Self defense is all about using the smallest amount of force necessary to save your life or someone elses. If you wave your gun around, people may leave you alone, but there's always more out there that think they are bigger and badder than everyone else. Why advertise what you have? Why show all your cards at once? If you saw me in the street, you might mistake me for a day laborer or even delivery boy. A perp might see me as an easy mark. Let them try something! I'm ready. I'm always ready for whatever may go down. I don't look for trouble, but I'm ready to do what it takes to get myself out of it. Even if it's walking away after being insulted. Or even if I have no choice but to walk away from a corpse.

[HuangKaiVun]

Spoken like a MAN, dachengdao.

However, there are many WOMEN out there who have been brutally attacked. My student is one of them.

The ONLY reason she has survived to this day is because she trained in methods that were violent to the core. She learned early on to not pull her punches, and it saved her on many an occasion.

If it wasn't for that training (not under me), she would have been kidnapped by a rapist who assaulted her in broad daylight on a weekday. She successfully defeated the rapist because her instinctive combat conditioning (learned from her father) kicked in.

Had it not been for the violent techniques she learned from her father, this woman would've been raped and killed. Using the "smallest amount of force" would not have saved her from that rapist, a man who outweighed her by at least 100 pounds and was at least a foot taller.

And that's why we train kung fu.

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by Xebsball

As for the Shanxi Xing Yi Quan there are actually 3 different styles:
- There is Dai family as you mentioned.
- The Guo family, from Guo Weihan.
- Che style, wich is the lineage from Che I Zhai (the guy who acording to the legend hit Guo Yun Shen with a pi quan).


And adding to that remember the Song Style, and the Bu Clan style

[Xebsball]

eeek, my bad :D

I forgot Song, but arent Che and Bu technicly the same style?

[Dachengdao]

Yes, I see your point and I feel we're talking about the same thing but from different angles. I maintain that self-defense is using the least amount of force necessary. For a smaller person (male or female, or even a child) to defend themselves against a much larger attacker who intends to do serious harm, the LEAST amount of force may very well be to disable, maime or kill the attacker. Thank God your friend had the training as well as the presence of mind to escape with her life! I can't agree that any one specific combat training can stop an attacker in all situations. I believe any kungfu training that has been internalized - and mind you I'm not talking internal vs. external - will give any person the best chance of escape. For a smaller person who is physically weaker, hand to hand combat is undesirable. This person needs to strike hard and fast and get the heck out of there. Internalized kungfu keeps the attackee calm so that the available options are clear and the body is able to respond naturally. Dachengquan is a gentle, non-combative art. Yet once internalized, it can be quite explosive and even deadly. Watch my late teacher, Wang XuanJie demonstrate on the video clip on my website. www.dachengdao.com Look how relaxed he is throughout the whole process. Maybe we should start a new thread?

[Crimson Phoenix]

Xeb and Felipe, thanks for deepening the ramifications of the Shanxi branch :)

Dachengdao, I doubt I did the job better than you would have, but thanks for the kind comment...and when it comes to pointing out the similarities and differences between Xingyi and Dacheng, you are the man for the job :)

PS: your english is very good...you even sound like a real yankee!!!!!

[Leonidas]

"PS: your english is very good...you even sound like a real yankee!!!!!"

Hell yea.

I too thought one of your students was representing you. You fooled everyone. :D

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by Xebsball
eeek, my bad :D

I forgot Song, but arent Che and Bu technicly the same style?

Yup, Bu learned from Che, but you know that Bu Xuekuan developed the Yuanyang (Mandarin Duck) techniques, so that makes his clan's style unique in itself.

[HuangKaiVun]

My student told me that when she was facing that attacker, there was nothing CALM about her demeanor or combat.

She was a raving wild animal, tearing into this guy so that she could LIVE. "Calm" and "relaxed" had absolutely nothing to do with it. And it WORKED.

Nor could she escape. The man tried to grab her from behind, and she was going to take him down so that he couldn't come after her if she broke away. "Getting the heck out of there" was impossible in the situation, as she told me and most other women will tell you.

But you are right, dachengdao. Training kung fu properly will help reactions like these come out more when they are needed.

[Dachengdao]

Hi Huang,
I again thank you for your thought-provoking reply. The lady of which you speak obviously did the right thing because she has her life. I know how ridiculous it sounds to tell this lady to remain calm and relaxed through this brutal assault. She reacted the right way for her at this time. She utilized the training that was available to her. However, I maintain that if kungfu is internalized, the person will automatically relax and stay calm. Not only that, but will have the best chance of survival. Staying calm and relaxed does not mean that you just stand there and take it. It means your energy is galvanized in order to deflect the negative energy coming towards you. I can write about this until I get carpal tunnel syndrome, but some things have to be seen to be believed. Once again I urge everyone to watch the video clip on my website of Wang Xuanjie deflecting an attack. Of course this is staged, not a real life or death situation, but I maintain that regardless of the style of kungfu studied, if you have good kungfu and if it's internalized, your body will respond naturally and appropriately to any problem encountered.

[fa_jing]

Sorry to interject!

I think that although calm may be best for the very advanced practicioner, there is always a chance that a defender will revert to that "wild" animal, tense state. Therefore, it is necessary to learn a reduced set of techniques and fighting strategy that will work for you, even if you lose your calmness. In other words, even in the "upset" state of mind, you should have access to your basic techniques - in my case, my basic punches and kicks, rear elbow etc. That may be all you have to see you through the day. You may have control over your emotions in some circumstances, but you may lose them under other circumstances. You should not restrict yourself to a fighting strategy that can only be executed with a calm mind.

Also, keep in mind that an attacker may have the "bully" mentality, and be scared off by someone screaming, with blood in their eyes, etc.

[fa_jing]

Of course calmness is ideal, if you lose your awareness while fighting your opponent you may not notice his accomplice coming up from behind, you may not see his weapon, etc. But my point is that you cannot control your mind/emotions 100% of the time, so it is necessary to learn to cope with a situation where you lose mental control, in fact turn around and use it to your advantage if possible.

[Dachengdao]

We're actually on the same page. Just let me clarify that remaining calm is not the same as being passive. You can remain calm while using your elbow to crush an attacker's ribs. By calm, I mean sending your energy down to your tan dien, deep breathing, and keeping your mind free of emotions (especially fear). This will allow your body to identify and utilize all options available. I'm not advocating any one style over another as far as self-defense goes, but I am insisting that it be internalized. By this I mean using your internal energy to execute external moves. Yes this could take years to master if you are only studying external styles without internal enhancements such as taichi, dachengquan, qigong, meditation, or even yoga, to name a few. The more kungfu that goes inside, the easier it is to achieve calmness. I recommend to practice push hands on a regular basis to gage your internal levels and to learn how to read your oponent's. This is more helpful than actual sparring.

[HuangKaiVun]

"Losing one's awareness" has nothing to do with being calm or wild.

If anything, many (not all) people are MORE AWARE in that wild state. My student certainly was, and I get that way too. Events go into slow motion when I'm in that wild state.

Also, the jolt of adrenaline she got from her wild side gave her far more power and speed than she usually had. This is why in my training, the emphasis was always on RELEASING one's wild side and not holding it back. Without it, she wouldn't have had the physical ability to fight that attacker off.

As far as the "reduced techniques" go, that's the way old traditional Chinese kung fu used to be.

[fa_jing]

Thanks to HKV and DCQ for sharing their knowledge. I'm seeing both sides of it! I think these will merge at the highest level - that is what harnessing spiritual force is about. I am sure that a great amount of energy flows through the body in a situation where one's life is in danger. The energy is (ideally) directed, not scattered.

[StickyHands]

How is Dachengquan different than Yi Quan?