Blocking? What do you think

[chen zhen]

Recently I was in my Kung Fu class, in a training lesson. We where being taught how to block proberly, and my sifu saw me doing a block in a deflecting/ redirecting way, and he said I did it wrong. Then he said: "I'm trying to make you (the class) have another view on blocking, a block should be like a punch. It has to destroy the attackers arm."
This goes totally against the principles of Taiji which I trained before. What's your views on hard blocking opposed to parrying?

[Chang Style Novice]

Why block a punch in a way to destroy the arm, when you can grab the arm and throw the guy on his head?

On the other hand, you're sifu probably has his reasons for doing what he's doing, and they're not always immediately obvious in my experience.

[yenhoi]

Many arts teach you to destroy an opponents limb or weapon as it is being used against you.......

Ask your teacher.

[Royal Dragon]

Different arts have different perspectives. Being exposed to difffereing phlosiphies is a good thing.

[Leonidas]

Evasion, redirection, jamming etc is more efficient in my opinion, safer and requires less energy among other things.

What if your opponents is stronger faster and can take more pain and damage than you? or What if your already injured, fatigued, weakened, and you haven't eaten in many days?




What feels right to you is the most important question though?

[LEGEND]

Every style has different ways of doing things! Just see what works for you. GOOD LUCK.

[The Willow Sword]

when your teacher tells you that you are doing something wrong that YOU KNOW that you are doing right. all you have to do is look at him and say"excuse me,,i will try to do it better" in your mind you should be thinking this "you fuking twit,,,screw you and your impractical way of teaching us how to block".

the priciples of yin and yang are at work here and this is what you must understand.

MRTWS

[chingei]

Originally posted by Leonidas

What if your opponents is stronger faster and can take more pain and damage than you? or What if your already injured, fatigued, weakened, and you haven't eaten in many days?



then you're screwed in any case

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, I tend to aggree. In North Tai Tzu it is softer and generally Redirects, Jams or "Blends". Even the Southern division that is much harder and does use hard blocking a bit contains much redirection jaming, and prefers to use superior body position over accepting direct brutal force on force.

I generally don't like force on force.

[Royal Dragon]

"then you're screwed in any case"

Reply]
Not nessarily true. I have sparred with those who were MUCH stronger that I, and faster as well with more actual fighting experiance, but I was able to beat them because my stratigy was very unexpected (Thank you Deep stances!!!)

My stratigy violated every fightimg rule this individual was ever taught, so he did not expect me to do pretty much all of the things I did. The fact that I was very agile in deep stances at the time completely threw him as he couldn't even get into many of the positions I was quite comfortable in. I used this as an advantage by entering into sudden changes of height and jamming his legs with mine only to pop up under him and throw him. I quite literaly vanished before his eyes By dropping into Deep twisted horse stances and unwinding underneith and to the side of him with full power elbows to his sides and instantly popping up with spinning hooks kicks to his head.

I would fake low, then high several times in a row, then hit low, I would fake high then low several times, then hit high. I would go up the center, only to side step around enough to hit him in the back of the head.

It is not allways speed, and strength, but TACICS that play an important roll as well. After sparring with this guy for a long time, he eventually figured out what I was doing, but by then I had also figured out how to stay ahead of him.

It went from him dominating me, to me dominating him, to a perpetual stalemate now.

If you blend, redirect, make good use of body positioning in hieght, distance and general proximity (Left right front, back), you can over come pure strength, speed and power.

[No_Know]

Was your Kung-Fu different than T'ai Chi Ch'uan? You are to learn both ways but do not mesh them.-ish. the socalled hard block of a Kung-fu class when used is merely ahigh point of a deflecting technique. The "hard" hit can add to your attack after. Plus it restricts that arm at least momentarily.

Kung-Fu way in Knug-Fu class.

T'ai Chi Ch'uan way in T'ai Chi Ch'uan.

While there might be a blending and propper is somewhere in the middle or fluxuating to through and between the extreem of each, this is development time. This is no time to be doing it end product way. If you understand what5 the outcome will be and do that without having trained sufficiently the extremes, you will have the answer but no voice. Train how you're told~ now. Put it together later.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
"I have sparred with those who were MUCH stronger that I, and faster as well with more actual fighting experiance, but I was able to beat them because my stratigy was very unexpected (Thank you Deep stances!!!)

My stratigy violated every fightimg rule this individual was ever taught,


If you blend, redirect, make good use of body positioning in hieght, distance and general proximity (Left right front, back), you can over come pure strength, speed and power.

A: Don't bet the whole paycheck on it.

B: Get thee to a spell-check!

[Royal Dragon]

"A: Don't bet the whole paycheck on it."
Reply]
I wouldn't bet the wole paycheck on anything. Who would have expected that Gracie would ahve beaten so many HUGE guys being such a scrawny skiny as*s

"B: Get thee to a spell-check!"
Reply]
Yup, i should probually leanr me to spell too!

[SevenStar]

"Evasion, redirection, jamming etc is more efficient in my opinion, safer and requires less energy among other things.

What if your opponents is stronger faster and can take more pain and damage than you? or What if your already injured, fatigued, weakened, and you haven't eaten in many days? "

A major factor here is skill level and accuracy. It's easy to SAY "just evade and use stop kicks" but that takes a lot of timing and training. Know how to block in case your timing is off

as for blocks being strikes, I know we've heard "every block is a strike" or something along those lines. they are referred to as destructions. why block a jab when I can parry it down into my elbow which may break his hand? destroying the limb is like taking the bullets out of a gun. It can be very useful.

After seeing Royce, he's not that scrawny. He's alot bigger in person.

"I have sparred with those who were MUCH stronger that I, and faster as well with more actual fighting experiance, but I was able to beat them because my stratigy was very unexpected (Thank you Deep stances!!!)

My stratigy violated every fightimg rule this individual was ever taught"

When you are in a real fight with someone you don't know, you have no idea what he's been taught.

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by chen zhen
Recently I was in my Kung Fu class, in a training lesson. We where being taught how to block proberly, and my sifu saw me doing a block in a deflecting/ redirecting way, and he said I did it wrong. Then he said: "I'm trying to make you (the class) have another view on blocking, a block should be like a punch. It has to destroy the attackers arm."
This goes totally against the principles of Taiji which I trained before. What's your views on hard blocking opposed to parrying?

Chen Zhen,

Firstly, what style do you practice?

Secondly, do you normally deflect strikes? If so, understanding other ways to treat attacks just means you have more tools.

In SPM we both deflect and attack limbs. But we do not block like the standard karateka.

[No_Know]

"What if your opponents is stronger faster and can take more pain and damage than you?"

Hit them where they are weakest. Timmed, during near the end of their attack. And with more damage than They can take.

"...or What if your already injured, fatigued, weakened, and you haven't eaten in many days? "

Act more injured than you are--build over confidence in your opponent. Coil or huddle-up to launch a weak area strike/grab/thrust (with found item (pointy and hard, sharp and hard or merely hard)). If they close to finish or continue, unleash your predesignated target (designated upon opponent's manner of approach). Position yourself so that person must bend/off balance or be awkward to see you close or get you. If they do not press the attack or leave, then be Very thankful.

"why block a jab when I can parry it down into my elbow which may break his hand?"

Doesn't that take two limbs? If yes, then I might prefer a one limb needed destruction because I could defend or strike with my other hand/arm at the same time as crippling the opponent while preventing getting hit from that angle with my one arm.

Don't block a jab. Slip it and hurt them very bad!~ :~>

[SevenStar]

it takes two limbs, but the involvement of one of them is minor. IMO, the result definitely justifies the means.

[Repulsive Monkey]

If one finishes a move with a block and thats it then I feel thats insufficient. It feels like a wasted opportunity in my mind. Blocks are limited and could be so more powerful and useful if they were to be used as a conduit for further action but without being final and absolute, so in general I feel Taiji has it absolutelty right when it re-directs the force elsewhere witha parry. To me this seems like the only logical reason for maitianing directional movement within a fight. Blocks alone seem to be without much value.

[Leonidas]

Theres nothing wrong with blocking a strike once in a while if it slips through your defenses but i personally wouldn't depend on it. Me being 5'8" with sneakers on, under 200 pounds, pretty small compared to most people i know. Ever had a really good strike and your arm felt like it was gonna fall off when you put it up to block? I have fought a few people bigger then me, one of them towering over me by atleast 6 inches. I'm pretty sure i wasn't going to break his arms with any blocks, i think the reverse would of happened if anything. It seems to me that larger people would have the advantage with this strategy.

[MightyB]

You and your Sifu are probably having a communication problem.

What he's probably trying to show is the circular "pop" (nearly-striking) action that a Jing Wu/Chin Wu Martial Art [tai chi, Eagle Claw, Northern Shaolin, 7 Star Praying Mantis] has in some of its blocking applications. It is a redirecting/deflecting energy, but it has tremendous "pop" and will hurt your attacker. No, it's not force on force, but it is force applied to force in a very strategic and effective manner.

What he's perceiving is that you're probably being too soft with your blocking (could be that your partner is too easy on you). Observe your Sifu doing the correct application of the block and you'll probably see that he's blocking/deflecting in a circular direction as opposed to force on force, but it could be described as striking the attacking arm or leg.

[Leto]

I think this isn't as big a deal as some are making it out to be. A block, even a karate style block, is never performed alone as a single technique. there will still be simultaneous attack and combinations to follow. But causing a little (or a lot) of pain in your opponent goes a long way, demoralizing and sometimes incapacitating. When is it expedient to do so, by all means yield and redirect. There are also times when it is best to be hard, and it is good to be able to do so. use soft against hard, and hard against soft. Up against someone much bigger and stronger, it is best to stay in the soft redirecting mode, or use greater speed (unless you know you have better conditioning). Against someone your own size, or smaller, or faster, maybe better to wait for their attacks and use strength to overcome. The ultimate outcome is decided by who is more skilled and better conditioned, in any case.

I don't think it is ever bad to know how to do something a different way, or to learn different tactics. The hard style block is useful, and it works to cause pain and create openings.

[SevenStar]

my thoughts exactly. Good post

[chen zhen]

Hey guys, thanks for all your good replies. It's nice to see a lot of different perspectives.

MightyB, I think your explanation is right, since I train in the Jing Wu Men-style. The circular "pop" action seems to be the right way to describe it.