Functional Muscle

[Viper555]

I posted this on the kungfu health and training board but sometimes it take a while to get a reply there so i'm posting it here too.



I was wondering if the following exercises will help me build functional muscle:

*Note*All exercises involving weights are use in a powerlifting program


ARMS

1)Push ups
2)Panther crawl(go down like you're going to do a push up,come halfway up,and move foward)
3)push up all the way,go halfway down,back up,all the way down(hold each one for 10 seconds)
4)Inclined Bench Press
5)Military press

ABS

1)Sit ups in a declined position
2)Hang from a chinup bar and hold legs out straight in front of me
3)Lay on the ground and raise legs as high as possible then lower without letting them touch the ground and then back up
4)6 inches

LEGS

1)Jump and bring legs to chest
2)duck walk(squat donw with legs close together and walk)
3)Rabbit Hop(Same as above just leap foward)
4)Stance training
5)Squats

BACK

Deadlifts

FOREARMS
*Note*In all of these my arm is straight out in front of me and me wrist is straight to.

1)Holding staff at end
2)Holding staff at end and bending the wrist down and back up without letting the staff touch the ground
3)Holding staff at end and twisting the wrist left to right making a complete circle
4)Holding staff in center and twisting the wrist left to right making a complete circle

WRISTS/FINGERS
*Note*I use a dumbell with a weight on only one end

1)Hold dumbell at end without weight with thumb,pointer,and middle straight out in front of me.
2)While holding dumbell straight out in front of me I lower it and raise it

ANKLES

1)Standing in a normal walking stance I come up on the balls of my feet and then back down.


Please tell me if any of these do not help me to develop funchtional muscle and if you can give me an exercise to replace it.Thanks for any help.

[TaoBoy]

What are you training for (ie. specific MA etc)?

The exercises you have listed sound good enough to me.

[SevenStar]

you're not doing all that in one workout are you?

also, why incline bench presses?

the non weight bearing movements you list are basically just muscle endurance exercises. from the sounds of the program, you aren't trying in gain size, you are only trying to get stronger, correct?

[Viper555]

Yeah, I really don't care if I get big muscles or not.I seperate all those into three different workouts that I do on certain days.The main things i'm trying to gain are speed,strength, and endurance(in that order).Also, I do the incline bench press along with the military press to help build up my arms more because i'm extremely weak in my arms.Thanks for the input guys.

[SevenStar]

I don't think that's gonna have any affect on your speed.

I don't see pull ups in your workout. between pull ups, military presses, pushup variations and panther crawling, your your arms and shoulders should be okay. I see this program building more endurance than anything else.

[Viper555]

Oh yeah,I do pullups and chinups too.What kind of things can I do to increase my speed? I've got the powerlifting for strength,and the other exercises are working my endurance so,the only thing i'm missing is something to help my speed.

[Repulsive Monkey]

If its speed you want them I'm afraid you've already compromised that with all the weight training and muscle building sets you've described. Shortening ligaments through muscle development will slow you down, and general increase in muscular size due to meaningless weight triaining will also go against speed development. Why don't you just train in your art?? What is it by the way that it requires so much support by doing other exercises???

[sweaty_dog]

I would interested to see the theory behind weight training reducing speed. I think it depends very much on how you use the weights. Also, you will not automatically become bulky from using weights, routine, diet etc are very important in this respect. Boxers now use weights and they do not seem to be bothered by it too much. I would suggest using free weights in explosive movements and doing a lot of stretching, but most of all I would suggest looking at some exercise physiology books and not trusting what you hear on the net too much!

(No offense meant to other posters, but it is not a very reliable source for anything!)

I think your routine looks OK, but there might be better ways to train ankles and fingers, and for the legs the jumping exercises are supposed to be very good after you have exhausted the muscle with squats (or ma bu as the case may be).

[Repulsive Monkey]

speed can be compromised by shortening of ligament/tendon length due to the expansion of muscle bulk this is just pure bio-physics.

[Ford Prefect]

Repulsive Monkey is incorrect.

[sweaty_dog]

I'm sorry Repulsive Monkey, but could you explain more? I don't understand how the muscle bulk affects the length of the tendon. And how do the ligaments come into it?

Viper, I noticed you didn't include any neck exercises, they can be good too, especially if you're going to get thrown or hit in the head. Neck curls and bridging are good, or use a neck machine if you are lucky enough to have one nearby. If you want a very low impact workout that will give you quite a lot of "useful" strength have you thought about swimming? Anyway good luck with it all.

[Repulsive Monkey]

surely between the insertion and origin of any muscle in the body if the muscle size is increased then their attachment either end are compromised? Surely this will substantially effect a) tendon durability and the ability to ergonomically have decent tendon movement too? and b) create more tension on it due to greater muscularity?. What I'm trying to say is that speed doesn't come through the building up of muscles at all, speed is to do with relaxation and partly due to healthy tendons. In this respect I am not incorrect, ask most martial artists and they will mostly concur with me that relaxation is vital to increasing speed.

[Braden]

Viper - Are you sure what you really want is functional strength? And, if so, what do you mean by this? By which I mean, the term 'functional strength' implies strength for a function. What function do you have in mind? Do you just want to strike hard, or do you want a grip of steel, or do you simply want a good general level of useable muscular strength, or... ?

[Cashier Graham]

Weight training strengthens tendons because your muscles are not always fully contracted in the movement so other soft tissue takes that strain.
By weight training makes you slow do you mean in the way it compromises muscular world record holding sprinters? ;)
Heres a good training tip for the doubters of weight training look at the top fighters in the world.
Muscles move body, better muscles move body better.
I would say Vipers list is good for getting a good foundation of strength before specialiseing for MA specific goals.

[SevenStar]

"If its speed you want them I'm afraid you've already compromised that with all the weight training and muscle building sets you've described. Shortening ligaments through muscle development will slow you down, and general increase in muscular size due to meaningless weight triaining will also go against speed development. Why don't you just train in your art?? What is it by the way that it requires so much support by doing other exercises???"

you know that's poppy****, right? just like the old myth that lifting limits flexibility. unles you are HUGE, that's just not gonna hapen.

[Former castleva]

If you want speed,weight/strength training won´t do that for you.
And you´re after MA ability are not you? It´s good to do strength training of course for strength and endurance but for speed,train speed.
If you were after speed with strength training then you were to decrease it,if you feel strength training is necessary,which is good...then balance the "weight" of things with speed related training,if don´t,you´ll be hindering that.
If you choose to do strength training,remember to stretch carefully and seriously to uninvite injuries,shorter muscles and limited flexibility etc.
It seems some artists recommend bodyweight exercises etc. over modern weight training for martial abilities and condition,won´t bulk you up they say,that´s them.

I think that if you take time and perhaps some money,you may create weight free conditioning programs based on martial arts related exercises alone,just a tip,do what works for you.

[fa_jing]

What if you don't want to be AS FAST AS possible, but you do need to be able to knock someone out????

All I know is the stronger guys who do some speed work, and can remain relaxed, hit the hardest.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
speed can be compromised by shortening of ligament/tendon length due to the expansion of muscle bulk this is just pure bio-physics.

Fire your bio-physics teacher.

IronFist

[Viper555]

My main goal in this is to build up my strength and speed(MA ability).Right now i'm incredibly weak and not to slow but not to fast either.The way I see it is if you have speed and strength(along with knowlege of how to use your techniques)you will eliminate the need for endurance since you will be able to end the situation quickly.One question,by explosive movements do you mean like lifting as fast as I can?

BTW,by functional muscle i'm talking about muscle that I can use in a fight and not just show off.

And, if it matters, I train is Shaolin kung fu with 5 animals kung fu forms with it here: www.blueridgekungfu.com

I'm also interested in starting some iron body training as well.Has anyone here done this and if you have what were the results and what did you do?

One more question, could you tell me how to do the neck exercises you were talking about?

[Braden]

Viper - For functional strength, try a small routine of exercises using gross body movements, few reps, incrementing the resistance, and do the exercises slowly; and focus, so much as you focus on anything, on your thighs, abdominals, lower back, and lats (and hip flexors, buttocks...).

In other words, get rid of most of your routine; especially the highly isolated exercises for muscles in the extremities, and the static exercises. And add in something for your lats (if you're doing chinups, maybe hook up something so you can do them weighted).

If you want speed, look into the striking drills of your art. Make sure you don't over train, and you keep yourself limber, and stay relaxed. If you want to look to 'western conditioning' for speed training, look into plyometrics.

Whatever you might say about endurance, make sure you include regular CV work. This should be easy to do, since it's easy to adapt martial activities like heavy bag work into a decent CV workout.

I'm not a big fan of hard style iron body conditioning, and you have to be very careful with neck exercises if your style emphasizes sunk shoulders. Also trapezius exercises.

[Viper555]

What kind of a routine would you recommend?

[yenhoi]

SevenStar and Repulsive Monkey are wrong. Braden is right!

Except for Sevenstar, hes right too.

[Viper555]

Also,when I say functional muscle i'm talking about muscle like Bruce Lee had.It wasn't for show but for use.

[Braden]

It seems to me, Bruce Lee's musculature was mostly for show.

[Viper555]

Really,and how did you come up with that?

[yenhoi]

Quote Viper55:

Also,when I say functional muscle i'm talking about muscle like Bruce Lee had. It wasn't for show but for use.

--

Really, and how did you come up with that?

[Braden]

How did you come up with the converse?

As his job was an actor, and his muscles were most prominently seen being flashed on the big screen for hollywood dollars, it seems like a reasonable conclusion to draw.

[Viper555]

Here's how I came up with that.Bruce trained to make himself stronger,faster,and to have more endurance in a fight rather than to make it look like he could do good in a fight.How do I know this?He has said it before.Did he look like a bodybuilder?No.Was his muscle more functional for fighting than a bodybuilder's?Yes.

of course I could be wrong but I don't think that I am.

[Viper555]

Sure, when he flexed them on the big screen they looked pretty good but that was not his goal.

[Braden]

"Bruce says so" doesn't do much for convincing me something is true. Call me a skeptic. :D

[yenhoi]

How do you know what his goals were?

So you have read the Tao of jeet kune do.... neat, John Little would be proud....

Fact of the matter is Bruce Lee was not only a martial artist, he as a actor, and although he made alot of chicken scratch notes and wrote alot of letters before he died - he was spending an awfull lot of his energy on acting before he died, whos to truely say what his muscles were for or what they were capable of.

Train for your goals. Evaluate your program for your progress. Train your tools for your use. Throw away what you find useless.

[Viper555]

How did we even get so far off topic as to arguing over wheither bruce trained for size or efficiency?Lets just drop it. It's not important.I'm sure that you'll agree though that bruce had a pretty good workout routine set up to make him as efficient as he was.What kind of exercises did he do to reach the level he was at?

[Viper555]

For someone who is weak(extremely),has alright speed,and pretty low endurance, do you think this exercise would be beneficial?

[Braden]

I don't think it's off-topic at all, because it speaks to what your goals are.

Personally, I think that if you want to be healthy, strong, and fast, you shouldn't aspire to look like or train like Bruce Lee.

[yenhoi]

Quote Viper55:

How do I know this? He has said it before.

--

Terrible justification. Anyways, I dont think he actually said it, good possibility he wrote it somewhere and someone else published it.

If you are just starting in Shaolin 5 animals, I would think your focus for the time being would be on the forms, you will get good workout and good body formation by just doing your forms, doing them fast, slow, medium, many times a day. I would worry about bulking up and training your muscle for more specific functionality once you get to actually training and sparring, not just learning the basics.

If your body is weak, or lacking in some natural manner, formwork will fill you out, and it will be functional filling, too.

[yenhoi]

Quote Viper55:

I'm sure that you'll agree though that bruce had a pretty good workout routine set up to make him as efficient as he was.

--

I would agree that Bruce Lee knew what he was doing as it pertained to him, but, since you are such a keen student of Bruce Lee and his efficient methods, you would know as well as the rest of us that he changed his workout routines almost daily (or very often to say the least.) Even if you read all of John Little's little books, you would have a hard time figureing out exactly what Bruce Lee was or wasent upto at any given time.

Now, how do you judge how efficient a man was who died 30 some odd years ago?

Worry about how efficient you are.

[TjD]

i thought lifting for strength was the best way to go if you wanted speed?

working the fast twitch muscle as opposed to the slow twitch you gain from bodybuilding type execrises... or is that old news now too :)

[IronFist]

Guys, I really hate to break this to you, but in the years since Bruce, there have been great advancements in training science.

While Bruce could perform some impressive feats, such as holding a 90lb bar straight out at shoulder length for like a minute or something (which may or may not be exaggerated), he was lacking in other areas. One account never saw him squat with more than 90lbs on the bar or something like that. It may have been more but it wasn't that much.

I was going to say "I wouldn't take exercise advice from someone who thought it was healthy to go around every day at 6% body fat," but that may have been genetic so maybe it wasn't his choice. I'm 8% bodyfat almost all the time no matter what I eat so I can't really talk either.

But the point is... "because Bruce trained this way" is not that good of a justification for your training methods.

IronFist

[sweaty_dog]

Viper if you are really weak and not just saying that, I would suggest a lot of bodyweight exercises, maybe some swimming and working on good form on a few lifts like deadlifts and military press with very light weights.

[Ford Prefect]

Repulsive Monkey is still incorrect.

What you are saying are old-wives tales about weight lifting.

[Cashier Graham]

Weight training increases strength, muscular endurance and speed which also means power is increased. Depending on the way you train you can emphasise these different aspects. I know I do it and have had positive results.
I'm sure you have all heard stories of martial arts masters not taking on students if they didn't have a good foundation of strength. True forms and martial arts practice build strength but it helps if your strong enough to do the movements. People need to listen less to old wives tales and dive in head first and if weight training doesn't suit you than thats all right because you believe other myths like muscle turning into fat which you can then burn off!
If you don't think being able to move a heavy weight benefits you then meet some really strong people whose arms you can't even move out of the way to hit them.

[dwid]

There are two tired arguments that amaze me in their resistance to just going away.

The first has been well-illustrated here: that weight training is not necessary or helpful to the martial arts, and may in fact hurt your martial art training. I think the persistence of this is rooted in the put upon guy who started martial arts training to help out against the strong, athletic bullies of his youth. Believing that muscle mass hurts your training puts non-athletic types at a better starting point in the MA's than athletic types. In effect, it turns the tables on the bullies. I understand wanting to believe this. I've been there myself. Still, sooner or later, one has to accept that there is no, I repeat NO, scientific basis for validating this in any way.

Of course the second myth is that traditional arts don't do well in fighting comp's because no eye-gouging and face-ripping is allowed. This one just makes me sad.

There comes a point in traditional training where you just have to accept the sad truth that you will never be a jedi.

[Former castleva]

Just got to add that as if you´re to strength training then,do train all the main muscle groups (same ones as used in body building) to stay away from poorly imbalanced muscular structure (think of training just pectoral muscles and biceps because they "can be seen" and neglect calves as an example)
It is not as hard as it sounds at all.

[Braden]

TjD "i thought lifting for strength was the best way to go if you wanted speed...working the fast twitch muscle as opposed to the slow twitch you gain from bodybuilding type execrises"

By what logic are you making the above distinction?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Former castleva
Just got to add that as if you´re to strength training then,do train all the main muscle groups (same ones as used in body building) to stay away from poorly imbalanced muscular structure (think of training just pectoral muscles and biceps because they "can be seen" and neglect calves as an example)
It is not as hard as it sounds at all.

I dunno if I fully agree with that. if you are a striker, you don't need a developed chest. huge biceps aren't necessary either when it comes to fighting. by doing the big compound exercises, like deads, squats and bench presses your smaller muscles will get a sufficient workout. in Bodybuilding, aesthetics matters, but in MA it does not.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Braden
TjD "i thought lifting for strength was the best way to go if you wanted speed...working the fast twitch muscle as opposed to the slow twitch you gain from bodybuilding type execrises"

By what logic are you making the above distinction?

he's talking about powerlifting, I think. fast twitch fibers produce explosiveness and speed, as they contract faster and harder for a shorter period of time. they use glycogen though as opposed to oxygen, so they suck for endurance. proper strength training stimulates these muscles, essentially making them capable of producing faster, stronger contractions, hence, speed.

I think the flaw here is that it's the speed and strength of the muscle's contraction that is being developed - explosiveness. that's not necessarily the same as fast strikes.

[Braden]

No, it's not...

But I wasn't under the impression that power lifting hits fast twitch fibers considerably more than bodybuilding would. Why would this be the case?

[SevenStar]

the intensity. bodybuilders tend to lift moderate to heavy, multiple sets per muscle, moderate reps. training for pure strength uses a different format. heavy weight, less reps, more rest between sets. power training has a different effect on the body than bodybuilding does. bodybuilding tends to cause more hypertrophy in the type 1 fibers where as strength training causes most hypertrophy in type 2 fibers - fast twitch - the power and speed fibers.

[Braden]

Are you doing individual reps quickly and explosively in power training?

[wall]

VERY SIMPLE:

want powerful muscles? Then do exercises that stimulate large groups of muscles into working together in unison under heavy load. That's it.

So; chinups, dips, squats, deadlifts, benchpress. Heavy load (6-8 reps), few sets (2-3), twice a week or on a split routine.

By the way, it will make your muscles grow in size too, but not in an unfunctional bodybulider-type way. And no, it will not make you stiff, in fact you will gain flexibility if you stretch seriously after each workout, and will also gain joint stability.

Pretty simple. And by the way Bruce seemed to have a somewhat unbalanced physique, good for his time but we know much more know. And by the way, gymnasts back then already had stronger and more balanced physiques than Bruce, and all they did/do is the above weights twice a week + the free body gymnastics stuff daily.

Wall

[SevenStar]

not necessarily....I guess that differs person to person. there are people that try to explode upward rapidly, but that *may* cause injury if you're not careful. with non- weight bearing exercises, like jump squats and clapping pushups, yes, you explode on each rep.

[IronFist]

I like cheese.

IronFist

[KC Elbows]

Cheese blocks me up. If I eat enough of it, I won't poop at all. Just a little is nice though.

[IronFist]

Aye.

IronFist

[SevenStar]

hijacking of decent threads is prohibited.:p

[KC Elbows]

I'll be gouda.

[SevenStar]

speaking of gouda, cheese is high in protein, which are the building blocks of muscle. at 1,000 calories a day, viper can't be getting enough protein.

[KC Elbows]

But all of his protein shouldn't come from cheese, or he'll be as blocked up as me.:eek:

[IronFist]

Cheese is pretty high in fat, too.

If Viper at 1000 calories of cheese, he would gain weight because he would never be able to go to the bathroom.

IronFist

[Braden]

Seven -

To my understanding...

There are actually two main groups of muscle fibers that fall under the label 'fast twitch.'

The fast twitch fibers which use glycolytic metabolism both contract and relax extremely quickly, such that they only remain tense very briefly. They cannot be used for any sort of sustained activity. I don't believe they could be 'targetted' by any sort of traditional weight-training exercises, simply because their activity is so brief. This is the area of plyometrics, where the exercise is done upon a loaded muscle which contracts for only a brief movement to produce a single explosive movement.

There are also fast twitch fibers which use oxidative metabolism. These are the fibers that will be 'targetted' by weight-lifting, both of the 'power' and 'bodybuilding' sorts. They are not as fast, nor do they fatigue as fast as the glycolytic fast twitches, but they CAN sustain tension.

Both of these are distinguished from slow twitch fibers which contract very slowly. Slow in the sense not of doing an exercise slowly, but slow in the sense of maintaining an upright posture throughout the day.

In other words, so far as I can figure, both 'power' and 'bodybuilding' styles of exercise hit the same muscle fiber type, and you have to delve into plyometrics to hit the "very" fast twitch fibers. That is, so long as you buy that approach to exercising. Some people are dubious about targetting fibers.

Again, this is just my understanding and I'd appreciate being corrected if I'm wrong.

P.S. Cheese is truly wonderfull. I'm a particular fan of emmanthal and sharp cheddar.

[Ford Prefect]

There are actually two main groups of muscle fibers that fall under the label 'fast twitch.'

The fast twitch fibers which use glycolytic metabolism both contract and relax extremely quickly, such that they only remain tense very briefly. They cannot be ...

What you said is basically true. They are targetted in different ways. Bodybuilders target the energy delivery system in a sense, while powerlifters target the fibers themselves.

[IronFist]

Cheez 0WNz YUO!

IronFist

[wall]

......let's use practical examples.

Who can you think as having huge explosive power? Let's see. How about olympic sprinters?
Well, they do squats, dls, bench, dips and chins real heavy twice a week, plus the sport-specific training (ie sprinting and plyos).
Or how about olympic gymnasts?
Well, they do squats, dls, bench, dips and chins real heavy twice a week, plus the sport-specific training (ie gymnastics and stretching).
Or how about olympic pole vaulters?
Well, they do squats, dls, bench, dips and chins real heavy twice a week, plus the sport-specific training (ie pole vaulting and plyos).
Or how about professional fighters?
Well, they do squats, dls, bench, dips and chins real heavy twice a week, plus the sport-specific training (ie fighting and endurance).

Can't really make it clearer than that. Want power? Do as they do, they do it at the highest level so must know something, right?

Wall

[Viper555]

What are dips?

[SevenStar]

http://www.steelfitness.com/beta/training/womantriceps/dips.htm

[wall]

None of those are real dips actually. They should be done between parallel bars so the whole body weight (and additional weights you might tie to your belt) goes up and down in a almost vertical motion. This way is more compound as it uses a far larger amount of muscle in coordinated effort (tris, shoulders, chest, abs, etc).

W