Do you train your mind?

[azwingchun]

I run into many martial artist who speak about their technique being superior, and how they train 7 days a week and 6 hours a day. But my question is do you train your mind? This isn't to insult anyone, but I find training techniques isn't always enough. You must practice various senarios mentally as well to prepare yourself. What I mean by this is, you can train full contact everyday of your life, but is this enough?
I will give you an example of what I mean. Several years ago, I was sitting a busy intersection here in Phoenix and saw a guy who seemed to have the tough street thug look to him. I asked myself what if this guy run up to my car and grabbed me (I had my window down at the time)? What would I do? This isn't the average scenario I had ever trained in a classroom. Actually never thought about it. So, I began to go over many differnt defense and attack sequences in my head. Then after figuring out what I could or would do in my mind, I asked myself if mentally training myself for this situation was enough. I then began going over other situations which can't usually be trained in your local school, such as situations like when I walked around the corner of my apartment and someone jumped out from behind the wall, or if I startled some bum hidden in the garbage dumpster while taking out the garbage some night. I continously asked myself what would I do? And not only did I say "Oh, I would just do this and it would be finished!", but I went over several of the most simplistic, basic but effective techinques I could think of. But, I still had to ask myself if this kind of training would help me as a martial artist.
Now out of pure luck, the answer to my question was finally answered, though many years later. I used to drive a dump truck with a 20 foot trailer on the back. One dark early morning I was backing this trailer into the yard and not paying much attention to anything except trying not to hit any other vehicles in the yard(it was pitch black except for my reverse lights). When all of a sudden a good friend of mine came running and jumped onto the step of my truck and yelled "HEY!". And to my surprise, I turned without thought and palmed the guy in the face (luckily, I had enough controll to pull my strike, so not to cause severe damage to him). But, it was one of the many techniques rehearsed by me many hundreds of times in my head.
I have these types of scenarios come to light many times after rehearsing them mentally. My question to you is, do you train this way? And if not, do you think this type of training would help you?
By the way, I mentioned this to an ex-military man once. He asked me "how do you think the military takes 18 year old kids straight from high school and turn them into killers?" He said we mentally train them in a very similar way. We make them rehearse various situations and have them respond to them without thought, so it becomes second nature to them.
I Would like your opinion on this. Like I said it has worked greatly with my training as well as for my students. Not only have my students noticed a change, but I have noticed a change in their reaction time when training.;)

[azwingchun]

I understand what you are saying, though at the same time, remember I was able to pull the strike when I realized he was a friend and not a foe. The other side to that is, if I hesitated to long I may have been stuck if it wasn't a friendly encounter. This brings me back to a class I had about 15 years ago or so. We were being taught a technique where someone grabs your shoulder from behind. The techniques used was you grabbed the hand from the opposite side of the body which was being grabbed, you then turn to towards your opponent and executed a strike or an arm break. The teacher warned to always look before striking, because it could be your mother trying to get your attention. Boy wouldn't she be shocked.....LOL.;)

[pvwingchun]

I train my mind very much in the way have described, but don't mention it to many because people tend to think I am paranoid LOL... I say I am just being aware.

Another thing I do and I believe I have heard you mention it along the same lines.... I have a tendency to pay attention more to my surroundings, than most people, and the person I may be speaking with at the time, especially in public. My mind is always on alert in what I consider my threat area, looking for things that are not right. I am not being disrespectful or not in the conversation just watching what is going on around me. For example after a baseball game one evening my wife and I had left a few minutes early to beat the crowd. While walking through the parking lot I noticed 2 "kids" probably between 16 and 18 years of age sneaking between the cars about 2 rows over mirroring our every move, if I moved over an aisle they moved over an aisle. They did not know I was aware of them, until my wife got on me for not paying attention to our conversation, which I was very much in, I was just concerned with their intentions. As soon as I let her know what was going on in a voice loud enough to be heard by those following me they stood up and went the other way. These two were 2 rows over and not in my immediate threat area. But in my mind they were a threat and I was going over scenarios in my head the whole time.

I believe this is a form of training your mind that has to be done constantly. It is more than being aware of your surroundings, you have to train your mind to be on that level of alertness at all times not just when something jumps up and strikes you as out of the ordinary.

[Tom Kagan]

My SiHing published a book few years ago on the subject:
Mental Skills in Martial Arts, by Miguel Henandez, Winner Sports, Brooklyn, NY 1997

The book is an reasonably decent introduction to methods of improving mindfulness. It also has an excellent bibliography for those who wish to study the subject further.

I'm not exactly sure where you could find a copy. But, I suppose the simplest way is to just ask Miguel directly. You can find him (and his school) here:

5305 5th Avenue
Brooklyn NY 11220 (Sunset Park)
(718) 492-0638

[azwingchun]

I found this a very interesting subject of training. Since, it is something that can't really be taught in a classroom environmemt. Of course a teacher can tell you to do this, but it is the one true thing that is up to you to train. Some people I have told about this, have said that this was a from of being paranoid. I don't find this to be true. Because if he only learn how to do some particular moves but don't train your awareness to various situations, you will be less prepared IMHO. I tell my students that anyone can punch, kick and scratch (which when cornered many will do without any formal training). But to know what situations are or might be around the corner at anytime and how to deal with these situations is a must. Think about it, why do we train against a takedown, hook-punch etc? Because these are situations we may encounter. So why don't we train against a surprise attack? Well, you may practice against this. But, it is very difficult to train a surprise attack in the classroom, since you are expecting your training partner to come at you. And probably not in a true to life attack situation. Not unless you have training partners hiding behind bushes, walls or any other place you don't expect, and have them jump at you unexpectedly. This will truely test your response......you know what I mean. Now maybe this is carring it a little too far, so what I have learned is to rehearse this mentally.
I actually saw on television a school who teaches self-defense. Somewhere in the day of the seminar whether in the parking lot or where ever, they would attack a student or two. One for demonstrational reasons, also to see how a couple of students would react and lastly to show people what the mind set of being attacked is truely like. I am sure some of you will say that this is a little extreme and possibly dangerous, and I would probably agree with you. But at the same time I see what they are doing.
;)

[james hfyofAZ]

I think that you would have to train the mind as the body follows what your mind learns. And as far as being alert at all times, that is part of kung fu. If you're training your kung fu properly than you should have a very alert mind for changes happen fast. Take fight for example, You cant just fight by doing a form. You must learn to adapt witch means your mind has to be at its highest alert stage. If you program your mind to always be alert then when the time comes to utilizes your Kung fu it will happen all on its own. I wish you luck in your training.
Good Health, Fortune, and harmony to all of the matial art community, James HFY of AZ

[azwingchun]

I agree with 100%. Though, with my experience in martial arts, I find that instructors telling their students that they must be alert isn't enough of an explanation. Especially if the student(s) have never been in a real life conflict or attack. The basic things to watch out for are not always the way attacks happen. Does this make sense? I tell my students only expect the unexpected.

By the way, I assume you train at the Mengs's martial arts school here in Chandler. Is that correct? Anyway, nice to have another Az. person here on the board.;)

[pvwingchun]

azwingchun

So we have determined that some people think we are paranoid LOL. But I agree very much with what you are saying and your way of thinking. IMHO most people even with tons of training are surprised in the situations mentioned and are really only aware of what is right in front of them, not what can't be seen. I think alot of this goes to the difference between training in self defense and martial arts. Because you can train one and not the other. It all goes to being aware of what can happen not only to what is happening.

[azwingchun]

Correct! This goes back to what the perception of what alert is. Take a new student who grew up in the Bronx and compare him/her to someone who grew up in Beverl Hills (not to stereo-type) I believe their perception of what to watch out for will be greatly different. Not to mention that fine line of being paranoid....LOL. And regardless of how great any of us may think we are with being alert and knowing what to watch out for, things still happen. Pvwingchun, I think I may have mentioned this in the last seminar in Prescott, about people walking through the parking lot of a store chasing their kid around, how alert is that person at that very moment. This is just an example, but do you see what I mean? We all at some time let our gaurds down sometime throughout our lives if not throughout our daily lives. Think about it, your sitting behind your desk at work, the last thing you are expecting is to be jumped. But, think about about the jump in violence in the work place environment. How many times have you trained for this? Now maybe this again is going to the extreme, but it happens. ;)

[old jong]

Any of you guys are married?...Just kidding!...;) I think a simple mental exercice is just being aware when someone is near you of how he could possibely attack you and taking the habit of being ready without showing it.
Think about the samurai who where taught to eat or even sleep in a way to be able to draw their sword.

[pvwingchun]

azwingchun

We are very much on the same page.

Concerning the parking lot example, you have no idea how many times I have got on my wife for her 100% focus on our kids in the parking lot and not paying even a little attention to her surroundings. She doesn't realize that paying attention to what is going on around her goes a long way towards being focused on the children, do you get what I mean. But then she grew up in a small town where those concerns were minimal to reenforce your Bronx example. You can do both but you have to train your mind to do it.

Living up here in Prescott I let my guard down more than I should it all has to do with environment, but when I come down to Phoenix I am much more alert and going over scenarios inmy head. When I lived in Las Vegas, same thing, way more alert, it has alot to do with environment.

[pvwingchun]

old jong

That is one of the things I try and do. Especially if I see something or someone out of place.

[azwingchun]

Yes, I am married, to answer the first question.....LOL.

But to get back to the subject, I understand what you are saying. But what about the situations where your tools such as legs mobility etc. are very limited. Example: remember my statement about sitting at a stop light. These are or maybe situations very much different from standing face to face with attacker. Or just the ability of using all tools available while standing, such as legs, both arms, mobility in general. Though this is just one example, and I realize this has kinda taken a turn more bout awareness then difficult situations.;)

[azwingchun]

I know what you mean, though let's not forget there is crime in the smallest of towns.;)

[Chango]

Hello Gents,
I'm really enjoying this thread. I would like to add how I relate to this subject if I could. My two older brothers and I all began our martial arts journey's at age five. Give the enviorment rough was the only way to play. So it turns out while growing up the secret attack was the tactic used most often. I hate to admit it but even as grown men when we get together we still attack each other from time to time. We are all really close. my point being that application in a live enviorment does change things quite a bit. When training I think this is a vital aspect that should be trained. In our training at the VTM we have different methods of training while "under stress" and or starting from a "disadvantage" This really helps the student see why each concept must be clear. I really enjoy this training I think it is a good tool for self discovery In a abstract since.

Chango (saat geng sau):cool:

[pvwingchun]

and I realize this has kinda taken a turn more bout awareness then difficult situations.
I consider them to be one in the same. Being aware of and going over scenarios in your own head of what can happen, sitting in traffic or at your desk, etc. As I said being aware of what can happen not what is happening. Walking through the parking lot and thinking about what can happen in this situation or sitting in traffic and looking around thinking about where an attack may come from. These are IMO forms of awareness.


I know what you mean, though let's not forget there is crime in the smallest of towns.
As I said I let it down more than I should but lately in the last year I have tried to be more alert and aware of extreme possibilities....:(

[old jong]

Hey guys!...Remember how inspector Clouseau (http://www.xi-online.nl/i/nieuws/251.jpg) used to practice against surprise attacks with his chinese servant ''Kato''?...

[azwingchun]

I agree with you as well. My students always ask me how they can train what they have learned at home. I tell them to practice against family or friends (as long as they are willing...LOL). This way they are working against non-Wing Chun players. Since the chance of fighting a Wing Chun guy on the street may be slim to non, this training will better their Wing Chun skills and not be so predictive. Since when training Wing Chun against Wing Chun you kinda know what to expect. Again that mental game.;)

[azwingchun]

Yeah, but he was so intimidating, I can't believe anyone would want to fight him....LOL.

[yuanfen]

At good levels of martial arts, the perceived difference between mind and body evaporates. Good wing chun trains both. I feel fairly
confident about my development. I think that constantly imagining threatening situations and possible responses is un-necessary and shows excessive fear.

[azwingchun]

I agree with your statement, though on the other hand I personally don't find this to cause fear for myself. I believe that is a perception in a sense. Just about anything can be seen as a positive thing or negative. It is up to the individual and how they decide to accept any certain thing. The reason I say this is due to that fine line we have been joking about being paranoid. Which I actually explain when teaching, I say that there is a fine line between being paranoid and preparing yourself or being aware. And though I agree with your statements, there are those schools out there who seem to completely bypass this idea, and I believe it can lead to a false sense of security. I think if people look at the mindset that is given in many schools, is, I do martial arts don't mess with me. And seem to forget that there is a bigger world out there then their kwoon or dojo. Though I also realize that this isn't always true, especially from a qualified instructor or school.;)

[pvwingchun]

Yuanfen

I agree to a certain extent. I think that as your skills increase so does your ability to deal with situations that seem to arise from nowhere. You are right good WC trains both the mind and body. For me I consider the visualizations to be more a sense of awareness than fear or paranoia. I certainly don't walk around fearful, just aware of the possibilities to situations based on the environment I am in at the time. And after a certain point it just becomes intuitive.

[james hfyofAZ]

azwingchun
Yes I am part of Mengs of AZ and thank you. I just wanted to say that I can see what you mean about one time or another we let our guard down. But is it really down? You always have your senses, your sense of touch and your hearing. Do you think that if you were attacked while sitting or better yet sleeping would you have the ability to fight back or even just defend your self? For me I would hope that I could. I try to incorporate my kung fu thru out my kung fu life. That goes for the way I train to the way I present my self at work,home,ect... Lead the mind and the bode will fallow. This does not mean that if you read a book on kung fu that you can then truly express it. It is more of a stepping stone to our development. I wish every one good fortune, health and harmony with there kung fu living.
James HFYofAZ

[azwingchun]

Do I think that our guard is really ever completely down? I think there are times that we get so pre-occupied with something, that we may at times lose or maybe not pay as much attention as we should. I think this is not only with martial artist but people in general. Hopefully our training takes us to a level higher than that of the average person walking down the street looking at the ground kicking rocks, totally oblivious to their surroundings. This brings me back to a teacher who once told me that if I followed every principle of Wing Chun to the "T" that it was unstoppable. I then mentioned that we are human and therefore to be error-proof was impossible. This wasn't to discredit the skill which can be obtained in Wing Chun, but at the same time I am a realist.;)

[yenhoi]

When I first started training kung-fu me and my roomate at the time started together, so we always had a training partner, always a person to chi sau, do drills with, or even attack each other randomly.

[james hfyofAZ]

.azwingchun
Most of the time if you're being attacked it will happen at a time that you least expect it. But most attacks are provoked. That should be the clue to raise your senses whether its for a day or just a split second. Would you agree with that? And if so then being a realist and knowing that while training at school you should deal with your opponent in the right space and time, use a mind set game called reality. Your opponent attacks you, do you think about it or do you just GO? Your mind my not think as far as what should I do but more along the lines of controlling the reactions. Boom you just do it. Train the mind and the body will fallow. And yes you do and will make mistakes but that's what biu jie helps trains, recovery from error. Happy training

[gnugear]

I think too much as it is, and it gets me in trouble ... but yes, I do go over scenerios in my head. Especially when I'm going to sleep.

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by yuanfen
At good levels of martial arts, the perceived difference between mind and body evaporates. Good wing chun trains both. I feel fairly
confident about my development. I think that constantly imagining threatening situations and possible responses is un-necessary and shows excessive fear.

Yuanfen - I'm unclear at what point one would consider a good level but, I have experienced occasions that when confronted my wing chun flows naturally. I credit this to being prepared mentally.

As a youth I grew up in East Los Angeles I can assure you that if one wasn't constantly assessing the situation sooner or later you would be "caught slippin". I dont believe I was ever excessively fearfull just concious of my environment. This preperation has, thankfully, carried over into my WC training

So maybe the time spent thinking about threatening situations is related to an individuals environment. Fortunatly for you it sounds as if yours is a safe one. But for others, planning for surprises may not be paranoia but preperation.
-David

[azwingchun]

As far as do I think about it or do react without thought? There it is I started with another question? LOL. Actually I would have to say I don't give any thought as such when I have to defend myself. Though, I am not talking about the provoked type confrontation. I am more referring to the more crimminal type of confrontation, such as robbery, rape and/or murder. Are there as many of these types or confrontations as the provoked type, probably not. But tell this to the lady down the road who has been raped. Averages and percentages don't mean a whole lot to her. This isn't to disagree with you, just to say that I think we are looking at to differnt types of situations.

I also agree with you that Bui Jee helps when you make an error, though even that isn't fail proof, or all Wing Chun people would never lose a fight. LOL!
;)

[james hfyofAZ]

Yes the crime situation is a real one. And in a situation like that would it be safe to say that you would have to react with the best of your physical abilities and all of heart of tiger. People who are attacked by criminals are usually unsuspecting victims. So what would be done in a situation like that? I would not be able to answer that since wing chun is a flowing art. But I can say that I personally train to have that mind set of heart of tiger thru mind of dragon. I feel for the people that can't defend them self in terrible situations like this one. If I still don't understand what you are saying please restate it for my, happy training.

[azwingchun]

My bad! I clicked new thread instead of post reply. So, I guess you will have to find my response.

[azwingchun]

Here it is-Exactly! This was were my original post was going. As you said these type of situations are truely unexpected situations, and I feel if you either don't rehearse various scenatios or have actually been through them, you may be causing yourself to think too much which will cause you to pause. I think we were going to the area just taking differnt paths to get there. By the way you made some great points, thanks for your input.

[james hfyofAZ]

My thoughts exactly. I am off to class to train, good luck to you. Happy train.