How to Neutralize [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

red5angel

10-08-2002, 08:58 AM

Chi Sao is full of all the things you need as a good wing chun person to win a fight. The thread on the tournament is a joke because while you are more then willing to do Chi Sao in class it is apparently a waste to do it in another environment?! If you aren't competitive I can understand that but don't say you don't get it and then go to class and do chi sao. Why would you do that? What's the difference?
For you people that say it is stupid if you have to neutralize an attack (Hence the reason for defending/attacking scenario in competition) then you aren't getting wingchun. When someone tries to attack you you first have to neutralize. Wingchun is about how to neutralize an attack, how to stick to your opponent and how to shut them down. Anyone can throw a punch but a good wingchun man is going to do all of the other things as well."

yenhoi

10-08-2002, 09:04 AM

If someone attacks me, I dont neutralize them!

I attack them! Thats neutralization. Hit thier centerline, and hit it some more, thier attacks have no power if your shaking up thier centerline, thier attacks cant hit you very well if you occupy the centerline and are hitting them.........

joy chaudhuri

10-08-2002, 09:13 AM

r5a's post is a great example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. Granted that neutralization is an important part of wing chun and you hone that skill in chi sao...with your school friends and buddies and with people from other schools and buddies. You can learn a great deal when the learning switch is turned on. But ina competition as reported in Canton...it is a different thing. Note the report on how one's own four did "better" than the other three(so?)... combining in taking turns on defense, offense etc- then being ranked 1,2.3,4 etc. Except for breast beating and howling school chants- I dont see much learning of wing chun or actual self defense taking place there.

red5angel

10-08-2002, 09:17 AM

joy, anyone who participates in an event like this is sure to walk away learning something, unless of course they have grown stubborn and stuck in their ways........if your eyes are closed you cant see much of anything at all.

Yenhoi, what are you going to do if you are attacking and your opponent is doing the same thing you are, attacking? Are you going to muscle your way through or use those valuable skills you leanr in chi sao?

Merryprankster

10-08-2002, 09:20 AM

Chi Sao is full of all the things you need as a good wing chun person to win a fight. The thread on the tournament is a joke because while you are more then willing to do Chi Sao in class it is apparently a waste to do it in another environment?!

Because you turned a training drill into a competition. There's no reason to make "places" for something like this. Ever wonder why the home run derby winner, the Slam Dunk champion, and the Longest Drive guy don't get tons of attention?

Because it's JUST a curiosity--like a carnival freak show. It's interesting and entertaining for a brief moment and says nada about what you are capable of doing within the context of the overall activity itself.

old jong

10-08-2002, 09:25 AM

Why not simply play cards?....When you got an 8,you yell CHI SAU! and the opponent has to pick one from the deck!

red5angel

10-08-2002, 09:32 AM

MP - :) Chi Sao is much more then "just a drill", there is a reason why it is sometimes refered to as the crown jewel of wingchun, and why many MMA people seek to develop wingchun hands.

reneritchie

10-08-2002, 09:36 AM

Why would you want to neutralize an attack? Rendering it neutral does what exactly? And how is it better than turning an attack against itself.

Find a line of force, equalize it, then what? How is that better than adding to it or subtracting from it? How is that better than using a subtle sprial against it?

And why do I need to go to tournament to do Chi Sao? Do I need to go to a stretching tournament to limber up before class? A forms tournament to practice my Siu Lien Tao? Thas rediculus!

BTW - once upon a time I competed frequently in both Judo and point Karate (and even a tiny bit of Wushu), so I have nothing against tournaments when the arts have strong sportive developments. But thems apples and orangutangs.

RR

joy chaudhuri

10-08-2002, 09:42 AM

yenhoi

10-08-2002, 09:44 AM

What am I going to do?

If, what, when where.........

A Chi sau scenario is something that is impossible to verbalize on a internet forum.

What attack, from what angle, with what energy behind it or to the side or nowhere, where is his other arm, what is it doing, how do his feet look, is his structure solid, is ther an opening elsewhere, where is my energy, where are my feet, blah blah blah.

I agree that doing a chi sau drill with a person from outside your normal environment is valuable. Having a publicized 'tournament' with 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th place, that is competitive, with restricting rules in regards to "defense" and "attack", with winners and losers, is just plain silly. This makes TKD point sparring look deadly. My school is better then your school at focus mitt drills, la de dah.

Occupy the center, attack your opponents centerline.

Merryprankster

10-08-2002, 09:47 AM

If it's not full out sparring, it's a drill. Period. I don't care how fundamental, basic or vital to the success of what you do that action is, it's just a drill. I don't care if you are doing it full speed on a resisting opponent it's just a drill. Why? Because you are doing one piece of the puzzle, within certain VERY restricted parameters that don't change. We do passing guard drills full speed where the bottom man has to sweep or submit and the top man has to pass--but it's only one piece of the puzzle. I would never call such drills NHB or a BJJ match.

Feel free to smile and shake your head, because I don't "have the truth, and therefore, don't understand." I've been patronized before.

But in the end, I've got 8 years of training behind me, and I know a stinkin' drill when I see one.

Rolling_Hand

10-08-2002, 10:10 AM

--For you people that say it is stupid if you have to neutralize an attack (Hence the reason for defending/attacking scenario in competition)--R5A

**Often when you talk to a person who doesn't know wing chun, you find yourself yelling--as if you had to shout to be understood.

--then you aren't getting wingchun.--R5A

**hm... so we have to take things one step at a time.

reneritchie

10-08-2002, 10:15 AM

Joy is correct. Yenhoi is correct. MP is correct.

And who's trying to develop WCK hands in MMA? Baroni? Many seem to do just fine with a little boxing and a few <cough> performance enhancers <cough> ...

red5angel

10-08-2002, 10:16 AM

"If it's not full out sparring, it's a drill. Period. I don't care how fundamental, basic or vital to the success of what you do that action is, it's just a drill. I don't care if you are doing it full speed on a resisting opponent it's just a drill. Why? Because you are doing one piece of the puzzle, within certain VERY restricted parameters that don't change. We do passing guard drills full speed where the bottom man has to sweep or submit and the top man has to pass--but it's only one piece of the puzzle. I would never call such drills NHB or a BJJ match."

I wouldnt call what goes on at a chi sao tourney an NHB or UFC match either, thats the point. ;) MP, dont get me wrong, I see what you are saying but I see chi sao as something a little bit more then just a drill.

Yenhoi, correct, lets not get into if and or but, however all matches have rules, and so why not focus some on the technique as well as the actual useage?

old jong

10-08-2002, 10:16 AM

I once saw a Karate school do a pushups tournament!:rolleyes:
Anyway, everybody is free to participate in anything.The sad thing is thinking this as something it is not.

joy chaudhuri

10-08-2002, 10:25 AM

If there was heavybag punching competition among the previous generation heavy weight boxers- George Foreman would have won handily- revisit the shots in " When We Were Kings"-one of the great sports documentary movies. Ali just moved around and tapped the heavy bag in his training days- compared to Foreman.
Guess who got knocked out.

reneritchie

10-08-2002, 10:27 AM

Foreman by massive overwhelming superiority of punching power. Poor bag, never knew what annihilated it...

old jong

10-08-2002, 10:41 AM

You mean that Ali was training in a drill for the results of that drill and....Foreman was training in a drill for the sake of it?...Sounds clear to me!...;)

Rene!
Remember those kissing contests?....After an hour or so,there was no love in the motions anymore!;)

gnugear

10-08-2002, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by reneritchie
Why would you want to neutralize an attack? Rendering it neutral does what exactly? And how is it better than turning an attack against itself.

RR

But if we practice precise positioning, neutralizing an attack allows you to attack with more options, correct?

Rolling_Hand

10-08-2002, 10:54 AM

Red5 is correct, Gnugear is correct.

When body and mind are not synchronized, sometimes your mind is short and your body is long, or sometimes your mind is long and your body is short. So the key is *how to Neutralize*.

reneritchie

10-08-2002, 11:04 AM

OJ - Provided the young lady was pretty enough...

G -

But if we practice precise positioning, neutralizing an attack allows you to attack with more options, correct?

Not IMHO. Neutralizing does nothing but neutralizes the attack (unless people are using neutralize to mean something else). If you attack me and I neutralize, I've done nothing to change the mindset (you are still attacking, I'm defending), nothing to change the timing (you've set a beat, I'm following it), in short, nothing to improve my situation or put myself in the advantage. You will, in all likelyhood, just continue attacking me.

Now, if you attack and I turn it against you (by manipulating your attack to take your balance, over or underextend your position, add to or subtract from your momentum, etc.), your mindset will change (will become confused and defensive), and your timing will be thrown off (will be half or a whole beat behind). In short, I will now be centered, and you will be off-centered, I will have the advantage, and you will be recovering and worried about what I will do next.

IMHO, this is the JEET (Jie, Intercept) concept of WCK. IMHO, this is how we cut off offense, rather than just neutralize it.

RR

gnugear

10-08-2002, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by reneritchie
Not IMHO. Neutralizing does nothing but neutralizes the attack (unless people are using neutralize to mean something else).
RR

My thought is that nuetralizing also means gaining a better position than your opponent. So it's not neccesarily starting back at square one.

reneritchie

10-08-2002, 11:13 AM

Okay, then it wouldn't really be neutral, but advantage-izing! LOL!

RR

old jong

10-08-2002, 11:14 AM

Rene is still correct.

Zhuge Liang

10-08-2002, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by reneritchie
Not IMHO. Neutralizing does nothing but neutralizes the attack (unless people are using neutralize to mean something else). ...R [/B]

I think this is a disagreement over semantics. Speaking for myself, I don't take "neutralize" to mean "equalize". To me, when you neutralize an attack, you are simply taking the threat of his attack away. You are rendering his attack ineffective. There are obviously many ways to do this, and some of those ways have already been mentioned. You can attack your opponent's line and break his structure if you have the superior position. You can force your opponent to overextend or make him lose balance by leading him into emptiness. You can borrow his energy and use it against him. Etc., etc. In each of these examples, the baseline is to negate, or neutralize, the attack. Otherwise, you are just trading punches.

Just my opinion,
Zhuge Liang

Rolling_Hand

10-08-2002, 11:20 AM

You feel as though you had a new set of teeth -*Jeet*, but in actual fact, it's just that your teeth returning them to their natural, original state --*how to neutralize*.

Zhuge Liang

10-08-2002, 11:23 AM

oh, and just to support my argument, here is the definition from dictionary.com

neu·tral·ize Pronunciation Key (ntr-lz, ny-)
tr.v. neu·tral·ized, neu·tral·iz·ing, neu·tral·iz·es
1. To make neutral.
2. To counterbalance or counteract the effect of; render ineffective.
3. To declare neutral and therefore inviolable during a war.
4. Chemistry.
a. To make (a solution) neutral.
b. To cause (an acid or base) to undergo neutralization.
5. Medicine. To counteract the effect of (a drug or toxin).
6. Slang. To remove as a threat, especially by killing.

So Rene was right from his definition, and Red and gnugear are right from their definition. See? semantics.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

reneritchie

10-08-2002, 11:47 AM

ZL - My line of thinking is better to neutralize (hey, even use pacify if you like ;) ) an attacker than just an attack. 8)

RR

red5angel

10-08-2002, 11:51 AM

RR - I thought your line of thinking was not to neutralize at all but to attack?

yenhoi

10-08-2002, 11:54 AM

:eek:

Rolling_Hand

10-08-2002, 12:01 PM

--My line of thinking is better to neutralize (hey, even use pacify if you like ) an attacker than just an attack. 8)--RR

**You want to look into every situation and examine it, so that you won't be fooling yourself by relying on belief alone.

Zhuge Liang

10-08-2002, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by reneritchie
ZL - My line of thinking is better to neutralize (hey, even use pacify if you like ;) ) an attacker than just an attack. 8)

RR

Hi Rene,

I thought I implied that,

"You can attack your opponent's line and break his structure if you have the superior position. "

attacker neutralized

"You can force your opponent to overextend or make him lose balance by leading him into emptiness."

attacker neutralized

"You can borrow his energy and use it against him."

Ok, this one is less obvious, I'll admit. But when you are borrowing his energy, you are using his energy for a purpose he did not intend. His is in effect neutralized because his is commited to attacking himself.

In each of these cases, the attacker is not in a position to attack you again. Has he not then been neutralized?

What are you, the semantics nazi? =)

Zhuge Liang

Rolling_Hand

10-08-2002, 12:07 PM

--RR - I thought your line of thinking was not to neutralize at all but to attack?--Red5

**To Red5's surprise, people begin to see light, even though it may be hazy at first.

tparkerkfo

10-08-2002, 12:11 PM

Hi Guys/Gals

We seem to be getting bogged down with OUR own view points. I myself do not like the rules of the chi sau comps. I think it would be better just to let them kind of go at it. But that doesn't mean it is good or bad. There is indeed value to it. As Rene pointed out elsewhere, if your good you can do your thing weather it is on the defending or attacking side. Wing Chun is a whole, but it also applies in parts.

I think the benefit of these chi sau comps are to better understand yourself, and to build a sort of database of hands. You can begin to understand how you react under the gun. I have chi sau'd with very quick and whirling kind of wing chun people and I found it intimidating, until I learned were to put the stick into their spokes, so to speak. Also, you get to feel all these people and see what they are doing and see if your stuff applies. Even if your doing something correct doesn't mean it is effective. But there is learning.

As far as nutrualizing, what is the point. I tink the whole point of wing chun is to hit the other guy. The second goal would be t limit ourselves being hit. One of the best ways to do that is to control the opponent. If we can control, we can do what we want. So I see many varieties of nutralising. I myself prefer to totaly control the opponent rather than totaly overwhelm him. I beleive if you can control him, you can fire at will if need be. Not easy to do. I have a long ways to go before I can accomplish that.

Just some thoughts
tom
________
Pov Porn (http://www.****tube.com/categories/33/pov/videos/1)

reneritchie

10-08-2002, 12:13 PM

They say God is in the details. Then again, they also say the devil is in the details, so what do "they" know? LOL!

In a text based medium, semantics become important in understanding each other. I can assume you mean the same thing, or imply the same thing, but I prefer to ask and, through discussion, find out (and sometimes the words are even the same but what's behind them doesn't match).

Also, sometimes some words become trendy (back 10 years ago, who online was talking about "breaking structure"? Now everyone is) and who knows what meaning(s) are ascribed to them.

I just want to be clear. Call me one of the "Clarity Alies"

LOL

Atleastimnotyou

10-08-2002, 12:14 PM

nuetralize
utilize
optimize

you have to nuetralize your opponent, utilize his force and then optimize your postion.

reneritchie

10-08-2002, 12:16 PM

r5a - humor son, that's was humor (hence the part about pacifying). Yeesh. Tough room.

Tom - Hit 'em, kick 'em, whatever. Finish him. 8)

Zhuge Liang

10-08-2002, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by reneritchie
....Call me one of the "Clarity Alies"[/B]

There are several things I thought up that I could call you, but that ain't one of them. ;)

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

gnugear

10-08-2002, 12:23 PM

I always try to take the obvious path, but then my instructor will stop me and show me a "neutralizing" move that leaves me even more exposed, and open to two or three hits, not just one!

That's my working definition of neutralizing.

aelward

10-08-2002, 04:31 PM

Does this mean using Tums to counteract gastric acid so as to neutralize a heartburn attack?

reneritchie

10-09-2002, 08:19 AM

Yes, because it treats the symptom (the attack) and not the cause (the attacker). Stop eating the spicy food, and you won't need the tums 8P

red5angel

10-09-2002, 09:09 AM

Gnugear also has a good point, just attacking can be clumsy and the domain of more external arts.

A good example would be the chain punch. You can flail away at your target with chain punches until, hopefully, you break through and start to do some damage.
sometimes the efficiency in wingchun isnt always plowing through our opponents defenses to get a punch or two in (or a few hundred depending on your approach:rolleyes: ) sometimes it is about neutralizing and oppening up our opponent to better deliver our attacks more effectively.

reneritchie

10-09-2002, 09:26 AM

Gnugear also has a good point, just attacking can be clumsy and the domain of more external arts.

That's akin to saying just neutralizing can be clumsy and the domain of the more hippie-lingo oriented. I think we have to assume some level of WCK competence no matter the approach or semantical differences...

RR

red5angel

10-09-2002, 09:36 AM

"That's akin to saying just neutralizing can be clumsy and the domain of the more hippie-lingo oriented. I think we have to assume some level of WCK competence no matter the approach or semantical differences..."

I agree, you cant have too much of either or too little.

"Neutralizing does nothing but neutralizes the attack (unless people are using neutralize to mean something else). If you attack me and I neutralize, I've done nothing to change the mindset (you are still attacking, I'm defending), nothing to change the timing (you've set a beat, I'm following it), in short, nothing to improve my situation or put myself in the advantage. You will, in all likelyhood, just continue attacking me."

This was where the contention was. Neutralizing doesnt imply you have arrived at a position where no one can act, just that you have stopped an incoming attack. This should help to open you ropponent up to your own offense. But what are you going to do if some guys just comes in slugging? Start slugging back with not a care in the world for what or where his attacks are? wingchun is smarter then that, redirection, getting your opponent off balance I would say are all methods of neutralization. Once neutralized you can make a connection and "listen" to your opponetn properly and hopefully open him up to attack.