Chi Sao competitions.....

[red5angel]

chi sao competition test many things,-
- root
- cool head
- neutralization skill
- ability to hit and control the opponent
- body structure under pressure

[old jong]

I would prefer to watch syncronised swimming without bathing suits!;)

[reneritchie]

Nope. Chi Sao tests those things. What does that leave the competition to do? Feed egotism? Increase tension among factions? Allow judges to resort to fisticuffs? Create threads on message boards?

[red5angel]

RR - "Feed egotism? Increase tension among factions? Allow judges to resort to fisticuffs?"

If that is what you get into. One could also treat it as a learning experience, why are the things I am doing not working like I
thought they would. why is that working better then this?
How about a getting together and sharing of knowledge, instead of closing your mind and starting an inter lineage war or rivalry, why not ask what we are doing differently and what makes it work so well. Wouldnt you agree that in this case everyone benefits and walks away "winning"?

RR - why do you come to this forum, serious question?

[reneritchie]

Dude, you don't need a tournament for that, just any old get together. In fact, the tournament probably gets in the way more than it enables. Read previous comments. Organize a pic nik. Create an atmosphere where productive learning is possible. I've travelled to BC, Ohio, NY, LA and further to meet and Chi Sao with other WCK people. There were no rings, no pajamas, no competitive agendas, and no judging shenanigans, just WCK.

r5a - Why do you ask people why they come to this forum?

RR

[red5angel]

RR - "Dude, you don't need a tournament for that, just any old get together. In fact, the tournament probably gets in the way more than it enables. Read previous comments. Organize a pic nik. Create an atmosphere where productive learning is possible. I've travelled to BC, Ohio, NY, LA and further to meet and Chi Sao with other WCK people. There were no rings, no pajamas, no competitive agendas, and no judging shenanigans, just WCK. "

well picnics and such are fine but whats the difference really? If you are doing chi sao with people there or at a tournemant, other then you find out for sure whether your wingchun sucks or not...... LOL! I wonder how many picnics the old timer used to organize in wingchun when they wanted to find out if what they got really works..... I'm not training for ice cream socials and days at the park, its nice to hang out with freinds but seriously....

"r5a - Why do you ask people why they come to this forum?"

nice deflection :rolleyes: a classic

[reneritchie]

r5a - how many Chi Sao tournaments did the 'old timers' hold? And since they didn't have access to modern technology, should we reconsider our use of these darn computers to?

What's the difference? At a get-to-gether, its just you and your WCK. No excuses about rules or judges, no BS about rounds or time limits, no whining about bracketing or results. It's just you, your WCK, and the chance to try hands and actually learn about the art, not about some promoter's idea of what Chi Sao competition should be. Are other people watching you in a tournament a concern of yours? Because they watch at gatherings too. Sure, you don't get the pretty medal, but you get to know how your cultivation is coming, and what everyone else is doing. But myself and others have said this before, which leads me to wonder if you reading these threads? Are you considering the opinions expressed by others of diverse backgrounds, locations, and experiences? Are you entertaining for a moment that through these experiences they might have formed an opinion that could prove valuable to you?

If not, I urge you to reread them (especially considering these seem so much at odds with a lot of your other opinions on WCK, which while presumptious and often un-PC, are pretty decent)

And it wasn't a deflection, just the appropriate response for the question.

RR
(Wondering what r5a will think of these threads 5 or 10 years from now...)

[red5angel]

RR - I have read and considered everything everyone has said, if you will notice I am the one who has agreed that yes picnicks, get togethers and such work, as well as UFC style tournemants or fighting in the streets for that matter, whatever flips your switch. I am the one NOT discounting the idea of testing my wingchun skills through chi sao so be fair here. dont accuse me of being close minded when it isnt an issue. I agree that ANY of these things can be beneficial on many levels, including talking here on this forum ;). You can learn from any environment. I think that it is good for those who like a little competition, it can still be constructive and doesnt have to be negative.

[reneritchie]

r5a - Fair enough, then you don't see *any* downside to Chi Sao tournaments?

RR

[old jong]

Such as: Ingraining rules in your normally free and flowing reactions?....(I assume here!) In other words; Looking at the finger pointing at the moon instead of the moon?...(Poetic!);)

[anerlich]

So redboy's wasted many an electron on other threads putting down ring fighting, then, because his instructor/love interest decides to enter students a chi sao tournament, suddenly it's all wonderful and we're all d0rks for not travelling hundreds or thousands of miles to enter "walking the walk instead of talking the talk"?

Is "hypocrisy" in YOUR vocabulary?

I wonder how many MORE threads redboy can start on this subject?

I said on the other thread that this is OK provided you don't try to make it into more than it is. IMO it's an interesting curiosity and diversion from REAL sportfighting competition, and REAL WC training.

I'm certainly not going to be rushing up to the "Cleveland Chi Sao champion" and asking for an autograph.


dont accuse me of being close minded when it isnt an issue

Must be time to change my sig.

[aelward]

I think the previous (and ongoing thread) proves Rene's point that tournaments bring out the worst in people and do more to create rivalries, thick egos, etc. For example, people question the results and people from the schools that performed well go all out to defend the legitimacy of those results.

That said, I have competed in a chi sao tournament, and sent students to another as well. As a result, I can tell you that they generally do NOT reflect the quality of someone's chi sao, let alone the quality of their WC. Generally speaking, they devolve into flailing/shoving matches. And they tend to be incredibly biased based on who is judging; and everyone always rationalizes their win or loss. It would be far better to enter a sparring division and see if you can work your WC against someone trying to beat your head in, and where results are generally less in question.

As RR says, picnics and other gatherings on a non-competitive basis tend to be far more rewarding (though people STILL rationalize their good/poor performances relative to others) in terms of getting to know new people, feeling different hands, etc.

[aelward]

r5a, have you ever competed in a chi sao tournament? I think it is hilariously funny and ironic how much you promoted the last one, and apparently didn't turn up. In any case, if you have never competed, then how do you draw your aforementioned conclusions:

> chi sao competition test many things,-
> - root
> - cool head
> - neutralization skill
> - ability to hit and control the opponent
> - body structure under pressure

[anerlich]

Originally posted by aelward
I think it is hilariously funny and ironic how much you promoted the last one, and apparently didn't turn up.

If that is so ...

Then it's even more ironic and ridiculous when he makes veiled accusations about the rest of us lacking dedication and guts for not entering ourselves. I live the other side of the Pacific ocean from him, but I gather that pitiful excuse for non-attendance is not good enough.

Now who's not "walking the walk, just talking the talk?"

[red5angel]

RR - I think a thing can be what you make it. If you want to make a chi sao tournemant, or any other tournemant a negative experience then you probably will. But if you extract the "negative attitude" factor from it then what downsides are there?

Anerlich, you are slowing down my freind, I have never posted anything putting down ring fighting. I dont think UFC or any other so called reality fighting venue is any closer to real fighting then anything else, but other then that I have never spoken bad about it. But thanks for playing I have some wonderful parting gifts for you........

Aelward
"Generally speaking, they devolve into flailing/shoving matches."

Sounds like an issue of level of competence in the participants to me.

"in terms of getting to know new people"

its a nice sentiment but I didnt realize that competitions were supposed to be social venues as well?

"I think it is hilariously funny and ironic how much you promoted the last one, and apparently didn't turn up"

I find it hilariously funny and ironic that I posted the topic up for those who were interested, and your assumption that I was going was false. I dont know how your school works but we do not go to tournemants until we have been told we are ready. If I am not ready then I am not ready and I have no problem waiting. As for the second question thats not so funny but common sense to anyone with good wingchun skill.

Anerlich - "Then it's even more ironic and ridiculous when he makes veiled accusations about the rest of us lacking dedication and guts for not entering ourselves"

Your assumptions are tiring and your not so veiled flames are boring. I have, again, not accused anyone of lacking dedication for not going. I have argued that they have their place, but again thank you for playing, please come again.

[black and blue]

My Chi Sau isn't good enough to enter a competition, but even if they were I'd give it a miss.

Some of the rules were...

Not Permitted:

3. Punching, elbow, or chopping at the opponent's head or neck
4. Wild, swinging punches which show a lack of ``bridging"
5. Kicking to the opponent's groin area or to any part of his or her legs

The head and neck are prime targets in my book - I wouldn't want to eliminate them. And wild swinging punches might not be the WC way... but even bad techniqes have their place. Kicking is my secret weapon in chi sau :D

Other than those reasons, I liked what Rene had to say on the subject. I think it's more productive to meet a bunch of friends in the park and chi sau without rules, refs, rings etc.

And hey!

Not permitted...

9. Talking back disrespectfully to any official
10. Using foul language or gestures toward anyone present during the competition

These are the only two reasons to turn up and 'watch' any competition :p

[reneritchie]

As I said, I've competed in judo and point Karate, and never had a problem with it since the arts had evolved to have sport as their focus (which is something I hope never happens to WCK). I also attended the first Chi Sao competition in Toronto organized by the CCKSF some 10 years back, and it gave the Taiji Tuishou competiton a run for its money as "best shoving match of the year" (and like bad pro-wrestling, they even had one of the competitors try to jump the host ;) )

Maybe I'm crazy, though. Maybe there should be Wing Chun Olympics with Saam Gok Ma 100m, WCK kick ball, short-punch board breaking, Chi Sao matches (par terre optional ;), SLT marathons, and a pole/knife bi-athalon. Least ways it would attract away all the trendy types and give the rest of us some breathing space in the training room...


RR

[reneritchie]

B&B - You can't eliminate head strikes, it leads to people who have absolutely no ability to defend their heads. Maybe for beginners, but IMHO, since WCK uses short power, it should be *no problem at all* for anyone with skill to touch a partner on the head (or anywhere else) and just *not* faat ging.

If they're relying on speed or power for their WCK, maybe there will be a problem, but then they probably shouldn't be interacting with others freely yet. And if they've been doing it a while and can't Chi Sao without hurting somebody, they're incompetent, deliberately out to hurt people, or need to invest in a little loss to bring the skill out.

JMHO

[red5angel]

RR - I did a few karate point sparring tourneys way back in high school and had a lot of fun.
I still dont think there is anything wrong with the competition chi sao tourneys, its not a sport fighting competition, and yes the rules suck but all tourneys have rules. theres nothing wrong with an organized format for testing your ability. Its about skill and control and testing that in a competitive environment where those skills can be pushed. of course there are more rigorous ways, open tourneys, etc... and less structured places, picnics, etc, but there is no reason why they cant be taken as seriously as any of these others.

[aelward]

I got this quote from another discussion about SanShou; not sure who the author or title of the book are, but I think it has some bearing on our discussion (though I don't necessarily agree with all of it):

"Sport applications of combative systems, such as competitive taekwondo, karate-do, and judo, are not martial arts. Putting a combative system in the competitive arena requires an array of to be placed on it, constraining its maneuvers and detrimentally modifying its technical application. In time, as "players" are trained in how to work within the rules to best win the game, the system evolves to fit the framework of those rules. What is effective in the constrained, competitive environment is osften worthless in the no-holds-barred world of actual combat, and what is effective in com bat, being illegal in sport, gradually fades from the training program and is lost."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Basically, the idea is that competitors tailor their method to suit the rules; and if those rules are of a different format from what you are used to training, then you are NOT testing your ability. For example:

> 5. Kicking to the opponent's groin area or to any part of his or
> her legs

Which implies that you CAN kick above the waist. The tournament I entered in DID allow kicks ABOVE the waist-- something that my lineage frowns upon. The guy who won the tournament basically did so on repeated double-lap sao w/stomach kick-- which if you are not allowed to use stop kicks (i.e, a kick to any part of your opponent's legs), it is not exactly the easiest thing to counter.

Another rule was the ring size-- get pushed out of the ring, and you lose points. Well, most of the competitors were trying to push their opponent's out of the ring-- it devolved into a sumo competition, but without the cool techniques that sumo players use.

Other people have already criticized the illegality of headshots.

Another rule from different chi sao tournament I went to: "No mandhandling your opponent." At this one, a really big guy manhandled someone from his own school and was judged to be the victor. When he manhandled someone from the judge's school in the next round, though, he lost. Lots of consistency there.... not to mention that a Wing Chun person should optimize his physical advantages: if you are bigger and stronger, then use your size and strength.

That said, r5a's assumption that chi sao tournaments are good for testing your skill are ludicrous, unless you define your skill by the rules set forth in tournament. and if you do define your skill this way, I have a doubt that your Wing Chun will be very effective. (btw r5a, the "you" here is not specifically you, per se, just the general "you," meaning everyone).

[red5angel]

while rules by their very nature are restrictive, all tournemants have rules, and those rules should still allow the participants to utilize a good portion of their skill, this is of course determined by those who hold the tournemant.
Regardless, if you have the skill and ability you should be able to use the skills you have as well as anyone else.
For example aelward, the guy who used the kicks to win the tourney you participated in, whether your lineage frowns on those kicks or not, other arts and lineages do not and you should know how to handle those, or be prepared to adapt to situations like this.
I define skill by ability to perform under pressure, ability to adapt to any situation, abiltity to use the skills I am taught to use in the best and most efficient way possible to reach my goal.
There is too much whining about rules and regulations in my opinion, there are no rules on the street so who knows what sort of restrictions will be put on you? you can come up with all sorts of outrageous but possible situations to mimick any set of rules that may be utilized? what are you going to do when you can t use your full arsenal in the street, complain the guy to death?

[aelward]

>> "Generally speaking, they devolve into flailing/shoving
>> matches."
>
> Sounds like an issue of level of competence in the participants
> to me.

ROFL, just the response I expected from you. We will have to see if my next prediction is true: I am projecting that based on your "my way is better than yours" attitude, you will be the first to sink into frustrated flailing and shoving when you match up against someone will equal or better skill. Because in your desire to prove the superiority of your way, you will end up relying on something outside of skill if your way isn't good enough to "neutralize" your opponent.


>> "in terms of getting to know new people"
>
> its a nice sentiment but I didnt realize that competitions were
> supposed to be social venues as well?

Jesus, yes. I've met some incredibly wonderful people at tournaments, who I would have never had the chance to meet otherwise (from my style and others). The great thing about these events is that they draw great masters and a wide variety of schools from a large area. Though I guess the not to great, since Mineapolis was just a little to far from Canton (Ohio, not China).


>> "I think it is hilariously funny and ironic how much you
>> promoted the last one, and apparently didn't turn up"
>
> I find it hilariously funny and ironic that I posted the topic up for
> those who were interested, and your assumption that I was
> going was false.

Then we can both laugh together. hahahahah!


> I dont know how your school works but we do not go to
> tournemants until we have been told we are ready.

I guess your school doesn't have a similar rule for Wing Chun evangelism on internet forums.... :P

[aelward]

r5a writes:
> For example aelward, the guy who used the kicks to win the
> tourney you participated in, whether your lineage frowns on
> those kicks or not, other arts and lineages do not and you
> should know how to handle those, or be prepared to adapt to
> situations like this.

Actually, I rolled against this guy, and my normal solution in training-- a stop kick to the opponent's ankle-- got me a warning for "kicking an opponent anywhere on the leg." So yes, it works (as would another one of our solutions-- a rising knee to an opponent's inner thigh--from last kick in Chum Kiu) outside of the rules setting, just not in tournament :P

[red5angel]

Aelward, I have always said that I would rather utilize the tools I am training to use as precise as possible, and loose, then resort to something else and win. Why bother entering a competition that specific and not use it? The point my friend is that I wont have to go outside of what I learn, its good enough, the failure would be within me. But it goes to show what sort of community we have when everyone whines or complains about all the whining at things like these competitions instead of learning form their mistakes and their successes.
Its still question of competance in my mind, you yourself said it was an issue, if so , why do you think it happens that way?

Its great to meet people anywhere, bt I dont go to competitions to meet people, I go to compete, meeting people is of secondary, atleast, importance. If I wanted to meet people I would organize a picnick.

Its about skill aelward, pure and simple. They exist to test yours. If you get into one and dont do so well, then you take away from it hopefully something to help you improve as time goes on.

[red5angel]

"Actually, I rolled against this guy, and my normal solution in training-- a stop kick to the opponent's ankle-- got me a warning for "kicking an opponent anywhere on the leg." So yes, it works (as would another one of our solutions-- a rising knee to an opponent's inner thigh--from last kick in Chum Kiu) outside of the rules setting, just not in tournament :P"

I understand what you are saying, and I might even agree that these may be the most efficient ways of dealing with an attack like this they are not the only way and I think that anyone who enters a competition should be able to adapt. Its what we should be training for anyway, to learn to adapt instantly to a situation as it arises.
If someone has a problem adapting then they should ask themselves what the problem is. Is the way they study too technique based? Have they been able to address a situation like this before? Is it a gap in knowledge or a gap in training that has stopped it?

[aelward]

r5a writes:
> I think that anyone who enters a competition should be able to
> adapt. Its what we should be training for anyway, to learn to
> adapt instantly to a situation as it arises.
>
> If someone has a problem adapting then they should ask
> themselves what the problem is. Is the way they study too >
> technique based? Have they been able to address a situation
> like this before? Is it a gap in knowledge or a gap in training
> that has stopped it?

All valid points. I hope that you find your tournament career a useful experience. You will find that there won't be many competitors, though, since it seems like the majority of people feel the same way I do.

[red5angel]

Aelard, thanks. I think it will be on many levels. Like I said I think the majority of what any individual gets from a competition is really based on what they are looking to get out of it.

[Shadowboxer]

Generally speaking, they devolve into flailing/shoving
>> matches."
>
> Sounds like an issue of level of competence in the participants
> to me.

I've been biting my tongue for a while about this. I've seen video from the Great Lakes tournament from last year where Carl's students as well as others do just what I've posted above. It's not about chi-sao skill it was about shoving the opponent out of the ring for points- a complete waste of time, and talk about lack of structure.
On the other hand, I went to the Taiji Legacy tournament this year. I decided not to compete because of the chi-sao I witnessed at the previous year - full of stiffness and shoving. Plus, I had a new camera that I wanted to use to film with. The best part of the tournament was meeting people from Sifu Fong's lineage for a beer and touching hands with them until the early hours of the morning. The next day, we met Sifu Fong and actually were priveleged enough to touch hands briefly with him before they flew back home. Simply incredible!!- the best part of the tournament. I sent them some footage of them from the tournament and several of my brothers and I are going to their annual seminar in May of 2003.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
The best part of the tournament was meeting people from Sifu Fong's lineage for a beer and touching hands with them until the early hours of the morning. The next day, we met Sifu Fong and actually were priveleged enough to touch hands briefly with him before they flew back home. Simply incredible!!- the best part of the tournament. I sent them some footage of them from the tournament and several of my brothers and I are going to their annual seminar in May of 2003. Notice the two words:'Simply incredible!!...' What will be R5A comment to that?...;)

[aelward]

Which Sifu Fong are we talking about (Augustine Fong? Francis Fong? Alan Fong? Fong Sai-Yuk?)?

If it is Sifu Augustine Fong, I must say one of the best chi sao tournament experiences I have had was watching him demonstrate the rules:

round one: you attack-- Sifu Fong completely and effortlessly demolishes his demonstration partner.

round two: you defend-- Sifu Fong completely and effortlessly buries all attacks that his demonstration partner throws at him.

round three: both attack-- (see round one).

[Shadowboxer]

Augustine Fong.

Fong Sai Yuk- that's funny!:D

[yuanfen]

Does r5's reaction really matter? he will post his common wallah stuff and his contradictions- bit did you really touch his hands,
did you have the right positioning, but you have to touch other hands etc etc.
Augustine Fong is Fong Chi Wing.

who is fong sai yuk?
I missed the reason for the smiley.

[reneritchie]

Fong Sei-Yuk is second perhaps only to Wong Fei-Hung as folk-hero of Southern China. In legend he was the son of Fong Dak and Miu Tsui-Fa, bathed in Dit Daat Jow since birth, and trained by Ng Mui. Jet Lee made a movie or two as him.

RR

[old jong]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Does r5's reaction really matter? he will post his common wallah stuff and his contradictions- bit did you really touch his hands,
did you have the right positioning, but you have to touch other hands etc etc.
Augustine Fong is Fong Chi Wing

Hey Joy!...You stole his lines!;)
R5A... You really hate when people say others than Carl can be good....Eh?....Just teasing you.;)

[red5angel]

Old jong, ;) If the guy thought Fong was good what can I say, I have never met Fong. I am sure he could probably beat me but does that make him good ;) By the way OJ, I should come find you and give you a little chi sao lesson just for posting that pic in that other thread!!!!:eek:

Shadowboxer, you may want to ask atleastimnotyou about that tourney, but I know what you talk about and your observations are lowsy, you should touch hands with them first to see what it is they are doing.

[old jong]

Never underestimate others! (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/random/trouble77~7.jpg)
Where are you in your progression Red?...Are you in chum Kiu now?....:)

[red5angel]

LOL! OJ, nice link. I havent started chum kui under the Leung sheung system. I had to start over when I started the new lineage. Its been well worth it however.

[reneritchie]

Maybe these guys (http://www.mcdojo.com/dl_goto.asp?id=46) should enter?

[Shadowboxer]

Well, perhaps my observations are lousy. I don't think so. Perhaps, I'll edit the video into .mpg format, post a link and see what others observe.

[yuanfen]

If the guy thought Fong was good what can I say, I have never met Fong. I am sure he could probably beat me

((doubt that would evr enter his mind))

but does that make him good

((true- thats no test of being good.))

Shadowboxer, you may want to ask atleastimnotyou about that tourney, but I know what you talk about and your observations are lowsy,

((lowsy...sic?))

I havent started chum kui under the Leung sheung system. I had to start over when I started the new lineage. Its been well worth it however.

(When I met this seemingly healthy young man- late twenti-sh-not only did he not know anybody's chum kiu- he made some stiff moves in an incomplete slt- from a lineage he couldnt quite remember or identify.He dint know anybody's slt.
But the mouthboxing (his term) makes him the most prolific troller
on this list))

[gnugear]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Maybe these guys (http://www.mcdojo.com/dl_goto.asp?id=46) should enter?

LOL!!! :D

Those bike shoes must really test your stance!

[yuanfen]

Shadowboxer- a clip would be good- people can make up their own minds.

Rene- were those chi sao judges who came in close to see who was attacking and who was defending?

[gnugear]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Maybe these guys (http://www.mcdojo.com/dl_goto.asp?id=46) should enter?

LOL!!! :D

Those bike shoes must really test your stance!

[Tao of She]

Perhaps I'm a bit late entering my two cents on the Chi Sao tournament, but here's my take on it. I was at the Canton tournament as a spectator. While I've been in Wing Chun for a year and still very much a neophyte, I know what a good root looks like and the the guys who placed had it. Since they are from the same school then obviously that shows their training is uniform and the ability to be grounded and absorb and dispel energy is effective.
As for whether tournaments are viable methods to measure ability, you can debate forever. I agree with Atleastimnotyou in that every opportunity you have to touch hands with another is valuable. Moerover, it's good because it takes you out of your comfort zone. When you work with the same people all the time it's comfortable and familiar-even if your peers have outstanding ability. You absorb each other's energy and have a more intimate knowledge of each. In the tournament, you don't know your oppponent. It's more real life. The bottom line is personal growth occurs when the comfort zone is left behind and you have to stand alone in an unfamiliar situation.
Lastly, for me personally, watching the tournament rekindled my desire to train harder and to embrace Wing Chun at a deeper level. I'm going to participate in the next tournament. I've set a goal that I intend to meet. It gave me back the fire in the belly. That in and of itself was worth it

[aelward]

Originally posted by reneritchie
> Maybe these guys should enter?

Memo: do not wear bike helmet to next full contact tournament; might get knocked off after the first shot.

jk

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by r5a
LOL! I wonder how many picnics the old timer used to organize in wingchun when they wanted to find out if what they got really works.....

Ever hear of beimo? And also, they would 'organise' street fights and challenges against other styles' kwoon. Putting restrictions on a training drill is a far cry from testing 'if what they got really works'.

Originally posted by r5a
There is too much whining about rules and regulations in my opinion, there are no rules on the street so who knows what sort of restrictions will be put on you? you can come up with all sorts of outrageous but possible situations to mimick any set of rules that may be utilized?

OK, I agree, who knows what kind of restrictions would be put on you :rolleyes:? Would a real life fighting situation preclude me from using shots to the head and neck, and kicks/knees below the waist? In my experience, the biggest restrictions in the 'real world' (TM) are those on your footwork: lack of rooting due to a slippery surface, or 'too much rooting' (no mobility, danger of twisting your ankle etc) due to sticky/uneven surfaces (Oh yeah, that's who knows... or at least has some idea... people who have actually had to use the arts :p ).

So it's useful to practise any drills with restrictions on freedom of movement and ability to root, but to deliberately restrict the reflex principles I have been programming for the last 12 years? To deliberately use only half of my weapons?

No.

Originally posted by r5a
Its about skill aelward, pure and simple. They exist to test yours. If you get into one and dont do so well, then you take away from it hopefully something to help you improve as time goes on.

Again, what am I going to take away that I can't learn from an 'ordinary' session of chi sao? How NOT to use some of my principles and the weapons at my disposal? How about a sitting down competition...! Or back to that ice-cream social!

You can practise chi sao in all manner of ways: when you are both soft and relaxed, you have an excellent opportunity to learn a great deal from each other. And then when you've both had a bad day at work, and family problems, and you're both stiff as boards, and can't find that little ping zen switch in the back of your head that tells you you're in the kwoon and you can relax and forget everything... you can practise chi sao with the sole (but hopefully non-competitive because you're still not thinking) intention of knocking each others blocks off, you have an excellent opportunity to learn a great deal from each other.

In the second case you are in effect trying to forget everything, and sometimes the baby goes out with the bathwater, so you are maybe being too brutal for the classic chi sao sensitivity drill, but what you have is more like fighting, and is using your chi sao skills when the pressure is on and you're not feeling your best or using your skills optimally. That's chi sao: that's life. With fewer restrictions than a competition and more to take away with you as a test of yourself and your skills.

Originally posted by r5a
I understand what you are saying, and I might even agree that these may be the most efficient ways of dealing with an attack like this they are not the only way and I think that anyone who enters a competition should be able to adapt. Its what we should be training for anyway, to learn to adapt instantly to a situation as it arises.

Again, you are talking about adapting to more and more unrealistic restrictions! Why would you want to do this?!

And out of interest, r5, what would you do against the lop-stomach kick within competition rules? If you don't have any techniques you can think of to counter it, please illustrate with a general principle. The only general principles I think of, which are now getting to be my reflex actions, such as hitting the nearest target with the nearest available weapon, or kicking the post leg, would appear to violate the rule on not kicking below the waist... Any suggestions?

Originally posted by r5a
If someone has a problem adapting then they should ask themselves what the problem is. Is the way they study too technique based? Have they been able to address a situation like this before? Is it a gap in knowledge or a gap in training that has stopped it?

Yes, the way I train is obviously too technique based :rolleyes: ... if I can I go along the centreline and attack the jaw with my elbow, the nuts with my knee or foot, and the nose with my head. Every time? Of course not! So these aren't techniques, they are examples of one of the principles of wingchun.

Have I been able to address a situation with unrealistic restrictions like this before? No.

Would I want to? Again the answer must be NO.




Surely the most important thing about a chi sao competition would be control? Having the angle, having the structure, having the timing, to be confident in controlling your opponent and having the option of letting him go, putting him down, finishing him off, or giving him a couple of stout warning shots... But once again, how are you going to learn to control the dangerous techniques if they are disallowed by the rules? these are the very techniques you need to employ under pressure.

Originally posted by Tao of She
As for whether tournaments are viable methods to measure ability, you can debate forever.

Welcome to the board ToS.

I have yet to see this debate on this thread. All we have seen so far is r5a parroting his original presumption... ((Originally posted by r5a
chi sao competition test many things,-
- root
- cool head
- neutralization skill
- ability to hit and control the opponent
- body structure under pressure))... which shows nothing other than what you gain from standard chi sao... and then picking holes in everybody else's debate. If you have no argument to support yourself, just arguments with other people's arguments, you are not debating, and are probably a bit short of a valid argument at all. But don't worry, you'll get used to r5! :D

Originally posted by ToS
Moerover, it's good because it takes you out of your comfort zone.

No. Giving you more rules and fewer weapons puts you into more of a comfort zone. If you want to leave your comfort zone with unfamiliar and unnecessary rules, go spar a boxer using your wingchun!

Good luck with your wingchun, but if you think that entering a competition for a non-competitive training exercise is going to help you find wingchun at a deeper level, you're really going to need it!

In practice wingchun is about striking and/or controlling your opponent's centre of mass. In theory, there are angles... boy, are there angles!! It doesn't get any deeper, and that's pretty deep right there...!

[anerlich]

I have, again, not accused anyone of lacking dedication for not going.

No but you've made plenty of such for people not turning up to Carl's seminar (the "stop the mouthboxing and lay it all down"quote of yours came from that, good advice but it applies to you perhaps more than most others), or for not visiting the 16+ WC schools all over the midwest like you did.

You also commented somewhere about, I paraphrase, how how tragic it was that when something like this comes along "everyone seems to have other things to do".

It's fine to criticise as long as you don't exclude yourself when it's inappropriate.

As for thinly veiled flame attempts, that is one of very few areas in which I admit to being very much your inferior. You were the ONLY flamer on my "REAL real street situation" with that stupid 300+ streetfight crack that rightly got deleted. Actually that's a bit unfair, as there was nothing "thinly veiled" about it.

Criticism has more weight if you aren't more deserving of it than the object of your criticism.

[Redd]

Originally posted by Tao of She
Perhaps I'm a bit late entering my two cents on the Chi Sao tournament, but here's my take on it. I was at the Canton tournament as a spectator. While I've been in Wing Chun for a year and still very much a neophyte, I know what a good root looks like and the the guys who placed had it. Since they are from the same school then obviously that shows their training is uniform and the ability to be grounded and absorb and dispel energy is effective.
As for whether tournaments are viable methods to measure ability, you can debate forever. I agree with Atleastimnotyou in that every opportunity you have to touch hands with another is valuable. Moerover, it's good because it takes you out of your comfort zone. When you work with the same people all the time it's comfortable and familiar-even if your peers have outstanding ability. You absorb each other's energy and have a more intimate knowledge of each. In the tournament, you don't know your oppponent. It's more real life. The bottom line is personal growth occurs when the comfort zone is left behind and you have to stand alone in an unfamiliar situation.
Lastly, for me personally, watching the tournament rekindled my desire to train harder and to embrace Wing Chun at a deeper level. I'm going to participate in the next tournament. I've set a goal that I intend to meet. It gave me back the fire in the belly. That in and of itself was worth it

Nothing wrong with your opinion. It cannot be considered objective if you are under Carl. Who do you learn from?

[reneritchie]

Matt is correct. Anerlich is correct.

One thing I'll add is that some arts have proven that by removing the most dangerous techniques for the benefit of sport competition, that can train harder, longer, and against more resistant opponents than otherwise possible (judo, bjj, etc.) However, WCK is different in kind from these arts, and I'd suggest that Chi Sao has already developed to best fit this paradigm in WCK without rules or sport competition, and that by pushing it over that edge, it does nothing to better the training, and in fact restricts to the point of diminishing returns. (And I'd probably argue that while sport judo and bjj and the like have helped evolve and keep fresh those arts, the international rules of competition have also made them less effective than the plain old dojo randori/rolling as they've created a generation of people whose strategies have changed from combat conclusion (securing the ippon or submission) to obtaining a lead in points and stalling to victory).

RR

[red5angel]

Mat, you take from it what you want to. Its a different environment and it definitely test basic wingchun skill, restrictions or not.

Anerlich - You missed the point, if you arent searching you wont find anything.

Shadowboxer, if you have video, why not?

[Shadowboxer]

My WC brother has the tape. I will be out of town for a week. When I get back, that will be the first thing I do. To be fair, I will include the best and the worst examples of "chi sao" on that tape. That alright with you O.M. ?

[old jong]

found this article. (http://members.aol.com/melillojohn/Chi_Sao.htm)
At least it proves that others think that way too!

[reneritchie]

OJ - Are you going to the UCC in Verdun by any chance?

RR

[old jong]

I never went before.Sometimes ,I think I should see that live.
When is the next one?

[reneritchie]

OJ - Tommorow night, man! I've been to two and enjoyed both quite a bit. Here's the info:

(and I'm sure anyone who wants to Chi Sao is more than welcome!)

UCC 11: THE NEXT LEVEL

Friday, October 11th 2002

Verdun Auditorium

Montreal, Quebec

Call for tickets: 1-800-361-4595

MAIN EVENT – HEAVYWEIGHT SUPERFIGHT

“THE FRENCH HURRICANE” CHRISTOPHE MIDOUX vs. JEREMY HORN

WORLD MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPIONSHIP

DAVID “THE CROW” LOISEAU vs. JESSE JONES

HEAVYWEIGHT SUPERFIGHT

TBA vs. TIM “THE GRIZZLY BEAR” SYLVIA


CANADIAN WELTERWEIGHT CHAMPIONSHIP

TRAVIS GALBRAITH vs. GEORGES “RUSH” ST-PIERRE


CANADIAN SUPER LIGHTWEIGHT CHAMPIONSHIP

STEVE “THE SNAKE” CLAVEAU vs. MARK “THE MACHINE” HOMINICK

WELTERWEIGHT CHALLENGE

PAIN PETERS vs. DONALD OUIMET


SUPER LIGHTWEIGHT CHALLENGE

SHANE RICE vs. RICHARD NANCOO


LIGHTWEIGHT CHALLENGE

JUSTIN BRUCKMANN vs. FREDERIC POIRIER


MIDDLEWEIGHT CHALLENGE

DENIS KANG vs. JOE DOERKSEN


LIGHTWEIGHT CHALLENGE

SCOTT CLAY vs. DAVID GOULET

[old jong]

I have an engagement with my wife tomorrow and I'm sure you don't want to read the headline '' Man slauthered by his wife because he broke engagement in favor of UCC!''

Hey ,I would like to go with you next times and maybe have a beer and poutine after?....;)

[red5angel]

OJ - good article and I agree with most of the things said BUT ;) if the practicioner developes attacks for chi sau tourneys specifically instead of approaching the tourney the same way he would approach any other round of chi sao, then of course it is going to be a bad thing.
If you go into a tournemant like this with any other attitude but that you are going to do your chi sao to the best of your ability then it is going to be of harm to your training. If your skill has to suffer, or your ability has to, in any sort of a situation then something is wrong.

[old jong]

I think,you are the creator of perpetual motion and we slided into it with you! We are going round and round always saying the same things and arguments.
Rules and the best of our/my/whatever hability's do not go together.The instant you start to prepare for a competition you begin altering your practice and adjust things for it.
We already have to deal without any realistic contact.Should we alter our best training method just to satisfy these promotors?
Some see no harm and some do. I think only the future will have the answer for this dilemma.

[Tao of She]

Matt, of course a tournament isn't a means to achieve deeper understanding or growth! How could a three minute match once or twice a year provide that? What I meant is that in the beginning or at times when your commitment or determination flag, look for the opportunities to ground yourself. Each person's motivation is different. For me, I am competitive by nature and since my skill and knowledge are at the beginning of my journey, I will take whatever footholds are available to bring me, grasp by grasp, to the next level. Besides, can't something be fun or bring pleasure without always being 'right' and 'correct'according to someone's definition? Good luck isn't the means. Practice and devotion are.

[anerlich]

Anerlich - You missed the point,.

You made a point?


if you arent searching you wont find anything.

I'm searching for the point of that statement to the discussion and haven't found it, so you might be right.

[Mr Punch]

LOL Anerlich!

You're always missing the point Anerlich! Can't you see, it's as plain as the nose on your face... hang on, I can't see that either... confused...!

You are, of course, right.


Originally posted by r5
Mat, you take from it what you want to. Its a different environment and it definitely test basic wingchun skill, restrictions or not.

No, Red, I don't. You might feel you want something you can take by putting unnatural restrictions on a drill, which has as one of its fairly fundamental raisons d'etre, the principle of developing natural movement without restrictions... I do not.

You didn't actually follow my post did you? Soorrry, it was a bit long.

Let me summarize, and forgive my paraphrasing for ease of understanding:

1) Learning in wingchun has no room for competition.

2) Chi sao is a non-competitive training drill.

3) If you want to test yourself and your wingchun you can do so by upping the intensity of your chi sao (or, unlikely and undesirable though it is nowadays, through serious challenges or beimo).

4) What you get from a competition in a training drill is little more than a push-up competition.

5) If you want to test yourself and your wingchun under pressure, under non-wingchun restrictions, try sparring someone like a boxer or a good muay thai fighter. Then you will really learn if you have internalized the principles or if you are just aping techniques. It will hurt.

6) If you really want to test your wingchun, practise it diligently every day for the rest of your life, apply the respect and energy it gives you to everyday life, and stop trying to teach everyone.



BTW Red, this

?

denotes a question in many languages. Of course, sometimes the question is rhetorical (does not require an answer) and sometimes this is made more confusing by being facetious and/or ironic.

Sometimes, they are used as the conclusion to an ungrounded assumption to imply some kind of knowing, don't you get it? and sometimes to affirm agreement/understanding, do you see?
Sometimes of course, they are there because the questioner is interested in a response.

Please read my response again, and try and work out which questions are which, and then, if it pleases you, if you can spare the time from your other important forum work: please respond!

[Mr Punch]

Oh **** me, you're related to Red5 aren't you!? :D


Originally posted by ToS
Matt,

Have you been drinking? Cos you're sure seeing double! It's Mat. It's written exactly at the spot where you got my name in order to reply to my post. I don't care that much for spelling, TOSS, me ol' fruit, but I would have thought with names it's 'common' courtesy.


of course a tournament isn't a means to achieve deeper understanding or growth! How could a three minute match once or twice a year provide that?

I'd like to believe this is genuine agreement with what I was saying, but unfortunately, as r5 is at large on this thread, the patronising tone is spreading. I'll try and keep my cynicism reined in, if you take care not to take the tone of a teacher after your one year.

Frankly though, madam (if it is indeed madam?), this comment doesn't sit very well with this:


Moerover, it's good because it takes you out of your comfort zone. When you work with the same people all the time it's comfortable and familiar-even if your peers have outstanding ability. You absorb each other's energy and have a more intimate knowledge of each. In the tournament, you don't know your oppponent. It's more real life. The bottom line is personal growth occurs when the comfort zone is left behind and you have to stand alone in an unfamiliar situation.


So you weren't talking about leaving the comfort zone behind and personal growth occuring when entering a competition, then?! :D


What I meant is that in the beginning or at times when your commitment or determination flag, look for the opportunities to ground yourself. ...For me, I am competitive by nature and since my skill and knowledge are at the beginning of my journey, I will take whatever footholds are available to bring me, grasp by grasp, to the next level.

Thank you for clarifying. But what's the relationship to chi sao competitions? In competition people are less likely to be grounded. Focussed yes, but working off adrenaline, and the desire to win, which does not fit with grounding in chi sao.

Competitiveness is fine in the right context, but chi sao is not such a context. That's why I think you'd be better served with an MMA tournament or something where you are well out of your comfort zone, and you can still practise your grounding and, if you are at a good skill level, still using your wingchun.

The next level of your wingchun, no. Supplementing your current level wingchun skills maybe. See any post by Merryprankster on the nature of competition and you'll understand what I mean.


Besides, can't something be fun or bring pleasure without always being 'right' and 'correct'according to someone's definition?

Yep. But it's not chi sao.


Good luck isn't the means. Practice and devotion are.


Congratulations, your horse is even higher than mine! :D

You're right, good luck doesn't have a place on the road of wingchun practice. I was meaning good luck because you were talking about taking a diversion from that road, so you'll need all the luck you can get!

Let's have a look at your previous post in a bit more depth:

Originally posted by Tao of She
...I know what a good root looks like and the the guys who placed had it. Since they are from the same school then obviously that shows their training is uniform and the ability to be grounded and absorb and dispel energy is effective.

How do you know this?! How could you see these things?! You must be a true prodigy! Teach us some more!

You're not r5 are you???!!!

Fantastic mixed metaphor BTW: please enjoy grasping those footholds on your journey!! :D

[Tao of She]

MAT,
Sorry about the mispell, yes there was a glass of wine at my side as I wrote, but gee. I guess I'm not a forum virgin anymore after the pen lashing you dealt me. Red5-me? I was just trying to clarify my position, I didn't realize it had a militant flavor. Take it for what it is MAT. You know, maybe my Wing Chun is basic, but paths of personal growth and motivation aren't only reserved for advanced practioners. As for my gender-do you imply the I'm boy in girl's clothes? Well, MAT, reassured that I am every bit female. So your fantasies about Red5 in fishnets and a mini skirt will have to remain in your dreams.
As for grounding, I meant getting back on track psychologocally not rooting. Every situation in life presents opportunity for growth or self discovery. You know, MAT, it appears no matter what is said-you will play devil's advocate. I look for opportunities to learn from others and I appreciate other points of view, perhaps your desire to squash others opinions is result of being over-sensitized by Red5's prosaic assaults. Relax, Man!
As for knowing a good root-I've seen and worked with people with great roots so I will say yes I know what one is.
This is turning into a p--sing contest which was not my intent. From now I'll keep some bandages and peroxide at hand to clean my wounds the next time I place a post.

[Atleastimnotyou]

MAT, as far as "seeing" a good root, you don't need to be a prodigy. Just look for: kim sut and lok ma. But to truely know if a root is good, you have to touch hands and feel it.

[red5angel]

Mat - "No, Red, I don't"

Thats all you needed to say.........

[reneritchie]

OJ - Next one's in Sherbrooke (even with Jens Pulver on the card, I ain't drivin that far! LOL!). Hopefully they won't do the Remouski, Hull, etc. tour again, tho, and it'll be back in Montreal soon enough...

RR

[aelward]

Tao of She writes:
> Well, MAT, reassured that I am every bit female. So your
> fantasies about Red5 in fishnets and a mini skirt will have to
> remain in your dreams.

Hey Mat, how did you pick up on Tao of She being a woman? I would have never guessed. As for dreams about r5a in fishnet and miniskirt, it will definitely be a nightmare! :P

r5a-- if you do decide to go in drag for halloween, please don't share any pictures with us :P

[old jong]

There was some perfume on her post!...;)

[Redd]

Originally posted by Mat
Oh **** me, you're related to Red5 aren't you!? :D


The neutral observer bit was a ruse. She is rooting for her own team.



Congratulations, your horse is even higher than mine! :D


It runs in the family. Nature or nurture?

[Mr Punch]

Tao - I'm sorry if you consider my post to have been an overreaction: I'll try and moderate my tone in future.

But:

I wasn't doubting your gender, just asking. OK, it's fairly obvious I'm a man, given the idiocy of some of my comments... but you never know on the net. I don't really think Ultimate Fighter is the ultimate fighter for example, or that Merryprankster wandered around on a multicoloured bus in the sixties taking shed-loads of acid either... though it never fails to amaze me how Old Jong manages to type with those three big stumpy limbs of his...! :D

I agree with you on the psychological rooting, but I still don't know how chi sao competition is any better for that than any other competition, or how it justifies chi sao competition. :confused:

Also, I believe (if I say IMHO, it won't make a difference to you will it!) that physical and psychological rooting are indivisible.

I wasn't trying to squash your opinion, I was asking you to clarify it, and I don't know how you think I'm playing Devil's Advocate: I've stated very clearly what I think of the subject, and it is fairly clear that I'm nobody's advocate but my own... and I didn't think my horns were that visible!!! :cool:

And also (will this man ever shut up???!!! :( ) to reiterate ALINY, working with someone's root is the only way you can really judge it: especially if you say everybody is from the same school and they have an equally good root...! How do you know they aren't all just lousy at uprooting?!

Peace, apologies, and good luck with your personal growth. I keep trying to have mine taken off by the quack but **** thing keeps coming back! :eek:



BTW, I'm nearly always relaxed. I'm so relaxed, when I write on the forum, I have to big it up a bit otherwise people think I'm dead! Maybe I should include more of these :D

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by red5angel
Mat - "No, Red, I don't"

Thats all you needed to say.........

Bloody typical. The boy finally learns brevity and maybe even a touch of discretion or diplomacy, and then decides he can teach it straight away!

Or is it just because he's got no answers to the points... for a change! Mind you, that's never stopped him before!



Always a pleasure Red.
So, when are you gonna put on that little blue number and the pantyhose again for me...? :eek: ;) :rolleyes:

[Tao of She]

Mat, peace accepted. On to more productive threads.