Fights and experience

[red5angel]

Who here feels it is necessary for one to have fought on the "street" to learn how to fight?

[yenhoi]

I dont.

But how do you know if you havent...

How do you know if you have...

Fighting is a abstract, chaotic event, you can never predict 'it'.

[old jong]

I had a few in my younger days and because of that,I can relate my Wing Chun training to some reality.I know how blood taste and the feeling you get when you smack the other guy real hard.I know also that I can take a punch and just continue.
Could that experience help me if I had to defend myself now?....You bet!

[kungfu cowboy]

Good point old jong.

[Atleastimnotyou]

it is not neccesary to have fought on the street to know how to fight. but it will help

[old jong]

Sure!...I don't mean to say it is absolutely necessary. It does not equal skill but,if you know how a punch on the nose feels and know you can go through with that pain or disconfort,it will take a very good one to stop you.It could not replace years of training in Wing Chun but experience can't hurt.

[red5angel]

I would say really turning up the training is a big help to. I have been hit a few times hard enough to make me pause!

[old jong]

This can happen!...As long as you don't pause for too long. This is the real world.;)

[Martial Joe]

I think it really helps you understand wing chun alot more.

Its necessary if you want it to be.

[Chango]

I would say that it would seem logical that practical experience would be the ultimate reference. I cannot say that you could really duplicate this in a class room. However this is not a reason to go out and start fighting. This question is a paradox in my mind. If you have never had personal real experience what reference do you really have? but once you have practical experience and find out you now stand on the other side! I can say as a now grown child martial artist it is hard for me to imagine not having some type experience. So I cannot relate personally to having no" real experience".

Chango (saat geng sau)

[hunt1]

Sorry Red wrong again. Getting a few knocks from a classmate wont do much for preparing for the real thing. No one is trying to hurt you,no fear factor at all. Facing someone with intent to hurt you moving at full speed is very very different. Any training is better than none but dont think you are at all prepared for the real thing. Hope you never have to face it but if you do you'll understand. Also unless your teacher has been in a few real fights he will never be able to totally prepare you for one.
The good news is that unless you face a trained opponent,which is rare, you will do just.

[james hfyofAZ]

Well put sibak Chongo
I have not yet been in any confrontations since high school. But I know a lot more now that I did eight years ago. I feel that if you train with a proper mind set, and you work all aspects of fight ing not just technique but the strategies concepts, and proper tactical use of your time, space, and energy. Then I would say you would do very well. Happy training

[TwoManSaw]

I agree with most of what has been stated. I dont think it is necessary to have fought in the street to succesfully defend oneself in a real life encounter, but like 'Old Jong' mentioned there are somethings that you may learn that will assist you ie. awareness of being smacked full power and the chaotic speed and atmosphere. Whilst turning up the heat in training will help you develop good reactions and simulate the 'real fight ' scenario a little better I agree with 'Hunt1' that without the full intent to hurt you are not getting the full benefit out of the experience. At my club our Sifu encourages full contact training in most areas of our learning. We have a saying that goes 'there is no malice in whacking your kung fu brothers/sisters' our philosophy is that your not doing your partners any favours by going lightly and backing off when in reality this wont occur.

TwoManSaw

[straight blast]

How strange...I was going to post a thread on a similar subject. I often hear people say that "if you or your instructor haven't used it on the street, how do you know it'll work?" Which leads me to the dilemma of where do you draw the line between creative experimentation and thuggery/assault? I'm not hugely worried about it 'cos I've had my share of biffs in my time but for a martial arts newbie who hears the above quote I have to wonder at the implications. Do we actively seek conflict to test our training?


Who here feels it is necessary for one to have fought on the "street" to learn how to fight?

I don't think that it's neccesary as such. But I certainly think it gives you an advantage in relation to dealing with adrenaline, fear, etc. Someone who has been in a fight is usually more prepared for the next one than someone who is dealing with their first. Just like anything else. The kids I knew who grew up on farms learning to drive from an early age always got their licenses quicker than those who were taught from a driving school! And were generally better drivers...:)

[james hfyofAZ]

I agree, how do you know it works? Have you seen it in action? Well from personal experience I have had my fellow brothers attack me out of the blue and some times your ready and some times you get through around. So I would say that you should have some heavy sparing with some friends. Put on the gear and jump in the ring. That's if both men agree not to kill each other. Otherwise you wouldn't really know. You would have to trust the word of others witch seams to be hard for a lot of people. Happy training.

[TkdWarrior]

umm normally u cannot go and pick up fights in street just to know if u r street effective or not, as james said u can compensate a bit with good training...if u don't hav a fear of getting hit u don't try to stop or dodge... on this theory me and my partner works...whenever we fight we use real power and never stop, if the person missed it then he gonna get hurt... yea we can ignore some places like groin, eyes. etc.
no pain no gain...
-TkdWarrior-

[Chango]

I would like to share something I think that might apply. I'm the type to constantly test my limits and find out alot on my own. So I like to try different training methods from time to time and experiment. So at least once a year I visit my cousin at the boxing gym. He is now a pro boxer so I don't dare go full rounds with him with the gloves on. But I do one or two minute rounds with him. I find the fact that he is willing to take a shot and attempt to rip my head off if I stand there really changes things. You would be suprized at how a trained boxer can offer you "bad targets"if you have not really been trained in boxing. This is why when a person says they have fought a boxer and they discribe the experience I began to question the quality of the boxers skills in some cases. Of course I'm not allowed to kick and it is physically impossible to grabb with the gloves on. I do not have any plans on beating him at his own game but the change of pace and intent is something that I find to hold some real value. Of course once the gloves are on and the rules are set we are not in realality but I'm very clear in understanding the restrictions of it being a game. However I find real value in experiencing a change of pace and the amazing amounts of energy, flow and skill that a pro can demonstrate. Now that he is a pro it is hard to get him to do anything that might risk injury. Like he said "that stuff is for real combat. Boxing is for lacing up the gloves and shoes and knock a motha---- out!" I have noticed that if I make one mistake he will start a combo before you can realize it! but then again they don't call it the sweet science for nothing! You have not been hit until you get caught by a right cross that come over your left jab! you don't see it you just hear the circus music (LOL) and in the back ground the standing eight count! At that point you hear someone mention something about a yellow brick road! Then you have entered into the panic room. "how much time left?" and " will I ever get this jello out of my legs?" and "cover and punch from time to time." "cover the body" This all goes on in seconds. If the bell rings or you fight your way out of it you have to ask your self "can I go on?" All of this happens within second! No this is not the same stress as a real fight but it is real stress non the less. I feel like my yearly visit to my cousin and the gym really helps me understand how to respond even when the lights are almost out. If you get a chance to do this I think it is well worth it. but again Kung fu is a very personal thing. Some might not see the value in this.

Chango (saat geng sau)

[bougeac]

hi, i have often thought the same thing : how can someone teach me how to fight if theyve never had a REAL fight???

Well, i think that if you as an individual who are teaching students has never used the ART you are teaching ( you may well have had scraps before taking up wing chun) you should make it your business to at least try to hook up with wing chun people who HAVE had real fighting experience using the art so you can at least absorb any knowledge, help these individuals may be able to give you as regards what seemed to work and what didnt.

surely you owe this to your students???

[black and blue]

If I did TKD and wanted to enter a competition, and was going to be coached by my instructor, I'd prefer to have an instructor that had competition experience.

If I wanted to rob a bank, and was taking advice from a bank robber, I'd prefer the hints and tips to come from a robber who 'hadn't' been caught. (Though I admit the one caught would at least know what not to do) :D

My Sifu has had real life experience and so teaches what he knows worked for him. It's traditional Wing Chun, but it certainly has a particular flavour. :)

I've been in a few encounters (none since starting up WC), and although in one of them I got a thumping :(, I value all of them.
You can't beat real experience, and, if you're really interested in self defense, you can't beat having a Sifu who's actually used what he/she teaches... and can tell you something is effective because he/she 'knows' it to be so.

However, what lets WC down is clubs that fail to focus on realistic street attacks. If people practise defense against a traditional WC punch, and practise this alone, they are in for a sore head.

Fast jabs, tight hooks, big and clumsy hooks, body shots, headbutts, football/soccer type kicks, kicks to the shins, rugby tackles, haymaker-type punches... these are the attacks you will face on the street. In short, unorthadox attacks.

Bong, tan, jut, jum, garn, etc... all of these defensive hands will work, but only if you train them to deal with the above mentioned unorthadox attacking methods.

Drilled against a straight WC punch they work well. Drilled against awkward punches... they also work well. The secret is to drill them against such attacks, and practise them in a free-flowing manner.

WC should also be practised from a 'completely' neutral stance, not just from a ready position of man sau and wu sau. Practise from the position you're actually going to be in, says Black and Blue :)

Chi sau should also incorporate unorthadox attacks.

Often WC classes focus on one-step partner work. Classes should focus on random attacks, with no-pads, and combinations.

THIS IS A MARTIAL ART!!!

We shouldn't arrive at the Kwoon and be worried about coming out of it with a few bruises and bumps. If you ever get the chance to fight for real... throw caution to the wind and go for it.

Everyone's going to say "Legal this, legal that", but as others have noted before, Yip Man encouraged his students to test their Wing Chun. Despite his (Yip Man's) obvious skill, he told his students not to trust his words alone.

Blah Blah, rant rant, bye bye ;)

[Merryprankster]

There's a big difference between knowing how to fight and "self-defense on the street."

I can fight. This I've figured out. Full contact sparring gives you a pretty good idea of what you can and can't do, strictly within a FIGHTING context (ie, we've both survived the initial contact and we know the fight is on). I have a fair sized capability standing and on the ground, and have a chin that can take a beating (not my favorite way of dealing with a punch, but good to know). Can I defend myself? Good question.

There is so much that goes beyond fighting skill in that arena, that a "style," doesn't really prepare you for. That's more about situational awareness, not walking in dark alleys, ability to judge body language, etc.

So, assuming I'm not blindsided and knocked out, or facing unreasonable odds or a weapon (weakness--definite weakness), Yeah, I can fight. Can I defend myself... Hmmmmmm....

Red5angel--side note: you have to get hit enough that getting hit like that DOESN'T make you pause. A pause is the difference between success and failure, and it's something I still struggle with, in a slightly different way. You get used to it. :D

[kj]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Can I defend myself... Hmmmmmm....

In your pondering lies the wisdom.

How effectively, and against whom, how many, and under what circumstances?

Ask a mother if a toddler in a tantrum can fight. Ask a woman who narrowly and desperately escapes from a predator with her life if she can fight.

We are warned by the ancient warriors to be wary of the unskilled as the skilled. Anyone can get lucky.

In whether or not one "can fight" there are no absolutes, for babies or big men, IMHO. "I can fight" reads great on paper though.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[red5angel]

Good thread so far,

MP- "side note: you have to get hit enough that getting hit like that DOESN'T make you pause. A pause is the difference between success and failure, and it's something I still struggle with, in a slightly different way. You get used to it. "

Absolutely! Thats why you keep ramping it up. Of course you may hit a ceiling and since I havent been a in a real fight in along time I cant tell you if it is effective, it does take some of the fear of being hit out of the equation.

[taltos]

It's been my experience that there are several levels of conflict/fighting...

1. Controlled Exercices in a training enviromnent (where you train the motions with significantly less than 100% speed and energy).

2. Controlled Sparring at up to 100% speed and energy.

3. Free Sparring at near 100% speed and energy (with your Kung Fu brothers and Sisters, so there is a chance of injury but no intention of injury).

4. Competition/Tournament Sparring. I have had this described to me as "the only controlled way to face someone you know absolutely nothing about." This is akin to #3, but introducing a real "fear of the unknown" element.

5. Real Life, No-Kidding, They-Want-Me-Dead streetfights.

In my experience, #1 teaches you body mechanics, #2 teaches you reaction timing, and #3 teaches you how to really hit and take a hit without freezing up. I've never experienced #4, and I've had my share of #5, both before and after training Martial Arts (from bare knuckle to multiple attackers to knives and sticks to guns. I ran from the guns. I haven't had any multiple attacks since learning Wing Chun, and usually lost those).

I know how to hit, and I know how to take a hit, but it's funny how you tend to lose your training and your control as you climb the ladder of intensity. You never really know until you're in it, and usually the higher the stakes, the quicker an inexperienced fighter will revert to more animalisitc tactics.

For me, the real trouble is #3. I tend to break down there and usually nowhere else. I haven't figured that one out yet.

I don't think you NEED to be in a real fight to know how to fight, but if it happens, it certainly puts things in perspective much faster than training in the school with people you'll go out for beers with after class ever could.

-Levi

[desertwingchun2]

Levi - I couldn't have said it better ....

what the fa ......

[Mr Punch]

Yenhoi, Old Jong and Hunt are right.


Originally posted by TwoManSaw
We have a saying that goes 'there is no malice in whacking your kung fu brothers/sisters' our philosophy is that your not doing your partners any favours by going lightly and backing off when in reality this wont occur.

This is dangerous. Of course it is useful training hard, and more beneficial than going lightly, but if you think this will help you in the street, be careful. People do attack with malice and it is completely different to any kwoon experience. The good news is, you can usually spot malice coming a mile away, with good use of that situational awareness.

But the worst are the people who have no intent to see coming. These are the people who will just beat you down and then beat you some more out of pure animal instinct. What did I learn by getting kicked unconscious? Have no intent. Put your intent in your fist, in the strike after your first one has already landed, in the centre of your attacker. Or better still, in your Nike Airs and halfway down the street in the opposite direction.

There is no such thing as learning how to fight on the street.

Having said that, experience is better than none, and getting kicked in is also a valuable experience.


Originally posted by BnB
If I wanted to rob a bank, and was taking advice from a bank robber, I'd prefer the hints and tips to come from a robber who 'hadn't' been caught. (Though I admit the one caught would at least know what not to do)

The list of 'robbers who have been caught' and who have gained invaluable insight into the game goes on even longer than I do!