Help with 7* PM Basic Forms

[Xue Tanglang]

Greetings,
I am wondering if anyone knows a website that explains or illustrates some basic 7* PM forms (i.e. 16 hands, etc). When I practice at home, I'd like to make sure I'm not missing any of the moves, or to jog my memory if I get stuck during a form.

Thanks,
Mike

[grifter721]

try to get some pictures from your sifu.
My best advice to you though is not to rely on them but to write your froms down yourself, and practice them everyday.

[Lisa]

"My best advice to you though is not to rely on them but to write your froms down yourself, and practice them everyday."

Good advice. In my school we're actually required to do notes. We have to draw diagrams of everything we know and write as much as we can about them. I find that it helps because it forces you to pay attention to small details that you might not always be aware of.

[Tainan Mantis]

Traditionally speaking every step and hand motion has a name. It is required by the student to memorize these.

1.
In some cases the names are poetic such as...
twin dragons emerge from the sea.

2.
Some schools use short names that only mention the key aspect such as ...
shoulder(elbow)

3.
Some follow a specific order such as the step, block and strike such as...
hill climbing stance sealing hand sieze the throat.
It becomes awkward to say so much in English while in Chinese it comes out as...
Deng shan feng sho suo ho. Almost half as short.

But for the most part schools have a combination of the three methods and use a certain one based on habit depending on the technique.

Xue Tanglang,
HK 7* schools use the third method most often.
So if you follow that tradition you would want to learn about 20-30 Chinese terms and their meaning.

But you mentioned the form 16 Hands which is a basic form unique to the Wah Lum system of PM.

They use different names for some of the same techniques and stances.

In many of the WL schools there are basic exercises that go through most of the punches and stances.
As the students go through them the Sifu and class shout out the names in Cantonese.
This will be a big help for writing it down later.

Drawing pictures is also good.
When I first came to Taiwan I drew all the applications.

[hungy]

which sifu do you train with? I am not aware of any 7 star sifu's in the LA area.

[Xue Tanglang]

I appreciate the help and am glad this forum is here.
Thanks to everyone!
Mike

[Mantis9]

Tainan Mantis

My sifu borrowed 16 hands from the Wah Lum people as a basic form for 7* as well. Of course, it has been modified to be more
7*ish.

I did not know, though, that other 7* clans also have this modified form.

Something new every day. :cool:

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantis9,
Thanks for that info.
16 Hands is a good starter form.
7*'s basic forms(duo gang, beng bu etc) aren't easy to teach beginners.

This explains Luo Guangyu's Tantuei 14 roads.
Supposedly he made them up in one evening after finding a new group of students having trouble with the difficult moves of the form he was teaching.

Mantis108 has a theory that 14 roads are based on Luo Guangyu's favorite PM form.

It seems that not many 7* schools teach them anymore.
Anybody here go to a 7* school that teaches 14 roads?

[Laughing Buddha]

I go to a school that still teaches the Fourteen Roads. However, we teach it much later in the curriculum than many might expect. My teacher has noticed in his twenty plus years of teaching that many beginners to the Mantis style (not only beginners to the martial arts), experience great difficulty in mastering techniques such as the Seven Star stance, the Mantis hook and maintaining their balance after executing the various kicks. As such, many beginners find it extremely difficult to grasp Master Law's Fourteen Roads. Master Law's Fourteen Roads is very practical and immediately applicable but it isn't easy for a complete beginner to the style to pick up. Rather than discourage them, we teach them other drills and even teach them forms such as Bung Bo, Sup Baht Sao, Tchaap Tchoi and Daw Ghong before we come back around to teach them Fourteen Roads as taught by Master Law.

[hungy]

At our school we do the fourteen roads. Its nice to now that Im at a school that still teaches traditional stuff.

[Hau Tien]

Originally posted by Laughing Buddha
I go to a school that still teaches the Fourteen Roads. However, we teach it much later in the curriculum than many might expect. My teacher has noticed in his twenty plus years of teaching that many beginners to the Mantis style (not only beginners to the martial arts), experience great difficulty in mastering techniques such as the Seven Star stance, the Mantis hook and maintaining their balance after executing the various kicks. As such, many beginners find it extremely difficult to grasp Master Law's Fourteen Roads. Master Law's Fourteen Roads is very practical and immediately applicable but it isn't easy for a complete beginner to the style to pick up. Rather than discourage them, we teach them other drills and even teach them forms such as Bung Bo, Sup Baht Sao, Tchaap Tchoi and Daw Ghong before we come back around to teach them Fourteen Roads as taught by Master Law.

Wow... Bung Bo, Daw Gong and Tsaap Tchoi before Sup Sei Lo (14 Roads)?? That seems odd to me. The techniques in those forms are much more advanced than the "basics" in Sup Sei Lo.

You mention difficulty with the mantis hook, etc... Bung Bo, Daw Gong, etc all have more mantis hook than Sup Sei Lo... at least in our branch... SSL #2 and #6 are the only ones with mantis hooks in them...

In our school we go with something called "Horse Stance Sequence" first, then the person progresses to Sup Sei Lo. After that, we go to Daw Gong, then Bung Bo, then Tsaap Tchoi, then Bhaat Sao (8 Elbows, then Tang Lang Tao Tow.

Not sure what comes after that, but as we are a part of the LGY lineage (Lo Guang Yuk, Kwok Cho Chui, Kwing Fai Kung, Mike Purnell), we definitely do 14 roads :)

[Mantis9]

Interestingly enough, we practice LGY roads and Chun Chun Yee's roads too. CCY practiced his sifu's roads, but decided to add his own. To me, some roads seem like a varation on LGY's, others a simplification, and still others completely new creations.

I suspect the two sets of roads reflect a difference in CCY and his Sifu's personalities. LGY seem techniqually precise, economically. CCY seem springy, with pop. Maybe I would says one is more mature and the other more youthful. A good blend.:cool:

Mantis9

[mantis108]

Most of you will aware that I am not a 7 Stars stylist. My interest in 7 Stars is still pretty high as I believe it has a lot to offer. One of the material that caught my eyes is the 14 Roads. It would seem that these are a collection of line drills that also translate into direct applications. Some of the roads are reminiscent of GM LGY's favorite form - Tanglang TaoTou (mantis steal peach). So in that regard, the 14 Roads may not be material for a complete novice. But for a student who has certain MA background these roads are good introduction to PM (specificly 7 Stars PM). Take Road 5 Black Tiger Steal Heart for example, which is composed of filing punch, a high cross, and a low jab, this road can either be a line drill, shadow drill, or one step application drill. Depending on what concept, principle, and technique of PM the Sifu wants to transmit, this drill basically has quite a few already (ie. Ba Da & Ba Bu Da, Tao/stealing & Pu/filling, when & where Chin Na or takedown come into play, etc...) Having said that I must also clarify that this is based on a similar drill (same 3 hands/punches but slightly different arrangement) that Tainan Mantis showed me. Anyway, my point is that Mantis stuff are generally more than meet the eyes. ;)

Mantis108

[draco]

I was told not to write forms down, memory of them would come in time (I didn't listen very well). I wrote what I could remember when I got home this also froced me to remember the form. Thinking of the form and moveing through the motions of the form are seperate.

I am mostly Wah Lum but do Peng Pu Chuan for spice.

[BeiTangLang]

Kind of silly to tell someone not to write them down! People learn diferently; some visual (seeing it), some manual (by doing it), some by reading, & some by writing it( seeing it on paper from their own minds). Its not like the forms are secret or anything, I say do what works best for you.
Best Wishes,
~BTL

[Skarbromantis]

I would agree with what BeiTangLang said, it all depends on yourself, try it, see if it works, if it does, than good, if not, try something else, it all on your self, I write them down, also I draw little stick figures, when I'm at work I play the form in my head, I do all that to remember a form, good luck.

Skard1

[Tainan Mantis]

Hua Tien,
You mentioned 8 Elbows.
From Luo Guangyu's lineage I have only heard that there is an 8 Claws. Both sound similar in Chinese, ba zhou or ba zhua.
I have also seen it written in Chinese as 8 Claws.

Is the 8 Elbows you mention originally 8 Claws?
Or is this another 8 Elbows form?

[Tainan Mantis]

Draco,
Wah Lum also has beng bu. In English it is called Big Mantis.

[Mantis9]

They're the same form. I've heard this from Sifu Steve Cottrell and Sifu Brendan Tunks as well as my own sifu. Also, If you check Sifu Tony Chuy's forms list at:

[URL=http://www.northernmantis.com]

You'll see the chinese, romanization, and the english translation, which he refers to as 8 elbows. I've notice the difference myself and don't know if there is a "right" translation. But, I do know they're the same thing.

Mantis9

[HuangKaiVun]

Xue Tanglang, get yourself a VIDEO.

Your sifu should be able to recommend you a video that helps you remember your sets.

[Lisa]

If you could get a video of the form from your school, that would be good. Otherwise, I'm not sure I would want to learn from one. There can be a lot of difference between how your school teaches the form, and how another school does. For example, I've downloaded five different video clips of Bung Bo. Each of them has the same movements, but there is a definite difference in how each is performed. But if the video was recommended by your sifu, then I'm sure there wouldn't be any problem with it.

Lisa

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantis9,
Thanks for that info.
The 7* 8 Claws of HK seems to have no relation to the Meihua and Taiji PM version.
Do you know where it originated?

[Mantis9]

No. I don't, but I'll ask around and get back to you.

Mantis9

[Mantis9]

From a quick internet search, Ba Zhou is credited to Wong Long according to Sifu Carl Albright.

Carl Albright (http://www.geocities.com/sifu_carl/)

He's lineage is by way of LGY and Chiu Chi Man.

More later.

[Xue Tanglang]

I don't think my Sifu is big on the idea of videos. One of the advanced students was doing a form and apparently had an 'extra' move. Without even asking, Sifu told him he needed to stay away from those videos. I can ask him about taking some in-class videos.
Thanks Again!

[Young Mantis]

Tainan Mantis,

I don't claim to know a whole lot about the system, but from what I have been told, the Baht Zhao form of the Law Gwong Yook lineage is the same that is accredited to Wong Long. There are some people who have listed a form named 8 Talons or 8 Claws. To my knowledge, there is no such form in the LGY lineage curriculum. The word for claw or talon sounds the same as the pronunciation used for elbow as listed on our website and was most likely written incorrectly.

I have personally learned both the Seven Star and the Tai Chi Mantis versions of Baht Zhao. By chance, I was even taught the Taiji Meihua version of Baht Zhao and can tell you that the 7* and Taiji Meihua versions are quite similar. The Tai Chi version however is much different from the other two and I can find no relation to either.

YM

[draco]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Draco,
Wah Lum also has beng bu. In English it is called Big Mantis.

Tainan,
I have written all the names of my forms:rolleyes: I don't believe I have it. Is beng bu the same word as (peng pu)? because I also I also have been practising the 7 star form Peng Pu Chuan. I was not taught regular order of an established system. I will always appreciate your imput.

BeiTangLang,
we should all practise and take notes if needed. After a comfortable number of forms are learned there isn't much need for notes, physical memory becomes established and mental memory sort of fades and becomes balanced. Don Juan always told Carlos Castaneda to throw away his note book, he did not need it. ;) I agree take notes if you need to.

[madmanits]

another suggestion is that you may want to invest in a video camera nothing beats video in jogging the memory !! good luck with your training

[KickingMantis]

Big Mantis is strictly a Wah Lum Tam Tui Pai System form it is not the same as Bung Bo from Chut Sing Tang Lang Chuan.

I would encourage students to have access to videos of forms that they know or is within their schools cirriculum. It can only help and spplement their training.

Our it gives them a different perspective of how other schools perform sets and good for various applications.

However, One should not use videos as an exception to studying under a good qualified instructor. There is so much to discover from the most "simple" techniques in mantis that one can not get from learning a form and a few obvious applicatons from a video.

Taping, taking notes, drawing and routine performance of your sets, drills, exercises and etc., can only assist you in achieving a higher level of performance.

a good habit, is like others have said, learn the material, practice and have some one tape you while doing it immediately after learnig it to ensure accuracy.

[Tainan Mantis]

7* Beng Bu is also known as Yentai Beng Bu and even Da Beng Bu.

Wah Lum Beng Bu is a variation of Laiyang Beng Bu. Sometimes called Hsiao Beng Bu, Mei Hua Beng Bu or old Beng Bu.
The oldest known Beng Bu, Laiyang Beng Bu, is from Liang Hsuehsiang's manuscript. At this time it is the oldest manuscript including Beng Bu Luanjie and Ba Zhou.


Taiji PM of Zhao Zhuhsi also does Yentai Beng Bu, but it shares moves with the WL version and also the 7* version.

Some of the techniques that look completely unrelated are actually the same technique. This isn't apparant unless you learn the partner of both forms and make comparisons.

Laiyang and Wah Lum Beng Bu are both solo forms only.
Used as a base for drills using PM principles.

[KickingMantis]

Could be valuable information. nonetheless, Big Mantis is not Bung bo, as we know it. Even in each schools cirriculum they are placed differently.

As you stated, if it is a fact, Wah Lum is a variation of Laiyang Bung Bo, which is supposedly the oldest form of Bung Bo. (sometimes called Hsaio, Mei Hua or old Bung Bo)

All praying mantis schools share many similar techniques and names of sets, doesnt really make them the same. However, they could be similar or used to accomplish the same results in training and teaching.

Even the way the sets are played, the rhythm and execution of techniques are totally different in these two styles.

I am sure at one point, all praying mantis schools that have a bung bo or a set equal to it , may have originated from an old bung bo or something in comparison.