Stepping Question

[MonkeySlap Too]

Here's a question for the internal players on this board:

While exploring different 'internal' exercises a question arose about footwork. One teacher felt that you would NEVER step heel toe, as this creates a 'void' in your silk reeling that is easily taken advantage of. Another felt the heel toe stepping was required due to enviornemental factors and that there were ways around this flaw.

Now personally, I teach heel-toe stepping to beginners so that they get in the habit of establishing position in combat. But it gets quickly replaced by chicken stepping, dragon stepping and bear walking exercises - hence the sliding foot approaches.

But while I do see the point of teacher number 1 in terms of not having holes in your peng path, I tend to agree with number 2, as I have fought in the street, and I feel you need flexibility around the principles or else in your quest for 'perfect' technique you get messed up by the enviornment.

I'm not interested in anyones opinions of right or wrong, I am interested in your thoughts about which methodology or approaches have worked for you, and why.

Thanks all!

[miscjinx]

Tai chi drills in the heel-toe stepping routine into you, but to tell the truth I have never noticed a gap or void.

It seems contact starts at the heel and the weight rolls onto the foot (to the toe) rather fluidly now - I don't even think about it. Perhaps I am not paying enough attention.

As I think about it now, it seem to make the most sense as even walking normally operates in a heel-toe fashion - at least the way I walk normally.

I think I need more info on what was meant by a void?

[Waidan]

Our bagua system trains mud (snake) stepping exclusively at first to better train rooting and stability, and only includes rolling (lion) and chicken stepping after a couple years of training. As you stated, it's important to be able to vary your stepping to cope with circumstance and terrain. IMHO it's not difficult to maintain good connection while employing a heel-toe step, once a practitioner has all the other pieces in place.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Waiden, I tend to agree. I'm racking my brain to extract the exact thought that guy had, as the conversation was over a month ago.

I think the thought was that heel-toe stepping allowed too much of a telegraph - and the very action of the heel to toe action made it easier to uproot another. This guy learned his stuff from a Chen teacher, if there are any Chen guys on the board who might be able to clarify what I'm getting at.

Just figured it would be easier to discuss this rather than figure it out myself - too bad no one's jumping in...

[Walter Joyce]

I've been thinking about it. Reflecting on when I fought more often, the problem there is I was a soft externalist in those days.

What I did remember was that although inching forward with a slide type step had its advantages, I used to like to step on my opponent's foot, trapping him there for a hand strike. A heel toe step is much easier for this. And while we use a slide step(mud step or chicken step) in circle walking, heel toe stepping is not ruled out as an accepted form of practice.

I also have a problem with categorical approaches, like always this or never that. They rarely hold up.

I'm just starting to play with the idea of learning the chen forms and methods (I practice silk reeling regularly already), but anyway, thats what I have to offer for now, FWIW.

[count]

What's up? I think there is Never a NEVER when it comes to footwork or stepping methods. All methods mentioned have their advantages and possibly disadvantages. Some styles will say things like heel/toe is both the most basic and also the most advanced stepping method of that system. That the rolling of heel toe will stimulate specific accu-points on the foot. I find it gives me a little more torque when turning in. We mainly use a flat foot stepping in our bagua. Grabing each step with our toes and pulling forward. This has the advantage of speed and root, but can't be done while moving backward. Nobody has mentioned a "cold turkey" step. Kind of like a turkey standing in the snow on a cold day.:D I think many of the stepping methods make great training methods but what's important is what's natural.

[n0rmann]

I know in my chen school, we do both slide steps and heel to toe, different steps for different moves.

[RAF]

Please go back to the old issues of the Pakua Journal. There was either a whole issue or a very extensive article on all of the stepping methods found in bagua (there are a significant number),

As far as taiji goes (Yang, in particular) see the article on maoxing:

http://www.geocities.com/yongnian/maoxing.html

[MonkeySlap Too]

Yeah, I'm n ot saying never, I'm just trying to figure out someone's POV. Just to see if I'm missing something.

Walter - a nasty variation of stepping on the foot that we play is to use the sliding step, with the toes curled back, which allows you to break your opponents toes as you step on his foot. Ouch. You just reminded me about it. And yeah, I find heel toe steeping can be very useful for taking position for throwing, so I'm not tossing it out, just trying to figure out if I'm not getting something...

Thanks for answering.

[Waidan]

One advantage both our lion (rolling) and chicken stepping has over the mud step is the ability to clear underbrush. It might sound like a silly point, but my teacher and I on occasion have sparred and done formwork in areas with thick ground cover (Ivy, low bushes, tree roots) as a change of pace. In these excercises you quickly find that mudstepping is basically impossible, as you end up dragging stubborn vegitation around with you and stubbing your toes on all manner of obsticles.

As has been suggested, each of the steps has offensive applications also, if with a slight modification. I'm pretty new to the chicken step, but it seems to me it'd be perfect for kicks to the opponent's insteps, pinning the foot or possibly breaking the small bones on the top of the foot.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, our chicken step lifts with the heel first, and then shoots forward, landing with the ball of the foot first, and then setting the heel down. Does that fit your descriptions?

[Walter Joyce]

That is a fairly accurate description of the chicken step step. Just curious, where do you train (geographically) and what style of ba gua do you practice in the Cheng lineage?

[Waidan]

I'm way out west...sunny Southern California. I study Nine Palace Bagua under Sean Mutaqui. I trained at John Bracy's school here for a while, then began private lessons with Sean. Been at it going on 3 years now, so I'm still a noob ;)

I haven't met any other Cheng practitioners, so I'm not sure how we compare/contrast with other related systems. I got to meet and work out with Count's group (Yin Fu liniage, if I'm not mistaken) last year, and there were certainly a lot of differences in our respective approaches, but there was also a great deal of common ground and shared methodology. That's really the only bagua exposure I've had outside of our style.

[Walter Joyce]

I've read Bracy's book. My understanding of the differences originated between the Yin Fu lineage and the Cheng Ting Hua lineage because of the respective arts of Yin and Cheng when they came to study with Dong Hai Chuan. Yin had a background in lo han, and Cheng in shui chiao (sp.). I could be wrong. As a result, the Yin lineages emphasize more of the striking aspects and cheng the grappling and throwing aspects.

Having said that, I admit that is is a standard analysis, and probably doesn't hold up completely. The other difference that I'm aware of is the swimming body method of the gao style, what some people call "flowery" (why don't they just come out and say they think its ineffective) but with the right practitioner, say Luo De xiu, its anyhting but ineffective.

Anyways, thats my $.02, FWIW.

I'm on the opposite coast, as you can tell. Been doing internals about 4 years, gao about two (B.K. Frantzis Wu taiji and ba gua in the beginning.) Nice talking with you.

[Waidan]

Bracy's book is pretty okay. It struck me as odd that it contains nothing of our core forms, but the moving meditation stuff is good. If I recall, he doesn't really show anything special in the applications section either. He said himself he was criticized for using such simple examples. Frankly, I was just happy to see *any* bagua combat applications on paper.

Yeah, we're saturated with trapping and throwing techniques. It suits me well, as I came from a style with heaps of throws (san soo). The Yin Fu material I've seen (I practiced a portion of their 64 Palm form) contained a healthy serving of snappy strikes (how's that for alliteration?). Count has sharp, cruel elbows and knuckles, so it works for him :)

I can count the number of times I've been out of state on one hand, but if I make it out to the bagua tourney in NY next year, hopefully we'll get a chance to meet up and exchange notes.

[count]

Count has sharp, cruel elbows and knuckles, so it works for him
LMAO on that Waidan, good discussion guys. Just back for a few points. I love the concept of stepping on guys feet too. However, rolling from heel to toe seems to over commit myself in that kind of situation. Learned that the hard way :eek:. Sometimes "probing toes" first works better for sensitivity and controlling your opponents feet.
Also on a side note, I would think there were as many devasting throwing techniques in Yin style as in Cheng style. I think it really comes down to who's your teacher more than lineage. But I love the tapes Luo De Xiu has on throwing. Tim Cartmell hosts Luo every year. Maybe we should meet up for one of his workshops Waidan? It's somewhat in between us. My training partner has been traying to get me to join him for that one the last 2 years and I'm always sorry I miss out. I'm quite sure that method is anything but ineffective.
On another side note: (For RAF and everyone interested) I just ordered my CD-ROM of the Pakua Journal and the guy at Plumflower promised to ship it by next week. I'm stoked. He said the pictures were great on the CD. :cool:

[Waidan]

Yeah, I'd be down for a seminar up there any time. I've never met Cartmell, but a friend of mine studied with him for a time and loved every minute of it. He sounds like a practical guy, so I'd bet any seminar he hosts will have lots of good info. I could just about ride a bike to his studio too, so that helps.

And of course I'd love to get my lazy self up to your class soon as well. :)

[hairywhiteguy]

do any of you guys, with in ba gua, when stepping "through" the opponent roll the opponents back ankle with the heel to toe stepping? I'm just curious.

ba gua is suposed to develop over time with time, right? What axulliary stuff have you or your teachers added or changed....

thanx

[Walter Joyce]

I was waiting for ypu to join the discussion count, hoping you'd offer a nugget or two of wisdom. I agree, Yin styles have throws, and the teacher you have will be the biggest outside influence on how your fighting style develops. Thanks for joining the discussion.
:)

[Sam Wiley]

I practice a style of Taiji with very Bagua-like stepping methods, including the kou and bai bu methods, in addition to Yang style Taiji and Chiang Jung-chiao's Bagua. In real fights I tend to use more "Bagua" footwork and change stepping than anything, though I have never been able to determine whether I step heel and toe or entire sole at once. I do know that there are several movements in my Taiji form where I prefer to step with the entire heel rather than the more conventional heel toe stepping. I wouldn't limit myself to one or the other, though. I think they both have their place. What's right for the situation is right for the situation, whether or not it's correct within a specific style.