Death Duels

[fa_jing]

Why do we hear so many stories of martial artists killing each other in China? For nothing more than rivalry or a challenge match? It seems a very extreme way to test a style, especially since real-life unscripted opportunities did occur. I mean, it seems to be a huge deterrent to studying MA, if you're expected to participate in death matches and the like.

[HuangKaiVun]

What stories are these?

Most kung fu men of old, when fighting challenges, were very respectful of one another. Killing each other was hardly the answer for most of the confrontations of this sort.

In China, this tradition has persisted to the present day.

[fa_jing]

I keep hearing these stories here and there. Maybe they were accidental killings. For instance, a praying mantis instructor I know, who grew up in China, claims that you always keep 2 techniques to yourself. This way the student does not kill the master.

Truthfully, I imagine that in those cases where one was killed, there was probably either money involved or somebody was sleeping with someone else's woman or something.

[GLW]

Injuries DID occur and some injuries could be severe enough to cause death.

In that light, a challenge match can start out on a low key - respectful - but when one or the other of the fighters senses a loss of face, they might just escalate things.

This is not so strange. You see it all of the time in modern tournaments. There are contact rules. One competitor is losing or gets tapped a little too hard...and all of a sudden you need the EMT's because the guy went over the line.

Same thing could happen then. One guy does something and the other one reacts and goes beyond....then if the first guy is still OK, he escalates to defend himself...and then you end up with a severe injury or death.

I know of one of the original teachers of the Nanjing Central Guoshu school that had a challenge for his teaching position - the challenger was a friend but was poor. The many had been paid to challenge his friend for the job. The challenger was given opportunities to stop and did not take them - he had already taken the payment and couldn't...so when the Nanjing instructor fought back, he put the challenger in the hospital. It could have just as easily been the graveyard.

People are people.

[Chang Style Novice]

I seem to remember hearing or reading that after Ch'ang Tung Sheng started to become very famous, he received challenger after challenger after challenger. At first he would beat them nice and easy, let 'em know who's boss and let 'em go. But after the novelty wore off and Ch'ang became more inundated with young bucks trying to make a name for themselves, he started to really hurt them - broken arms, legs, necks, the occassional death - not so much to make a point, but to keep people from seeking challenges lightly. You had to be really sure of your skills, and really courageous to challenge him, because you knew you were risking your health, your welfare, and maybe your life.

I don't know if this is true or legend, and it certainly doesn't answer your question, but it seemed relevant.

[Leonidas]

:( :mad: Thats really evil sh!t man, killing young kids trying to make a name for themselves. If it is true. I've heard dozens of stories about challenge matches ending in death though. Some so called kung fu 'masters' had real mean streaks.

[MA fanatic]

I heard similar stories when I was a teenager. All are urban martial arts legends. Challenge matches happened throughout history of any martial arts (be they from ancient Greece, to ancient China, to ancient Okinawa). Some urban legends started through movies. People like those stories of masters "fighting to the death." Other stories began by teachers trying to prove to students that the techniques they teach are too dangerous to be used in any competition or No Rules match. "We teach to kill...even master ____ killed another master using that technique." Take those stories as mindless entertainment. Some are actually fun to hear. If someone tells you that any master killed anyone in present time, you could also challenge that view. I had a local martial arts instructor tell me that his teacher was challenged by a rival martial arts school owner in China Town of New York. He told me that his teacher killed the other master in a challenge match, so the style he teaches is very deadly. But, when you probe: When did this happen? What year? Was the police involved? Was your teacher charged with man slaughter? How many years in prison did he get? How come he was allowed to continue teaching after murdering someone? How long did the court procedings last? Who was the judge? etc. etc...These guys don't like to be questioned for specifics because at the end, the story is a poorly planned out fairy tale.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

As a side note, once when I started boxing, I heard a legend that one of the coaches in the gym I attended (it was tough looking Russian guy), killed someone in the ring. Everyone was saying that his guy was deadly in the ring known for many KOs and "busting some guy's liver with one punch." Anyway, I went right up to the guy and asked him if he ever killed anyone in the ring. The guy started laughing so hard. He told me that he never killed anyone, and his KO record isn't all that impressive. He said that being new to the country and enrolling in a gym, he once broke the nose of a fighter in some match. He never killed anyone but found the story to be entertaining.
MA fanatic

[lkfmdc]

A would-be instructor seeking to legitimize himself and gain general acceptance, simultaneously desired to maintain the respect of his peers. The quickest and by far the most popular method of doing this was to issue an open challenge and defeat several local fighters before opening one's school. Until it was declared illegal by the Nationalist government in 1928, it was relatively common in southern China to see an instructor fight all challengers in public duels. These duels often resulted in serious injury or even death but they were viewed necessary to demonstrate that an instructor was worthy of opening a school.

Another popular method of making a name for oneself was to challenge an already established instructor in hopes of defeating him and taking over his school. It was an extremely risky decision and some of the largest and most popular schools were the ones where such challengers were frequently beaten senseless and left on the front stairs for everyone to see. Indeed, an instructor who routinely beat such challengers was sought out by all segments of society, the brotherhoods and secret societies, the military, local commoners and rich elite who viewed martial arts as an esoteric hobby (not unlike today's "new age" crowd).

Thus, even a well established instructor still had to prove himself and the effectiveness of his method on a regular basis. As Donn F. Draeger and Robert W. Smith noted, "challenges were a central part of a master's existence and could not be refused"

Smith also has noted that as late as the 1950's there were dules with SWORDS in the streets of Taiwan

[TkdWarrior]

i really liked MAfanatic's view...as it happened with my teachers' teacher he KO's someone with just one hit and got seriously involved with law, had house arrest for six months and paid very heavly...
man the law hav been changed...it's not ancient china...
-TkdWarrior-

[KC Elbows]

If you're teacher's death duel record is 5-1-2, be suspicious. Unless he's Jesus. In that case, I wouldn't learn sword from him. That'd be suicide.

[KC Elbows]

Although I hear he's got a mean cross.

[shaolinboxer]

"Thus, even a well established instructor still had to prove himself and the effectiveness of his method on a regular basis. As Donn F. Draeger and Robert W. Smith noted, "challenges were a central part of a master's existence and could not be refused"

Smith also has noted that as late as the 1950's there were dules with SWORDS in the streets of Taiwan"

Indeed. I suggest reading Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods by Robert W. Smith....a fun and informative read(please ignore the goofy cover sketch of someone looking like bruce lee...an obvious addition by his publisher).

Also, kungfu schools are/were (sometimes) gangs. Gang members kill each other (sometimes).

[KC Elbows]

I am always recommending that book to people. I think it's good to see what the old greats were like, down to the drinking and such. It keeps people from deifying their teachers.

For the most part, I don't think "death matches" were all that common, but challenges that just went wrong probably were.

[lkfmdc]

traditional sifu = pork eating, cigarette smoking, wine drinking, foul mouth talking, and those are the nice ones :)

too much PC and new age crap in TCMA these days, truth is out there though if you look

[David Jamieson]

lkfmdc - :D, you are right on some counts, but there are a few gentle traditional sifu out there still. And again, there are planty of pc new age spout artists out there too. The world is made up of many diffirent things, it makes life interesting and worth living.

as for death duels, the point has been made that all cultures had/have them. This is not something especially chinese and in fact there were and are many highly skilled martial arts pracitioner who never had a dim sum in their lives and are not chinese.

the lei tai matches of the late 1800's early 1900's are mostly stuff of legend and as time passes, legend becomes more and more distorted. That's just the way things are.

Shaolin is the reputed birth place of the greatest martial arts ever to come out of China, and indeed many interesting practices were and are practiced there. However it was destroyed several times with malicious and brute force by external interests. What does this say of the prowess and martial skill of the Shaolin?

The whole way of thought often associated with "wu de" or "mo duk" or simply "martial virtue" was put down and out by the maoists in China long ago, sending "masters" into hiding.

The lowest of the low jobs you could have in imperial times was martial arts instructor.

One of the cheesiest jobs you can have today is bouncer or body guard.

But still, it is quite clear that in order to savour sweetness, you must taste bitter. That is the true value of martial training for many who have spent much time as practitioners.

It is not "deep" thought that is required to kill, it is actually very shallow. It does not require pacifist thinking to strike harder.

Most who wrap too much peace and love into their martial arts usually do not have the greatest skill in them.

I can admit that I am at best mediocre as a martial artist, but I am better than many, worse than a few and equal to some.

Death matches are idle ponderings, if it's death you want, join the army and get into a war. PLenty of death to go around all over the world.

once again...

peace

[Leonidas]

Nice Post Kung lek :D

[lkfmdc]

Kung Lek,
We've had similar arguments before so there isn't much point in trying to enlighten you to the facts if you don't want to hear them

No one said challenges were "special" to Chinese culture, but someone here tried to make it sound like they didn't happen. Clearly they DID. They happened A LOT.

I am not sure what you are reading, but nothing in any of this thread had anything to do with non-Chinese not having skills. Please don't insert things which are not being discussed.

The lei tai matches are not "legend", they happened. They are in news paper accounts, in Bao Jia records (if you don't know what those are, you might reconsider some of your arguments), etc

Martial artists in China were indeed soldiers, body guards and enforcers, precisely becuase those jobs were related to their skills. And in those professions you often KILL people, so indeed it happened

why the PC crowd wants to deny this is beyond reason

[MA fanatic]

If we're talking about duels which occured hundreds of years ago, then of course they happened. Even in European and Slavic countries duels were very honorable and practiced. Even such great poets as Pushkin was killed after sustaining an injury in a duel. There is little record as to who fought whom and what technique was used. But, they did happen. As for sword fighting in the streets of Taiwan...guys, in a couple of hundreds years historians will be looking back at our society saying, "the old west didn't die out, there are records of drive by shootings and gun fighting as late as the year 2002 in the streets of every major city." As for secret death matches and challenge matches resulting in death NOW, I would doubt all stories. Actually, I hear more stories of " teachers teacher killing someone" in present times than stories of ancient battles. Here's an example of what really happens. In his early years Mas Oyama was a great Karate champion in Japan. He was also a 4th dan in those days. Once while sitting in a cafe he got into an argument with who turned out to be a yakuza member. The guy pulled a knife and rushed Oyama. Oyama punched him in the face, "it was like striking a watermellon" and killed him with one punch. Even though the other guy was a known criminal and even used a weapon, the Japanese police arrested Oyama. Oyama spent some years in prison for accessive force because he was a karateka and didn't warn his attacker. That's what happens.
MA fanatic

[David Jamieson]

lk- you and i communicate in a very strange way....:D

i agree with you.

peace

[rogue]

Martial artists in China were indeed soldiers, body guards and enforcers, precisely becuase those jobs were related to their skills. And in those professions you often KILL people, so indeed it happened And that's the difference between a hobbiest, a sport fighter and someone that uses their martial arts as part of their job.

I've trained under one master who is a fantastic fighter and artists. I've also trained under two guys who used their martial arts in the course of their profession. While many of the techniques were similar the execution of them was very different. The fighter will feel you out, "cook" you, while the other two will just go in for the kill. Same with way with their knife work compared to the philipino stuff. I can see some pretty hot fighters challenging someone back then who didn't fight but went right for the kill. Critical mistake.