Hsing I, san ti, and legs

[Muppet]

Okay, I'm getting at least an inkling of how the body is supposed to work in Hsing I.

But...

Are the legs supposed to be solid and muscular?

Or are the legs supposed to be springy?

[Nexus]

One style is "in laymen terms": Right hip connects to left shoulder, right knee connects to left elbow, right foot connects to left fist (and same goes for other side, left hip->right shoulder, etc).

This is the foundation for power generation, and is taught in hsing-i qi gong forms. A few you can learn from are at www.qigongmaster.com

[LapisCircle]

The legs should be as relaxed as you can make them each time you practice Xingyi San Ti. Practice is about doing the best you can where you are at presently, if solid is what your legs are but you hold the strong intant to be more natural and relaxed each time then you are doing good pratice. I don't know Nexus was trying to help you out on that but go way to worm into a side topic I guess....

[Muppet]

So the legs are also at around "sung" tension?

[LapisCircle]

Sure.... but sung is relaxed, so as relaxed or sung as possible each time.

[Walter Joyce]

Relaxed is a loose translation of sung, that has lead to a fair amount of confusion, i.e. "loose" relaxed, "dead" relaxed, "limp" releaxed, or "alive" relaxed, personally I like "springy", FWIW.

Just a reminder that translating from one language to another, especially chinese to english, should be done carefully.

[Muppet]

Walter, any plans for another Mike Sigman seminar?

It's a shame that the September seminar was cancelled, as I was looking forward to it.

[Walter Joyce]

Muppet,
So was I. the best I can offer is that negotiations continue, the sticking opoint is the start time of the workshop.

Chen Zhu Lei is in town this weekend, one of the four tigers of Chen village. Wang Hei jun, his student, should be back in February, and I'm also trying to get Tim Cartmell out sometime. If anything is going on, I'll post here, rest assured.

[iron thread]

I've learned to claw/grab onto the floor/ground with my toes in San Ti. When my sifu describes "sung" in English, I've known him to use two terms "relaxed, but not dead" and "alert".

[CD Lee]

I have given this a lot of thought myself, and I do a lot of San Ti. I think it comes to this: You need as much tension in your legs as you need to hold the posture. I make sure to keep relaxing different parts of my thighs that do not really need tension to hold the posture. I have found, at first, that I have more tension in my legs than is actually neccessary, so I am always working on that aspect, but even relaxed it is a very powerful stance. As your legs get stronger in that stance over time, they need less tension and feel more relaxed just as in resistance training.

To me it is like a guy that starts out doing push ups but on the first day, he can only do 2. Over a year, he builds up to where he can do 100 push ups. After one year, when he compares himself to his first day, he finds that there is much less tension and effort associated with his first 2 push ups than on that first day, where he used all the effort and strength in his pecs, shoulders, and triceps to get out those two reps.

[HuangKaiVun]

Go spar - or hit a wall - using the San Ti posture.

You'll find out what the legs are "supposed" to do.

[CD Lee]

HKV - A little cryptic there buddy. When standing in San Ti, your legs are supposed to do what they are doing. When hitting a wall or sparring, they should at the very minimum be moving. What exactly are you trying to say?

[Muppet]

I'm learning a Shanxi style of Hsing I and the teacher keeps stressing "slow and soft, like tai chi", so I'll pass on the sparring bit.

To me, going slow makes a lot of sense since I'll pick up a lot of bad habits by sparring before I have the internal body mechanics down pat (or at all).

And yes, I would ask my instructor this question except I've barraged him with a lot of questions already and unfortunately, I don't speak Mandarin so I can't communicate with him directly.

[CD Lee]

Hey Muppet, just a note I have about your question on the hard and muscular legs issue. I used to run, which is leg intensive. I noticed many runnerns who had very strong legs but did not have muscular looking legs, while others did. Same thing with guys who lift wieghts.

My legs are hard and slighly muscular. However, I cannot tell if it is from tennis every week (3-4 hrs), or from standing practice. They seem to have become harder after a year of standing and postures. We are told to stay very relaxed in our style too. The fact is, you must have good leg strength to do internals well. Undue tension is the enemy, not muscle.

As far as your own legs, and what you expect them to do over time; I don't think they will do the same exact things as everybody elses in regards to size or hardness. Part of that is genetic. Your legs will develop strength that is useful for what you are doing with them, that much is certain.

Or as HKV suggested, you could just go out and kick a brick wall to see what your leg is 'really' supposed to be doing?! :rolleyes: On second thought, maybe you should pass on that bit of advice.

[Walter Joyce]

"The fact is, you must have good leg strength to do internals well. Undue tension is the enemy, not muscle. " CDLee

Excellent point.

[GeneChing]

...or at least so I'm told by many different masters. They all say the key to xingyi is in how the feet grab the ground, like what iron thread was saying. I've been experimenting with this a lot. I can't say I've got it at all yet, but I've gotten little flashes of insight where this seems to work.

[HuangKaiVun]

In traditional internal training, CD Lee, one is supposed to test his posture against all sorts of objects.

Trees, walls, opponents - all of those help a person determine the proper posture one should hold to get maximum efficacy. Holding a posture that hasn't been TESTED is considered a waste of time.

Now if one is doing Hsing Yi for strictly meditative purposes, testing one's jing against hard objects or opponents is absolutely unnecessary. But if you're training Hsing Yi for combat, then you have to be able to issue a hit against a totally uncooperative opponent - and take one as well.

Whatever weaknesses a guy has will be uncovered via this active resistance training. The San Ti stance done against resistance shows the practitioner his own weaknesses in the most unflattering light.

And that's the best way to learn how to do it RIGHT.

[GeneChing]

Tests are important, that's true, but somewhat subjective. The test is relative to the practitioner, not like the SAT. Are you going to hold up the same type of test for a 200+ lb 18 yr old male to a 100 lb 70 yr old male? Who do you think might have better Xingyi?

This is just a hypothetical question, but one that always bothers me, especially with internal styles.

[CD Lee]

Walter - Thanks!

HKV - Now that you have clarified your original statement, I see that you mean the application in fighting or motion using a San Ti posture to fight in. Now that is an interesting thought to me. Are you saying to stand in San Ti, and deliver a punch without stepping or moving the body?

"From stillness comes motion" - can't remember who said it.

I agree that taking your lead hand, and having someone push agaisnt it reveals your postures weaknesses, and bad alignments, but I have not seen people really use fists from that static position, or spar in San Ti?

The original question; should the legs be strong and muscular or springy? I say both, maybe not muscular per se, but then San Ti was brought in as the fulcrum of the question as to what should be happening in San Ti involving musclular tension.

San Ti is a standing posture. A meditative posture that also has martial structure and intent. His main concern is the attributes of the legs, manifested externally and internally. He is just starting to understand as he states. Do you really think he can go out and hit a wall or spar and suddenly understand the intricate details of the aspects of San Ti?

[CD Lee]

Gene Ching:


Are you going to hold up the same type of test for a 200+ lb 18 yr old male to a 100 lb 70 yr old male? Who do you think might have better Xingyi?


Fair question. I think in regards to posture and stances, yes. We will use San Ti I guess as an example. If standing in San Ti correctly, both men regardless of weight, height or age, should be backweighted, with an upright ridgepole, lifting the head, sinking the hips, back straight, relaxed and taught with intent.

At this point, if you pressed in thier lead hand, if everthing is properly aligned, both will transfer the energy into their back leg, rooting into the ground. ( I know theres more..but just for discussion sake)

Now...all else being equal, if they are both doing this correctly, if the big guy can take more pure force, I think this is just physics. The effect of the force will be different, but the handling of the force by the participants should be identical. I think this phenomenon is the subjective part of the test. The subjectivity that you mention is most likely due to the 'interpretation' of what is seen, rather then what is acutually happening.

[Muppet]

In case I seem ungrateful, thanks for all the replies.

Many moons ago, my instructor was trying to get a point across (via a non-student translator and ying yang symbol :confused: ) that as you get better in san ti, your hind leg will actually get softer and softer. That is, the hardness aspect of the leg shrinks.

I also think he said that you have to actively experiment and look for this softness.

What I wasn't sure was whether the softness was simply the entire leg getting stronger and more durable (there has to be a good adjective form of endurance); or if there was a literal softness/springiness that I'm opting for.

Now if I understand correctly, by paring away the use of unneeded muscles and only keeping the right amount of tension in the legs, I should eventually achieve the desired goal.

That brings up another question :) : Generally, which leg muscles should be relaxed?

The outer-sides of my thighs are very taut, and generally, the closer to the inner thigh I go, the softer the muscle feels. Does this sound about right?

Thanks again.

[HuangKaiVun]

Your hypothetical question, GeneChing, is interesting in that the answer depends on the individual practitioner.

As far as the WALL is concerned, it offers the same resistance whether one is 100 or 200 pounds. The point is that by testing one's jings against it, one will discern the weaknesses in his own stance.

"Better than somebody" has nothing to do with it. The concern is finding one's own weaknesses and strengths via applying his techniques on the outside world.

Besides, it's not as if a 100 lb guy can't defeat a 200 lb guy (and vice versa) with the right technique. That's something a guy finds out via active resistance training.


CDLee, I DO believe that a person can figure out what one should be doing in San Ti on his own. That's why I posted my original reply in the first place.

The trick is to UTILIZE the posture by holding it in practice the way he holds it in a fight. If there are misconceptions about the style, combat or resistance training will expose them. No amount of contactless pontification (not that YOU were doing that) will achieve that.

One should practice as he fights - and vice versa.


That's why I would once again say to Muppet: USE the San Ti posture in a fight.

Then tell US what muscles should be held what way.

[CD Lee]

HKV - I see your point in principle, and I agree to some extent in principle. You may not know what I am talking about in a way. I know you have done Tai Chi, but have you ever practiced Xingyi? Just curious.

The real question I am curious about is what I bolded earlier. Just to clarify: Are you saying to strike or throw a fist from a static San Ti stance without stepping or moving forward with the body?

I think the answer has a large bearing on this discussion. And I want to clarify because you are offering instructional advice in Xingyi.

[CD Lee]

Muppet - Try this experiment. And it may take some time, but try it. Take your san ti posture or really any posture including driving your car. Tense up your muscles, and then start slowly relaxing them, being aware of what is loosing tension. Learn to feel the releasing everywhere.

When I stand in San Ti, the back leg is definately tighter because the stance is back weighted. However, I can usually release more tension than I need to stay in the posture. This just takes practice, but is very cool, and very applicable to your everyday life. Start to notice how much extra tension you have during everyday activities that you do not need. It is really amazing.

Which brings me back to my original reply I think. You need as much tension as you need to stay standing correctly. I think that is easy to understand and easy to learn to apply in practice. Your body knows which muscles are needed naturally. Your job is to learn to soften by feeling throughout your whole body, and you eventually will only hold enough tension as neccessary. Sung.

BTW, please don't think I mean to go limp! I do not mean limp at all. I mean full of water, skin tingling, full of energy, full of intention, expansion in all directions, and contraction. Just don't go limp.

[GeneChing]

The size issue is always a challenge, especially in the internal styles. Definately a smaller person can defeat a larger person, but not without possessing superior skills (or a lot of luck!) Can a larger unskilled person defeat a smaller more skilled person? If you say no, I suspect you've never really sparred. Size matters. And a lot of the big internal fighters were and are big men.

Keep in mind, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, just for the sake of discussion. There's nothing I love more than seeing some llittle old internal master mop the floor with a bunch of hulking students. But all things being fair, in all the street fights I've witness (and been involved in :eek: ) size played a more important role than proper stance.

[CD Lee]

Ahhh, Gene, I understand your point. As far as the street fights you have seen, how many of those guys were skilled at fighting?

Now, size matters, no doubt about it. But I venture to say that size matters even more in an external style. After all as I said, all else being equal, size definately matters.

I can only imagine Gene, that you may be implying, or maybe not, that a smaller guy stands a better chance using external styles versus using internal styles against a larger person. Lets assume you have said this for argument sake or at least devil's advocate sake right?

It has been my experience thus far, having learned external techniques earlier in my life, and being a fairly small person, 5'9, 200 lbs, well, small for a fighter, that the internals have given me a better or easier/higher percentage chance against much larger persons. The blocks and redirections of energy are much easier to pull off than wilt external styles against large persons in my particular case.

Now it also seems to me, that if I a smaller person, try to use force on force against a 250 lb. man that knows how to fight, then my chances are pretty slim unless I get in the first blow to the face or neck or stomach. Otherwise, how will I beat the big guy trying force on force? If the guy does not know how to fight very well, I don't think it matters much frankly from my experience.

In the internals, I immediately see a way to stave off, even use that persons momentum, balance and power to help me unbalance them and control them for a quick moment to launch my attack. I only need to stun them once to gain the upper hand. If they can handle my first two or three best shots, then I may not win anyways, regardless.

Anyways, blocking punches with a Karate block hurts like hell if the person can strike with good power and speed.

[neptunesfall]

the relaxed springiness is to be compared to being on the edge of moving. you should be ready to move in any direction while in the stance, while keeping it solid. the idea of keeping the muscles relaxed isn't relaxed as in dead weight, but keeping them from consciously being flexed, like when you make a muscle. when you keep the legs in this way (ready to move), i see it as potential energy, ready to be expelled. when the legs are flexed-tensed, they must go to the potential state before you can move, slowing you down and robbing you of energy. when the legs are dead weight relaxed, they must also go to the potential state, again slowing you down and robbing energy from the movement.

[GeneChing]

Actually I wasn't implying that a smaller guy stands a better chance using external systems, but your answer was interesting nonetheless. I've always resisted the notion of combat being the only measure of martial arts. I guess I read too much Sun Tzu, and consider myself a poor martial artist for getting in as many fights as I do :p To me, a lot of the subjective testing in internal styles doesn't really measure skill accurately, or maybe I should say it only measures a narrow aspect of internal skills. Longevity, vitality, character, charity - these I find to be a much better measure of skill in internal arts. But maybe that's just me...

And as for the street fights I've seen, I've actually seen a lot of skill in such fights, but I was always more interested in who won. If you are 'skilled' but don't win a real fight, well, then you got to ask yourself what your actual skill is...

[HuangKaiVun]

Sorry I screwed up my reading of your question, CDLee.

As far as your bolded statement goes, my mentality is "not usually".

When I hold that San Ti posture, the idea is that I can spring into motion at any point. Readiness is what I practice, and I don't hold dead stances.

Now when somebody grabs me or I have limited space, sometimes I can only throw a punch without moving my legs.

[CD Lee]

Gene Ching - I really could not agree with you more on this. I had a thought reading your response. If I am the small guy losing, It is still better to have the highest skills possible in a fight, especially with a larger person that can beat you with pure size and strength. I would hope that I got hurt a lot less, or bought some time. I mean, anybody can lose if they fight enough, no matter how skilled. Of course, there are no absolutes right?

As far as skills in the internals, yes there is a lot there that is subjective, and has lot more to do with things other than fighting. I am very satisfied with some things I have learned this year, whether I ever fight another person or not, I will use these things.

HKV - I like your description of stances that are alive. That is real Xingyi, not dead pajama stances. Ready to explode into action. I think San Ti is one of the most applicable stances in all of martial arts. Once the legs are moving, the arm position can be used even without putting a fist with it to do a lot of things.

[GeneChing]

You know, I spent my high school/college daze as a fencer, so San Ti always reverts to my fencing stance on my right side. To me, it's very linear, but so is fencing. Sifu Tony Chen was showing me some interesting close quarter attacks using San Ti where you strike the opponent's inner knee with your knee. I couldn't get in that close and keep my body unified, but he certainly could. It was a very tricky attack since your hand work completely obscured your footwork, or kneework as the case may be. It was also what I would call a 'small man's' attack, since it seemed to work better for a small quick person.

CDL - If I am the small guy losing, or the big guy losing, I'm still losing. It's always beter to have the highest skills possible.:p

[count]

Originally posted by GeneChing
You know, I spent my high school/college daze as a fencer, so San Ti always reverts to my fencing stance on my right side. To me, it's very linear, but so is fencing. Sifu Tony Chen was showing me some interesting close quarter attacks using San Ti where you strike the opponent's inner knee with your knee. I couldn't get in that close and keep my body unified, but he certainly could. It was a very tricky attack since your hand work completely obscured your footwork, or kneework as the case may be. It was also what I would call a 'small man's' attack, since it seemed to work better for a small quick person.

CDL - If I am the small guy losing, or the big guy losing, I'm still losing. It's always beter to have the highest skills possible.:p
Now your getting to the heart of it, (although there were some great points before), but your giving away all the "small guy" secrets Gene. ;) Sometime I have to discuss the similarity between fencing footwork and mantis footwork, which is anything but straight. But I don't think that linear is a good term to describe either methods. I think you hit on the value of Hsing-I legs. I have been taught that in Hsing-I you often hit with a certain part of the leg prior to striking. That is why I recognize the value of San Ti training in Hsing-I. Not the knee as you mentioned, but the hip joint, which seems to take the weight load when I practice that step. But than, I know very little about Hsing-I :D

[GeneChing]

Count - I dabbled very lightly in mantis when I was in Jinan. Learned Beng bu, but that was it, and I promply forgot it. But I didn't find as much of a parallel to fencing as I find in Xingyi. It's kinda funny, because I can do most of the xingyi footwork well on my right side, but my left is assymetric after fencing. But as for the hip, I'd seen that before in many styles - taiji, shaolin. The knee in xingyi was different somehow, perhaps because santi has such a smaller base than gongbu or mabu.

[count]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Count - I dabbled very lightly in mantis when I was in Jinan. Learned Beng bu, but that was it, and I promply forgot it. But I didn't find as much of a parallel to fencing as I find in Xingyi. It's kinda funny, because I can do most of the xingyi footwork well on my right side, but my left is assymetric after fencing. But as for the hip, I'd seen that before in many styles - taiji, shaolin. The knee in xingyi was different somehow, perhaps because santi has such a smaller base than gongbu or mabu.
Did you learn the fight side to Beng Bu too? When I trained in mantis we learned some forms like Beng Bu, but it was mostly Go, Lo, Tsai, Gua and footwork, footwork and more footwork. Oh ya, and there was kicking too. (off the footwork) :D We would fight mostly from a 70-30 stance too. Only it was much lighter and springier than Hsing-I. More hoppy like fencing. Anyway, I digress. I think you'll see many styles use a bump to uproot you before a hit. It just seems different to me in Hsing-I than say Tai Chi or Baji. It's the part of the hip or leg or something that you are getting hit with that feels different. I think that's the best part of San Ti training. The conditioning and power you get from the legs that specifically applies to Hsing-I techniques. But as I said, I know very little about Hsing-I. Good thread though guys, carry on.

[CD Lee]

Good post Gene and Count. I would like to bring up another thing about Hsing-I that Count brings to mind. Obviously, it is a very deep art. It seems simple to outsiders. Really, San Ti does a lot more than just leg strength. That is another story.

There is an aspect to good Hsing-I that you brought to my mind. When done properly, after developing the ability to move as a complete unit, with flowing footwork in this art (which really takes longer than most think), your body is a mass of water and tissue, in which almost anything can be used to strike or take someone off balance with BEFORE that big strike. If one cannot learn to develop this skill, then Hsing-I is no more usefull than any other method, maybe even less, IMO.

Now, the goal of course is to penetrate or take off balance from the first touch. This is one of the difficult parts to learn. However, if I can uproot you, then slam my mass into where you were standing previously, without segmenting my contact into your body, you will fly. You will literally fly. And no strike is neccessary at that stage, although you may certainly want to strike hard. I think part of the beauty is that the things that make the strikes work most effectively, also make the option of not having to use fists just as effective. This also applies to the other good internals as well, but a Hsing-I strike can look almost magic when combined with these other skills. Remember, I can actually push a building over with one hand, as long as it starts falling just as I push! :D Really.

Count - where could I see good mantis? Are there any video of places on the web that show demos of decent form?

[GeneChing]

In all honesty, I didn't really learn the fighting aspects of mantis. Like I said I just dabbled. It was pretty cool though. Actually, I think it fits my body type well. Maybe I'll learn it in my nest incarnation.

As for xingyi santi, it's a lot like the en garde of fencing, but in fencing, it all primes you for the lunge. In xingyi, you don't really lunge in the same way. That is to say, you do lunge, but you end up back in santi. In fencing, it's more like ending up in gongbu. That's been my biggest challenge with the footwork when I use it applicatively in the sparring drill. After a few rounds I find myself back in gongbu, defaulting to old programming.

[count]

Gene,
Sounds like you just need to clear your cache and reload.:D If you are interested in learning more about Hsing-I, my Sifu, Jason Tsou is holding a seminar at the end of next month. I think it will be at Cal State LA. I'm sure I could get you in. It will be my first serious foray into Hsing-I and I'm stoked.

More good points CD, for that I'll reward you with the video links you asked for.:D Go to Dr. Su Yu Chang's website, (http://www2.micro-net.com/~ycsu/mastersu.html)and there are some clips to download and video's to order. As far as it goes though, they don't do the mans mantis justice. You have to feel it.:eek:

[GeneChing]

Eh, you can't teach on old dog new tricks.:rolleyes: Actually the animals in Xingyi are bending my head inside out. Very interesting stuff. And I'm making a lot of discoveries in Shaolin and Sun Taiji through the study of Xingyi. Probably would make some in fencing too, if I still fenced. It all adds up. :D

[CD Lee]

Thanks Count. Interesting web site.

[HuangKaiVun]

Gene, you trained Shaolin spear.

Given that Hsing Yi is based on a spear mentality, realize that a lot of the empty hand techniques are easily understood using a spear.

With the spear, a person can use either the point or the staff portion. The same goes for Hsing Yi weaponless combat.

The Animals are exaggerations of the original 5 elements for combat extremes, but the true foundation are the original 5.

He who can apply the original 5 in varying situations almost need not learn the remaining 12.

[GeneChing]

My Sifu Tony Chen just had me working some spear drills for my Xingyi last week. It was the basic, but then everyone does the basic differently. I learned a bak sil lum and a lok hop spear from my Sifu Wing Lam (they use the same basic since he gourps them within the same curriculum) then I learned 13 point spear from my Shaolin Monk master Shi Decheng - his basic was different (actually there is some funny footage of me that allegedly appeared on HK TV - I had missed a lesson because I had an appointment with the abbot and this film crew shows up for the next meeting. Fortunately, they were most interested in the foreign (non-chinese looking) studens, so I was stuck in the back. Nothing like trying to learn a move on HKTV.) Sifu Tony Chen's basic was more akin to the Songshan Shaolin basic, but he was focusing more on the power delivery. More stuff to integrate.

Maybe you can't teach an old dog new tricks, but thenmaybe you can teach him variations on the old ones. :)