Are Martial arts for puss.ies??

[Internal Boxer]

As far as I can see there are several reasons why people learn MA

1) people have a fear of being atacked and training in MA is a security blanket, wether or not that is a delusion is another debate.

2) Through just a pure love of what MA (aethetics, health, hobby)

3) To gain respect from others and/or to be seen as a tough guy.

4) Cause they like to fight.

( I would have written spititual but to compare MA as spirtual when compared to something like Za Zen is like comparing a unicycle to a space ship)

Obviously MA are more than just about fighting. But if we take the view that the main reason for learning MA is for fighting then to some degree this makes all MA's somewhat unrealistic.

We need to cast distinction on what fighting is. Is the mafia man a fighter? I do not know much about the mafia, but I do know something about the IRA, and their members don't bother with going to MA class. I think the same will apply to most terrorist and if not all organised crime syndicates.

So if the real guys who tread the fine line between life and death do not bother with things like UFC tournies and MA then it really shows up the whole MA community for what we all are, nothing more than ordinary law abiding folk playing at fighting.

The real nasty guys will not bother "fighting" you they will just kill you, wether, gun, knife, explosive, poison. So in some ways I think we all delude oursleves into thinking that we can defend ourselves, when in fact none of us can. :eek:

What do You Think:confused:

[MightyB]

MAs are for Pus.sies.

Most people are too pus.sy to even admit why they started the martial arts.

[Mr Punch]

I started because I was into the philosophy, and I thought it would be cool to be able to defend yourself without inflicting too much damage on your attacker...

several good long inhalations of stiff coffees later...

I'm an ass-kicking pu.ssy! But I'd still like to live in that fantasy where I can actually preserve that very same ass.

[Former castleva]

"( I would have written spititual but to compare MA as spirtual when compared to something like Za Zen is like comparing a unicycle to a space ship)
"
Zen is a part of various MA,just like tao as an example.

Zazen then,basically means meditation done from sitting position,possibly in buddhist manner.Yes,it is there.

"We need to cast distinction on what fighting is. Is the mafia man a fighter? I do not know much about the mafia, but I do know something about the IRA, and their members don't bother with going to MA class. I think the same will apply to most terrorist and if not all organised crime syndicates.
"
I agree that there is a major difference.You´re talking of criminals (at least mainly) purpose of pure MA is to build a safer society as far as you can,understanding this slightly simple fact,it is obvious that crime is opposite to what is being taught.

sidenote:remember fighting is not glamorous,it is a crime.

"people have a fear of being atacked and training in MA is a security blanket, wether or not that is a delusion is another debate."
"The real nasty guys will not bother "fighting" you they will just kill you, wether, gun, knife, explosive, poison. So in some ways I think we all delude oursleves into thinking that we can defend ourselves, when in fact none of us can. "

In this world we are living,it is relatively hard to be completely safe at all times,but to be prepared for that can greatly increase our changes of not ending up in danger which can be avoided with certain ways (budo) and increasing the changes of succes if pushed towards the line.
This is much a question of you too.

"So if the real guys who tread the fine line between life and death do not bother with things like UFC tournies and MA then it really shows up the whole MA community for what we all are, nothing more than ordinary law abiding folk playing at fighting."

"Cause they like to fight."
"To gain respect from others and/or to be seen as a tough guy."

Earlier statements,
In order to gain respect from others,sincerely respect others.
If you´re only to serve yourself and feed your image,then you´ve lost it.This kind of coarse path to ruin comes from forgetting about essential areas/heart and therefore leads to wrong kind of development of character.

"Through just a pure love of what MA (aethetics, health, hobby)"

All good reasons to study,and there´s more.

"So if the real guys who tread the fine line between life and death do not bother with things like UFC tournies and MA then it really shows up the whole MA community for what we all are, nothing more than ordinary law abiding folk playing at fighting."

If you can promote peace,great.

[Ford Prefect]

I'd say it's split. I know some, like myself, started as something athletic to do after getting out of school (no more athletic teams). Some people saw Bruce Lee and thought it'd be cool. Some people are insecure little wimps who think that doing a MA will make them tougher not realizing that their problem i psychological. Some people learn them out of necessity.

[Souljah]

I'm a pus;y for starting MA? Why, because I wanted (initially) to learn how to defend myself in hand to hand combat? Why does this make me a pus;y?
Of course the IRA or any other group of outlaws could just come and kill me if they wanted to, but they could also come and do the same to someone who doesnt train in MA.

But the likeliness of this happening is very low unless I get myself involved.....which, i can say, due in many ways to martial arts I now will not even consider. Its more likely that I just run into someone on the street who wants whats in my bag or something.
And if I saw it as something I could do, I would 'defend myself'.

MA isnt just about fighting, as you have even mentioned people take it up for hobby, fitness/health etc.

So if it is taken up for these reasons, as a hobby, even a sport does that make the practitioner a pus;y? If so then why dont you say the same for all people with hobbies and participants in sports, because they have the same intention of the hobby orientated ma'ist. Do they not?

Mighty , I can admit to why I started MA. At first it was because my friends went, then, as they stopped going and only one of my 'new' found friends was still going (who had alot of exp in MA).
I did consider stopping, but then Ifound that I enjoyed going.

At first it was a hobby for me, it could even still be, I dont discipline myself well enough to call it a way of life.
But i feel I have grown and that I do wish in future to use kung fu as a way of life and not just a means to become a better fighter or build a better physique.....as these were my initial intentions, but now i find myself in the middle of hobby-----and lifestyle.

Of course there are many who as you say 'delude' themselves into thinking they can defend themselves, although most MArtists show more humility towards their art and dont trancend reality inthat sense. However even if they did, you could say MA helped them develop confiedence in themselves, not just in fighting but in general.
MA's Affect people in many different ways and it depends on the indiviual on how they are to develop themselves.

Then you say the that MA and zen are like comparing a unicycle to a space craft. Why? many martial arts act as physical and mental guides and becoming a MArtist for spiritual purposes is very common. From the days that Bodhidarma taught the 15 movements to the shaolin monks to improve health and taught them proper meditation your point has been disproven.
Also, where would the more complicated things be without the seemingly simpler ones? (unicycle or any basic form of transport compared with spacecraft as you did)
Many things develop off oneanother and you cannot rule ones relationship with the other out..

As you may have guessed i disagree.....:cool:
done

[Ryu]

Originally posted by MightyB
MAs are for Pus.sies.

Most people are too pus.sy to even admit why they started the martial arts.


Okay okay it's true!!! :( I started MA because my father put me in a martial arts class when I was 5!!!!! *sob*!!!!

:D

Ryu

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm more of a puppy, myself. I want to roughhouse, play, have fun, stay healthy.

THAT'S MY SQUEAKY TOY, MOTHERF*CKER! GIVE IT BACK!

[eulerfan]

The mafia may not bother with MAs but I'm pretty sure the triads do.

But I would probably never have to deal with organized crime. I have had a man overpower me before. It wasn't pleasant. If I'd had a weapon in my purse, I wouldn't have been able to get to it.

Funny, though. Most of the guys in my class have been in a lot of street fights. They are older now and would rather not get into anything like that again.

Now that they will no longer put themselves in situations where they would have to fight, they've taken up MA. I think they don't want to give up fighting completely or something.

[sweaty_dog]

"The real nasty guys will not bother "fighting" you they will just kill you, wether, gun, knife, explosive, poison. So in some ways I think we all delude oursleves into thinking that we can defend ourselves, when in fact none of us can."

Martial arts isn't going to save you from someone who wants you, specifically, dead, but that doesn't make MAists pus.sies. What about bouncers and pro boxers/kickboxers? They don't use weapons but they still take a beating, or at least run the risk of it. Also there are plenty of cops and military people who use martial arts for real.

[MightyB]

"What about bouncers and pro boxers/kickboxers? They don't use weapons but they still take a beating, or at least run the risk of it. Also there are plenty of cops and military people who use martial arts for real.

No comparison, Those guys are real, the average MAist is a delusional pus.s who pretends to be on the same level as those guys. Look at how they train and what they value as important to their training. Martial Arts--- bwa,ha,ha-- take away "martial" and that's what we are. I emphasize "we" because I'm in the same boat. Most martial arts applications are tantamount to when you get zinged at work but you don't come up with a comeback until you're halfway home during your daily commute. Look at sparring, it's pretty much free as far as techniques used, but everybody I see spar looks like they are doing a bad TKD impression and not even using anything that remotely looks like the style they train in (myself included).

Boxing, kick boxing, san shou, judo, and BJJ (fencing and kendo can be included also) are the exception. When they spar, they use what they are taught.

How come most martial artists treat self defense as a byproduct of participating in the martial arts? This is what I meant by "Most MAists are too pus.sy to even admit why they started." When people find out that it doesn't work is when they invent all kinds of reasons for staying in. Big secret-- it works when you train with the proper mindset-- that being the mindset of using it to fight, not health, not zen, not chi-ese, but to fight. Health and internal development are a byproduct of learning how to fight, not the other way around. Actually, the TKD and traditional Karate guys that I've talked to seem to know this, it's the traditional kung fu-ers that seem to be the most whacked.

Chang, as always, your response was the most honest.

[scotty1]

I think it's fairly obvious that MA is not going to protect you from a terrorist bomb etc.

But it might stop you getting hurt by some a-hole in a pub, and that's enough for me.

And if my girl and I are walking home one night and some d!ck or group of d!cks wants to humiliate me or her, and I can stop them doing that, then my MA has served its purpose.

Am I a pu$$y?

[Chang Style Novice]

I'll bet that Sweaty_Dog* has my squeaky toy. I can hear him chewing on it. When he comes around this corner, I'm gonna jump him! Then I'm going to lick my butt clean.


*Dogs don't sweat, they release heat in the form of moisture by panting.

[Xebsball]

When i was 4 or 5 years, on kindergarden there was this kid that was a bully. He hit the other kids and stuff.
One day i taunted him and he decided to come after me, so i ran. While he was trying to catch me he slipped and fell. Then he cried :D that was sweet.
I was never a pu.ssy, a pu.ssy with a plan maybe.

[Former castleva]

MightyB,
I hate to say this but I think you´re making a line of generalisations.Sounds a bit emotional to me.
No offense but don´t you think you´re saving the efforts of others by talking for them,huh?
Should present "average" MA ppl prove themselves somehow in order to fit in to some unknown category? There´s more to this,but this is for now.
:)


Xebsball,nice ****inson lyrics.


:) :)

[MightyB]

Former castleva,

In truth, I'm paraphrasing a lot of stuff that I've read and come up with through the years.

I ordered some stuff through MAMart and you can get a free magazine with every order. They don't tell you that it's a back issue from 1996. But, that was good because I wouldn't have read the article otherwise. It was by some famous traditional Tai Chi teacher from China who stated that although he didn't completely object to people training for purely health reasons, he wanted them to know that push hands weren't the ultimate level of Tai Chi. Free sparring was.

That's my point, ppl don't take what I say personal, I just like to throw around some controversy once in a while. But, I do believe that people have to train with the mindset of actually using kung fu in a fight for it to be effective. And, you have to spar, otherwise you're just fooling yourself. Plus, if you've been following anything that I've written for the past couple of months, you know that I'm not exactly a big promoter of the Chi Hippy mentality. I'm equally disgusted by pajama wearing slap taggers who think that they are invincible. A couple of my pet peeves I guess.

[red5angel]

I joined the marines to kill people with guns, knives, bombs...er..protect the country I meant. I joined martial arts because everyone knows someitmes guns jam, bombs dud and knives break. :)

[Arhat of Fury]

I think Mighty B and Internal boxer should quit having the prozac parties:D

I joined martial arts to make my unorthodox style of fighting into a more orthodox style with lethal techniques to help my marketing plan for my hitman service.

See the last guy I killed, didnt die as quikly as I like.
:D :D :D :D :D : wanna play

AOF

[yenhoi]

"A martial artist is someone who is technically proficient, healthy, and has some kind of commitment to a training lifestyle."

-- stolen from some 'tim's shen wu' site

Best definition I have found so far as to what seperates the MA's from the pus sy MA's.

Why does it matter why someone started training? The benefit is in the act of training, not the why...

Anyways, i started because of:

1) Pursuit of Knowledge: study of Tao.
2) Nunchaku
3) Im a Masocist (sp?)

[Losttrak]

I originally started martial arts cuz I was bored. However, I took it all the way was becuz I think it was a subconscious desire to no longer be a victim. I grew up with violence everywhere as a kid and eventually got tired of seeing it. SooOoo.. I started hurting people back. Martial arts was I suppose my way of gaining control over what I perceived as a never-ending violent cycle. Less so for my sake but for those like my mother and sister who couldnt protect themselves.

[Former castleva]

MightyB,
Thanks for the quick reply.
I see.I agree that if you are after a certain thing,you should train it.
Even though you may train them all at once,which is likely,and positive but that´s another story.

I can´t speak for slap taggers but oh well if your description is for real then I understand completely.

[Internal Boxer]

Obviously some of you have got the wrong end of the stick , re-read my post. I never said that Martial artists are puss.ies, I posed a question, for you guys to start a debate.

Even boxing, kickboxing, bjj and so on delude themselves into thinking they can defend themselves against someone who wants them dead. THEY AINT GOING TO FIGHT YOU, THEY DO NOT WANT TO FIGHT THEY JUST WANT TO KILL YOU. So wether you are the King of the Ring or a forms man who thinks he can fight it does not make a difference. The clever hardened crim will just see you as a lamb for the slaughter no matter how good a fighter you are, it is all about how far another human being will go with no morals to restrict his desires, I you find a posionous snake in your house, you are not going to fight it, you would just find something to kill it, that is how these guys see the person they want to kill, just something in their way.

What I was trying to get across is that styles or training is not what makes a person deadly but their MIND SET!!

[shaolinboxer]

"What I was trying to get across is that styles or training is not what makes a person deadly but their MIND SET!!"

Most certainly.

[SevenStar]

a criminal carrying a knife gets the urge to kill someone. he sees this man and violently attacks him. little does he know, the "victim" is a 15 year silat stylist who is very experienced in all facets of knife fighting.

a gang banger gets into a shootout with a man whose house he just broke into. he intends on killing the man, but his aim is off, as he has no real shooting experience. the "victim", a marksman and former SEAL easily shoots him down.

the "kill you" mindset accounts for alot, but is not always more important than training.

[Chang Style Novice]

testing new userpic and tagline

edit - it worked! D@mn squeaky toy is probably with GDA's beer...

[Budokan]

"But if we take the view that the main reason for learning MA is for fighting then to some degree this makes all MA's somewhat unrealistic."

That thesis is flawed from the beginning. Only someone who doesn't know anything about MA or very little would think that the main reason for learning MA is for fighting. We cannot take this view, because the view is wrong.

Those of us who have been in the martial arts for a lengthy period understand that MA is most decidedly NOT about fighting.

Anyway, onto more important matters: Chang Style, I know where your squeaky toy is. Fork over 100 dollars in unmarked bills or you'll never see it again....! (I will, however, allow you to lick your butt clean because I do have some compassion)

[Chris McKinley]

Interesting post. Even though the question is obviously facetious, it brings up a point that rarely gets thoroughly thought through by people taking up martial arts.

In a very general sense, there are 2 reasons, historically, why ppl learned martial arts. 1) for use in war by military personnel, and 2) for protection of the average individual against civilian predators/bullies. In regard to the second reason, then the answer can be a definite "yes", if by "*****", you define it to mean someone not as naturally gifted with predatory mindset, large physical stature, or natural fighting ability.

In my own case, for example, I began studying the martial arts at the age of six to be able to handle myself against possible future school bullies. I was a nice little kid; didn't have much of a predatory nature, so for me, the martial arts provided a bit of insurance against those that did.

While my reasons for continuing my martial arts study changed throughout the years, my current reasons have been streamlined and simplified down to only two. 1) Self-preservation and the ability to defend my family against predators, and 2) as an adjunct to my overall health practices. That's it. Anything and everything else is purely incidental.

You bring up an extremely important point, for those interested in realistic self-preservation training in mentioning that criminals and terrorists aren't typically interested in earning their purple belt at their local McDojo. IMO, most martial arts training, at least in the U.S., is almost completely irrelevant to real life-or-death combat, especially the way it is taught. Serious criminals will almost ALWAYS employ weapons when they plan to do someone physical harm. This is simply pragmatic and is congruent with an overall strategy of gaining as much advantage over a potential target/victim as possible to stack the odds in the criminal's favor.

This isn't a new practice, by any means at all. Weapons have been employed by humans willing to harm other humans longer than we've had the ability to communicate with speech. It's only been a recent development, and only within certain cultures, to insist on training only with empty hand skills. Curiously, criminals in ALL cultures seem not to have noticed, as even in these cultures they still employed/employ weapons in their assaults.

This being the case, it is dangerously unrealistic not to include regular and realistic training against weapons if one is claiming to teach viable self-defense to the public. Such training should also not be a history lesson, either.....i.e., obsolete weapons from martial history should not be a part of this training. Instead, the training should include weapons the student is actually likely to encounter in real life. In our time, this would include guns, knives, bats, tire irons, machetes, chains, etc. There aren't any roving bands of kwan dao or tassled spear-wielding thugs to worry about. It's the punk with a 9mm tucked into the back of his pants that threatens the modern student.

Occasionally, there are areas of overlap in this training. Yesterday's bamboo short stick and today's billy club are similar enough that the training for handling each can be completely identical. All the better, from the student's perspective, since time-tested methods for this weapon have already been developed.

The disparity between what's being taught in the typical mass-market, lowest common denominator, "family"-oriented martial arts school and what's actually needed to deal effectively with REAL criminals and terrorists is what drives your original question, at least as I have understood it. Training to deal with real criminals intent on maiming or killing innocent victims is, and always has been, nasty nasty business. It always has involved, among other things, learning how to kill another human being if necessary. The psychological aversion to such activity, while also a natural survival instinct, is responsible for the "watering-down" (whether intentional or not) of typical current modern training.

Let's face it....learning to kill someone, and actually practicing those skills, is and should be distasteful to a normal, well-adjusted person. The psychogical processes that people undergo to sublimate the natural aversion to such activity and to rationalize its practice is originally what gave rise to the concept of martial "arts", as opposed to merely collective sets of catalogued combatives.

All this being the case, I think the potential student is well-served in precisely, perhaps even solemnly, identifying his/her reasons for beginning a study of the martial arts. IMO, the real thing isn't for everybody. For those willing/able/obligated to undergo such training, we may also, depending on personal ethics, feel an additional sense of obligation to use our skills to defend those who, for whatever reasons, don't possess our abilities.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. ;)

[MightyB]

Well said.

[KC Elbows]

Am I the only person who took up martial arts because it looked like fun?

[Chang Style Novice]

KC - My puppy metaphor wasn't too complex for you, was it?

[SanSoo Student]

just testing out my avatar, and I took MA to learn how to fight in the beginning, but now I have changed..MA changes the person if you stick with it enough. It makes you realize that the main purpose is to learn how to defend yourself and those that are weaker. "Learn to fight to not fight"

[Leonidas]

Martial arts not for fighting?

Then what for?

[rogue]

Why selling memberships to the Black Belt Club of course!;)

[Xebsball]

Yeah Former, definately, i like lots of his stuff with Roy Z and Adrian Smith.

Chris, great post dude :D

[Choke]

it works when you train with the proper mindset-- that being the mindset of using it to fight.............Actually, the TKD and traditional Karate guys that I've talked to seem to know this, it's the traditional kung fu-ers that seem to be the most whacked.

What traditional Kung fu systems? Bak Mei for one is very much a "I'll kill you" system. YKM is even more aggressive with regards to intent to atack and do serious damage. One gets the feeling from the techs in these systems that they were designed to at the very least disable someone in short order.

On the other hand if someone comes after you with a gun.......shoot him.

"There are very few problems that can not be solved with high explosives."


Choke.

[MightyB]

Choke,

I'm not talking about the systems or the techniques that they teach, I'm talking about the mindset of the practitioners. Every martial art was designed for self preservation and they all incorporate lethal techniques. But, as a broad generalization, I find that TCM practitioners tend to deny ever even getting involved in the martial arts for the martial applications. It's always some cultural or spiritual BS.

Fighting effectively is more difficult than internal health development. One can focus on training for self defense and, as a byproduct, gain the attributes that everybody claims to be seeking (i.e. health, longevity, chi, etc.). One cannot focus on internal development and health and expect to be a good fighter as a byproduct (tae bo, tai-chi for health excluding martial application, etc.).

[Choke]

Yeah I get what your saying and it is a very good point.
But what I was saying and perhaps didn't express it very well is that some systems teach as part of the system a fighting, aggressive, attacking with intent type mideset. This might explain the effectiveness of those systems that you have listed as being such.

To be a good fighter you must train to fight - no denying the logic in that one.

[Merryprankster]

KC,

No. Me toooooo!

I wrestled because it looked like fun, and BJJ because it looked like fun, and box because it looks like fun.

Why do extra stuff that's not fun?

[Chang Style Novice]

Out of the goodness of your heart. I've been known to donate time and effort for the right cause, even if it's not a laugh a minute.

Okay, back to the topic.

[Merryprankster]

Ah yes, Chang, good point.

Checkmate, **** you! I'm taking my board and going home.

[Chang Style Novice]

See that Ralek? With absolutely no training on the ground, my taijiquan allowed me to tap out a BJJ purple with ease.

Go me! Go me! It's your birthday! In about 8.5 months!

[omegapoint]

First off this is a decent thread. Everyone is giving their opinions honestly and with civility. I agree with a few folks on here and I can see the others angles.

Intent like all things is relative. If you are talking about combat oriented things, like self-defense or MAs in general, then we all know what the original intent was. Things have a way of changing over time. You can call it the natural progression or regression of things, evolution and devolution respectively. Empty hand-to-hand fighting (or with a weapon), the first formalized methods of combat, were strictly for martial or war purposes. There are hieroglyphs in Egypt which depict soldiers going through various armed and unarmed forms, as well as 2 man drills. These were real warriors whose training methods depended on learning in a productive, non-injurious manner.

Later, due to man's insatiable thirst for blood, entertainment and distraction, life-or-death gladiatorial and other "environmentally controlled" fighting games were developed. The intent was still there, and many offshoots displayed this intent in their training methodology. Other subsets of the various combat traditions around the world found something lucrative and beneficial in making these contests much safer so that a good fighter could extend the generation of money. As time went on man saw a need through prudence and increased "sophistication", to adapt to profit. More rules and controls followed and the berserker-rage-fueled chaos of combat (gladiatorial or battlefield) was tempered significantly.

This is modern MAs for the most part. Of course there is skill and athleticism involved, and many modern "gladiators" are outstanding fighters. I don't ever want to fight anyone, let alone someone like Rickson Gracie or Frank Shamrock. The level of proficiency that the "pro" fighter attains is more than adequate for self-defense. Some modernists claim a MA "shouldn't take 10 years" to learn for proficiency to be attained. Yet the work involved in competitive training is extensive, and you will notice that many good sport fighters have been training for numerous years and often more intensively than traditionalists at that.

Proficiency can be attained through a more external route or one of an internal path or a combination of both. I choose moderation. This may be another aspect of Yin and Yang, Goho and Juho, or the External and Internal many masters spoke of. They are complimentary, not exclusive.

The old-school masters understood that in the future in order for their methods to be preserved, fast, efficient basics and gross-motor movements had to be taught. Knowing that things change awfully quick when someone begins to reinterpret it many systems created kata or forms to pass down techs, sometimes encoded through symbolic movements, other times quite apparent. 2-man drills, sparring and other training methodologies were stressed. Many very good MAs have no free-fighting or sparring. Still, styles like Shaolin are very efficient self-defense arts, and have been for hundreds of years. Yes you do need to spar, but beyond a certain proficiency level, the need becomes counterintuitive and counterproductive. You see the folly in training for structure. Fighting is unexpected and the opposite. Unless it is a controlled game you freely participate in.

There are other intangibles to take account of. Most athletes would probably be fairly proficient at any number of sports. Genetics, work ethic and having sufficient training time for these endeavors are very important. Another element is training in a certain way so that you understand the INTENT of the game. To say that this is not the case and it is what they are training in that makes them great, then I would say that you don't understand how proficiency works. The fact is that these guys concentrate a majority of their waking effort on one task, they work hard at it and become proficient players.

Someone made an observation about the fact that the striking arts all look like bad TKD when they are in the ring. The answer to this enigma lies in that statement. I said on the ORA forum, before reading his post, that the reason all striking arts look like a variation on boxing, or for our purposes kickboxing, was that many of the exponents of kickboxing were Okinawan or Korean trained Karateka who only studied their respective arts for 1-4 years.

Many never went back to study with their original teacher or a teacher from the same or similar system. They never tried to research their systems on their own. Instead they looked to that thing that brought them fame, glory and money- competition. The influence of boxing, and even wrestling and judo on these pioneers lends credence to the fact that the structure of striking arts would change to meet this modern criteria. In addition, 1-4 years of deep study into a traditional system is insufficient for advanced understanding and training of a MAs purpose and tactics. You must continue to train in an art for years and years in order to become effective in it. This holds true for all things.

There are very few MAs out there, traditional or otherwise, that understand the FIRST INTENT of their systems. Many arts come from a strictly martial or self-preservation background. Many have changed to fit a modern mold or to mask true meaning. If all arts are an amalgamation of combat strategy and tactics, how could one ever say that intent is not concretely defined? That is because you can rationalize anything and, for the most part, perception is singular. Some people's intent is to make money off their sacrifice or to gain acceptance, validity or recognition for their skills. The genesis of their art(s) probably had/has a deeper meaning than that. You must undertand this in order to see this. You may not have a NEED or WANT to see this, though. Times and perception of intent do change.

You can make anything relevant, especially if you get others to go along with it. Curling is a big sport in some countries, and soccer is the largest sport everywhere except the USA. Does that validate the "star" status or worth of its playes? It's all subjective.

So to finish a long-winded reply, I would summarize by saying maybe modern MAs, combat sports, MMAs or whatever new manifestation of the warrior tradition that you are talking about, were needed to preserve the "do" or philosophical intent of its progenitors. The Marquis de Queensbury understood this and boxing was fundamentally changed. Itosu and Funakoshi understood this, so Karate was adapted to modern convention. Jigoro Kano did the same with several schools of JJJ when he formalized Kodokan Judo, as did Helio with Kodokan Newaza and GJJ (devolution becoming evolution), and Bruce Lee with Wing Chun and its antecedent Jeet Kune DO. There will always be a need for these interpretations, if MAs is to thrive.

Without comparison there would be no need for ways. Everyone would do it one way, THE WAY. Since there is no specific panacea to the questuion of MAs each individual must use there own minds to judge what THEIR WAY is. Trusting your own analytical and decision making ability is crucial in order for something to be revealed to you.

In the end the intent of all MAs is self-preservation when it counts most. Trivializing this fact is something many battle-hardened "masters" addressed with swift condemnation. Don't take their word for it though. Some folks DO have to find out the hard WAY. Peace...