MA related thread!!! Intent.

[Mr Punch]

What does intent mean to you in your art?

I mean the intent to strike or whatever leading your action, rather than the intent to get your fat lazy asses away from the computer and into the kwoon!!

Seriously, how would your concept of intent fit with zanshin or mushin, or wouldn't it?

[Cody]

It is via the concept and experience of No-Mind that I discovered what intent was many years ago.
I see the totality of Intent in MA as the full conscious and subconscious Will, combined with a decision as to the manifestation of that Will. To some extent, one can put education and thought into the conscious Will; though it takes consistent and diligent effort to realize, evaluate, and regulate the deeper regions of one's nature, such that results of one's intended actions are relatively predictable in extreme circumstances.

So, for me, it was not a matter of what action to take, but rather of what end I wished. For instance: to defend without limits; to defend without doing harm, etc. The intent should follow quickly, without conscious thought, after a comprehensive judgment of what the situation entails occurs. It's tricky, and one of the things I have found most interesting.

Cody

[Lisa]

In my school, intent means doing each movement for a reason and knowing what that reason is, as opposed to simply doing the movement.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Intent is what guides the Qi. When you make the act of decision the quality of the act is manifested by the quality of your intent. When your shen is clear your intent is clear.

[yenhoi]

strike!

[shaolinboxer]

"Seriously, how would your concept of intent fit with zanshin or mushin, or wouldn't it?"

Perhaps intent is the source from which zanshin eminates.

[Liokault]

Intent is what guides the Qi. When you make the act of decision the quality of the act is manifested by the quality of your intent. When your shen is clear your intent is clear.

hows the dancing going repulsive?



Intent is somthing that was constantly drilled into me when i first started Tai Chi.

To me it means that after my attack i do not stop....my intent goes on.

If i punch you my intent is to do you damage not to punch you. so when i punch (or any attack i choose to carry out) i do not feel that i have done my bit by landing my punch....my intent goes on (i.e i carry on trying to hurt you with no let up) till you are no longer a threat.

[Cody]

I didn't request clarification before, but now it is necessary. I don't know the word "zanshin." Is it a synonym for mushin?

Your response puzzled me. I am thinking that you might be referring to a spiritual source that transcends the individual, that intent which would be identical to one's intent within that paradigm. Am I reading you correctly?

Cody

[Mr Punch]

Good replies. Thanks.

Cody: very personal explanation. Interesting. But I don't see a difference between the decision coming from a fully conscious/subconscious will and the manifestation of that. Surely, if you're mind is unified through mushin the decision and the manifestation will be the same? As Yenhoi said (LOL at Zenhoi!) strike!. If you start putting conscious restraints (do I want to do full damage, do I want to prevent harm) then your intent is not unified with your action: in short... we're thinking too much!!! :D

In zen theory you have nen which is thought and the seed of pure intent. This is considered conscious. So, if you achieve kenshou (satori) it is usually followed by the thought i am enlightened!!!, and you've already blown it. Ditto when you learn to chi sao or spar. Everybody stops themselves for a split-second going YES! GOT HIM! or rather YES! GO- THUNK:eek: as their opponent retaliates.

The same theory states that you should try and catch nen at a previous stage, or rather, nen should catch itself at a previous stage, the nen-before-nen (can't remember the term... sen-nen???), and this unifies your intent in a state of mushin, and makes your actions automatically true to your conscious and unconscious mind.

Shaolinboxer, that was interesting. I thought zanshin was a kind of intent, and a source for more...! But if you try and catch nen at the nen-embryo stage (before it manifests itself as a subconscious desire/thought) you have a chicken-egg scenario, or Catch 22: there's always a thought that you've managed to stop the thought, unless you can channel it into simultaneous and spontaneous intent and action.

Cody: the first character for zanshin means leftover/remaining. The shin is the same as in mushin and can be translated as heart, mind, or spirit (they are indivisible in a lot of old-style Japanese thinking). Zanshin is often translated into English as a focussed awareness as opposed to mushin which is translated as an all-round, unfocussed awareness.

Here was the root of my question.

Already we have two intents. Repulsive Monkey says it leads the chi. (What's shen again?! - sorry, learning one language is enough for me ol brain cell!). Liokault says it is about not finishing movement/awareness when you've got that hit, or finished one opponent.

Liokault's is more like zanshin, then, which in kendo for example is all about the kiai as you follow-through halfway across the room vibrating through your enemies' spirits, or the slow, precise finishing movements in the kata, representing remaining ready for the next one after having delivered the killing blow.

So, thanks again, but I'm going on, and I'd like some help! I wanna hear more from everybody who's posted on this thread so far... even another 'strike' from Yenhoi, which really does cut through the quatz! Does intent come before, after, or both? Does it lead your body? Is it a conscious decision or a manifestation of the subconscious? etc...

Lisa, are you talking about in forms? What about in sparring/chi sao/fighting?

[diego]

Originally posted by Cody
It is via the concept and experience of No-Mind that I discovered what intent was many years ago.
I see the totality of Intent in MA as the full conscious and subconscious Will, combined with a decision as to the manifestation of that Will. To some extent, one can put education and thought into the conscious Will; though it takes consistent and diligent effort to realize, evaluate, and regulate the deeper regions of one's nature, such that results of one's intended actions are relatively predictable in extreme circumstances.

So, for me, it was not a matter of what action to take, but rather of what end I wished. For instance: to defend without limits; to defend without doing harm, etc. The intent should follow quickly, without conscious thought, after a comprehensive judgment of what the situation entails occurs. It's tricky, and one of the things I have found most interesting.

Cody

Interesting Post, Definatly something to think about...but in a fight one had better hurry and think:)

[Cody]

diego,
I guess I wasn't clear. My fault. I was describing aspects of mind which integrate in a cooperative fashion, during a fight or friendly encounter, when ordinary thought processes are shut down and there is a wonderful unity of self (mushin), shut down after a rapid judgment of intent of opponent and environmental factors. This is my experience. It is probable that subconscious monitoring of opponent intent takes over, but that's too advanced for me to analyze. All the preparatory thinking was a form of training I imposed upon myself as a matter of responsibility.
thanks.

Mat,
It's very hard for me to find the right words, and I like your question. addressing first paragraph.

Much of the active thinking is concurrent with technical training, and is related to introspection - questioning one's emotional nature as to how far to go (how far is right for you, and appropriate to different situations). Of discovering in the freedom that this state of being gives whether one not only judges other people's motives correctly, but is in emotional balance with the requirements of the moment. Okay, in the moment, there is no emotion, from what I know. But, what leads up to it and what is present in our natures will emerge on autopilot. That's my opinion. Even at a technically low level, this naturally altered consciousness produced a potential that led me to take stock, so that an "accident" (it wouldn't really be an accident in my view) would not happen.
The restraints are a result of self programming, and do not function in a conscious context when engaged. I would compare the restraints as akin to settings on a Star Trek phaser.

The word that comes thru in my mind is "defend," and the quick judgments I mentioned occur nonverbally and are processed in a blink of an eye. There is little or no thought, other than a possible "now." The restraints, have been programmed to a subconscious level. It's a done deal. Hence, in practice, the intent is unified with the action, and the verbal and consciously analytical brain is bypassed after the first stage.

However, I think there is room for error when intent can be jerked around by emotional undercurrents which have not been adequately acknowledged, and can affect the eventual decision in a No-Mind situation. I don't think that No-Mind necessarily guarrantees the necessary balance. Intent is a complex thing.
I know what you are saying, and maybe I'm splitting hairs. I think this subject matter is important enough to be fussy with. You are correct that ultimately the decision and the manifestation are the same. I'm talking about training for decisions so that consistently objective decisions are possible and probable and lead to correct action according to the true nature of the person..

My work involves a closer "awareness" of the subconscious. like making the boundary between conscious and subconscious less dividing, for want of a better word.

Shen is spirit. Please don't ask me for a discourse on Shen and Chi, cause that would be over my head. I feel they are related and yet different. Both are used in combat. The spirit can be stronger than the body, an important weakness. From my understanding, body is strengthened by training it's energy (Chi) . I would agree with Repulsive Monkey that Intent guides the Qi. And "When your shen is clear your intent is clear" also rings true for me. I think of shen as the essence of a person, which I cannot personally define for myself yet. The interactions of Shen, emotional self, and the reasoning brain are mysterious to me. I just feel that there is something there besides my feelings and my thinking, even my body, and which makes me feel alive when it is cultivated in training. Haven't been able to get past this point without babbling helplessly. As I don't believe in divinity, there is a cutoff point. I am more interested in practical aspects with a minimum of theory at this point, and would like to continue this work should the opportunity arise..

I can't believe it's 5am. I was beginning to trip on "nen." Need to reread this later. I know that mushin is preceded by intense but relaxed focussing, for me.

Brain needs a rest now. I'll come back. Really good thread. thanks.

Cody

[yenhoi]

Cody sez something about training the mind to make decisions that are in line with what 'truely' needs to happen at the time (and place! :D ) intent is a all-mind-body-spirit corporate memo that tells everything what the general policys are and how to act in general. See threat kill it.

Once you start to fiqure out what these lines of communication are and kinda how they work, at least on some sort of metaphor level anyways - we can start clearing the paths, getting rid of debris - casting off random conditioning, so that the spirit can do its thing the best (most effecient and un-hindered) and the body can do its thing the best, and the mind can do its thing the best.

Diet and cleanliness and health have much to do with no-mind, intent, and related.

Do you guys view physical combat as a unique expierence when discussing these types of intent and no-mind concepts and other such buisness?

[David Jamieson]

cody is correct sir.

the result of intent is the action manifestation of what you are mindful of.

peace

[yenhoi]

ttt

[Cody]

yenhoi,

not really, not out of your league. You're going from point A to point B. I start at point A, analyze/evaluate on a conscious level inside and out, on to point B; self program; experiment under supervision; point A to point B based on previous work but not having to go thru the same process. True, no-mind is a particular state of consciousness with a variable time frame. It has a reflexive nature, and what I propose is to control the reflex at its core so that the act fits the person and the situation with as much certainty as possible.

I guess that combat has a certain uniqueness to it. To defend and possibly maim or kill is not something most would want to do every day. This intensity of life experience makes it unique I think.

Not having experienced it, but I've seen Quidam (Cirque du Soleil). Here you have what I think is the closest approximation in terms of movement and training to MA, without the combat perspective. no-mind could play a part in these performers' work.

I think that where extreme focus is necessary, and we're talking in a physical situation with physical consequences and effects, a person can go into a no-mind state when a certain relaxation or surrender occurs which allows it. I think your question was a good one and I hadn't considered it before.

Kung Lek,
Thank you for that one sentence. It packs a lot, and found it of help.

Cody

[yenhoi]

Quote Cody:

I guess that combat has a certain uniqueness to it. To defend and possibly maim or kill is not something most would want to do every day. This intensity of life experience makes it unique I think.

--

Most of the language (terms) you guys seem to be using is buddist? (Zen Buddism?)

What are your thoughts of a Taoist's daily effort to act in concert with the great Tao? Is this an attempt at no-mind all the time?

[yenhoi]

ttt

[Mr Punch]

Thanks for your second post Cody: we are thinking the same way after all.


CodyHowever, I think there is room for error when intent can be jerked around by emotional undercurrents which have not been adequately acknowledged, and can affect the eventual decision in a No-Mind situation. I don't think that No-Mind necessarily guarrantees the necessary balance.

This is a key point i think. If your shen (i was right about what it was, even with my shady memory!) is clear your intent is clear. If your emotions are jerking you around then... what? You overreact and lose control?

Is Cody's defend the same as Yenhoi's strike? Of course, most martial artists with any experience will say that attack is the best form of defence, or at least, start second, arrive first, but if you verbalize the intent, or to extrapolate, analyse any aspect of the encounter, even with one word, you already have nen, and have lost the instinct.

If your response is reflex, and requires no actual verbalization, then surely even striking to kill is as valid and defensible a position as using restraint/control techniques, given that it doesn't require any premeditated action, and your training in some way includes moral responsibility for your actions/preserving life.

Yenhoi

i'm using zen terminology, because i have studied zen for a long time, as an interest, and have trained a little in it, and also because i'm studying Japanese. i've read all of the Taoist texts i've laid my hands on, but with them it really is a case of learn and forget with me! i do feel an extremely close affinity to Taoism, but that's about as far as i can go to put it into words!

Anyway, the Taoist's everyday non-effort to act in accordance with the natural way of the universal is similar, if not the same as the Zen student's way of sweeping the floor to gain enlightment, as i see it. Being.

Natural actions, mushin in everyday life as in combat, spontaneous reaction born of intuitive non-analysis... all are the essence of Zen and the Tao. Enlightenment is not a goal, just part of the universal.

i don't see any difference between sweeping the floor, sitting in seiza, or fighting (maybe that's why i always get clocked!!! :D ). The dynamism of circus performers is a good way to see calm in the eye of the storm, which we are all hoping to achieve in our arts, but personally, i find getting out of bed quite useful :D !!!

Of course, i can't get to that stage, so lying in bed for a couple of minutes too long, and writing overlong posts while drinking brandy sometimes spoils my everyday training :o !

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Once you start to fiqure out what these lines of communication are and kinda how they work, at least on some sort of metaphor level anyways - we can start clearing the paths, getting rid of debris - casting off random conditioning, so that the spirit can do its thing the best (most effecient and un-hindered) and the body can do its thing the best, and the mind can do its thing the best.

Diet and cleanliness and health have much to do with no-mind, intent, and related.

Nicely put.

[Mr Punch]

Good chat, but a bit theoretical for my intention!!!

Can we have any more replies please!!??

Anyone (!): does your sifu teach you anything about intent?
If so, what!?

[Cody]

Exactly, Mat! The lack of clarity leads to over Or underreaction and a lack of reasonable control over the self and interactions.

I would say that, in essence, my "defend" is equivalent to Yenhoi's "strike." They are endpoints of a previous decision making process put into autopilot.

It seems to me that it isn't a matter of not Requiring actual verbalization, but that this mental process is not possible because, for one thing, it's too slow. And, at least for me, the ability to verbalize in mind or vocal cords flies out the window when I'm in that state of consciousness. When I shift, even momentarily, back into a verbal mode, that changes the whole thing.

Striking to kill or to restrain are equally defensible as long as correct judgment has been used.
Constructive introspection and judgment training leads to clarity as to one's own motivations at any given time, and those of the opponent at the time of the encounter.
Deficiency in honestly (often due to a lack of depth of analysis) making these judgments, in sensitivity, etc. means there is a serious problem should certain limits be reached. In some sense, there is premeditation, very much so. This applies to thinking and, more important, feeling, what I would do in one hypothetical situation after another. Actual testing can occur with supervision, in a less dangerous but triggering encounter.

Accountability is paramount. Even with so much foundation, a mistake is possible of course. To sweep it under the rug is unacceptable. Yes, we do agree on quite a bit.

Cody

[Cody]

Yenhoi,

I liked your post. I learned about mushin via Takuan Soho. Read some passages from The Unfettered Mind, plunked them into the subconscious, and vavoom.

I would say that there's plenty of analysis, thought processes, done even when it's non verbal. Intution is based on association, signals (which might be overt body language or the normally imperceivable reading of energy states in another person), etc. Fast! That's been my experience.
Maybe it's our conscious awareness of that analysis that is missing?

You are addressing something very important here in a lovely fashion. how we are in life as a whole. I am rather at a loss on this one because I can honestly say that times I really feel alive are in mushin leading to physical action (accompanied by the feeling of acting without acting), or in scaling other psychological barriers. Like an Everest to be climbed. Without this I am bored and listless.

Cody

[Mr Punch]

Thanks again Cody. I may or may not have time/energy to get back to you on some of the things you said.

Now, anybody else?

You must have been taught something about intent...!?

[yenhoi]

The closest thing to intent I have gotten from my teacher is "to look with your mouth, talk with your eyes." Also, "Invest in loss," seems to come close to intent as well.

So Cody believes Combat is a unique thing that happens, but Mat considers it a small piece just like everything else? Combat, to me, must be like everything else. I strive not to strive to strive to not be striving in combat. (Whew! :eek: )

On errors and mistakes: by what criteria do we 'really' consider something or some action or thought or whatnot a mistake or something that shouldent have happened............ it seems regardless of what mental state you have attained or havent attained, cant really be considered an error or mistake in the sense that it was somehow wrong, only that the person or mind in question is in some way attached to some other outcome.

Realizing that 'attached' is a very loaded word.

By what criteria do we decide that some mind conditionings are not as good, or actually bad, compared to others? Some of us seek no-mind, but even a smaller group of us are unconcerned wether or not we ever reach such a state of mind or even if such a state of mind exists.

Thanks for answering my questions, Im always confused, but happy.

[yenhoi]

bump.

[Cody]

hmm. Combat is both unique and common to everything else. The difference is in the seriousness of possible lethality, or Purposeful harm (even if justified). The acceptance that these are both possible and sometimes intended outcomes sets combat apart. By combat, I refer to physical combat, and to mental combat. For me, the term "mind boxing" covers both.

A mistake. That's a toughie. I'd like to make this as nonjudgmental as possible, otherwise we get lost in something else that circles like an electron.

I like your use of the word "attached." I think you've hit the nail on the head on one aspect of the problem of error.

No-mind is based on the sum of what we are and specific intents, pre-determined by what we are, or previously decided on the same basis. Yeah, it amounts to the same thing in practice, but I'm splitting hairs. Why? because I am concerned with self-improvement.
Error can occur when what we are and the intents that come from that (an attachment in itself), attach us to a preferred outcome/course of action leading to results which do not meet with the totality of the situation. Things can get out of control and even good intentions can fold back slapping one in the face. It might be the result of naivete in a strong-willed individual. One might say that a certain inflexibility has occurred in one or more parties concerned. If there is intentional dishonesty, the harm might be compounded. Error abounds.
Yes, no-mind is an objective mental state in its own right, in which the individual has the option of self expression, and that is where the error can occur.

Error can occur when people are not consistent or honest about their priorities. The conflict between attachment to more than one outcome in one person can lead to error. The more fragmented one's life (divided loyalties) or mind (as in multiple personalities), the more conflict there is, and the more possibility for mistakes and real harm to self and others.

The human brain is a conditioning machine. If you are true to your nature and actively choose the practice you are involved in every step of the way, I guess you're doing the best you can. My litmus test is that domination is not acceptable. That which leaves one more open to suggestion or domination needs to be approached cautiously. In serving a person and allowing one's self to be conditioned mentally by that person, one needs to be careful of the domination factor, which can appear in utter softness. The line between serving an art and what it represents, and a teacher of that art is very thin.

In my view, it matters not whether one is concerned with no-mind or other mental states, unless one's expectations and strivings get in the way of the results. In other words, you shoot yourself in the foot. I was one of those who didn't much care. Looking for what arose in training, I found without seeking. Even that is no guarantee of success or security. It's a complicated life.

Cody