Extreme disrespect

[Diu Sao]

My sifu just told me some thing that really, really infuriated me. Apparently people (namely local Jiu-Jitsu, Karate and various other non-chinese martial arts) from other schools have been coming into the school and doing some incredibly disrespectful things. Such as:

Smoking a cig and walking right into the school, and even putting it out on the FLOOR of the SCHOOL.

Not offering any kind of bow, polite handshake or any other form of common introduction.

(This is the best one) walking right into the school, attempting to stare my sifu down and then walking right up to the weapons rack and taking a broad sword and then waving it around!

Even giving my sifu an outright challenge! i.e: Gong Sao!

My sifu is a very humble man, and has been through some serious hell. He is in his 60's and has very limited english skills. He would do anything for anyone who offered him even the slightest amount of respect. To hear of these insane acts of outright disrespect sends my anger to new levels. At my sifu's wishes, he asked that I not do anything at all, other than to usher them out of the school and to look the other way when these things happen. I am sure that everyone can relate to my fury in this situation.

I haven't done anything to retaliate on my sifu's wish. Losing control means that they have won the battle already, and I can never let that happen. Has anyone else had this sort of thing happen to them?

Diu Sao

(Bang)

"Oh, I'm sorry... did I break your concentration? Well alow me to retort"!

-Jules

[Ryu]

You can always say

Juh toh! Bu shang hua la! :D I'm working on my Mandarin! But am a MMA/JKD guy..... I'm not accepted by either side... :(


Seriously, I'd call the cops and make a complaint. Have them escorted out.

If your sifu was on the mean side he could always politely walk up to them, offer them a nice gesture, then sucker punch them, blitz them, and kick them in the head when they're not expecting it. :D

but only if he's on the mean side.

Ryu

[Diu Sao]

actually he speaks cantonese, but he knows mandarin as well.

[Xebsball]

He could cut or stab em up nice and deep too

[Ryu]

That's okay, my Mandarin sucks. All I can say is "Juh Toh! Bu shang hua la!" :D

And of course.

Xie xie!
Ni hau!
Ni hau ma!
dwei buchi!
bucachi!
bu tswaw

and of course my famous "Woh ai ni..." that gets the giggles from my female tutors! ;)


Ryu

[joedoe]

You could always get a high powered hunting rifle, stalk them, then kill them from long range. j/k

You have a choice I guess - do what your sifu asks, or do what you feel like doing. Ultimately if they are not causing any serious harm then why worry?

[dutch]

Diu Sao,

I've known Sifu for a very long time, and if he tells you to leave well enough alone, then leave well enough alone. As you said, he is an extremely humble man, but I'm sure if something bad enough happened he would handle it well and in his own way. By the students diffusing the situation and escorting the guys out, it looks highly on the Sifu, for the students have learned well and did not let their emotions control them. I am sorry that this kind of thing has been going on. Sifu has told me nothing of this, but that's the way he is. :-)

See you Saturday,

Dutch

[SifuAbel]

I'm sorry, they do it because he lets them do it.
I know your sifu is not a young man , but there has got to be someone to herald the school. Someone to look at them in a strong way and tell them to please leave, or at the very least not permit them in. He doesn't have to be violent but he does have to draw the line somewhere. There has to be a least the hint of a consequence.

[anton]

As you politely usher them out, invite them (with equal politeness) to a friendly sparring session at the park at a mutually acceptable time. Let your superiority as a martial artist show during the sparring session, and if your opponent tries to push the limits, then go all out and whoop his ass, put him on the ground, and tell him, that you don't care what he has been taught but that the lack of respect he demonstrated proves that he can't call himself a martial artist, and to learn something about martial arts and respect before he approaches a martial artist of your sifu's calibre again.

[Diu Sao]

That thought has crossed my mind. I'm just gonna let it go and be the better man. That's what sifu would want.



Diu Sao

[Royal Dragon]

This is an authority issue. Your Sifu is old, and probably tired of this kind of thing. Plus he sounds liek a humble and genuinly nice guy. He's at the stage of life where he wants to enjoy himslef and relax.

That being said, he has lost his authority. As his senior, it is up to you to maintan the authority in the schoool FOR him. Think of it this way, if you went to a fine resturaunt and started poking around the kitchen, how would they deal with it?? Would there be any doubt you didn't belong there?? No, of course not. You would be told in no uncertain terms to leave and returne to your seat. What you need to do is become the authority and develop a commanding pressence.

Remember, you are in charge. Don't allow them to push you around. Be stern and firm when needed, and polite and cordial the rest of the time. If they are excessively problamatic,manhandle them out the door,and lock it behind them so they can't get back in and call the police.

[Former castleva]

I´d say choose the path of least resistance if possible.
As previously stated,tell them firmly but politely that they really should leave,I think they should understand this.
They shall know they have been recognized and what they do is against the rules,I believe you may very well have the rest of your kwoon to back you up.

Even though this is no fun this reminds me of a funny incident I remember having heard at some aikido board (I hope whoever wrote that won´t mind if I borrow it a bit)
Some guy walked into a aikido dojo during practice,entered the mat with his shoes and everyday clothes on without warning and walked straight towards the instructor who was,at that time,talking with someone else.
Then the person asks the instructor something like "So what would you do against this?" he throws a roundhouse kick towards the instructor who just moves away from it´s way which ends up with the person falling down.
He never came back,so I remember to have read.

[old jong]

A well known Kyokushin teacher in Montreal once took care of three guys from some other MA school who came at his dojo to make trouble!...The three of them ended up badly beatten at the bottom of the stairs.The dojo was then on a second floor. I also heard that they were lucky that some of the students stopped their teacher from doing more damage on them!...The word spreaded out and he never was visited in such a way again.
This thing happened maybe 25 years ago and this Karate guy is still teaching in peace.
BTW. he's that kind that breaks a ciment block every morning and eat it in his cereals!...
;)

[Budokan]

It's unfortunate we live in a world like this. Showing restraint is definitely the harder path, but it's the correct one in my estimation. That said, no one has the right to come into your school and disrupt its harmony. Of course, the instant someone walks in and grabs a sword then he's fair game in my book and should have been dropped.

[SaMantis]

There's a story in my school from a few years back ... one of the sifus was working out in the main area when someone walked in and challenged him. He went, OK, then grabbed a broadsword off the weapons rack and ran toward the guy, yelling at the top of his lungs. The challenger scooted fast and never came in again.

That's one way to meet a challenge without having to get physical: just scare the pants off 'em.

[White Minority]

Sheesh. I got my ass kicked just becuase i was doing some moves while my instructor was talking to me. You guys are being way to nice to this guy.

[JAZA]

I think they are just being afraid of having a great sifu in their same area.
I'm sure your sifu have the wisdom to carry this situations.

[fa_jing]

The senior students should stop people from coming in. Offer them a seat by the door. Too much humility means finding joy in feeling affronted.

[Diu Sao]

That's usually what he does, offer them a seat. I am not the senior student there, but I am there more than anyone else. The offenders have only done this when he is alone. But I will stay on the path of restraint. It's to **** hot to close the doors in Los Angeles! Thanks for the input everyone.


Diu Sao

[African Tiger]

Funny, I mentioned this unfortunate phenomena a while back in one of my first posts on this board.

BJJ morons (this is not meant to suggest that all practitioners of BJJ are morons) seem to enjoy "sharing their art" in this manner. I offered a story of how one such brain-donor challenged a TKD friend of mine in front of his youngsters class.

I would expect this kind of behavior from Ralek, but for crying out loud, why would you challenge a guy in front of a bunch of kids? Of course in Ralek's case, the kids would knock him over and Axe Kick his ass to death...

[African Tiger]

Diu Sao, looking forward to seeing you and all the other Cali Kung Fu'ers at Dragon Fest next month!

[White Minority]

I don't think it's a BJJ person. I think it's a japanese jujitsu person. He also mentioned that karate guys and people from other styles are also doing this? Jeesh Leweesh. That is over the top. How many different people are doing this to your school? And what are their styles?

It seems like you guys are making yourselves an easy target for bullies. Non-violence is great when your dealing with minor things like when someone accidentally bumps into you. But if someone comes into your school and throws their cigarette on your floor then it's time to fight.

[HuangKaiVun]

Yes fight, but not physical.

If there's a way to fight this, it's LEGALLY.

By American law, a person does not have the right to barge into a school uninvited and start wrecking the place. That's TRESPASSING.

A simple call to the police, coupled with videotape, would end this instantly.

I suggest that the sifu find good legal counsel and have his rights explained to him by a qualified law professional.

[White Minority]

Legally? You don't need people to make laws to know what is right and what is wrong. And you shouldn't rely on other people to take care of your problems in this particular instance. I have respect for people who can fight a retard without having to call the police. But if you feel your not able to handle a situation like this then go ahead and call the police to take care of you.

After all. Martial arts aren't about fighting.

[wiz cool c]

why dont you invite them to a sparring class. Your school is choy lay fut right dont you guys fight full contact? If someone did this at a judo, wrestling or boxing school they would sparr them why not kung fu? Its like some said your teacher is old its your job to protect him.

[Chang Style Novice]

Some people around here sure are silly.

"You have dishonored my linoleum and the linoleum of my ancestors! Now you must die! HIIIIIIYAAAAAAH!"

Legal remedies exist for a reason. Do you honestly believe that if you do pound the crap out of some schlub who drops a cigarette on your floor he'll have any problem with going to the cops to file an assault and battery charge?

[Lice]

Originally posted by White Minority
Legally? You don't need people to make laws to know what is right and what is wrong. And you shouldn't rely on other people to take care of your problems in this particular instance. I have respect for people who can fight a retard without having to call the police. But if you feel your not able to handle a situation like this then go ahead and call the police to take care of you. .

And then you can spend some time in the county jail.

[African Tiger]

I disagree. Do you honestly think that any judge/jury would bother prosecuting something like that?

Some ass-monkey comes into someone else's school looking for trouble and he found it. That wouldn't even make the docket on Judge Judy, man!

He wanted a fight, he got one, he got his ass handed to him with a side of curly fries and a chocolate shake, now he wants justice/money? Puhleeze!

[Lice]

AT,

This is America, after all. Land of the frivilous lawsuits. It'd be unjustified. Someone walking into a private place of business and being disrespectful(but not threatening) and then getting beaten up would have a very easy time of it in court. Now, if they came in and punched the instructor... that'd be different.

[JAZA]

THis people must be fanatic of Karate Kid Film, from a cobra kai mcdojo. :P
Answering violent could affect legally people from your kwoon, specially your sifu is doesn´t have the U.S. nationality.
The sparring way could be more rational.

[diego]

Wheres that thread about the bruglar breaking into a bar, the owner hurts him and then has to pay the underaged thief and his moms $$$...This happenned in the uk, posted 2-4 months ago!.
These types of situations definatly no African Tiger...Because the jury would be like why did you attack before you called the cops etc!.

and what would you say?:)

[diego]

Originally posted by diego
Wheres that thread about the bruglar breaking into a bar, the owner hurts him and then has to pay the underaged thief and his moms $$$...This happenned in the uk, posted 2-4 months ago!.
These types of situations definatly no African Tiger...Because the jury would be like why did you attack before you called the cops etc!.

and what would you say?:)


THE ****KER DISGRACED MY LINOLEUM, So i went syko and B-BOY'D his A$$....:cool:

[SDriver]

I'm assuming the guys smoking are the karate guys.

KIDDING! I kid because I love.

Edited for sperling and grammer.

[African Tiger]

I think you misinterpret what I'm saying.

Someone comes into the school and says, "I challege you to a fight to see if your kung fu (etc) is better than my _______"

If the guy gets his ass kicked, and most likely he will cause this is kung fu we're talking about :D, then as the expression goes, whoopty whoop! What was he doing challenging him to a fight? Sounds like a mutual challenge to me. Should Mike Tyson sue Lennox Lewis? Well maybe he should, considering the whooping he put on Tyson.....

And sadly, yes. *******s wearing ski masks are suing homeowners, bartenders, bouncers, guard dogs, etc. left and right. Best thing to do ostensibly is kill his ass so he can't file the paperwork - should the situation call for it, of course.

But I honestly think people are waking up to frivolous (sp) lawsuits. Althoough, some jerk just won like $10 billion because he got cancer from smoking. Duh, we've known smoking causes cancer since the 60s. What, did he miss that memo or what? Was the disclaimer on the pack of cigs printed too small?

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm not sayin' the guy doesn't deserve a knot on the cranium. I'm sayin' giving him one is going to get you more trouble than it's worth.

I only heard about it after the fact, but my Sifu had this exact same problem happen with him, but he didn't drop the dude until the guy (sifu's fiancee's ex) was drunk and started swinging and kicking. Furthermore, as far as I knew, he didn't even sue, but the incident STILL caused Sifu months of headaches.

[anton]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Some people around here sure are silly.

"You have dishonored my linoleum and the linoleum of my ancestors! Now you must die! HIIIIIIYAAAAAAH!"

Legal remedies exist for a reason. Do you honestly believe that if you do pound the crap out of some schlub who drops a cigarette on your floor he'll have any problem with going to the cops to file an assault and battery charge?

OK you sue him, and win! Congratulations!
Damages awarded: Cost of one linoleum tile = $2
Lessons learned by offender = 0
Respect gained by you = -ve
Rep on street: "some cheapass loser who can't stand even up for himself, and sues for damaged linoleum"

Won $2 lost some respect... to me its not worth it.

I'd yell at the guy for disrespecting the place and the master and tell him to "get the f*ck out" and not come back until he learned some respect. If he wanted to spar I'd accept the offer and whoop his ass without doing too much permanent damage... and have a video camera there in case you do. If some damage is done then as it was a mutually accepted agreement, and as the common law is historically partial to "manly pursuits" the other guy would have trouble suing.

Either way just ushering them out politely isn't going to solve anything. Each time you take it, they'll come back and see if you'll take some more... the idea that bullies lose iterest if you ignore them is a myth, they'll always test your limits and keep pushing you further and further, as long as you let them.

[Kodiack]

I'm mostly a lurker on this board but I thought I would give my 2 cents.
First is this person that is barging into your school from another school? If so does that other schools sifu know what that person is doing? It might be worth you or your sifu's time to find out and then notify the sifu from the other school. My bet is that the other schools sifu doesn't know about his students behavior. Notifying him may put an end to this behavior. If for some reason the other schools sifu knows or just doesn't care then perhaps a match could be arranged between the schools. This is a perfectly legal way to either end the behavior or give the a-hole what he wants, a fight.
If the guy is some slob walking in off the street I would suggest doing what your sifu asks. If the guy keeps coming back then you may have to make a citizens arrest, notify the police and hold him until they arrive. Legally you have the right to use that amount of force needed to restrain the person for the police (IE-if you have to beat him up you can, if he resists your attempts at making a citizens arrest)
Either way its a tough situation, best of luck

[diego]

Originally posted by anton


OK you sue him, and win! Congratulations!
Damages awarded: Cost of one linoleum tile = $2
Lessons learned by offender = 0
Respect gained by you = -ve
Rep on street: "some cheapass loser who can't stand even up for himself, and sues for damaged linoleum"

Won $2 lost some respect... to me its not worth it.

I'd yell at the guy for disrespecting the place and the master and tell him to "get the f*ck out" and not come back until he learned some respect. If he wanted to spar I'd accept the offer and whoop his ass without doing too much permanent damage... and have a video camera there in case you do. If some damage is done then as it was a mutually accepted agreement, and as the common law is historically partial to "manly pursuits" the other guy would have trouble suing.

Either way just ushering them out politely isn't going to solve anything. Each time you take it, they'll come back and see if you'll take some more... the idea that bullies lose iterest if you ignore them is a myth, they'll always test your limits and keep pushing you further and further, as long as you let them.

Bullys etc?...this isnt ancient china we do have guns. This isnt a bruce lee flick...most do kungfu for selfdefence...they tend to be college educated in a western society...i dont think thier bodygaurd shop is in any need to be worried on going out of business...as they dont run one...So fighting for the respect of the altar proclaiming your style...seems rather childish nowadays/No


first buddy just wanted to trip...you walk him out, he calls you a biaotch!.

first buddy wanted to trip, you knock him the ****out then throw him...he gets drunk watches jerry springer, turns on the news spazzes, next morning your victem 10 but prolly in a new part of the country relating to the maryland sniper cnn reports!.

if he just wanted to trip in ancient china and got fuqed out...everyone would laugh, i mean like the whole town and he would shut up!.
Thought you may want to know this!.

[White Minority]

So, I guess you should let people do whatever they want since there are law suits. I'll remember to call the police if someone starts being a bully. I won't risk a law suit.

If someone is a bully to you then you are being picked on. Therefore call the police and tell them a mean bully is making fun of your kung fu and disrespecting the dojo and that you are highly educated and won't lower yourself to the barbarian ways of martial arts. Even though you attend a martial arts school.

[anton]

Originally posted by diego


Bullys etc?...this isnt ancient china we do have guns. This isnt a bruce lee flick...most do kungfu for selfdefence...they tend to be college educated in a western society...i dont think thier bodygaurd shop is in any need to be worried on going out of business...as they dont run one...So fighting for the respect of the altar proclaiming your style...seems rather childish nowadays/No


first buddy just wanted to trip...you walk him out, he calls you a biaotch!.

first buddy wanted to trip, you knock him the ****out then throw him...he gets drunk watches jerry springer, turns on the news spazzes, next morning your victem 10 but prolly in a new part of the country relating to the maryland sniper cnn reports!.

if he just wanted to trip in ancient china and got fuqed out...everyone would laugh, i mean like the whole town and he would shut up!.
Thought you may want to know this!.

Our school used to be in a hip/weird area and we had a Lot of weirdo's walk in, some thought they were in ancient China, others just showed disrespect. Either way sifu made sure they ran out of there and they never came back.
It's not about fighting for the honour of the school... its about disrespect, and how much of it you're willing to put up with.
Bullies are essentially the same grown-up as they were when you were at school: If you let them trample all over you they will. If you give them the impression that you don't take sh|t from anyone (even if it occasionally involves a bit of physical persuasion) they won't give you any.
Besides... I'm not talking about straight punching the guy out of nowhere, I'm talking about verbally letting him know what you think of him and if he challenges you to spar accept a friendly gloved sparring session to demonstrate your skills.

[diego]

Originally posted by anton


Our school used to be in a hip/weird area and we had a Lot of weirdo's walk in, some thought they were in ancient China, others just showed disrespect. Either way sifu made sure they ran out of there and they never came back.
It's not about fighting for the honour of the school... its about disrespect, and how much of it you're willing to put up with.
Bullies are essentially the same grown-up as they were when you were at school: If you let them trample all over you they will. If you give them the impression that you don't take sh|t from anyone (even if it occasionally involves a bit of physical persuasion) they won't give you any.
Besides... I'm not talking about straight punching the guy out of nowhere, I'm talking about verbally letting him know what you think of him and if he challenges you to spar accept a friendly gloved sparring session to demonstrate your skills.

See, i used to be that bully, so the disrespect issue is comical to me...Who cares what peeps think!.
And how are they going to trample all over you...this aint throw billy in the locker etc...bullys come back it gets criminal, then its a whole differant post we are talking about...coming from the perspect buddy threw a cig out on the floor...Obviously he is a goof, tell him to step...he comes back now he is a stalker stick him with a dart put him in a duffelbag and cement his ass off a bridge!.

I Still think its childish either way!.

[diego]

Originally posted by White Minority
So, I guess you should let people do whatever they want since there are law suits. I'll remember to call the police if someone starts being a bully. I won't risk a law suit.

If someone is a bully to you then you are being picked on. Therefore call the police and tell them a mean bully is making fun of your kung fu and disrespecting the dojo and that you are highly educated and won't lower yourself to the barbarian ways of martial arts. Even though you attend a martial arts school.
]
well bud unless you do bjj..your "martial art school" is crap because i havent heard of yall bieng Huge Bodygaurds...and ralek doesnt promote your vids!.

its like this, backwhen they had these ego battles because it was highly economical, beat a school master you get the school. martial art was seceret brotherhood type ****.

nowadays unless yall play dressup at your class...most if they were in a challenge would be repping themself with the skill of thier school...wheras backwhen it was a org and usually thier was a philosophy to the style...like they may only be bhuddists...so the bhuddist kickers would battle the christian punchers...you doing that **** now, Please put down the pipe...you got cell phones and flushing toilets, no need to own the town as #1 kf Hero.


now if a gracie came into your school said i would love to test my skills to what you guys do see if i can learn anything, that is great...and they used to do that to as you always read about the one master rocking thye other but himself calling it a tie to give great face to all...etcetc

[Former castleva]

I so much agree with Kodiack.
I was going to write about that this second time I scan this thread but way to go,you did it already.

I doubt their teacher would like his students to pop up and throw cigarettes around the place...
If you can let those sifu(s) of theirs know still keeping your dignity,I think they´d be happy to come and drag those fellows away by their earlobes (metaphor)
Unless they have some impurites on their side.

[David Jamieson]

Refuse what they offer and return it in kind.

peace

[rubthebuddha]

kodiack is right -- tell the other person's sifu/sensei. if that instructor doesn't give a ****, then you know where the problem lies.

if legal issues are any concern of yours, then you have to play the legal game:

1. next time this kid comes in, tell him to leave. immediately, and to never return. if he does not leave, call the police. this establishes a record of your call. if the student just *****es and moans, then leaves, there's still a record that you called and complained.

2. if the student comes back again, do the same thing. this establishes a pattern of intentional misconduct.

3. if something nasty eventually happens, at least you have proof that the person brought this upon himself. you told him to leave, he did, and came back another day. that implies decisive behavior -- choosing to harass you regularly. he knows he's not welcome, and if he violates that, it's trespassing.

also, next time he's in, have someone take his picture so you can give it to the police -- as evidence that the chump did come in (things such as wearing different clothing imply different occasions) -- and as identification if he's difficult to track down.

like your kung fu, you're taking steps now to prepare yourself for those few instances in the future when you may really need it. do the same now -- take the necessary steps to make sure you're as prepared and safe in the future.

2 cents poorer, but i hope it helps.

[HuangKaiVun]

A PROFESSIONAL martial arts business owner has responsibilities - financial and legal and otherwise - that the amateur martial arts enthusiast does not.

I'm a professional sifu. As far as I'm concerned, it is not ethically or morally on another instructor if his students come into my school and challenge me on HIS behalf. A sifu does not "make" a student walk into another person's school and cause trouble.

The law would recognize that those students acted on their own accord. I have to check my texts, but my understanding is that there would be no legal recourse taken against a sifu whose students acted improperly in another's school.

My lawyers have told me that if I'm physically attacked, I have a right to defend myself. How much force and what tactics I use to defend myself will be taken into account by the judge and jury during trial proceedings. The law does not look kindly on those who injure people above and beyond the call of the situation. I'd also go in very PREPARED, legally speaking.

Concerning the sifu-calling, I would call a sifu about a student of his that attacked me in his name. I would do it out of professional etiquette, to notify this teacher that he's got a troublemaker on his hands that would be spoiling his business's reputation. If more trouble ensues because of that, the Better Business Bureau would be the first to know.

Now if somebody comes into my school and politely asks to try me in sparring, I would GLADLY oblige if we laid out some ground rules beforehand. I as a martial artist and school owner accept that as the risk of doing business and would likely even sign a waiver annotating the responsibilities of entering such a situation. That's to cover my opponent's butt as much as my own.

A good kung fu man knows the parameters of his fight before even THINKING about fighting.

[JAZA]

Don Huang,

You got the rigth answer :D

[rubthebuddha]

well, he's a smArt sifu, that's why. :)