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warrenoh
04-04-2000, 01:48 AM
hi i m a Tibetan MA lover~! ^^
i train both bakhok(white crane) and lama.
my bakhok lineage-SingLung-WongLumHoi,ChiuChiYu-NgSiuChung-KwongBonFu-ChowChungYiu(VincentChow)-me
Lama Lineage-SingLung-WongYanLam-ChoiYit
Gung-GongYitGay-TonyJay-me
For me, Lama&BakHok is a same system, just different lineage.
why? because in my opinion, as long as it's within same fighting priciple, it's same arts. might train in different ways, but the goal is same.
what do u think?

p.s i'd like to get to know other tibetan lovers. after all we r all family~ ^^

flavour54take2sameperson
04-06-2000, 09:12 PM
Hi
I was just wandering is Hop Gar a crane style?

warrenoh
04-07-2000, 06:01 AM
yes, hopgar is a offspring of lama
in mainland china, there's no such style as lama, but there is this style called Xia-Jia Chuan(in cantonese it's HOP-GAR KUEN). some say this is due to communist ppl in early 50's killed tibetan-related ppl, this is why in mainland china SingLungJungLo is called by a chinese name(Li Hu-Zi)
Lineage SingLung-WongYanLam-WongHonWing-NgYimMing-.......
there are some ancestors in SiJiHaau(Tibetan Lion's Roar) lineage, whose nickname was Da-Xia-Ke(Big Knight) such as LiHuZi(SingLung), WongYanLam, WongLumHoi.......
this is why our martial arts is also called
HopGar(XiaJia-Knight Family)!!!

lkfmdc
04-07-2000, 09:20 AM
You can find a very detailed history of the Tibetan martial art at http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/9358

It will explain the splits and differences as well as lineages

warrenoh
04-08-2000, 11:40 AM
the URL above has very good information about
tibetan MA and lineage. by the way, there is
one false information, about WongYanLam and WongLumHoi.

WongYanLam&WongLumHoi are kung-fu brothers not blood-related brothers. Wong in WongYanLam is a Wong(which means King in chinese), and Wong in WongLumHoi is a Wong(which means Yellow, same as WongFeiHong)

Just to let you guys know~

PEACE~! ^^

lkfmdc
04-08-2000, 06:45 PM
Actually, some people say they are blood brothers and use the same family name character, it's a disagreement in the lineages. We keep to the version our sifu told. out of respect

lkfmdc
04-14-2000, 09:24 AM
tried to post something but didn't work /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[This message has been edited by lkfmdc (edited 04-15-2000).]

warrenoh
04-24-2000, 12:53 PM
Hmm.... no more Tibetan MA lovers out there???
Well, I guess they r too busy training. ^^

Why is tibetan MA not well-known to the public, although it is a highly-effective MA?

The answer is in the Question.
Since it is a deadly MA, it could be a serious weapon to harm others.This is the reason why the masters didn't pass it on to whoever wants to learn. they pick the right students with the right mind.

We are Quality ppl, may not be a Quantity though. ^^

hmmm.... just Q&A myself~
post some replies, bros~

WildMan_Riot
04-24-2000, 03:43 PM
You say tibetian style is deadly. What evidence supports it?

xingyiman
04-24-2000, 05:46 PM
Does anyone know if the present Dalai Lama practises Lama Kung Fu, or any other style of Kung Fu for that matter?

lkfmdc
04-24-2000, 10:11 PM
Chinese martial arts history is full of challenge matches. However, one stands up well above all the others and can be verified because it was chronicled in the Cantonese newspapers and is still widely discussed in TCMA circles.

In Canton City at the beginning of the 20th Century, a wooden stage was erected by Wong Yan Lam and an open challenge was made. Unlike other challenges, which were limited to a set time period or set number of challenges, this one was open. In fact, it ended up lasting weeks.

Wong Yan Lam defeated 150 challengers without a single loss. Many local fighters lost in matters of SECONDS. It remains the largest and most impressive challenge in TCMA.

Wong yan Lam was a master of Lion's Roar/Lama Pai....

warrenoh
04-24-2000, 11:48 PM
WongYanLam(HuangYinLin)'s story was no joke,
it's a legend based on the truth.
Another famous master was the founder of BakHokPai(Tibetan WhiteCrane), NgSuiChong(WuSuJong). He's a 3rd generation Tibetan MA master(SingLung-ChuChiYu, WongLumHoi-NgSuiJung). When he founded a school in HK, he got into numerous challenges from various styles of local KF ppl.(including BakFangNgFu(Northern 5 tigers) WongSiuJiu) He's well-known to accept any challenges and he considered any challenge that he couldn't finish by 3 blows as a lost.
And he never lost.
This is why BakHokPai became very popular in HK with a short period of time, although it was a new foreign system.


[This message has been edited by warrenoh (edited 04-25-2000).]

04-25-2000, 03:21 AM
Warrenoh

Greetings. The last time a saw a Bak Hok master demo is back to a few years ago by Luk Chi Fu Sifu. (One of the Bak Hok Sarm Fu). He was performing the Mean Lui Jum (Needles in Cotton) and Ng Man Bill Sifu with a pole form. I'll always remember that demo as it was very impressive.
I always belief that Ng Siu Chong trained under both Chu Chi Hill and Wong Lum Hoi. Both Si Dai of Wong Yun Lam.
Can you explain the Bak Hok Gong. As I have always been interested to know this gong.
Thanks

Wilson
http://www.southernmantis.co.uk

warrenoh
04-25-2000, 07:20 AM
hi wilson.
It's my pleasure to meet a guy like u.
You seem to be a BakHokPai, are u?
or r u just interested?
If u r a BakHokPai, could u tell me who ur sifu is?

Yes, NgSuiJung DID train with ChuChiYu, but his principal teacher was WongLumHoi. After he learned all Wong could afford to him, Wong recommended him to Chu. ChuChiYu was known for his loyalty to SingLung, he stayed and took care of SingLung until the moment he passed away. He had few students. i forgot his students name at this moment, but i remember one of them got shot for political problem, and the other was famous as Haap(Knight).

BakHokSamFu-LukChiFu, KwongBonFu, ChanHokFu.

LukChiFu is one of NgSuiJung's students, he passed away a while ago by throat cancer. but his school is still very active in HK, and it's the biggest school of all BakHokPai. He was running the school in WanChai area with my sihing FanYeungJung.
NgMunFu.......... u mean the short, bald, kinda ugly guy, rite...? ^^ I dunno much about this person, but i know he used to promote KF for foreigners.
BakHokGong was created by SiTaiGung NgSuiJung
. I haven't learned this one yet. Have u watched the picture? it's an excercise for BakHok practitioner for so-called BakHok GungLik. It's one of the highest set of BakHokPai, which means it doesn't mean much for the ppl who dun reach that level. For them this would be just like a BaDuanJin(BaDoonGum).
This is how far i can say to u about BakHokGong. I advise you to ask ur sifu.

[This message has been edited by warrenoh (edited 04-25-2000).]

warrenoh
04-25-2000, 04:10 PM
Those two articles above r some evidences, that i&my relative proved that Tibetan MA is deadly. I strongly believe that i can send any of my family for the fight without a worry of losing(like Qing(Manchurian) emperors). We are Quality ppl, all of us r good fighters.
if u wanna experience that this is a deadly MA, challenge to ur local Tibetan MA sifu.

Like old saying, There's no need to talk in MA, only the fist talks.

If u happen to live in vancouver, canada. U can e-mail me. then i'll meet u.

E-Mail me, only if u r serious about this.


[This message has been edited by warrenoh (edited 04-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by warrenoh (edited 04-26-2000).]

warrenoh
04-25-2000, 04:38 PM
Sorry, I never heard Dalai Lama practiced any MA.

one of the name for Tibetan MA is Lama, and it's because of chinese monks, ppl calling it
LamaWuShu, cause it was a MA introduced by SiZang Monks.

As you hopefully know, Chinese buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism is different.
Han-Chinese buddhism is called Chan, while Tibetan buddhism is called Lama.

Do u like traditional chinese KF novels by any chance?

There r some BS in it, but read it for fun.
MatJongMuSeut(MiJongWuShu)[Tibetan MA] is always considered as the most mysterious and most deadly MA among Shaolin, Emei, WuDang...ETC. (But ShaoLin is the one who usually achieves a victory in the end, cuz they were written by Han-Chinese ppl.^^)

I advise u to think about this B4 u think about MA.


[This message has been edited by warrenoh (edited 04-26-2000).]

04-25-2000, 06:04 PM
Hi Warrenoh

No, I've never trained in Bak Hok. But it is kind of a common knowledge to know all these if you practise in HK. Luk Chi Fu esp, he is well known of his kung fu, Tit Da skills and lion dancing in CausewayBay.
Apart from him, Cheung Kwok Wah in Chun Wan is always another famous Sifu in your style.
The Bak Hok Gung with full details was published in the Bak Hok Martial Art Association Annual Magazine last yr or the year before. I shall get a copy of it thro my friends.
Thanks for the details in history.

regards

Wilson
http://www.southernmantis.co.uk

warrenoh
04-25-2000, 06:54 PM
Dear Wilson

Thnx for ur interest in BakHok and i appericiate u for identifying what style u r in.

But, this forum is for Tibetan MA ppl, and I would appreciate it, if u erase ur homepage URL.

regards

WildMan_Riot
04-27-2000, 01:53 PM
Warrenoh
i was hopeing that you would be able to discuss the methods behind pak hok to back up your claim (that it is powerful) rather than resorting to ancient myths and folk lore about masters of days gone by.

So, is pak hok powerful or is what you say simply reflects that fact that you love yourselves too much?

I get the impression that you're very into pak hok to the extent that an URL link to a southern mantis web page is enough to ruffle your feathers.

warrenoh
04-27-2000, 02:58 PM
Dear wildmanriot

Yes, i m very into Tibetan MA, and I DO believe and know that this is highly-effective MA. Just for ur reference, i work in a security business, i do the personal bodyguarding for multi-millinaire ppl from asia, and work as a doorman in the nite club, and Casino. My belief comes from my experience and my respect to my SiFus.

i read the other columns u wrote, and I can't stop thinking that u just want to fool around.
Plz do NOT disturb my forum. if u still wanna do it, take it somewhere else.
This is a friendly FORUM for those who r into Tibetan MA.

Like i said, the stories above r not ancient myths. I dun wanna argue about this, it's just a waste of time.
Again, like i said, there's no need to talk,
only the fist talks, especially for a guy like u. if u really wanna know about the fighting principle behind the Tibetan MA, u can check out the URL above.
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/9358

when u learn MA, u not only learn the skills from the masters, but also traditional manners. The masters i m with is VERY traditional, and so m i, when it comes to MA.
Example) if someone does wingchun form in Lama school, ppl there find it very offensive. Same thing, if lama guy go to hunggar school, and advertise the lama school.....
this kinda thing is considered as a challenge, and disrespect to the school.
manners..... it's all from the respect to the own system, or the other system.
MA ppl should have manners, and know how to respect others.

But, i admit i took it a bit serious about the URL thing, i kinda forgot that this was cyberspace.

Peace~ ^^

WuLinYiJia


[This message has been edited by warrenoh (edited 04-28-2000).]

04-28-2000, 03:18 AM
Warrenoh

The URL thing was never meant to be disrespect to the Bak Hok Pai. As from my previous knowledge and masters that I met in Bak Hok Pai in HK, it shows my respect to your style, and I mean no offense.
I myself is a traditional chinese that brought up in HK too. I totally agree with the martial manner and respect " Mo Duk" theory which has not been widely practise in modern days western world. It is ofcourse important to learn that, as I always stress.
The URL thing is just a kind of signature thing that I put below my name, so it isn't a advert as you said, I hope you don't mind.


regards

Wilson

Lost_Disciple
04-28-2000, 03:56 AM
Wanted to post up here before, but didn't know my lineage or even all of the names of the forms in the cirriculum. I just found my old training manual with all the info, so here goes:
My old sifu in high school studied for a couple years under a Master Chuek T Tse in Hawaii. Master Chuek studied under Ng Bing Jong. I'm not 100% sure on which forms were from which lineage- my sifu studied for 6 years in Green Dragon (5 animal shaolin), 2 years under master Chuek, some time under Sifu Vernon Rieta, and 10 years under a taichi, hsing yi teacher in Okinawa. Most of the Green Dragon forms are in mandarin, because the lineage went through Taiwan.(Shaolin->Kao Fang Hsien->Hung Wen Hsueh->SL Martin-> Ken Thomas -> my old sifu).
I'm assuming the forms with the Cantonese names are the Tibetian ones. However, this becomes difficult, taking into account that my old sifu doesn't speak chinese and may have gone with either the mandarin or cantonese pronunciation for words, depending on whether or not he knew another form with a similar name.
The forms I'm pretty sure are Tibetian include:
-Kao Da (Twisting strikes- lots of Fan Choi, looks cool)
-Ji Wy (Chicken form- heard it's actually Choi li fut, really nice form)
-Chuek Kune (Chuek family fist, aka 1000 backfists, heard the nickname is fitting)
-Siu Mui Fa (Little plum Flower)
-Mui Fa Cheong (Plum Flower posts)
-Lohan Sao (Buddha Palm, one of my fav' sets, eventhough I only learned the first 7 moves)
-Tet Tsin (Iron Wire, definitely different than the Hung Gar one- there's 1 whooping noise in the middle when you do a 1 legged squat, 1 arm straight up w/2 fingers extended)

The mandarin ones from Green Dragon include:
-Liu Quan (6 fists, aka 6 power- the basic 6 crane punches)
-Yee Bo Hao (Single stepping crane- one of my favorite forms to date)
-Shee Hao (Snake and Crane, the note says "Ta Hao Chung Kuo Chen")
-Tiow Ba Fung Dao (Circular and turning blade of 8 winds)
-Yin Hao Dao (Silver crane knives- basically single stepping crane with butterfly knives)

Can anybody help me sort through this mess?
Do any of these forms resemble any Tibetian forms?
-I could probably contact my old sifu, to find out exactly which forms he learned from Master Chuek, if need be.

I'd really appreciate it if anybody could offer any help, thanks!

warrenoh
04-28-2000, 08:03 AM
Lost Disciple.

The cantonese forms u know is NOT a tibetan system. but, in my opinion, i think those forms are mixtures of southern forms(mostly ChoyLeiFaht or jow ga).

The mandarin forms r NOT a tibetan system either, it sounds like Fujian WhiteCrane, which is popular in taiwan.

I could be wrong about this, please check with ur sifu.


[This message has been edited by warrenoh (edited 04-28-2000).]

WildMan_Riot
04-28-2000, 03:47 PM
Warrenoh

You said "only fist talk" I personally believe that typing with fingers is much more effective than punching up a keyboard.

I did have a look at your URL. Hop Gar does sound impressive for what it claims to deliver. Could you describe your training progam for example what do you do in a typical Hop Gar class?

warrenoh
04-29-2000, 01:47 AM
Dear WildManRiot

'Fist talks' also means, if u have time to
BS, go practice punching even one more time.
that will help ur KF, not ur mouth or fingers typing the keyboard.

What do we do in the typical class?
Let me ask you, what do u do in the typical class?

This is my answer for u, think until u figure this out.

1.There's no such thing as a secret. 2.practice makes one perfect.
3.one has to sacrifice something for something else.
4.one with honest mind will get the true essence.
5.every KF starts from basic training, without solid foundation, it's like the tree with no root.

keep these 5 in your mind, and do it, then one will be really strong.

Again, Everything starts from the basics. and that what we mostly do in the class.

[This message has been edited by warrenoh (edited 04-29-2000).]

WildMan_Riot
04-29-2000, 06:15 PM
Warrenoh

Yes I talk too much, just a keyboard warior.

What are some of the basics that you do in training?

The reason why I'm asking is because, your strain of Pak Hok is very rare and I'm sure there will be heaps of people out there who also would be very curious to find out more.

Look forward to your reply.

warrenoh
04-30-2000, 04:19 PM
Dear wildmanriot

Fundamental movement of Tibetan MA is waist twist. Tibetan MA is the most aggressive MA i've ever experienced. we say good offense is the best defense. we don't practice blocks that much, compared to other styles.
actually, we seldom or never block.
let's say if someone punches, then we just turn waist, which means we evade and punch at the same time, with steps if necessary.

i'll explain you about 4 fundamental principle.
1.Chan - we try not to fight, however, if we do, we fight with full power, until the fight is over.
2.Sim - evade and hit at the same time.
3.Cheung - offend continuously for most devastating results
4.Jit - train enough to stay a step ahead of your opponent.

there's an old saying.

However, without solid basic training, the fighting principle is just what comes out of mouth.

First of all, one's gotta have power, the power doesn't necessarily mean size of the person, it includes physical power, as well as mental power. Training forms without this, is nothing but dancing.

The foundation must be SOLID, QUALITY is better than quantity.

the common basics we practice are

waist twist, Stance training(Internal Training), punches, kicks, claws, light body exercise........

It's hard to explain basic exercises by typing.
i advise u to visit the club in ur town.

NiDa, AnBuDan, AnDaNi, DangBuZu
if u hit, i dun block, i hit u, can't stop me

WildMan_Riot
04-30-2000, 06:54 PM
Warrenoh

Do you do much sparring or contact work to develop your timing? I'm sure you're paccking alot of power in your punches with the full waist twist, however, if your timing is a little off or the opponent's attack is coming at a slightly different angle to what you anticipate, waist twist may not be enough to evade the attack. Is this a fair comment?

Lost_Disciple
04-30-2000, 10:45 PM
warrenoh:
I think your assessment sounds fair. I just thought with a name (as my teacher remembered it and wrote in the manual) like "ng bing jong"- that they may be related somehow to the other "ng" of the Tibetian system. I know "ng" is a famous cantonese last name though, so I don't expect too much.

As far as the other crane being Fukien I somewhat agree. I've stated in other posts on other boards that there were 3 styles of crane taught at that school. The first two I listed in my other reply. The last one came from the hsing yi, tai chi teacher. His wife's last name is Hokama. He took it as his own last name. Hokama is a very famous Goju Ryu family. Goju Ryu is based on Fujian crane, I think specifically from the Fuzhou locality (I've got documentation on it). The hsing yi, tai chi teacher learned in Taiwan (which was originally populated by people from Fujian- what a lot of people call "Taiwanese" is actually Fukienese). He taught a form called "Fukien shee hau" or "Fukien snake and crane". Interestingly enough, this form, mechanically is the same as the highest level Goju Ryu Form. The difference is, the way he teaches it, has a lot of fluidity. It's not stiff at all. It's done in a traditional kung fu manner, and eventhough it contains the same movements as the Goju Ryu form, it ends up looking totally different.

My point for that long description, is that the forms that were Green Dragon (the ones with the mandarin names), were not only passed from the Fukien temple (southern shaolin), they were done with many of the same techniques as this Fukien Shee Hau form. I think you may be right; that the Green Dragon crane forms are probably from the Fukien crane system.

I would really like to see real Tibetian White Crane someday.

warrenoh
05-01-2000, 04:29 AM
Dear wildmanriot,

No, we dun do as much sparring as MuayThai, TaeKwondo.......,
However, there's an EYE training, and 2-man excercises, a lot of contact training, not on the beginning level.
two KF brothers of mine r NorthAmerica Kickboxing champions in 1970's, one of their students r champion too.
These guys always say the power to be a champion were from the basic training we do, including CONTACT training.

wildmanriot, i m now pretty sure that u r
pretty novice in MA without a good sifu, or u r just young.
Why dun u check out MA school in ur town?
I hope u find the style u want.

[This message has been edited by warrenoh (edited 05-01-2000).]

WildMan_Riot
05-01-2000, 06:03 PM
Dear warrenho,

It's great to be able to speak to someone as knowledgable like you. in pak hok, there are the 7 main punches. "Jin" being the straight punch and circular punches for the others. Do you have the same punches in Lama? How would you use those swinging punches, they seem rather predictable? what do you do in your contact training?

warrenoh
05-02-2000, 03:34 AM
wildmanriot

Lama & BakHok r the identical style with different names. it's like learning the same MA with different sifus. every sifu has his own aspect.
there r 8 basic punches in both bakhok and lama. Some bakhok ppl train with 7 punches in the basic, without the only short-hand-uppercut punch. However, in the form there r all the 8 punches.

I can't explain you about contact training.

because,
1. my writing skill is not good enough to explain them in the cyberspace.
2. U r NOT my student, i see no reason to explain u about the details.
3. U r NOT even a member of BakHok.

I know u r KF enthusiast with a lot of curiosity.
i wish u the best.


[This message has been edited by warrenoh (edited 05-02-2000).]

WildMan_Riot
05-02-2000, 05:38 PM
Hi Warrenoh

Let's stick to generalities then. What range of attack are those full arm swings used for? they seem very powerful with full hip twist. Do you view the short hand upper cut as a modification of the long arm upper cut "pow"? and do you modify all long arm techniques into short arm techniques?

Paul Skrypichayko
05-03-2000, 01:33 AM
Something that just might help clarify things...

There are two distinct crane styles. One being Bak Hok Pai, from Tibet, and the other one, Bak Hok Kuen, more from Shaolin. Similar names, but the kung fu is very different.

Do any of you white crane lovers know the story about "Bak Hok Sam Fu"? (the three Fu's of White Crane).

WildMan_Riot
05-03-2000, 06:39 PM
paul

When you refer to Pak Hok Kuen, are you refering to the branch that originated from Fuijian in southern china? If so can you explain to us how it is different from the Hop Gar system?

Paul Skrypichayko
05-04-2000, 04:41 AM
I do not practice either of these martial arts, so I'm only talking from what I have read and been told.

Bak Hok Pai is the tibetan martial art. They focus more on cultivation.

Bak Hok Kuen is the fukien (fujian) version from shaolin. The focus more on the forms like sleeping crane, calling crane, eating crane, etc.

I don't know the actual differences in fighting and training.

[This message has been edited by Paul Skrypichayko (edited 05-04-2000).]

WildMan_Riot
05-04-2000, 01:24 PM
Paul,

I don't think it originated from shaolin but it may have become associated with shaolin because it was being taught there. But that doesn't really matter anyway as it is quite debatable where a style came from due to so much mixing and changes over the course of history. It is probably a steady evolution over the course of time that is linked to the development of a number of styles in that geographic region in the same period rather than a revolutionary idea developed by one or a small group of people.

Anyway, I would like to ask you if you would be able to share your knowledge regarding the concepts contained in sleeping crane, eating crane etc.

Paul Skrypichayko
05-05-2000, 12:03 AM
Wildman,

Good point you made. People are too concerned about the little details. It doesnt really matter where it came from, who practiced it, etc. It is just classified as being in the family of shaolin.

I know that Yang Jwing Ming practices sleeping crane, eating crane, etc, but he may also practice tibetan crane as well.

My master learned a little bit of that same crane style when he was younger in Hong Kong (just to give him a different perspective). He just commented about its effectiveness, good training methods, and how it is so **** unique compared to more common southern "shaolin type" martial arts (hung gar, choy li fut, wing chun, etc.)

warrenoh
05-05-2000, 03:28 AM
Tibetan WhiteCrane is comepletely different with Fujian WhiteCrane.

As u can tell from the name, the areas which they r originated r way too far. they have no relations at all.

BakHokSamFu- KwongBonFu, LukChiFu, ChanHokFu

KwongBonFu is my SiGung, LukChiFu is a KF brother of KBF, ChanHokFu is a my Si-Bak(uncle)

They r all famous and well-respected masters in BakHokPai.

they are called BakHokSamFu, cuz their name all ends with same character(Fu).

P.S i've heard of YangJwingMing, but i never heard that he trained in Tibetan BakHokPai, i wonder who he trained under.

WildMan_Riot
05-05-2000, 06:26 AM
Paul,

What does your instructor train in besides crane? Are the names you've mentioned "sleeping crane", "eating crane" etc different branches of the crane style or are they different concepts of the crane style? In general terms, what are the combat tactics of a crane practitioner?

darkie71
05-09-2000, 12:18 PM
Hi there, I've been practicing Bak Hok for a little over 10 years now. My lineage: Wong Lam-hoi, Nhg Siu-chung, Chan Hak-fu, John Cole, me. My sifu also studied under a man named George Long (who has somewhat controversial MA history,) and Leung Quan in San Francisco chinatown. George Long was also student of Chan Hak-fu I believe. One of my MA uncles, who studied under Leung Quan said that George Longs KF was not real Bak Hok, but rather Hop Ga; this is utterly ridiculous to me since they are just different names for the same art. Wong Yan-lam's senior student (Wong Hon-wing) adopted the name Hop Ga, then Wong Lam-hoi's senior student (Nhg Siu-chung) adopted the name White Crane. Wong Yan-lam and Wong Lam-hoi were brothers who had the same teacher (Sing Lung Lo Jung,) therefore it's the same MA. ANYWAY, I feel that I must agree with everything that Warren said in regards to effectiveness of Bak Hok; from my own experience (though it would seem, not nearly as extensive as Warren's) I have consistently myself overwhelmed and destroyed opponents using the techiques of White Crane, as well as witnessed a few "hard-core" knock-outs by my Si-hing. I have experience and/or knowledge of several other MA systems (chinese and otherwise) and of the all, Bak Hok is by far one of the most powerful that I've seen; of course it does depend on the practioner. I must say, though, Bak Hok has historically always produced excellent, effective and efficient fighters.

Fu Manchu
05-09-2000, 03:19 PM
Hi

Let me share with you my training routine in Pak Hok I have practiced Pak Hok for a number of years. We commence training by doing push ups and various stretching warm-up exercises. The we drill repetitively in the basic 7 punches. Our master may call a student to the back of the hall to work with him on his Zin with hand pads. We may then do some form work before going on to 2 person training.

The 2 person training involves the students standing in the circle where one student will nominate to be the one who stands in the middle. A student from the circumfrence may call out and charge forward throwing a Zin punch. The defending student would react by stepping back and doing a circular block before throwing 2 zin punches at the attacker. The attacker would remain motionless until the defender has finished his punches.

There's another exercise where the attacker would throw a zin and the defender would side step and pull the attacker off balance. The attacker would allow himself to be pulled but will do a jumping spin to regain his balance.

In Pak Hok, we don't spar because our techniques are too dangerous and powerful. We are trained not to hold back our techniques.

I will share with you the secrets of Soft-crane, short stick, arm conditioning exercises and long range techniques in the forms in my next posts.

Now for the interesting part on how we train for competitions. The secret is to overwhelm the opponent with long zins. At close range we would use short zins. (that's because those downward overhead hit are disallowed in some tornerments). When we throw a zin, we use the full waist twist which is the core concept of simultanous attack and defense.

There was a competition when my brother went up against a kick boxer. He came in with zins but the kick boxer side stepped and punched him in the head. Total KO. I guess the kick boxer just got lucky that day becuase Pak Hok is such a deadly style.

warrenoh
10-11-2000, 02:55 AM
Chan HokFu, probably is the most famous white crane master for his battle with NgGungYee in macao, 1953. He is one of BakHokSamFu(i mentioned about this on reply above)

George Long? i've never heard of him, or seen him
in annual magazine from PakHokAthleticAssotiation.

LeungQuan and his 2 brothers(blood), trained under KwongBonFu's club in KowLoon for a number of years, before they came to SF, united states.

10-12-2000, 04:16 AM
i've seen pak hok fight they swing too much, do you guys walk aroud your opponent with arms stretched out?
if you do get hit buy a swinging arm you will definetly go down.

peace

Black Jack
10-12-2000, 05:58 PM
Man I am going to get flamed but what else is new...

I am sorry Fu Manchu but if you do not practice sparring at all, than you are wasting your time and in a real life confrontation you could end up beat to **** or even worse dead.

When people mention such things as we do not spar because our systems techniques are very deadly or that their static training partners "let" themselves get thrown or attacked in a drill, than all you do is REINFORCE the basic fact that what you call traditional kung fu practice just creates dancers and not fighters.

All pretty moves and no determination...so very common.

Your sifu should teach you about the difference between self perfection and self peservation.

If you guys do not spar or have any "alive" training than your basics must be horrible and I hope that you find a realistic school that cares about its students survival in a world where anything can happen.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Regards

cha kuen
10-13-2000, 04:33 AM
Many old school sifus from san francisco's Chinatown recognize George Long as a fake. Long learned kung fu for 3 months and opened up a school. None of the sifus respected him back in the days. He was more of a joke to them. He made his $$$ during the kung fu boom and moved to Hollywood. I think he's a chiropractor today. George Long's students used to sparr with sifu WJM's students as well.


Chan Hok Fu?

Is he the one that fought the famous Wu style tai chi master? I have that fight on tape and it was a horrible fight. It looked like girls slapping each other. Sorry, I don't mean to disrespect your styles etc. I think white crane is a great style. I have the fight on tape if anyone wants to see it.

molum_jr
10-13-2000, 08:29 AM
Bryant Fong, SF wushu coach and a Law Horn stylist from WJM. Bryant is also a traditional white crane practitioner. He is also the nephew of Quentin Fong (lineage from Luk, Chi-Fu via Ng, Siu-Chung). Bryant Fong has the distinction of learning from Quentin Fong, the Leung Bros. (first two brothers of three), and George Long. I am not sure if he learned from William Siu also. Raymond Wong(sp?) from the Avenues was also teaching at that time, but his white crane was a single-stanced style of white crane/lama. As an educator, Bryant is opened to all thoughts of learning and intructions. He once mentioned that George Long practised Red Sand Palm and could red palm marks on your body after striking an opponent. I never asked about Long's white crane proficiency though. William Siu, owner of the now defunct White Crane Supplies Store on Golden Gate Ave & Market St, SF use to tell me that Long knows nothing. William Siu taught Michael Staples some white crane, I believe.

George Long is now an acupuncturist catering to the Hollywood Stars and doesn't even bother to teach. I don't know about his students, but a notable one who still teaches out on 28th and Geary is Ron Dong. He kicks ass...seriously. Gary Fung, another student of George's (Read an old issue of Inside Kung-Fu), and a bunch of his classmates opened up the Jung/Mei school of white crane in the seventies. It produced many proficient students w/chin, pow, cup, bin trademark punches. Ron Dong is also a student of Chan, Hoc-Fu from what I have heard.

I don't know about the rest of his students.It was one of George Long's student that badly beat a Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut stylist three decades ago. The CLF guy is now the grandmaster of several franchises thru out the world and resides in the Bayarea.

Cha Kuen is correct about how the chinatown kwoons use to view George Long. It is ironic how all the white crane sifu's to pan George in the old days, but now George is filty rich and living it up and the rest are living on meager pensions (if any).

As far as what BlackJack has mentioned, white crane does have sparring. The white crane boys in HK sorta like to fight...alot. A classic issue of Inside KungFu (70's first volume) has white crane comparing fighting techniques against wing chun. Guess who they were: Quentin Fong and his good friend Ben Der. It seems that our sifu's were more hip and uninhibited in comparing and improving their fighting techniques. Beg or borrow or xerox that issue...it is a classic eye opener.

Lastly...Hooray, hooray...the EDIT function now works! Thanks KFO Administrator for your time, effort, and devotion.

[This message was edited by molum_jr on 10-14-00 at 01:52 AM.]

cha kuen
10-13-2000, 11:47 AM
What issue of Inside Kung Fu discussed white crane vs. wing chun ? I am familiar with Ben Derr. I think his wc skills are very good since he learned from Ken Chung. Do you have a copy of that issue? If it's not too much trouble , I'd like to see it. Email me at

pkduong@ucsd.edu

thank you .

cha kuen
10-13-2000, 11:55 AM
molum_jr

Have you heard of sifu Leung Gum Chiew? He is a white crane sifu. Don't get him confused with Leung Kwun. Leung Gum Chiew teaches a few people at his house. He is a full time head cook at some famous Chinese restaurant. I remember that Bryant Fong used to train with WJM. He then moved to China to study wushu. I never knew he trained white crane as well. Fong teaches the UC Berkeley wushu today. I heard that he teaches tai chi in a few community centers as well. Did you watch the kung fu demonstration when Lau Bun appeared? He was present but did not perform. I also heard from a student of Jew Leong that Bruce Lee was stirring up some trouble with CLF students. Lee eventually found out that it was Lau Bun's lineage students when he ran into Lau Bun himself. Lee bowed to Lau Bun out of respect and left. Did you hear about that?

warrenoh
11-01-2000, 08:07 AM
It's amazing how ppl modified the system's history....
some white crane master didn't even got bai-see by NgSiuChung or his student.
he wasn't even qualified to join NgSiuChung's funeral. GodSon? yeah rite.... NgSiuChung's real students used to call u taijai~ taijai~.....
he treated u like a cute little prince.
u used to be called black tiger, because that was name of the basketball team that u were playing for
u said u wanted to continue learning BakHokKyun,
so NgSiuChung sent the letter to one of his students who was in canton at that time.
NgSiuChung asked u one day, 'since u learned so much from him, why dun u get BaiSee from him?'
HuHu....

some old generations didn't even bother to call u SiHing or SiDai, they called u Mr.****.
Y? because U didn't get BAISEE by anybody.

One day, u forgot the movements of LawHonKyun....
u asked a member of PakHokAthleticAssociation, to help u.......

Funny!! How u r acting after GrandMaster's death!!

U Know ALL THIS!!!!!

old generations r passing away.....
But wait.... not all of them passed away yet.
I can provide the evidences that can support what i m saying, in front of all the bakhokpai ppl, not the innocent caucasian ppl, who believed what u were saying.
If you can't prove what u r saying...... u better not.

truth will come out.

p.s my sifu's daughter doesn't know any kung fu,
but is she still a member of BakHokPai, thou...?
she's kinda cute thou.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

cha kuen
11-01-2000, 11:50 AM
Warrenoh,

I emailed you several times. Please respond when you have time, thanks

warrenoh
11-01-2000, 12:00 PM
like i said in e-mail, we can actually meet up.

i don't have VHS tape i can send u.

until then, take care.

P.S if u wonder about the movement of Lama or BakHok, it shouldn't be that different from the tape u watched(David Ross). or visit the club in ur town.

[This message was edited by warrenoh on 11-02-00 at 04:05 AM.]

mer
11-01-2000, 02:53 PM
I enjoyed your posts regarding Tibetan Martial arts – BakHok.
I am currently in the process of establishing a Tibetan Martial Arts Organization in Europe
(see http://www.1freespace.com/sport/datma/ for more details).

It is useful to understand the definition of "Tibetan" systems (this can range from indigenous traditions through to systems carrying specific a link with either a Tibetan location or person).
Although Hop-Gar (Tibetan White Crane) is the most well known, I am personally more interested in those systems that contain a core of Tibetan cultural knowledge such as Dorjee Lam, Vadha and Lungta - which contain elements of Bon, Dzogchen, or Buddhist concepts (as the Chinese Internal Systems have a relationship with Taoism).

As part of the organizational framework DATMA are interested in building an international community to propagate the valuable and fascinating traditions of an endangered culture.

Mer

Buby
11-01-2000, 07:13 PM
Cha Kuen- If possible, I would like a copy of the fight. Can you please email me with details on how I could obtain a copy. mystic__11206@yahoo.com

Thanks in advance

Buby

darkie71
11-26-2000, 07:49 AM
I't has been a while since I did that posting regarding myu lineage and overall view on pak hok/tibetan ma, so I was quite surprised at the number of responses that it generated when I did finally get around to checking the forum again; especially in regards to all the comments that I received in regards to George Long. My sifu was classmates with Ron Dong (he's my si-bot) and also studied under Chun Hak-fu with him as well, and I can personally attest to si-bot Dongs fighting skills; like someone said on the forum Ron Dong is a definite hard ass. He's got freakin' iron forearms built like **** Popeye!!

darkie71
11-26-2000, 07:59 AM
Now, I WASN'T HERE DURING THE 70'S, but I have heard many stories in regards the George Long's standing in the ma world during this time. William Siu also once told me: "George Long,... the man know's nothing about White Crane!" OH WELL!! I mean who really know's,... I've heard similar stories about Quentin Fong,... that he used to forget forms in the middle of class and have to refer to "cheat sheet." Frankly, I could care less cuz: 1) I wasn't there to confirm nor refute these claims and 2) If he can fight with it does it really matter? Ron Dong only teaches 6 forms,....anybody in the know wanna say he can't fight?

warrenoh
11-26-2000, 12:49 PM
like i said, i never seen him in the annual magazine from PakHokAthleticAssociation in 1970's.

that's all i said.

P.S what's his chinese name?

darkie71
11-27-2000, 11:11 PM
Warren, please forgive me if I sounded hostile or disrespectful towards you; it definitly was not my intention. I was only making a statement,... not any sort of accusation. From what I have read from you on the forum Warren, I can tell that you have a great amount of knowledge in tibetan MA. I, like yourself, have huge amount of interest in tibetan MA,... but as you can imagine, there is not a whole lot of written information available on the subject. Everything that I know, I've had to piece together myself, and has taken many years for me to gain any kind of cohesive lineage and/or historical accounts of where MA comes from. Please understand that all that I have learned on this forum has been tremendously helpfull and encouraging in regards to my search for the true history of my White Crane. Note to molum jr: could you e-mail me at darkie71@hotmail.com, I have questions that I would like ask you. You seem to have some intimate knowledge of what really went on in Pak Hok world during the 70's. My sihing used to be on SF wushu team with Bryant Fong during early 80's, when Maggie from beijing team was coaching; he knocked out WJM's senior student w/spinning backfist during competition!! Molum jr, r u student of Bryan

warrenoh
03-25-2001, 10:09 AM
Mr.**** is a respectable figure, who promoted bakhokpai internationally.
it was actually his students, who just wanted to put themselves higher in the bakhok lineage.

Again, Mr.**** is a respectable figure. His fighting skill is high, since he trained hard in bakhokpai manner under KwongBonFu, who's 4th generation grandmaster of bakhokpai.
i doubt anyone will argue with KwongBonFu's authority in BakHokPai. A lot of sifus, who claimed student of NgSiuChung or even real students of NgSiuChung, actually learned mostly from KwongBonFu.

i m NOT trying to say who's better or higher rank, here. it is the TRUTH.

again, it's not the sifus themselves who r changing the history, it's their students.

i respect them for respecting their own sifus, but Truth is the Truth.
simply just ask old generations, whom u might call as SiGung or SiTaiGung.
KwongBonFu had been a shadow of NgSiuChung, and he got the leadership from NgSiuChung-JeungMunYun.
This was on the Article in HK martial arts newspaper several yrs before NgSiuChung's sudden death.
At that time NgShunTing was just a young girl who don't know anything about martial arts, and still don't. It was KwongBonFu and NgSiuChung's wife, who was in charge of NgSiuChung's funeral.

The Old respectable masters i met simply respect NgShunTing since she's a daughter of NgSiuChung, definitely not because her martial ability or knowlidge in BakHokPai.(Blood Family is a Blood family, and Martial Family is separate... :) plus BakHok is NOT family inheritant MA.)

this history might not seem to enhance ur GungFu, but i just want to get the history straight. Martial Arts is not talking, but acting.

i hope everyone in BakHokPai training hard and get well.

P.S I accept any PHYSICAL challenge from those who would argue with this history.

Tvebak
03-26-2001, 07:59 AM
Just a funny story i would like to add.
A couple of years ago a white crane teacher came to denmark, he started out teaching in the biggest kungfu school in his town, but because of the competition from the other styles his classes was not popular.
Most people dident like the training, too hard.
Now he is teaching in the local capoeira school, he has only a few dedicated students.
There is no need for him to keep anything secret, the nature of his training makes sure that the ones who stays in his class are serious.
Every time im in his town i drop by for a couple of hours of capoeira and white crane.

warrenoh
06-07-2001, 01:33 PM
no need to talk for ****'s sake.

go challenge ur bakhok sifu, and get beat up or something,

****in' ****, u don't know any **** about kung fu.

no need to ****in explain to idiot like u.

come to vancouver, and beat me up, then u can say bakhok is ****.

shut the **** up for ****'s sake, if u don't have guts to challenge bakhok.

p.s rn't u that idiot who ****ed around in this forum b4?

HopGar
06-07-2001, 02:43 PM
I only read half the first page of this thread- but I'm a Hop Gar guy. Also on the geocities site, their info about Ku Chi Wai studying in San Fran is way off, my sifu learned while in Hong Kong I believe.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

Crimson Phoenix
06-07-2001, 02:47 PM
for those who wonder, Yang Jwing Ming never trained Tibetan crane, only fujian white crane...he does mention Lama in his books though, but always states that it is very different from fujian bai he both in origin and development...his style is the ancestral crane or zhong he (also known as trembling/shaking crane) , but what he is now teaching is a personal interpetation of it (hmm, isn't any sifu teaching a personal interpretation?? that's a good question hehehe).
For example in the YMAA curriculum, he doesn't teach the individual forms he knows, but rather forms he made by aggregating 2 or 3 traditionnal forms...
his master was Chen Gin Gsao,student of white crane legend Gin Shao Feng.
Here is for what I know...

Phoenix

HopGar
06-07-2001, 03:03 PM
my schools webpage www.hopgar.com (http://www.hopgar.com) has my lineage posted. Actually we can't do full contact sparring either mainly b/c thos overhead punches can litterally smash someone's skull in. We train full force however.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

diego
06-07-2001, 03:38 PM
I live in n.vancouver...Under hopga sifu ng-yim-ming i can cliam a odd lineage.
by court of law the guy who showed me some hopga
aint alowed near me.....his teacher learnt from ng sifu.
Do you have any classes in vancouver. :)

dubj
06-07-2001, 11:50 PM
I was just wondering if there are any other popular tibetan styles other than those already mentioned. One that I am really interested in is called wu chuan chi tao. It is only taught by the international green dragon society as far as I know. On their website they say that their style is of tibetan origen. It is composed of 8 main animal styles, a few internal styles, chi kung, and tibetan yoga. It also seems to have many taoist practices and philosophies. The main headquarters are in hong kong and chicago. It seems that some of you are pretty familiar with the tibetan ma community in hong kong. Please let me know if you know about this group or style of fighting

Ego_Extrodinaire
06-08-2001, 03:10 AM
Warren Ho

Actually, the bak hok Sifu and i are good friends. He knows that his style is no match for the Northern Systems. He knows that Pak Hok is largely untested (as Kong has correctly pointed out in Hop Gar - they don't spar).

So these Pak Hop and Hop Gar (they) people live in a dream land that they can smash people's skulls in. Note: the skull is a very tough bone and those swings would sooner damage your own hands. They don't realize that it isn't the "full force" that matters but the timing. Those large swings will hit j@ck sh1t because they're just so d@mn predictable.

Warren, you once again have knocked me out not with your deadly Jins (Chin Chow Choy) but with your foul mouth

Maximus Materialize!

HopGar
06-10-2001, 09:16 PM
Sure ego, whatever you say. Actually we started doin sparring, but I unfortunately miss it because of my job. Take that a$. You think punches are telegraphed, eh? when you get slammed by one, then come back and and talk.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

BAI HE
06-10-2001, 10:52 PM
Actually, The White Crane style are held in high regard. At one time it was the preferred style of
the Chinese Emperor's Guard.
I find it rather dismissive to blanket any fighting
art as "Useless". In your experience perhaps it was useless. In order not to continually offend other parties here, you could paraphrase your responses with the standard IMO.
It's never to late to be polite.

warrenoh
06-11-2001, 02:02 AM
just leave this forum please, u won't get a lesson from the internet.

warrenoh
06-11-2001, 02:17 AM
diego, no, I don't have a pakhokpai class.

i only teach privately by appointment- mostly kickboxing, TKD, and weapons depending on what the student wants to learn.

diego, we can meet up, i live in downtown.

e-mail me.

Ego_Extrodinaire
06-11-2001, 04:44 PM
Warrenho,

Why are you teaching kick boxing when you are a Tibetian lover. Or did I misunderstand you? You Do kickboxibng but you have a Tibetian lover or is a Tibetian lover. This would make sense because if you are a Tibetian Martial Arts lover - it won't.

Think about it, am I playing with your mind?

Maximus Materialize!

Tsui
06-11-2001, 08:26 PM
Tibetan White Crane is NO JOKE! Although the school I train at is based mainly in the Northern Shaolin tradition, we train in various arts-internal and external. Among these are a short TBWC form and MANY two person drills. These have done more for me than any other external exercises we've done. Our Sifu is very respectful of TBWC, in fact one of his "brothers" under his Sifu came from Tibet and he called him "teacher" as well... of course this man would always box his ears and say "Brother... Master Chi is your teacher"

Sifu demonstrated some of these techniques on one of the instructors, this guy is a good 8 or 9 inches taller than our Sifu and at least 75lbs heavier.. he didn't see where the techniques were coming from I guarantee.

Remember, the forms you see (in any art) are just a frame work, like scales and chord in music. It's what you do with them that counts.

That waist twisting, punching out fore and aft with both arms looks like a long range technique, but if done right at close range you won't see it coming until your feet are already off the ground!

darkie71
06-29-2001, 08:45 AM
I don't have much to say,... save that if you come to my White Crane school talkin' that crap, I guarantee you'll most definitely leave with your freakin' limbs in a **** cast. I got your freakin' "non-crushing, fantasy fueled techniques," right here buddy!! Your so full of ****!! You freakin' bring your ass right down to San Fran,... 28th and Geary,.... and we'll see what you got. Or is it just your "Ego" talkin'??

Ego_Extrodinaire
06-29-2001, 12:22 PM
Hey Darkie,

Let's put it this way, i have practiced the hopgar lama for a long time and i am well away of the capabilities of the system. So ifyou intend to have a guest instructor like my self come down to give you a lecture- I'll be happy to do so.

I even have signed pictures of me and the Dali Lama

Maximus Materialize!

Stumblefist
07-01-2001, 06:54 PM
I guess i have to study up here. Looks like youse guys are talking about my white crane which i thought was virtually unknown.
Twisting, angling, fast, fluid, high-low, short-long, overhead swings and ever returning punches with full body weight in the puches. Block them? well that is what the first one (usually lead downward) is for , to take care of your block or knock you sideways so there is nothing in the way of that FINAL swing. It's the most powerful punch there is. Could grab or angle the oppenent's punch and come down with a shortened swing at 45 degrees.
Someone questioned as to what part of the hand could be hitting with: Instructions- first make an ordinary karate-type fist with the thumb under the first two knuckles: then pop that thumb to the side pressing against the flesh of your index finger. This is sometimes refered to as a "tiger-fist". Then on the swing down, say the temple, you hit with the knuckles or the knuckles and palm simultaneously on the palm side of your hand. Guys go down with one hit with this. It can be your final knockout safter a successive series.
On a cross hand grab, you hold onto him pull him off balance and use the 45 degree swing or attack with grab-other hand swing.
Also of course you can use the hammer-fist but that's standard. Also on a downward 45 swing, open hand slap is effective. Because i got the twisting deep inside my body i can use my open hands like whips, lead or reverse. I cracked some ribs once and another time sent a guy to his knees with the lead open-handed whip. For the knockdown, i did lead straight, vertical down reverse which gave me the opening for a thumb-point-down back of the hand lead hand whip to the side of the head.
ook have to study up on this before i post again.

HopGar
07-02-2001, 05:00 AM
Sorry ego, you lose once again. So takeit elsewhere b/c we dont wanna hear it.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

Gum Gong
07-03-2001, 06:36 PM
I train T.White Crane,and Hopgar,and I can assure you that they are in the "suprerior" art class.Also if you train either one you will not fully understand them until you have done at least
10,000 repititions of your techniques.

10,000 repitions
1,000,000 repitions
Trained not tough

Ego_Extrodinaire
07-05-2001, 03:54 PM
stumble fist,

yes I know, I've trained in those movements as you've described and the 45 degrees downward hit is very effetive especially because of the arc acrtion that can cover more area than a straight punch.

However, white crane is just so basic compared to something like pi qua. This system deals with up and downward hits and the slapping action of loose arms. if you can find a good instructor - you may find the style to be interesting.

Kong Zho wong:

Lose what - no skin off my nose. why are you so fiesty?

Maximus Materialize!

BAI HE
07-05-2001, 04:36 PM
Most punches in Bak Hok cover all three ranges in a sweeping full powered fashion. That's just the basics though.
How many arts teach a basic technique covering all three ranges? This would be considered "advanced" in some systems.

White Crane is NO NONSENSE, simple, direct and aggressive in its basics. While you ponder more intricate responses to aggression...

Never mind. Enjoy playing with your transformer collection.

Peace.

Gum Gong
07-06-2001, 12:02 AM
White crane does teach all ranges,starting with long range.The thing that makes white a superior art is that it is very open ended, and has a perfect training progression.Once you've done your 10,000's of the basic strengths and basic footwork patterns the rest just falls into place.Techniques are usless unless trained along with the five principles:breathwork,bridge,focus,centering,and timing,and it's these same principles that make the techniques deadly.

10,000 repitions
1,000,000 repitions
Trained not tough

Ego_Extrodinaire
07-08-2001, 01:58 PM
Repeating the same basic moves 10,000 times won't make you a beter fighter. it would just make you better at doing those moves in that particular position. Plus it's very boring. Only people who are inherently boring or have a personality as interesting as a piece of card board will subject themselves to this sort of training day after day, week afer week and year after year.

If you repeat the moves 1,000,000 times, you're joints will probably fall off.

possibly you're right - i'll probably would stick with playing with transformers - at least hat would be more fun. you probably find that too. As an analogy - transform them a 1,000 times their joints might fall off.

But seriosuly speaking, I am all for emphasising the basics but with white crane, the appraoch is over simplistic, doesn't recognise the inherent complexities in combat.

Maximus Materialize!

BAI HE
07-08-2001, 07:10 PM
There is nothing complex about fighting.
Your basics will save you more often than not.

Gum Gong
07-09-2001, 12:28 PM
Hello Ego,
Obviously you have never trained the way I do and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.It sounds like to me, that you need this type of training more than anyone,because it makes you a better person,and I'm sure you have a miserable life,judging from the way you put other people down for your own self precious mind.Anyways.....High reps are the beginning of muscle,tendon change,and marrow washing.Plus they in grain techniques into you,that way when you fight you can fight in style instead of training an art people have lived and died trying to create and then kickboxing when you fight.High reps are very boring at first,and you will suffer emotionally,and physicaly but you will suffer in training and never in life.Ego I appologize for my comments.

10,000 repitions
1,000,000 repitions
Trained not tough

Ego_Extrodinaire
07-10-2001, 04:12 PM
"Obviously you have never trained the way I do and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about."

Yes I did - for just a little while and then those people who had the right sense like me got bored and left. The dead beats remained!

"It sounds like to me, that you need this type of training more than anyone,because it makes you a better person,"

Why would getting bored make me or anyone else for that matter a better person.

"and I'm sure you have a miserable life,judging from the way you put other people down for your own self precious mind."

I don't put people down. It is the things people say that put themselves down once their idiocy is exposed.

"Anyways.....High reps are the beginning of muscle,tendon change,and marrow washing."

Nooooooo. i don't think white crane training is a precursor to bone marrow transplant. Plus you need your tendons changed. Geeeez your body seems to be in a rather bad shape.

"Plus they in grain techniques into you,that way when you fight you can fight in style"

Doing many raps teach you how to beat the air and not how to fight. Doing 10,000 raps will stuff up your tendons and 1,000,000 raps will stuff your bone marrow. that's why your body is rotting away.

"instead of training an art people have lived and died trying to create and then kickboxing when you fight."

If you train in teh context of kick boxing then you fight like a kick boxer. Put it this way, within the context of kick boxing rules - kick boxing techniques are the most effective. Think about it.

"High reps are very boring at first,and you will suffer emotionally,and physicaly but you will suffer in training and never in life."

Nah you don't suffer emotionally or physically, it's just a waste orf time IF you're learning how to fight. But I agree, your training would suffer. The again, why should kunfg fu training be about sufferring.

"Ego I appologize for my comments."

No need to appologize. Just don't waste your time with Pak Hok Pai!

Maximus Materialize!

BAI HE
07-11-2001, 12:54 AM
feet are firmly rooted, weight sunk to the waist, chi cultivated in the lower dan tien, intention leads the chi through the shoulders, down the arms and transmitted to the point of attack.

White Crane is an internal/external art. The Cotton Needle set itself is considered the therapeutic equal of Tai Chi Chuan.

The complete system includes chin na and traditional chinese medicine.

This swinging of the arms you refer to serves to strengthen and loosen the waist and the muscles of the back and shoulders resulting in the type of "whipping power" that is the hallmark of the system.

Each basic punch covers all 3 ranges, hence the philosophy of "Attacking while being attacked" which is the ultimate aim of Bak Hok.

Punching air? We spar, drill and push hands on a daily basis. The boxing itself is at the center of the white crane system. In the old days a practitioner would study and develop his basics over a period of roughly three years. Then they would spar and spar and spar some more. The style was so effective it was the preferred method of the Ching Dynasty Imperial guard.

So I know not of which White Crane you speak of and I've read some of your earlier derogatory posts about Bak Hok.
I've come to the conclusion that you are a misinformed clown. I checked out your website and whatever it is you think your doing, you like you couldn't kick over a milk carton much less comment one of the most revered systems of gung-fu.
I am sorry for your accident and the loss of mobility in your legs, but running around ****ing people off is not the answer. You will most likely **** someone off and they will show up at your house with a blowtorch and some power tools and turn you into Robogeek. Please go away. You purport to be a Mantis Practitioner, please go to that board and have your jollies. I'm sure you'll be exposed for the shallow, knowledgeless miscreant that you are.
You are a most persistent douche bag, so I'm sure I'll hear some more from you, but I will no longer respond to anything you post.

Best of luck in all ventures. Pete.

Gum Gong
07-11-2001, 10:35 AM
Hello Pete,
You took the words right out of my mouth on that one.Tibetan White crane has also been proven in war when the British invaded Tibet back in the early 1900's.There was one instance where Tibetan warriors ,barehanded, killed 39 enemies that were armed with guns.Actually the Lion's Roar System was the Tibetan system probably used which is the mother of Tibetan White Crane.

The high repititions also work on more advanced techniques also.The whole philosiphy behind suffering comes from the Buddihist philosiphy of purity thruogh suffering.I don't hate my training by any far stretch of the imagination,but it is definately one of the hardest things I do,and has to be so too get the desired results.My teacher alway said suffer in training so you don't have to suffer in life,which means train your butt off daily and you will have a much more fulfilling life.

10,000 repitions
1,000,000 repitions
Trained not tough

CannonFist
07-11-2001, 02:51 PM
I understand that it is widely accepted that Pak Hok has Tibetan origins. However I don't think that the more common Tibetan martial arts would resemble Lama/Pak Hok/ Hop Gar. I doubt that the Tibetan warriors who fought the British during the early 1900s were practitioners of Lama/Pak Hok Pai.

Lama Pai does have a strong reputation traditionally as proven by Wong Yan Lum (one of the ten tigers of Guangdong) when he beat all commers in an open tournament.

Stumblefist
07-11-2001, 07:33 PM
"It's very boring...but interesting". one of my classmates used to say to me a long time ago...but he kept coming back. Sort of sums it up at first - interesting within the boring.
But i never thought of anything of this, in those days no books, no videos, no internet, not even kept a notebook, nor cared if i learned anything "new" that day. Just practiced, and not even count repetitions. Don't like that idea, just at some point movements became internalized. The whole body vigorous practice of "external" naturally leads to "internal in this matter.
The only standard i tried and only aim was "to become strong" , did i keep up? and strongly? and with full movement and speed? The standard was always there in front of me.
That eventually led to a never-want-to-stop practice and an interest to study all day training methods or training/camp - mountain-top practice.
I just keep the standard: do basic movements become internalized? do i have to think to use chopsticks or do i just use them?
From basic movements many other movements can be used spontaneously. So that idea of practice amny movements few reps ) vs (practice few movements many reps) is abhorrent to me. Totally misses the learning process. The system is absorbed quite like spititual absorbtion which is "as a whole" The progress is always long long misery and then sudden integration, not piecemeal. Althugh piecemeal methods are necessary they can't create really be a standard of progress. Which is why the teacher's eyes just watch and watch and watch.
So some people think they can just use their brain to fight intelligently, and i promote that kung fu is more intelligence and mind than most recognize and kungfu can be studied with just the mind only.
The caveat is that only if the body has been prepared and in some sense transcended. It is the core of the thinking machine.
so i put my money on Gum Gong and Bai He.
But counting numbers is trivial, everybody is different. But the process of repetition and body change is not even begun to be described by Gum Gong. There is much more in the burning out of old wrong-use muscle systems and discovering new ways and draining te external to find the internal etc. etc.
But i don't think it is training specific techniques basic vs advanced or this specific vs that specific as it is training basics.
Once basics are absorbedthey are recombined and altered spontaneously in fighting. They take on a life of their own.
All good styles are really one. so there is no pitting one against another in this kind of way. So ..some thought about which style can "eat" the other without alteration of itself. I can practice White Crane and then Aikido. I can take in the Aikido (and keep it as Aikido) and use it. Aikido can not "eat" white crane. On the other hand white crane did not develop the specialities of Aikido so can benefit from them. The realxed slipping, twisting and aggressive "entering" of Crane cna naturally make use of Aikido "entering", iriminage, atemi, locking and throwing.

Gum Gong
07-12-2001, 12:28 AM
Very well stated stumblefist.I was trying to get across a point that only you picked up on.Spiritual awakining of your art.Every art has it's own spirit.Your body has is own spirit.You train your body to use its fighting spirit.There is a fine line you can walk on though.If your shen is constantly turned on you will have warrior mind and that is not a good place to be in this society.I train Hop Gar as well as White Crane and while White Crane keeps me in an intellectual,spiritual rythm,Hop Gar instantly sends me into warrior mind and I will become"insta jerk"if I let warrior mind have it's way with me.

10,000 repitions
1,000,000 repitions
Trained not tough

Ego_Extrodinaire
07-15-2001, 04:08 PM
To Pete

"feet are firmly rooted, weight sunk to the waist, chi cultivated in the lower dan tien, intention leads the chi through the shoulders, down the arms and transmitted to the point of attack."

I don't know what you mean by chi, but I agree, Pak Hok uses strong stances with little to no mobility.

"White Crane is an internal/external art. The Cotton Needle set itself is considered the therapeutic equal of Tai Chi Chuan."

Not true, Pak Hok moves differently to Tai Chi. More like Choy Lay Fut

"The complete system includes chin na and traditional chinese medicine."

Chinese medicine is an addon, sure in the old days so people who learned to kill also learned to heal. but medicine is quite separate from the fighting aspects of nay style. Sure every style has it's grappling aspects but in my opinion, pak Hok doesn't intergate the grappling aspects well at all.

"This swinging of the arms you refer to serves to strengthen and loosen the waist and the muscles of the back and shoulders resulting in the type of "whipping power" that is the hallmark of the system."

That's great! It looks like you're either doing a superior style of pak hok or an inferior style of Pi Qua!

"Each basic punch covers all 3 ranges, hence the philosophy of "Attacking while being attacked" which is the ultimate aim of Bak Hok."

Doesn't work all the time. in fact there are limited circumstances when it does work. Angle, speed, timing etc.

"Punching air? We spar, drill and push hands on a daily basis. The boxing itself is at the center of the white crane system. In the old days a practitioner would study and develop his basics over a period of roughly three years. Then they would spar and spar and spar some more."

Not true. It is not in the history of pak Hok to spar. The reason givenis that thestrikesare practiced at full power and its too deadly.

"The style was so effective it was the preferred method of the Ching Dynasty Imperial guard."

Not true This story is not surported by historical documentation other than stories from Pak Hok schools.

"So I know not of which White Crane you speak of and I've read some of your earlier derogatory posts about Bak Hok."

The post are not intended to be derogatory.What I say is because of what it is.

"I've come to the conclusion that you are a misinformed clown. I checked out your website and whatever it is you think your doing, you like you couldn't kick over a milk carton much less comment one of the most revered systems of gung-fu."

I may be a clown but I'm not misinfored What we site are you referring to? I don't have a website.

"I am sorry for your accident and the loss of mobility in your legs, but running around ****ing people off is not the answer."

I'm not responsible for people's reactions to my comments. If they don't agree so be it.

"You will most likely **** someone off and they will show up at your house with a blowtorch and some power tools and turn you into Robogeek."

You've really got an imagination - but try to get a healthy one. yeah I do have a doctorate in robotics Call me a geek if you must - see if I care!

"Please go away. You purport to be a Mantis Practitioner, please go to that board and have your jollies."

If you find my post to be so distasteful, why do read and respond to my post. Again I must stress that I'm not responsible for your actions and nor you're of mine!

"I'm sure you'll be exposed for the shallow, knowledgeless miscreant that you are.
You are a most persistent douche bag, so I'm sure I'll hear some more from you, but I will no longer respond to anything you post."

You don't impress my much

Gum Gong

"Very well stated stumblefist.I was trying to get across a point that only you picked up on."

I think you've missed the point!

"Spiritual awakining of your art.Every art has it's own spirit.Your body has is own spirit.You train your body to use its fighting spirit."

You don't have to get into the mystical spiritual, extra-terrestrial transccendental bull crap. Kung fu is nothing more than fighting.

"There is a fine line you can walk on though.If your shen is constantly turned on you will have warrior mind and that is not a good place to be in this society.I train Hop Gar as well as White Crane and while White Crane keeps me in an intellectual,spiritual rythm,Hop Gar instantly sends me into warrior mind and I will become"insta jerk"if I let warrior mind have it's way with me."

Oh I think you're mentally screwed. A warrior's mind - that's a laugh. You mean like doctor david banner and the incredible Hulk. Do you grow white feathers in the process. But seriously, you fight because you have to fight. There's nothing more to it. Thestate ofmind is trigerred by external stimulus - much like Dr. David Banner and the Incredible Hulk. Ooops did I already mention that?

Maximus Materialize!

BAI HE
07-15-2001, 06:15 PM
Kelvin Chin, I now know that you know nothing about Bak Hok. Please supply the name of the White Crane Sifu who agreed with you that his art is "useless". What's his name?

BAI HE
07-15-2001, 07:09 PM
Please see "Chinese Boxing, Masters and Methods"
re: White Crane boxing.

Cotton Needle is the chi set in the style
it resembles Yang style tai chi.

Punches? Nothing works all the time.

Pi Qua? Never heard of it?

Gum Gong
07-16-2001, 03:59 AM
Yes Ego I'm crazy very crazy.Thank you for reassuring me.And your the only sane person in this great big world.Why are you even on here?You don't train anything but your fingers on the keyboard.I will reply to nothing more from you.

Bai He What's that Chinese Boxing, Masters and Methods.It sounds really interesting.

10,000 repitions
1,000,000 repitions
Trained not tough

BAI HE
07-16-2001, 01:25 PM
It's a great little book by Robert W. Smith. Back in the seventies he travelled throughout various regions of Taiwan and Hong Kong to study and train with various masters of different styles.

He trains or meets wit three White Crane Boxers.

It's an inexpensive little book but a great one.
I believe Mr. Smith is going to be interviewed in next month's Inside Kung Fu.

If you want a real laugh. Search for Ego's past posts and you'll see what a troll he is. He doesn't know whether he's coming or going.

It's well known and written in several books that WC was the preferred method of the Imperial Guard of the Ching Dynasty.

So ignore Ego.

CannonFist
07-16-2001, 04:57 PM
Robert Smiths book does talk about white crane but it is a different white crane from Tibetan white crane. It is Fujian white crane which is very common in Taiwan.

Ego: Its interesting that you compare Tibetan white crane with Pi Qua. Pi Qua does seem to have very sopisticated long swinging arm techniques.

BAI HE
07-16-2001, 05:18 PM
Thanks for the clarification.

Ego_Extrodinaire
07-17-2001, 12:18 PM
Bai He

"Kelvin Chin, I now know that you know nothing about Bak Hok. Please supply the name of the White Crane Sifu who agreed with you that his art is "useless". What's his name? "

I think you've got the wrong person. My name's not Kelvin! And as I have mentioned in pervious posts, i am not at liberty to disclose any of my previous instructors or any schools. Suffice to say that I have trained extensively in WC.

"Please see "Chinese Boxing, Masters and Methods"
re: White Crane boxing."

Who's to say that some schools don't train differently. i've seen some Hung Gar schools that train like kick boxers.

"Cotton Needle is the chi set in the style
it resembles Yang style tai chi."

The soft crane set is an add-on. it bears little to no relationship to the entire system. It's probably a modified version of tai Chi. i know of that set.

"Punches? Nothing works all the time."

Yes, and when it doesn't work the WC practitioner is stuck because the style harps on the same concept. Kind of like a one solution fits all - when reality is not the case!

"Pi Qua? Never heard of it?"

Educate yourself! It is what WC was meant to be!

Cannofist

"Ego: Its interesting that you compare Tibetan white crane with Pi Qua. Pi Qua does seem to have very sopisticated long swinging arm techniques. "

Yes i was trying to illustrate the fact that they may look the same (swinging arms), but technique and applications are very different.

It's the whipping action in Pi Qua. I've trained in both and the training methods are very different. Power generation is very different. I fully understand when WC pracs. brag about the whipping power - hey I used to think the same way until I practiced Pi Qua.

At this point - I'll be branded a troll by some. But don't you think its funny that some of these people who do the name calling haven't even heard of Pi Qua! Perhaps before they start the name calling they should give Pi Qua a go. What do you think?

Maximus Materialize!

BAI HE
07-17-2001, 02:24 PM
"Pak Hok uses strong stances with little or no mobility."

I set you up with "feet firmly rooted". You walked into that one. WC stresses mobility and evasion in combat. Again, you know nothing.

Add ons?
Anything outside the original 6 forms is probably an add on

"but in my opinion , Pak Hok doesn't integrate the grappling aspects well at all?

Really? I spent a good long time in Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujitsu, I feel pretty qualified to say that it does . What's you experience in this? Wrestling with a twelve year old at a flea market over the last Optimus Prime doll?

The Cotton Needle set is not an add on. It's one of the six original sets.

Furthermore, if you suggest to any Sifu, WC or not, that his art is "ineffective" I am certain he would give you a demonstration and relieve you of conciousness.

I educate myself every time I enter the Kwoon. Pi Qua? Don't really care. Before you were hawking Northern Mantis. Now Pi Qua? Where did you get all this time to master these arts? Answer: You didn't. Go ahead and point out any Pi Qua school within 10,000 miles. You won't.

You offer nothing in the way of validation of any of you opinions, experience or skill.

"Kung-Fu is nothing more than fighting."
For you it seems Kung-Fu is just mental m-a-s-t-u-b-a-t-i-o-n.

Troll? you said it not me pal. You are a web-warrior and little else.

Ego_Extrodinaire
07-18-2001, 05:50 PM
"I set you up with "feet firmly rooted". You walked into that one. WC stresses mobility and evasion in combat. Again, you know nothing."

Mobility and evasion is not absolute but relative. It is fair to say that for some one who hasn't trained in Northern styles you would find white crane to be mobile etc.... But as I have trained in both i know better. I'm not disputing what you claim about WC, it's just that your knowledge base doesn't extand to styles like Pi Qua.

"Really? I spent a good long time in Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujitsu, I feel pretty qualified to say that it does ."

WC uses alot of mongolian wrestling techniques but it doesn't integrate well with the rest of the system. It's either long swinging arms or close in wresting - the transition between the two is rather shoddy.

"What's you experience in this? Wrestling with a twelve year old at a flea market over the last Optimus Prime doll?"

Northern styles deal extensively with close in techniques. Plus i had extensive experience in Southern systems to make a comparison.

"The Cotton Needle set is not an add on. It's one of the six original sets."

You can call it what ever you like, but it is necessary to evaluate the contents of the set - it is inconsitent with the rest of the style.

"Furthermore, if you suggest to any Sifu, WC or not, that his art is "ineffective" I am certain he would give you a demonstration and relieve you of conciousness."

Well I always wondered what would happen. At least now I don't have to lose sleep over it if he were to releive me of my conciousness.

"I educate myself every time I enter the Kwoon."

Yes, doing repetitve exercise is like learning English by reciting the alphabates. Maybe you're just a slow learner and you neeed the repetition to drill it all in.

"Pi Qua? Don't really care. Before you were hawking Northern Mantis. Now Pi Qua?"

Suit yourself. Some people appreciate a well rounded education, I guess others don't.

"Where did you get all this time to master these arts? Answer: You didn't."

Some people may be faster learners than others. Not every one requires repeating the 8 basic punches 1001 times each. WC was used by the imeperial guards as a form of exercise, but peasants thought that it was a fighting art! peasants are always a bit slow - you don't have to pretend to be one.

"Go ahead and point out any Pi Qua school within 10,000 miles. You won't."

And why should I. If you recite the alphebates 1001 times, you'll be able to locate a school in the phone book. Just a hint: P comes before Q and after O. it works, you won't be disappointed!

"You offer nothing in the way of validation of any of you opinions, experience or skill."

Oh are you feeling cheated?

"For you it seems Kung-Fu is just mental m-a-s-t-u-b-a-t-i-o-n."

But of course, the mind is the greatest weapon.

"Troll? you said it not me pal. You are a web-warrior and little else. "

In the age of electronic warfare, how many battles these days are waged with spears and swords.

Maximus Materialize!

BAI HE
07-18-2001, 06:27 PM
I do most of my basics on my own time at the Kwoon, home wherever.
Like in western boxing, the "roadwork", running, basics, weights, etc. Is my responsibility, not my Sifu's.

Anyway, think our exchanges have killed this thread and I'm now bored and I'm sure you have other threads to disrupt.

It was fun jousting with you. Take care Pete.

"The taller the bamboo grows, the lower to the groung it bows."

p.s. I will look into this Pi Qua. Sounds interesting.

Ego_Extrodinaire
07-19-2001, 11:50 AM
Like wise, it's a pleasure jousting with you. If we lived in the wild west we probably would have duked it out with a six-shot. If we were in the wild east, we'll have to survive each others deadly blows.

But seriously, do give Pi Qua a go. It is not supposed to be some mystical mumbo jumbo that people claim internal arts to be. A good pi qua school would teach practical stuff and students will be fighting the way they train.

Good luck with your life oh Black Knight. Brave Sir Robin awaits a new jousting partner. On Guard!

Maximus Materialize!

alecM
07-19-2001, 03:09 PM
Ego or should I call you Richard Cranium, I see you are back and championing the cause of Pi Qua this time the last time it was Baji or was it Northern Mantis and by the way why is it that on this board you live in New Jersey and on Cyberkwoon you state you live in New York. It didn't take long for Cyberkwoon to label you a troll.

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

Ego_Extrodinaire
07-20-2001, 04:49 AM
Alecman,

i'm not Richard Cranium. The cyberkwoon board is moderated by a bunch of close minded tight @sses, to the point where they feel the need to edit the post of Ego Maximus.

I've never referred to myself as Richard or what ever other names except Ego Maximus and Ego Extrodinaire. Both are great egos on these forums and i can understand why lesser egos feel the need to brand me as a troll. i hope you're not that kind of person with low self esteem.

I live very close to New Jersey. In fact, I'm closer to New Jersey then i am to Manhatten Island. but i travel alot to MIT where I'm working on a robotics project.

And again, i do hard core robotics research and don't play with transformer toys although i do think that transformers is quite a cute idea. My 6 year old cousin does - not I.

Seeing that you've come on to this forum, tell me what you have to say about Pak Hok Pai!

Maximus Materialize!

warrenoh
07-20-2001, 11:48 AM
ego, u can't say certain style is bad with ur short experience(3 years).
Talking about myself, i m 24 yrs old, and trained since i was 4. i got my first black belt(poom) in TKD in 1983, when i was 7. i trained ShanDong Shaolin and MeiHuaTangLang for my teenager years, and i got my 2nd degree blackbelt from Korea WuShu Association, and passed regional WuShuSanDa contest for Asian Games(Asian Olympics).i also trained JuDo in PoSung HighSchool which is famous for its athletic experience in korea, and some hapkido in middle school.

I have a friend who's specialized in BaJiQuan. he learned from WuLianZhi in CangZhou, HeBei, China.
he also knows PiQuaChang(BaJi&PiQua are trained together), and showed me some PiQua moves a couple of years ago.

Generally, training in korea is way much tougher than North America.
For example, i had to stand in horse stance for 30 minutes, before i learned the very basics. the classes was 5 days a week(M-F 2hours day), and sometimes the club went for hiking on sunday. this is how i trained when i was young.
Also, i got involved in lots of street fighting and group fighting(School vs School, etc.) Since there's no gun for the public in korea, we fought with mostly BareHand, BaseBall Bat ,and Iron Pipe.

I came to Canada in 1994 for school, and trained WC&Lama since then.
i now work in a security business(Private Security and In-House security), and not to brag about myself, but i never lost in 1on1 fight.

My love for Tibetan style is based on my experiences. and i m sure people here love what they train and train hard, and i respect them for that.

the reason i teach KickBoxing and TKD for my private students is because that's what they want to learn from me.

i m sure there are hundreds of different MA styles. but i believe the eventual goal is same.
as the rice ripes, its top is bending down. Human-Being's life is same, too. as we go to higher level, we become more humble.
this is how i learned.

Ego, obviously, no one here likes you, and that's because you are putting down what they love. if u think what u love is better than what we love, so be it and leave us alone. And from what i read, you are a very smart person, and i don't understand why you are doing this. i m sure u can do better than doing this. Why don't you put this effort in your training, ego?
i m sure u'll be better.

Love yourself, ego.

[This message was edited by warrenoh on 07-21-01 at 03:03 AM.]

warrenoh
07-20-2001, 01:15 PM
WC stresses mobility and evasion in combat.

-True, that's one of the basic fighting principle of WC.


WC uses alot of mongolian wrestling techniques but it doesn't integrate well with the rest of the system. It's either long swinging arms or close in wresting - the transition between the two is rather shoddy.

- if he's from JingJong(traditional) lineage and BaiSee disciple(in-door(adopted) disciple), he wouldn't say that.

The Cotton Needle set is not an add on. It's one of the six original sets. You can call it what ever you like, but it is necessary to evaluate the contents of the set - it is inconsitent with the rest of the style.

- MeinLoiJum(Needle in Cotton) is from DouLouSau, one of the original moves, and it is very consistent with the style for going up to the higher level. it's fighting application is based on system's basic fighting principle. this also depends on the sifu and being a BaiSee Discple. without deep understading, it's like playing 24-form TaiChi.

"Furthermore, if you suggest to any Sifu, WC or not, that his art is "ineffective" I am certain he would give you a demonstration and relieve you of conciousness." Well I always wondered what would happen. At least now I don't have to lose sleep over it if he were to releive me of my conciousness.

-True, SiFu is such a big title, he's carrying the tradition from his MA ancesters. if the sifu is from genuine lineage, his MA ancesters are like his blood family ancesters. you would fight if someone says ur parents are ***** and *******. if you don't, that means you don't love yourself.

Yes, doing repetitve exercise is like learning English by reciting the alphabates. Maybe you're just a slow learner and you neeed the repetition to drill it all in.

-False, there's a very famous chinese MA saying.
' if u train Chuan(skill) without Kung(basic), it will be like ship without flag when u are old.'
almost every chinese KF masters know this saying, northern stylists or southern.

"Where did you get all this time to master these arts? Answer: You didn't." Some people may be faster learners than others. Not every one requires repeating the 8 basic punches 1001 times each.

-Doesn't matter if he's slow or not, MA is training and developing himself, practicing hard is for his own good.

WC was used by the imeperial guards as a form of exercise, but peasants thought that it was a fighting art! peasants are always a bit slow - you don't have to pretend to be one.

-False, Qing dynasty was a Manchunrian dynasty, they imported Lama Monks(ZangZhu-minority)from tibet. Better study chinese history before even getting into this topic.

BAI HE
07-20-2001, 01:47 PM
Where ya been? Do you study with Vincent Chow?

alecM
07-20-2001, 03:20 PM
I must apologise for interrupting to the people in this thread, who are having a genuinely good discussion to explain to Ego the meaning of Richard Cranium.

Richard = Dick
Cranium = Head.

Again, I apologise to the other members in this thread.

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

lkfmdc
07-20-2001, 10:11 PM
you guys really shouldn't take "ego" seriously and be bothered. Not that long ago I asked him a few direct questions to see how much he really knew about the white crane he claimed to know so much about. He posted a smart assed evasion which showed he really doesn't have a clue.

among the questions were
1. identify Jih Wu Bouh and Chat Sing Bouh and explain the difference. I asked him which he learned...

2. identify Dou Lou Sau, Fei Hok Sau, Neih Lahk Sau and Lau Sing Kyuhn and arrange them in the proper order

he had NO CLUE

BAI HE
07-21-2001, 03:59 AM
Is the only WC skill he can lay claim to.
I gave up, because he ruins alot of threads. I read a ton of old stuff on this board before I stuck my toe in the pool and knew he'd be a pain in the a-z-z.
I argue enough in my real life, with my wife and the administrative circle-jerk Masters I work for. I don't need it on this board. Lord knows typing is a real chore when you suck at it.

I am glad to see a little Bak Hok Pai coming out of the woodwork. There are so few of us and I enjoy hearing from others.

Ego is a pretty good troll. At least he offers a smokescreen and a hint of relevant information.
I'm still trying to find some info on this "Pi-Qua" he mentioned.

Stumblefist
07-21-2001, 07:18 AM
"among the questions were
1. identify Jih Wu Bouh and Chat Sing Bouh and explain the difference. I asked him which he learned...

2. identify Dou Lou Sau, Fei Hok Sau, Neih Lahk Sau and Lau Sing Kyuhn and arrange them in the proper order

he had NO CLUE"
I don't either, or at least i think i don't. My teacher was cantonese but the only thing he ever said was "faster"! :)
Now that you have outed him can you explain? Maybe i do these, maybe i don't.
Bouh = ?
Sau = "block"?
Kyuhn = "fist"?

Ego_Extrodinaire
07-21-2001, 11:07 AM
Warrenho

“I have a friend who's specialized in BaJiQuan. he learned from WuLianZhi in CangZhou, HeBei, China. he also knows PiQuaChang(BaJi&PiQua are trained together), and showed me some PiQua moves a couple of years ago. “

You seem to have a sad childhood having to fight all the time. And now that you’re in the security business, you have to carry on fighting. How did you find PiQua and BaJi compare with Pak Hok. I find them to be very different, but it may be the case I was landed with a shoddy Pak Hok Sifu. That might be why our perception of WC is so different.

IKFMDC

“you guys really shouldn't take "ego" seriously and be bothered. Not that long ago I asked him a few direct questions to see how much he really knew about the white crane he claimed to know so much about.”

Oh those questions are for trivial persuit, you can look them up on the internet. I ranked them in alphabatical order for you. Given that you’re using those questions as a yard stick to judge my knowledge, you have placed judgement upon yourself as to what you consider important in kung fu.

Bai He

“I argue enough in my real life, with my wife and the administrative circle-jerk Masters I work for. I don't need it on this board. Lord knows typing is a real chore when you suck at it.”

Look, don’t take your frustration out on me just because you have a disfunctional relationship with your wife. If you spend the same amount of time with your wife as you do in the kwoon, I’m sure your relationship would improve. If you buy her a rose for ever Jin you do or say ‘I love you” with as much intensity as you do a pow you’ll not have arguments with her.

On second thoughts, PiQua is not what you need. Get off this PC right no and take her out to dinner!

Stumblefist

That’s correct, I don’t understand cantonese that well. My ex-sifu always referred to things in simplified english terms. I trained with a bunch of backwater American rednecks who thought that Dim Sim was a city in China.

Maximus Materialize!

Stumblefist
07-25-2001, 03:38 PM
Ego, yeah, he just counted the forms #1, #2 etc. That doesn't undermine the cleverness of the style nor it's fighting capability.
But you are wrong about the rednecks, it's a chinatown club lodged in the community and with a long fighting history. I started back in the days when KF in America was a little more respectable. It seems a lot of intellectual and effete practice has sprung up since then.
I don't take you seriously, i'm just chatting. You seem to be just needling people without too much to offer. Maybe you have nothing to do...
I don't consider styles to oppose one another. Genuine styles have all the same basics and just specialize in different areas. If a style is not whole-body it is not a genuine complete style and can probably be used as an add-on, wheras it cannnot use others as an add-on.
Learning another style after the first style, assists both styles.
Do you have some definititve definitions of your "pi gua" somewhere which you are trying to tout like a football team?
I practised a little pigua in Henan last year, it was quite clever but it didn't resemble any crane methods but could be compatible. People use names and style names so generally, you have to see what they are actually doing.
I have also practised Baji. It is not like my crane. I find it an extremely useful add-on to crane as it is not a full martial art in my definition.
-----------------------------------------
Warrenho:
I am in Bejing right now. I should be interested in meeting any contacts you have for Baji or Pigua in Hebei. I have learned Baji from the chairman of the Baji association in Taiwan. Thanks a lot.... and don't take "ego" seriously.

Ego_Extrodinaire
07-27-2001, 04:32 AM
"But you are wrong about the rednecks, it's a chinatown club lodged in the community and with a long fighting history."

Hey you do sound quite familiar! maybe we had once trained together in the same Pak Hok school. My sifu used to get us to dress up as Big Bird during chinese new year. It was quite funny how he kept insisting that we were supposed to be white cranes when we were infact dressed in yellow. Later we discovered that old fool was color blind.

"I don't take you seriously, i'm just chatting. You seem to be just needling people without too much to offer."

people open themselves out to be needled particuarly southern kung fu people. Maybe it's their training I don't know but they're so one track minded.

"Maybe you have nothing to do...
I don't consider styles to oppose one another. Genuine styles have all the same basics and just specialize in different areas. If a style is not whole-body it is not a genuine complete style and can probably be used as an add-on, wheras it cannnot use others as an add-on."

That's true. I would say that you'll be hardpressed to find a Southern Sytle use whole body movement. They are all so **** stiff like a corpse. whereas, northern systems are so fluid and natural to execute.

"Learning another style after the first style, assists both styles."

I agree to the extent that provided that the styles are competible. In my prime, I would not have considered learning Wing Chun. it is just less good.

You asked about PiQua. It's more to do with extension and snapping rather than swinging as in Crane. PiQua is much faster and fluid as a result. Crane, by comparsion is very stiff and clunky.

Don't worry about Warrenho. He's been fighting all his life and is conditioned to converse in a hostile manner. Becase he trains wC seriuously, he takes life seriously as he probably doesn't have a life outside WC.

It's cool to be Egocentric,Egotistical, Egomaniacal but not Egophobic!

Maximus Maximize!

Stumblefist
07-28-2001, 01:46 PM
"I would say that you'll be hardpressed to find a Southern Sytle use whole body movement. They are all so **** stiff like a corpse...". "Learning another style after the first style, assists both styles."
Simply ...NO. Perhaps you are in a wheelchair and cannot get around.
......................................
"I agree to the extent that provided that the styles are competible. In my prime, I would not have considered learning Wing Chun. it is just less good."

I wil repeat my opinion: There is only one Martial Art. All styles are the same and thus compatible provided they have whole body usage and practice the execrices and methods need to prepare the body for any kind of exercise including kungfu. From their common basic activity they branch off into different specializations. Any such practise can absorb any exercise activity or kungfu. If the MA cannot absorb another then it is lacking in its' fundamentals.
I consider most Wing Chun to be a specialist or add-on type of activity not a full MA.
...........................................
"people open themselves out to be needled particuarly southern kung fu people. Maybe it's their training..."
Do you prefer a fine Chianti? or some vintage from the Californian winefields? Tandanay Rum or Bacardi Spice? Mekong Whiskey or Siem Thrip? How about the livers? ... well done, with a side order of spicy Hunan frogs?

Ego_Extrodinaire
07-28-2001, 04:10 PM
"Simply ...NO. Perhaps you are in a wheelchair and cannot get around."

That was before the accident. Wing Chun does not have full body movement rather it uses the appendages. In the case of WC the body movement is less efficient than Pi Qua. Yes it is harder to get around in a wheelchair, but it has been upgraded with a powerful electric motor that makes an omnimous humming sound.

"I wil repeat my opinion: There is only one Martial Art. All styles are the same and thus compatible provided they have whole body usage and practice the execrices and methods need to prepare the body for any kind of exercise including kungfu."

Not that true, because not all martial arts deal with the same combat situations. For example a medieval knight in chain mail armour would fight quite differently to the light armoured troops in the middle east.

"From their common basic activity they branch off into different specializations. Any such practise can absorb any exercise activity or kungfu. If the MA cannot absorb another then it is lacking in its' fundamentals. "

It is true that there are fundamental principals of body movement. However, if a particular style hasn't had to deal with certain combat situations some of these principals would be less developed -such as Wing Chun. As a result it appears to be more specialized.

"I consider most Wing Chun to be a specialist or add-on type of activity not a full MA. "

That's quite right in a sense. You've been agreeing with e quite alot ae we are both Mr Needles. But be careful, others might mistake that as trolling.

"Do you prefer a fine Chianti? or some vintage from the Californian winefields? Tandanay Rum or Bacardi Spice? Mekong Whiskey or Siem Thrip? How about the livers? ... well done, with a side order of spicy Hunan frogs?"

Mmmmmm that is working up an appitite. Ever since I've been in a wheel chair, I've grown a fondness for fine food and fine wine. When that's unavailable, junk food and a bottle of Bud would also suffice!

It's cool to be Egocentric,Egotistical, Egomaniacal but not Egophobic!

Maximus Maximize!

Tsuruken
08-05-2001, 08:05 AM
Hey, lets get the discussion back on track! Tell me more about the Tibetan White Crane System! I teach Chinese and Okinawan Crane-Fist so I am naturally interested in anything to do with the Crane arts.

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

E-mail: tsuruken@austarnet.com.au
Web Site: http://butoryu.freewebsites.com/

Ego_Extrodinaire
08-05-2001, 09:41 AM
Ron,

The tibetian crane fist and the fuikkien Crane fist are similar only in their names. Technique and application wise, Tibitian white crane is similar to CLF - using heavy arm swings and aggressive (charging type) footwork. Some people I've spoken to have commented that the this system is probably derived from beginner techniques in Northern Long Fist. I don't know howe true that is, but the system is very very basic.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

alecM
08-05-2001, 11:34 AM
stumblefist and the rest of you are wasting your time with Ego his real name is Kelvin Chan and is not from New Jersey or New York he is an Australian. These are his website addresses http://www.geocities.com/goktimus/Martial.html
http://www.geocities.com/goktimus/english_index.html

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

BAI HE
08-05-2001, 02:31 PM
The hip bone! Good way to bust your instep up.
Nice kick Kelvin!

http://www.geocities.com/goktimus/TodaDemo.JPG

BAI HE
08-05-2001, 02:36 PM
the fun I would have with my left hand
against that kick. You are wide open Kelvin. There isn't a basic Bak Hok hand technique that WOUNDN'T result in serious damage to that fishtank you call a head.

You are a Shemp.

Ego_Extrodinaire
08-06-2001, 05:07 PM
Alemc,

This is so sad! Your looking for more Ego on the World Wide Web, especially when there is more Ego then you can handle on this forum!

But guess what, you've found the wrong web page as Ego isn't Kelvin. So there's no need to wasting valuable time looking for more Ego when you could be downloading porn!

Keep swinging those arms and you'll be the star cast in the Planet of the Apes.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

lkfmdc
08-07-2001, 05:28 AM
whoever "ego" is, and really NO TIME should be spent trying to find out, he is nothing more than a troll.

whatever he says in meaningless because so clearly he has no clue what he is talking about

any reaction to his childish rants is simply giving him what he so desperately needs, attention

he is like a lonely child, looking to stir up trouble to get attention

Ego_Extrodinaire
08-07-2001, 11:54 AM
For all users on this forum, it is best that all Bak Hok practitioners get back to the topic of discussion.

However,it may be the case that there is really nothing more left to say about bak hok. Nevertheless, it is not an excuse to go on a senseless rant. it brings shame upon yourself, your si fu, your Kwoon and all the Si Sook etc... ancestors - what ever you call them.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

NorthernMantis
08-07-2001, 08:42 PM
Ego you're an idiot why do you alwys have to make us northern guys look bad?

"Always be ready"

Ego_Extrodinaire
08-08-2001, 05:06 PM
NorthernMantis,

If you disagree with my well founded research then say so. But at no time did Ego ever claimed to represent you or any of those Northern Guys you talked about.

Bear in mind that this is a Pak Hok post, I have to make my words plain and simple which may seem stupid to an intelligent person like you.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

HopGar
08-09-2001, 11:31 AM
Hmm....how annoying.....

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

Ego_Extrodinaire
08-11-2001, 05:37 PM
Giving some of you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps there are certain white crane schools that teach useful kung fu.

It might be helpful if you could let me know where they are?

What parts of the world are they popular?


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

diego
08-12-2001, 04:16 AM
Philip Gelinas runs a martial art academy in montreal he was lucky to learn from one who applied his hopgar.....although even if you werent in a wheelchair it would probably take u awhile to get in depth with the studie,i mean they could show you everything but you wouldnt have the muscles or attitude now would you
so if they started you on sparring to soon you mite get excited and spaz out forcing your partner to knock you out probably in your case bad back and all lite tap on the nose and slight drip of blood


your old sifu is not talking to the po-po about the date 4months from that summons

so yeah its like that with all schools isnt it some like art some like to box others like the sence of accomplishment/security

his # should be in the phone books hes also certified under guro inosanto to teach kali and under a.emperado the main founder to tech i think three methods of kajukenbo

hope that helps not only will you get crane methods but a slew of bodyangled related arts

with alot of the last 100 years of streetfighting knowledge,TAKE CARE.......

friday
08-12-2001, 05:15 AM
Hi Ego,

your a nut.

I have read your comments in this forum...unfortunately. If you practice Martial Arts I think you bring shame to your school and your sifu. Regardless of all this, you bring disrepute to yourself. As I think you would only make these comments in cyberspace where you can hide, your a waste of space and time.

friendly, open and tactful discussion about different styles is fine. None of these terms are appropriate to describe what you have said.

Like I said...you are a nut.

Cheers

888

Ego_Extrodinaire
08-12-2001, 11:57 AM
Friday,

The weekend's round the corner. You may think youre so good being 888. But Ego is actually 666 the devil incarnate in cyerspace. Not a nut that you can crack!


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

HopGar
08-12-2001, 03:43 PM
Hi Diego - Email me the stuff you sent before, you know the webpage. I agree Ego is the devil maybe thats why they haven't banned him yet.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

WenJin
08-12-2001, 05:07 PM
Ego ...Help me OBIWAN your my last hope.

friday
08-13-2001, 05:05 AM
your're the devil...thats nice Ego...ummm...well done...

'nuff said.

:)

888

friday
08-13-2001, 05:11 AM
Hi everyone again...i think i posted two messages on this forum yesterday but...it appears one of them isn't here. anyway...

I would like to get email addresses and contacts with Pak Hok ,Hop Gar, or Lama Pai practitioners around the world.

let me know if you are interested.

888

Rolling Elbow
08-13-2001, 07:15 PM
You guys describe White Crane like its Choy Lay fut! hehe.

Why do you bother with Ego Maximus.. his endless crusade to promote northern acrobatic (and ridiculously flashy) kungfu styles is both boring and repetitive.

All styles cover the same angles of attack and tactics. Hell, there is only soo many ways of doing things. Hook punches are hook punches..call em wings or call em fans- same thing.

Ego, you'd get destroyed by a ninja bloke!

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

Ego_Extrodinaire
08-14-2001, 02:22 PM
Rolling Elbow,

But white crane is like CLF! What do you mean "... destroyed by a ninja bloke?" I'm not an alien - the men in blank aren't after me!


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

friday
08-14-2001, 03:40 PM
Hi Rolling Elbow,

Pak Hok and CLF are categorised as cherng kuen, "long fist" for its extensive use of long range techniques. I believe there is also a lot of waist movement or twisting in both styles. Unfortunately, I think thats where the similarities end. Read this with caution however, I have studied a bit of CLF in the past but I am definitely no expert.
I have seen a particular form of CLF which involves a lot of whipping, circular motion of the arm and this technique reminded me of one of the moves in Pak Hok Lau Sing Kuen (Shootings Stars form of the Chert Yup Bo, "In Out step". Even if some of the movements are similar doesn't mean the styles are the same. THe principles behind the styles, theories also vary.
I would also like to ask a question of Ego,
Hi Ego, from what you have told everyone I believe you may have had a disappointing experience with your Pak Hok teacher. Just as I am sure not everyone who has studied praying mantis, Pi qua, Ba gua, etc are happy with their teachers or the interpretation of the style, not everyone will be happy with Pak Hok or their particular teacher...for whatever reasons.
To claim that CLF and Pak Hok are similar styles also indicates that you didn't learn very much of it in spite of the years you followed your US sifu. Have you had the opportunity to see Tin Gong Kuen? Siu Mg Ying, Dai Mg Ying? or weapon forms of Pak Hok? Even if you have, I seriously doubt you would understand the application of particulr techniques or their precise execution. I don't mean this as an insult. Teachers teach you in the way they do for their own reasons. They may not like you, or think you lack respect, or particular qualities necessary, or you aren't good enough, or they don't know alot so drag it out, secrecy etc. Which is the secrecy problem i mentioned before which you ....strangely made fun of.
I think i have been lucky. kung fu is also about yuen fun. that is fate. there are many sifu out there who aren't that good, some who openly trick people into believing they are great. There are also good sifus who openly explain things and really try to help their students progress. I think my sifus belong to the latter and also belive I am lucky to be accepted by them as their student.
I believe in Pak Hok Pai. I don't claim it to be the best MA in the world but if you think so poorly of Pak Hok Pai, I don't think you have been taught by my sifu.
Anyway, I hope Tong Long Kuen, Pi Qua etc continue to bring you joy and fulfillment. :)

888

Barefoot Mantis
08-14-2001, 08:49 PM
Any of you guys know of Chan-Fat-Fu in HK? He is well known for his Choy-Lay-Fut but also claims knowledge in 'Lion's Roar'. He was a very cose friend of Harry Ng-Yim-Ming. In the early 1970's his student Lau-Char-Chu taught Lion's Roar in HK and was the self defence instructor to Stanley high Security prison staff - HK. Chans forms are very different to the usual ones, with different names. He is also a friend of GM KU-Chi-Wai of Atlanta. Seems taht he may have learned from Ng-Yim-Ming or at least 'exchanged' with him. Chan uses the Si-Ji-Hao name rather than Hop-Gar. Here in the UK it has been practiced and taught for about thirty years now.

diego
08-15-2001, 12:35 PM
i read a couple years ago in a article fei hung gave the tiger claw and yan lam gave the long fists......ANY IDEA

Ego_Extrodinaire
08-15-2001, 05:18 PM
Friday,

It is not in the interest of the sifu to show favourtism. His aim is to ensure that he maintains a good rep and students pay the fees. In any case, most people train in a class context - learning at any given level is quite uniform.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

Gum Gong
08-16-2001, 11:13 AM
In the old days sifus would have ceartain students that "paid the bills" and students that were poor but trained for real.The ones that trained for real usually got the goods.The other ones were given just enough to keep them coming back.

We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet
our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass
away.

friday
08-16-2001, 03:37 PM
Hi Ego,

hmmm...I think for some sifu at least, the ones who teach fulltime and rely on kung fu to make a living will be more likely to not show favouritism etc. Just makes 'business' sense.
I think a story might interest you tho'. One of my sifu teaches upon the basis of ability and dedication. He also taught me one-on-one. he also was very kind to offer me a place to stay if i needed it, dinner, lunch etc. He gave this to me without asking me to pay a cent. After being taught for the better part of three months, i offerred him a red envelope which he originally refused telling me to pay him next time as he knew i didn't hve permanent employment.
I am very grateful for the guidance and teaching he has given and continues to give me. he also doesn't accept everyone as students. He explained to me that this is because he doesn't rely on teaching kung fu to make his income. he has another business. he teaches kung fu out of devotion and belief in the style and because of a promise he made. Anyway, simply said, he is incredible.

:)

888

Tsuruken
08-17-2001, 02:33 AM
You wrote: <<"Giving some of you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps there are certain white crane schools that teach useful kung fu. It might be helpful if you could let me know where they are? What parts of the world are they popular?">>

Try Australia! I'd welcome you at my school anytime. There's also a good school in Sikina, Aoyama, Naha-shi, Okinawa and another in Guandong Province, China.

Ron

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

E-mail: tsuruken@austarnet.com.au
Web Site: http://butoryu.freewebsites.com/

Ego_Extrodinaire
08-17-2001, 03:32 PM
Besides knowledge of kung fu, the ability to teach is a skill in it self. fortunately people go to kung fu classes these days because they want to. So the chance of getting an unwilling student is not that high.

Si Fu's probably should recognise that different students train with different objectives in mind. If the size of the class is large as are some community tae kwon do classes it becomes harder to provide personal attention as with a smaller class. But these days as much as sifus choose the right students, students have the opportunity of choosing a sifu.

Friday, it's geat that you're learing form a friend rather than on a purely commercial basis.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

warrenoh
01-29-2002, 01:22 AM
moo- seut(WuShu in mandarin) is, from my translation, Martial(moo) Skill(Seut) rather than Martial Arts. When skill is progressed to the motion that is so fluid that might look like even dancing, we call that 'ARTS'n cuz it is an ART!!!.
However, there's what we call contemporary WuShu, what some ppl say as Martial Arts, it is definitely fun to watch. and i know serious WuShu players spend tremendous time training, and they have a great athletic ability. i really respect them for that. but my point here is that..... can we still call them a martial artist? cuz they-serious WuShu Competitor- spend more time on how to get better mark on competition rather than how to use that in the real fight or where the power comes from.
that's when i think about the true meaning of MA, i have trained as a national WuShu Player for Asian Games, and i have reasonable(?) count of street fighting experience enough to know Fist is useful, but not good enough against FireArms....
so i came into a conclusion that it is 'Moo HAK'!!!
For me MartialArts is something that helps me being better as a human-being, so i can be more humble, more understanding and happier.....

i think it takes time and experience to come to this conclusion.
And ur surroundings(environment) also matters a lot for y u train!!!

i hope u guys r all happy and get well!!!

GOOD LUCK!

diego
01-29-2002, 10:36 AM
We chatted on emial last year, i live in north van, Most the members barr ego, have developed recently a Private Forum, would you be so kind to grace us with your presence, From what i remember your a solid martial artist, so i dont see any problem with excepting your membership into our Private"ego-screw u/HEHE" Discussion, on TIBETAN GUNG-FU.

Ego_Extrodinaire
01-30-2002, 05:26 AM
Warren

Once again its sad to see white crane do an ostrache. When ever they encounter a different point of view, its heads in the sand. Close the door and keep the secret when there's none to keep.

No one has yet convinced me as to why white crane is effective.

diego
01-30-2002, 04:37 PM
TO A PARAPALEGIC.....

HopGar
01-31-2002, 06:44 AM
I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU'RE STILL AT IT AFTER REBUTTING EVERY POINT YOU MADE LAST TIME!!!!!

geez man, wtf is wrong with you? I think you have turned this stone over ONE TOO MANY TIMES. Enough is enough. Why don't you keep your opinions to yourself? Please. Actually, no please, just shut the f u c k up already. I think everyone is so d a m n tired of your crap.

diego
01-31-2002, 10:13 AM
Ego explian to me a effective style & how so...

Turiyan
03-19-2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by
Does anyone know if the present Dalai Lama practises Lama Kung Fu, or any other style of Kung Fu for that matter?

DL, out of disrespect for his spurious title, is of the "yellow hat" sect. Black hat are the ones that train the martial art and are the lowest caste. Yellow hat can downgrade to black hat and take on their dutys if they choose to, but its not to "train martial arts" to be cool.

And why on earth would "god" need martial arts in the first place? Or bodyguards or glasses for that matter....

Turiyan
03-19-2002, 11:33 PM
Chinese martial arts history is full of challenge matches. However, one stands up well above all the others and can be verified because it was chronicled in the Cantonese newspapers and is still widely discussed in TCMA circles.

*THE* definitive news source.... What name and location for the regulatory agency or body on ethics and practice for media professionals in hong kong like the "board" for jurspridence in the western tradition?

A few problems:

1) South china and SE asia has absolutley no literary tradition. Instead, an oral tradition. Remember that game "arab telephone"?

2) Most people trained in the traditional and canoical usage of mandarin chinese from a real scholastic institution cannot read cantonese written in newspapers.


In Canton City at the beginning of the 20th Century, a wooden stage was erected by Wong Yan Lam and an open challenge was made. Unlike other challenges, which were limited to a set time period or set number of challenges, this one was open. In fact, it ended up lasting weeks.

There was a tibetain stylist that used to have a great webpage on the subject of tibetain martial arts and had an account of the fight with some pictures. I wont mention his name.
(cough) Gareth.

I heard from a student that its because he cant pay his phone bills. Odd since he's got his name on the cover of those books I see.... Maybe we can get the dali lama to give him a blessing so he can sell that screenplay and make a fortune so he can get his bills paid and get his page back up.


Wong Yan Lam defeated 150 challengers without a single loss. Many local fighters lost in matters of SECONDS. It remains the largest and most impressive challenge in TCMA.

I'm sure there are some 20th degree black belts in mongolian wrestling that would beg to differ. (snikker)

HopGar
03-21-2002, 07:45 AM
Is someone playing DEVIL'S ADVOCATE, or is it another troll trying to be like EGO?

diego
03-21-2002, 04:32 PM
he thinks his ancestor's are enlightenedbrahmin from india?, and our mere mortal understanding is baseless to his observation:p
its to bad to, seem's like he may have an idea what he think's about, it's just he brings up names out of nowhere, pulls thoughts from conversations sort of relating to the topic at hands
then strings it together like a chimpanzee makes simile playdoh with his excrement in his delight?, whotf is garreth, what does his relationship with the phone company :D have to do with
the dalillama, why you so ****ed at dali was your greatstep uncle suppossed to incarnate as the current llama?

Yah, anyway's don't get me started on turyan he doesnt like to talk to people, yet he always talks to people, like?.

Tao-Yin-Lee
03-27-2002, 03:37 AM
There are very strong links between Tibetan 'kung-Fu' as practiced in the West and HK and systms of Indian 'kalari' (Battle-ground) traditional martial arts from Southern India.

Similarity of 'form' between arts has long been accepted as evidence of contact and development. There are Kalari forms that are near identical to Si-Ji-Hao (Lion's Roar) sets - morse so than any perceived similarity with for example Choy-Lay-Fut. The oral traditions of Tibetan 'Kung-Fu' support the link also.

Cultures evolve just as the human body has - with vestiges of previous evolutionary forms still present, still functioning, alongside more 'recent' additions and developments.

India is the home of Buddhism, India is the home of Kalari. Both were transmitted to Tibet. Lama Buddhism and 'Kung-Fu' thence transmitted to China (South & West) with influence also in Manchuria (Mongolian wrestling and the cultural adoption of Tibetan Buddhism by the Manchu dynasty).

Look to Kalari for the 'origins' of much of what we understand today as Tibetan 'Kung-Fu'.

Perhaps a 'pilgramage' to Southern India would answer these questions. More simply, approach the Indian community in your country, like the Chinese with Kung-Fu they have their secrets...

Tao.

andoi
04-03-2002, 11:53 PM
hey Tao-Yin-Lee

would you happen to anything more about the "kalari" indian martial art since it would be quite interesting topic in this forum i was also wondering what kind of similarities lama and choy li fut have in common?

Tao-Yin-Lee
04-04-2002, 01:41 AM
andoi,

Kalari is very rare, however, Si-Fu Paul Whitrod of Chow's family Mantis is also a very experienced and well qualified teacher of Indian Kalari martial arts. His web site has information on its history and technique - also suggestions about where to find instruction.

Si-Fu Paul also says that in his experience Kalari looks similar to CLF.

The BBC TV documentary from 1982 showed a basic classification (as in Chinese arts) between 'Northern' and 'Southern' styles of Kalari. Marma Adi (vital point - dim-mak equivalent) striking is included in the film, as well as ethnic medicine and a whole range of traditional weapons.

I think similarities between CLF and Lama will depend on the degree of cross-fertilisation. IMO the two have separate beginnings but over time there has been some convergent development. Some Masters of each art have also studied the other.

We may not always like to hear of 'pure' arts cross-fertilising but it is a a fact nevertheless.

The Kalari art is a good reminder that we should look outside of China for Kung-Fu's ancestral roots - at least SOME of the time.

Tao.

type01
04-04-2002, 10:06 PM
hi tao

i agree with you in that kalari and choy li fut have similarities but wouldnt kalari have more in common with lama kung fu than with choy li fut? No offence but if so why did you refer to choy li fut instead of lama kung fu? From what i have seen of both lama and choy li fut (which is very little) there is some degree of "cross fertilisation" as you call it for example i think they call it chaw or chow, something like that, both disciplines have the same technique but both disciplines execute it differently the lama people tend to be very advanced with the technique being precise in stance, arm position, head position and form of the movement there is thought and theory behind it whereas choy li fut look like they are less developed in the technique they lack the power in the strike it may be a result of poor execution of the correct movement and/or they lack the theory behind the strike. To them it seems to be just a strike.

I mean no disrespect to choy li fut but those are my thoughts on what i saw. That is why i think you should of refered to lama I may be wrong please correct me if i am, since it is difficult to see the differences between the two because of factors such as ability of the student, amount of dedication of master to student (vise versa) and whether the school is a commercialised money making machine where everyone outside the innercircle isnt taught correctly.

Tao-Yin-Lee
04-05-2002, 12:59 AM
type01

I mentioned Choy-Lay-Fut beacuse Si-Fu Whitrod drew the comparisson quite independently of me or of any knowledge of this discussion. In his opinion there was a resemblence.

I mention Tibetan arts in relation to Kalari because of the extraordinary similarities in a classical form shared between Kalari and one branch of Si-Ji-Hao which I had the privilege to learn.
Also, of course, the oral traditions and Buddhist transmission from India to Tibet.

As for cross-fertilisation between systems this goes on everywhere and is inevitable. It forms part of the tension necessary for systems to emerge, just as the opposite tendencey - that of conservatism also feeds into the creative tension albeit paradoxically in that conservatism generates cultural forces that are creatively opposed to it.

There are a lot of differences between Tibetan arts and Choy-Lay-Fut, many of the supposed similarities are superficial and on analysis are nothing more than the same or similar names given to techniques that are actually quite different mechanically.

That said, please understand that my use of Choy-Lay-Fut was in reference to a statement made by a Kung-Fu AND Kalari master. He did not in my understanding mean it in a literal way, but descriptively - to be 'similar' to Choy-Lay-Fut. It did not for example appear to be in any way similar to Wing-Chun as popularly seen.

What I saw of Southern Indian Kalari was more close to Tibetan Si-Ji-Hao than to Choy-Lay-Fut - as I have experienced it.

Tao.

type01
04-05-2002, 03:29 AM
Tao

it seems that i have misunderstood you i meant no disrepect to you im sorry if i sounded it.

Tao-Yin-Lee
04-05-2002, 07:26 AM
Not at all, it's good to make friends.

Tao.

Firebird
10-11-2002, 05:15 AM
Who has infos about tibetan kung fu styles ?
no Hop Gar, Lama Pai or tibetan white crane ; i thing there are more than these styles

FIRE HAWK
10-11-2002, 06:09 AM
http://www.indexu.com/demo/go.php?id=2247
http://www.brucechiu.com/white.htm

wiz cool c
10-11-2002, 08:38 AM
Does anyone know any info on Micheal Perella. He was a senior student of Chan Tia Son. Does anyone know if he has a web site?

diego
10-11-2002, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Firebird
Who has infos about tibetan kung fu styles ?
no Hop Gar, Lama Pai or tibetan white crane ; i thing there are more than these styles

According to my understanding, the only reason we know of these styles is they made thier way to china 2-300 years ago; & it would be rare to find pure tibet gf outside of these, because the tibet gf suppossedly was for high level lamas, & with the chinese cultural revolution most of them were wiped out...& i dont think like say thier was a tibet toad gungfu or something. I dont think if sometrhing like that exists/existed, I doubt it made its way to china.

So, IMU...only reason we know of shaolin gungfu is because the manchu tok over and this forced everyday chinese to pick up say hungga...wheras the chinese took tibet in 1940-60, plus in the age of the gun= I Assume most TibetGF is Extinct or Seceret!.
Hope that Helps!?.

Tao-Yin-Lee
10-12-2002, 02:03 AM
There are Tibetan systems that have remained reasonably independent of the lineages that passed thru western, Northern and Southern China (appearing as the Lion's Roar lineages in Han Kung-Fu)

If you try www.tibetankungfu.com and mail the admin you may be put in touch with people who practice these arts.

These systems are NOT Kung-Fu, they are uninfluenced by Han arts. Insofar as Tibetan 'Kung-Fu' can be said to exist - the term refers to the Lion's Roar, although some claim that a Tibetan Ba-Gwa exists. The difficulty with that is the Daoist root of ba-Gwa is quite different to the Esoteric traditions of Tibetan Buddhism (Dorje Vayrayana) and of the Shamanaistic Bon-Po.

So, if you ask about Tibetan Kung-Fu, then strictly speaking you ask about Lion's Roar and its derivatives: Hop-Gar, Lama and Tibetan White Crane, if you ask about Tibetan martial arts:

"Rang-Soong Dag-Stay",

then you ask a separate question.

Tao.

RAIN
10-12-2002, 08:29 AM
tao yin lee :


i see you got a lot of info about lama pai and his people .
i am from Spain and i want to connect with people of his lineage but i don't know how or where start .

Tao-Yin-Lee
10-12-2002, 09:39 AM
Rain,

Forms vary enormously accrosss Pai, even those with the same name can be very different. If you mail me, I'll put you in touch with someone who should be able to help you.

Tao
www.tibetankungfu.com

BearBear
02-15-2003, 07:01 PM
this thread started with some interesting information...

all u hop gar , haap gar, bok hok, lama pai, lion roar (is that sameas lama pai?) people please continue ur informative thread ...

I for one am interested in more :)

take care

Tao-Yin-Lee
02-16-2003, 07:24 AM
They all have the same root: Sing-Lung Lama, the 1st Patriarch of Potala Palace Kung-Fu (Tibetan Lion's Roar Lama martial arts:
"Senge Ngwa Rang-Soon Dag-Stay Gen-Dun") to South China from Circa 1860, the art itself originating Circa 1426 at Potala Palace, Red Mountain, Lhasa, Tibet; the traditional home of the Dalai Lama's.

www.tibetankungfu.com

TkdWarrior
02-16-2003, 08:58 AM
<Perhaps a 'pilgramage' to Southern India would answer these questions. >
u can train at CVN Kalari in orrisa for 6 months it's much like Crash Course(6-7 hrs per day)...

from my understanding of Tibetan KF it hav influence from India n China both.

. Marma Adi (vital point - dim-mak equivalent) striking is included in the film, as well as ethnic medicine and a whole range of traditional weapons.
from wat i hav seen, their(DimMak n Marma) Marma(pressure points) charts are almost identicals.


from wat i hav seen in kalari it does resembles CLF n some of HsingI movements too(or i was hallucinating :D)
it's dieing art...
. they only used to teach to Warrior Families/caste or brahmins
. lots of stupid politics within south India itself then with Northern part of india

-TkdWarrior-

BearBear
02-18-2003, 05:37 AM
Intelligent
Swordplay of
the
Thought this might interest people who study lama pai

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/kungfu/lamasword.htm

Lama Style
Kung Fu

Lo Wai-Keung &
Yan Sang

74 pages, softbound

Printed in Hong Kong this neat little book is EN FACE,
that is, both Chinese and English versions are
represented. Not only a nice set with clear illustrations
but a good book for thos wanting to improve their martial
translation skills.

This is a straight sword set AND a short hand set from the
famous Lama School. Lama is a Tibetan form of Kung Fu
with various other names and associations such as Hop
Gar and Tibetan White Crane. The Lama school is a beautiful
Long Fist style with some rather different theories of body
relationships. Clear photography. Probably a little too sparse to learn
the set for most people but a good basic representation of the school.

diego
02-19-2003, 03:18 PM
BBear, thank you for that link. do you know any info on the masters in that book?....what lineage etc :)

Tao-Yin-Lee, you have any info on that book?.


james

Tao-Yin-Lee
02-20-2003, 11:28 AM
James, Si-Fu David Ross is your man for that book I expect. His Pai is closer to the line represented by it.

BTW check out the web site re Grandmaster Ng and Tony Galvin. Tony has supplied more information and some more galleries for the benefit of all Tibetan Pai/Sangha.

I'm hoping to host information on Dorje Lam as well as Senge Ngwa on the site.

buddhapalm
02-20-2003, 10:32 PM
Does anyone have the contact information for the Hop Gar Sifu Chuek Tse in Hawaii ?

Please e-mail me privately at teleka@pacbell.net

I believe he knew my Sigung.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

TibetanCrane
07-29-2003, 12:19 PM
Anyone else here practice any tibetan styles?
I myself am a student of tibetank white crane and tiger styles.

WanderingMonk
07-29-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by TibetanCrane
Anyone else here practice any tibetan styles?
I myself am a student of tibetank white crane and tiger styles.

Search for post by Lions Roar! or go here
http://www.tibetankungfu.com/ Lions Roar!'s web site.

wm

TibetanCrane
07-29-2003, 04:42 PM
yes, I am familiar with them. Nice guys

Tsuruken
07-29-2003, 08:31 PM
I study and teach Fukien White Crane:

http://home.austarnet.com.au/tsuruken

GARRA DE TIGRE
07-29-2003, 11:09 PM
hello tibetan crane . i study tibetan white crane . i'd learn some forms years ago . between them , lau sing kuen ( liu sin chuen ) .
do you know the form . would be cool search differences and similitudes .

HopGar
07-30-2003, 07:20 AM
I am a former student in Hop Gar. I'm not any more b/c I moved to Israel and the tibetan martial arts school is too big of a drag.

See ya

WanderingMonk
07-30-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by HopGar
I am a former student in Hop Gar. I'm not any more b/c I moved to Israel and the tibetan martial arts school is too big of a drag.

See ya
Hey HopGar,

What MA systems are in Isreal beside Karv Maga?

Thanks

wm

HopGar
08-01-2003, 02:43 PM
I actually have no clue to be completely honest, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a shaolin school, as well as several karate schools and TKD. The Tibetan MA school is in Hod HaSharon which is somewhere in the Tel Aviv area. I'm on a short vacation in the US at the moment, but I can do a search when I'm back next month.

See ya

WanderingMonk
08-01-2003, 03:33 PM
Thanks. I have been wondering what Isreali studied at home. The Krav Maga people in the US advertise themselves as more efficient, more effective, and zero non-sense. Don't need to put up with all these Asian cultural stuffs. Just teach you street effective stuff.

So, I was wondering if Krav Maga is the only thing that's studied there. Based on your assessment, you guys have a menu with multiple selection.

thanks.

wm

HopGar
08-03-2003, 10:33 AM
Actually, Krav Maga's most basic techniques are with a gun. That's because ALL soldiers learn it. Which means 3/4 of the country knows some Krav Maga. But I'm sure there is a huge selection. I don't know what the PPL in the USA are saying, but it doesn't sound right.

Firehawk4
03-02-2006, 06:49 PM
About there forms high level meditation and history , And the different kinds of Kung Fu styles from Tibet ? Also any good books on Tibetan arts ?

Cody
03-11-2006, 07:57 AM
You might find some of what you're looking for here:
http://lionsroar.name/site_map.htm

I have no personal experience with this material.

Cody

Steeeve
08-09-2006, 06:11 PM
From what I read all this version came from the lion roar...

Whats the difference between this system ?....Does all lineage are different from the same (I mean does lama pai are different from one lineage to another one hop gar different also)...Does the 8 are the number...

Sifu Lama pai does urs old videos of the lama pai are are disponible...to the public ... Ur video clips in the forum are very great...very skillfull...

Steeve

GeneChing
07-21-2017, 07:58 AM
Get to 8:25 on this Colbert vid.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5YJ7mh8zWc

So, anyone ever heard of Tescao before?

CharlesDaCosta
06-10-2020, 06:41 AM
Man I am going to get flamed but what else is new...

I am sorry Fu Manchu but if you do not practice sparring at all, than you are wasting your time and in a real life confrontation you could end up beat to **** or even worse dead.

When people mention such things as we do not spar because our systems techniques are very deadly or that their static training partners "let" themselves get thrown or attacked in a drill, than all you do is REINFORCE the basic fact that what you call traditional kung fu practice just creates dancers and not fighters.

All pretty moves and no determination...so very common.

Your sifu should teach you about the difference between self perfection and self peservation.

If you guys do not spar or have any "alive" training than your basics must be horrible and I hope that you find a realistic school that cares about its students survival in a world where anything can happen.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Regards



Some People just train for health, and not fighting.