Forced conversion

[fa_jing]

After 3 years (this time around) in the Martial arts, I have suffered my second concussion. I'm quitting for some time. If I come back, I would restrict myself to soft-style training. No sparring, just chi sao, forms, drills, etc. However, although these things may be effective ways of training one's martial devlopment, I just don't see it as being as fun as putting on the gloves and sportfighting. If I can't hit and be hit, I don't see what the point is of studying martial arts. I'm thinking of taking up a new hobby, like building model airplanes. Anyway I'm seeing more than ever the validity of the soft-training approach, however I don't see the appeal! What do you guys who don't spar, find fun about your training? Guess I'm feeling depressed and wondering whether the future holds any martial fun for me anymore.

[old jong]

Chi sau does'nt have to be ''soft''! You can really go for it and stop real hard shots just before impact. A good thing to do is throwing away the slaps and only strike when you have a perfectly powerful bomb and a perfect line for sending it.Working on controling the opponent structure is and endless study also.
IMHO, this develop Wing Chun skill without having to worry about getting hurt all the times.
Having a good stick is better than having your hands messed up with glue!...;)

BTW, One of my old friend was boxing when we were about 16. He was always hurt in someway;black eyes,broken nose,bumps on his head,sore ribs,damaged hand,you name it!....When asked why he was doing this to himself, he answered : ''But to defend myself, I don't want to get hurt if I get into a fight''!...;)

[aelward]

OJ quotes his friend:
> ''But to defend myself, I don't want to get hurt if I get into a
> fight''!...

LOL, yeah. So many people jack up the intensity of their sessions to train for that time when they actually have to use their skill.... and maybe, in their entire lives, they never will. So in the end, they have hurt themselves more in training.

That said, I do two approaches in martial arts: Wing Chun, and internal styles. And I must say that at this juncture in my life, the internal styles aren't all that exciting. Without randomization, partner drills, and the occasional hard knock, I have had to consol myself with the beauty of the forms, the relaxation, and the hope that I am doing some good for my body.

[reneritchie]

You can always add speed and power, but like driving towards a tunnel, it doesn't matter how big or fast your car is if you miss the entrance and hit the side of the mountain. By this I mean you can always slow down and mellow out and work path and precision until you heal up and then *step by step* re-introduce the speed and power (always maintaining the path and precision and stepping back again if you notice any lack of control or sloppiness emerge).

The sad thing is, WCK is such a robust art that you can bang your way to fairly good success (especially if you have a good fighting heart and/or athleticism) so a lot can be missed along the way.

BTW- I had a psych. friend who used to be called in to give therapy to soldiers just back from POW training. Some survived the training. Some regressed into the basements for long periods of time. Some developed near autistic traits and were no longer function. I forget what the odds of a Canadian soldier being taken POW and subject to detrimental treatment were, but it didn't seem to be as high as the number who suffered significant adverse effects from the training. (For a more martial example, check out how many pro fighters have trained themselves out of their fights recently (see Ortiz, Tito, among many others).

RR

[yuanfen]

sorry to hear of the problems. Concussions arent fun or healthy
and depending on how many and severity of those things some
lasting damage can occur.
Wing chun devlopment and chi sao are intricately inter- related.
Chi sao is not fighting- but there are different kinds of good chi sao- if you learn them enough you can WITH CONTROL do many
spontaneous things with partners. Anything short of real fighting
(where your life and limbs are really on the line) is an attempt at simulation- the cost -benefits vary with different versions of simulation.On the long run the ones with concussions give diminishing returns...
When you are feeling better check into the possibilities of getting intoa skilled chi sao program and being humble enough to re learn basics. I dont know what you have seen - but it is possible to have very fast and effective physical exchanges with control- without the concussions. Though accidents can of course occur.
I am sorry to hear about your situation but I am not completely surprised. Good wing chun is great and continuing fun.

[Marshdrifter]

I agree with the others that chi sao can have different intensities, depending on the situation.

To answer your question more directly, I find a lot of interesting things in doing the soft stuff. A lot of it lies in the joy in discovering the minutia within various aspects of the art, such as the stance and punching. There's a lot of facinating (to me, at least) things to work on. When working on the drills, I always focus on how good I can get it. During chi sao, I may have been able to counter what my partner was doing, but I try to think if there might have been a better (from a Wing Chun perspective) counter available to me.

Perhaps this'll start to get old after quite a few more years, as the little discoveries become fewer and ****her between, but for now I enjoy them.

The question isn't so much what I get out of it, but whether you'll get anything out of it. This is up to you. Why were you taking a martial art in the first place? I have a friend who practices martial arts because he likes the ability to get out aggression that has built up over time. Focusing on doing it a softer way isn't going to do much for him. I'm more interested in the art, the techniques, than fighting (although the ablility to fight is relevant).

I sort of hope that you find something more in practicing martial arts. There's a lot there to explore. If you feel that martial arts isn't offering you anything you want anymore, then by all means, get another hobby. Whatever you end up doing, however, I hope you strive to do the best you can. There's no point in doing any hobby half-assed.

[fa_jing]

Thanks for the responses. I enjoy all aspects of martial arts, but what the medium-to-full contact sparring and competition provided was, a final purpose to my martial development. For instance, I am not one to do a form for its own sake, rather I enjoyed practicing my forms because I thought it would make me a better fighter. I also enjoyed the contact, as much as one enjoys playing tackle football or wrestling and being slammed to the ground. It was a great way to relieve the stress of sitting on my butt all day in front of a computer. Self-defense is an admirable goal, but it was never a big focus for me - and in this day and age, I think situational awareness and use of the environment/weapons are more of a deciding factor than empty-hand skills.
In order to continue in the martial arts, I will have to undergo a psychological change in my approach. I'm taking a few months off to reconsider. I enjoyed my martial arts training back in my TKD point sparring days, and I enjoyed Wing Chun before I started sparring. So it's not hopeless. However, I won't be able to maintain the same level of enthusiasm (perhaps over-enthusiasm) and that's something I'll just have to live with. And, I would very much enjoy building model airplanes. My brain is very important to me and I'm not going to sacrifice my future for the sake of my youth.

[kj]

Thanks for sharing your self-reflection, Fa_Jing. You show maturity, not to mention a practical wisdom in caring for your head. ;)

Perhaps, before all is said and done, you may yet find a new or even deeper motivation to practice.

Best wishes in your continued growth, whatever roads you travel. Or skies you fly. Model airplanes are cool. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo


Originally posted by fa_jing
Thanks for the responses. I enjoy all aspects of martial arts, but what the medium-to-full contact sparring and competition provided was, a final purpose to my martial development. For instance, I am not one to do a form for its own sake, rather I enjoyed practicing my forms because I thought it would make me a better fighter. I also enjoyed the contact, as much as one enjoys playing tackle football or wrestling and being slammed to the ground. It was a great way to relieve the stress of sitting on my butt all day in front of a computer. Self-defense is an admirable goal, but it was never a big focus for me - and in this day and age, I think situational awareness and use of the environment/weapons are more of a deciding factor than empty-hand skills.
In order to continue in the martial arts, I will have to undergo a psychological change in my approach. I'm taking a few months off to reconsider. I enjoyed my martial arts training back in my TKD point sparring days, and I enjoyed Wing Chun before I started sparring. So it's not hopeless. However, I won't be able to maintain the same level of enthusiasm (perhaps over-enthusiasm) and that's something I'll just have to live with. And, I would very much enjoy building model airplanes. My brain is very important to me and I'm not going to sacrifice my future for the sake of my youth.

[Merryprankster]

Self-defense is an admirable goal, but it was never a big focus for me - and in this day and age, I think situational awareness and use of the environment/weapons are more of a deciding factor than empty-hand skills.

Definitely true.

Sorry to hear about this. It really sucks.

Have you considered a heavy groundgrappling art? Fewer concussions--lots of joint problems!! Slamming is illegal in most tournaments, and it's relatively easy to defend. Although accidents do happen...

Well, regardless, if the sparring and competition is what you crave, BJJ classes will offer that and you don't have to go to tournaments if you are worried about a concussion. Just tell your partner not to drop you on your head, and NEVER roll with the "big dumb newbie tough guy."

Good luck Fa_jing.

[wingchunalex]

you could just sparr and go to the body. its still lots of fun, plus you don't get hit in the head. you could at least do that with people you know and people at your school. now getting out of competition is would supose you would have to do, sorry about the bad luck.

[John D]

There is a terrible mix of danger (mostly accidental) and fun in most martial arts. It is important not to lose hope and find some enjoyment in WC. In my small club, it is my personal belief that all WC brothers/sisters must start everything at "Walking Speed" before moving faster. I also believe that WC is a partner system - a system that best works when your partner is helping you to draw out your skill. In return you will need to help your partner bloom.

Sadly, the personal egos (especially the male mind) often do not allow for the deep sharing of a "win-win" practice sessions.

There will come a time when all long-time martial artist must face the question of skill perfect and make a choice. You become faced with the questions of how and why to achieve the upper 10-15% of self-perfection and skill. The thirst for betterment is maddening for many....! In the end there is only three choices.

1) If you can choose to be the best of the rest, in which case you will need to hurt/destroy others or get hurt yourself. People who pick this path are very destructive to others with a few achieving some level of fame. Most people in this category end up with a bad reputation or dead! Miyamoto Musashi walked this path.....he got a lot of fame but left many widows and orphans behind.

To perfect your skill beyond the 85% competency level will only lead to destruction and/or death to yourself and others.

2) Choose to let go of the martial arts and return to your family and community. Take up some other cultured practice....

3) Become a martial arts teacher of your art and teach/share with others in a constructive and healthy way.

People who choose choice #2 and #3 know when enough is enough. Some may call people choosing choice #2 or #3 cowards, but I say these people are the true survivors of life! They know how to enjoy life and not struggle with the entanglement of perfection to feel alive.

In ending....I think you need to find yourself a practice partner that can work with you and not against you. These partners are hard to find but do not give up!!!! IMHO, it is far better to have one partner feeding the other partner punches and kicks than having both partners chasing the score at the same time!


Cheers,
John Di Virgilio

[Merryprankster]

John you are absolutely right!

Those who seek to be the very best of their field, who strive harder than the others and are blessed with natural talent, have done nothing but destroy and damage others, leaving a trail of destruction in their path. :rolleyes:

Or maybe some people can handle the workload/stress (Kimura), and some people can't (Mike Tyson).


IHMO, it is far better to have one partner feeding the other partner punches and kicks than having both partner chasing the score at the same time!

Recipe for thinking you can fight.

[Neurotic]

I have to totally agree with John on this one as well.

Only the people that I trust (and they trust me) am I willing to go relatively hard with.

I know full well that if they do follow through on something, it will be relativley pulled, or simply to show me the error of my techniques. Its not an ego thing, we both are just showing each other the error of our ways.

I remember a few months ago, a training friend of mine decided to do some light sparring with butterfly swords in between classes. Many of the beginners where totally terrified of the supposed 'crazy guys' who seemingly were trying to hack each other to pieces with metal practice swords.

The fact remains that but my friend and I trust each other not to be ego driven in these scenarios, and are also aware of the risks we are taking with each other, and do not worry too much about the occasional nick or cut. Hence we had a ball, and continue to do so whenever we do stuff like this.

If you are getting concussions, you need to look at the people you train with, and choose not to train with them.

That also being said - avoid full contact fighting when sleep deprived, hungry, dehydrated etc, as that is often when serious injuries occur.

Hope you find your way.

Neurotic

[Merryprankster]

I will agree that sparring is something to be done with people you trust.

I do not agree that concussions are "because the other guy was going to hard."

This is a training accident, and when you actually are doing what you are SUPPOSED to be doing, people get hurt occasionally.

[fa_jing]

Rather than respond to these general statements, I will offer my own experiences.

The first time I got a concussion, which was 2-3 years ago, one of my training partners did not exercise control, and let his ego take over. In what should have been a low risk situation, I got hurt, and he was to blame for that. He was suffering from a persecution complex, and was quite young, however his attitude has improved considerably since then, especially since he lost about 80 pounds. He still needs to mature more, but I no longer would have an issue with the way he spars.

This time around, I participated in a full-contact tournament. I participated in this out of my own choice. There is inherent risk in such a situation, which I chose to accept. I ended up with a mild concussion, but also a tremendous desire to train hard, protect myself better, and come back the next year and participate again.
I'd say this was a wash.

Unfortunately, I did not fully heal before participating in sparring again, two weeks later. I believe strongly in personal responsibility, and I freely accept the blame for this. I did no research on head injuries after the tournament. Still, it would have been nice if my Sifu had advised me not to do this. Unfortunately, it was a situation where his friend Dan stopped by class, he is really great to work with and is only rarely available, and we wanted to do a couple rounds of light sparring. We went very light, with the emphasis on control. However, I took a few light shots to the head, including a couple more substantial shots at the end. Things did escalate a little too much, and we were both to blame for that. In fact, I took Dan down at one point and acheived a mount, and afterwards I think he did want to show me a little bit. But, the thing is, it was my head that was hurting and my responsibility to remind him of that fact. I did say "stop" after the second-to-last shot, but in the heat of the moment he didn't hear me and stuck another in there. However, we took reasonable precautions and went overall very lightly by my standards. I look at this as accidental from my sparring partners' perspective, however from my perspective I shouldn't have been in there in the first place.

In short, it is important that you practice with people you can trust. If you decide to compete, there are both risks and rewards. It pays to inform yourself about injury. Even if your sparring partners do exercise control, accidents can happen.

I think I had a premonition that something like this was going to happen in relation to that tournament, but that is not proveable one way or the other, I just thought I'd mention it!