Monkey Kung Fu Question (Tai Shing Pekwar)

[Royal Dragon]

What are your thoughts on this artical??

Our style is paired with the Six Step Monkey boxing(I don't know any yet), which is much older than Tai Shing Pekwar (650 AD????), but i'm curious about this artical anyway.

Any Tai Shing Pekwar guys care to comment??



http://www.wle.com/magazine/monkeyKungFu.html

[Tainan Mantis]

Chi Jiguang's Ming Dynasty book mentions...
"...There are Six Step Fist, Monkey Fist and Hua Fist..."

No mention of Six Step Monkey Boxing.
This Ming Dynasty grammar often leaves out the comma which might make two style names look like one style.

18 Family Method which appears to be from the Song Dynasty mentions as #6 Sun Heng's Monkey Fist.
Interesting that Sun is the same surname as the fabled Monkey King.

Taishing Pekwar mentions that it only dates to 1911.
In fact it should be considered a modified version of Pi Gua Chuan and therefore has no apparent relationship to the Monkey styles of old.

[Royal Dragon]

Interesting. I have also heard that Six Step may be it's own style and seperate from the Monkey.

Tai Tzu is sometimes said to be a whole family of seperate but related styles of Hong Fist (The original Northern), Cha, Hua, Gun Chuan as well as the Southern Tai Tzu and Northern and Southern Monkey as well as some small animal systemsised versions of the Northern like Crane and Mantis.

All the above are similar except the Southern which is really a less mobile and tightened up version of the Northern that is expressed quite differently, and the Monkey system.

Now, it is said that the Emperor really had little impact on the Monkey style (unlike the rest that were greatly impacted if not completely developed by him). He apparently practiced the Monkey style to a very high level, and I'm sure he left his mark and all, but it is suposed to be really ancient and predate him by hundreds of years. Tis is kind of why I'm asking about it, and if the 1911 vesion is of anyrelation at all. I was thinking the founder might have had training in the original Monkey style prior to his "Incarceration". I didn't know it is based off of Pigua. It sounds like it would be a good thing for seasoned Baji guys to study.

Do you, or anyone else have any historical info on the ancient Monkey system that is said to be from 650 AD.?? I'm trying to get a grasp on the whole timeline from then to now, and it's possible corrilation to other styles besides Tai Tzu (Tai Tzu too of course)

[SifuAbel]

"In fact it should be considered a modified version of Pi Gua Chuan and therefore has no apparent relationship to the Monkey styles of old."

Wait a minute. Pek kwar is an ancient style.

It was based on the gibbon.

[Royal Dragon]

What is Gibbon??

Tai Shing Pekwar would be an evolved version of Pigua-Gibbon??

Actually, I thought Pekwar was a style developed by a wood cutter and THAT is why it was called Axe Fist. It was added to the Monkey as a primer for it I thought.

[Brad]

A Gibbon is some kind of monkey. It's my understanding that real Tai Sheng Pek Kwar teaches Pigua(Pek Kwar) for the first 10 years and only teaches the monkey style to closed door students.

[Tainan Mantis]

pekwar is Cantonese of Pigua.
Yuan means monkey or gibbon.
A type of monkey style is called Bai Yuan or White Ape. It is also called Tong Bei. This style comes from Hantong.
He was from the Song. Had a fight, supposedly, with the founder of Song Taidzu. Later they became friends.
This is a part of unconfirmable Chinese history.

To add to the confusion...
Pigua looks a little like Tongbei so sometimes it is called Pigua Tongbei.
Sometimes this version has been incorrectly called Tong bei. No relation.

Royal Dragon,
Where did you get the 650 AD info?

No evidence that Pigua predates the Ching dynasty.

[Royal Dragon]

Royal Dragon,
Where did you get the 650 AD info?
Reply]
I'm not sure, it was so long ago. Besides, I as not refering to Pigua, but to the Monkey Fist practiced along with the Tai tzu system and handed down through the Chao family. I have heard of it being called Tai Shing Men as well. I'm trying to figure out if Tai Sing Men and Tai Sheng Pekwar were related or not because I had read the artical I posted the link to. It got me 'awondering. :D

[Brad]

I've got a Tai Sheng Pek Kwar video(Chan Sau Chung's style, not Paulie Zink's) that has some demonstration of a couple of their monkey forms. What does your monkey look like?

[Royal Dragon]

I'm not really sure how to explain it. It is very low, but not actualy On the ground. there are some moves done on the knees. Sifu Abel would be a better guy to explain it, he is much better trained in that aspect of the system than I am.

[friday]

just wanted to confirm something isn't that michael and his sifu just fakes?

[Royal Dragon]

just wanted to confirm something isn't that michael and his sifu just fakes?

Reply]
Who is Michael, and who is his Sifu?

[Shaolin Master]

small correction :

PiguaTongbei is so called because in the 20's the original Piguaquan was modified by adding the essence of the 24 forms of tongbei, this became the new "piguaquan". Some weapons sets were also developed at the time.

So modern piguaquan and in fact that is most of it dates back to that period so that the style is sometimes reffered to as 'tongbeipiguaquan' as distinct from actual tongbei styles such as Wuxingtongbei, Baiyuentongbei etc..........

nowadays many believe to practice old styles but most of the time they are 'older' though not necessarily ancient.

[friday]

the ppl in the article who claim to be masters in the style that u had in your first post RD

i thought they were fakes.

[Royal Dragon]

Oh, Yeah, I had heard that too. It seems there was quite a comotion concernig that issue. a few years ago. I not really concerned about those specific guys though, just interested in seeeing if there is a link between the Monkey often taught with the Tai Tzu curiculem, and the one from the artical, that's all.

I really don't know too much about Monkey styles outside of the modern one mentioned in the artical.

I know Tongbei dates back to about the Early Sung dynasty, but I had never heard that a Tongbei master was freinds with Sung Tai Tzu (Chao, Kuang Yin) before.

[guohuen]

I'm pretty sure that story in the article is a complete fabrication.

[Royal Dragon]

You mean about the guy in Jail who developed the style by watching Monkeys from his cell?

What is the stated history from other lines who practice Tai Shing Pekwar?

[guohuen]

Probably most of the jailhouse story (there's hundreds of those) and all of the lineage story. Sorta smells like the docks in Portland to me.

[Richie]

The first person to practice Tai Shing Pek Kwar was Si Tai Gong Ken Tak Hoi. He was a Pek Kwar master that learned the Tai Shing style from the founder Si Jo Kau Tze. Si Tai Gong's Pek Kwar came from the Ming Dinasty. He then combined the two styles and created Tai Shing Pek Kwar.

I have seen a few different styles of Pek Kwar, and I am not going to fight about which is the oldest, the true one or first one.

Royal Dragon

Tai Shing style does not have a connection with the six step monkey style you mentioned.

[carly]

Does anyone have a list of the forms int he Pigua system - the monkey king's site didn't list them. Thanks.

[carly]

I saw that you wrote that you had obatined a Tai Sheng Pek Kwar video by Chan Sau Chung.
I'm interested in the style. Which video of his did you get and what were your impressions of the video and the style? Thanks.

[GeneChing]

Here our the TSPK resources we carry: Continuous fist (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/tcck001.html)
Ditang siping fist (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/tcck002.html)
Nine continents staff (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/tcck003.html)
Willow leaf broadsword (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/tcck004.html)
Chan sau chung cover story (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kunmag20mari.html)
Chan Kai Leung cover story (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf200110.html)

[jmd161]

RD,

Why don't you just e-mail them and ask them yourself?

I've e-mailed them before and they answered me right away it was like the next day it really surprised me.Chan Kai Leung answered me himself it was a total shock.

So go to the source and find out.

jmd161:)

[HopGar]

Just my two cents..
Intresting to point out that Lama Pai and all of tibetan styles, if I'm not mistaken, are also based on the movements of a gibbon (mixed with some crane also.)

I've never heard of six step monkey.

[carly]

I did e-mail them, several times, and never received a reply from them. Looking at their website they suggest that priority is given to responding to e-mails from people who buy their products and join their organization.

[carly]

Did you see my previous question to you in this thread?

[carly]

Which styles of pigua did you see, and what were they like/what were your impressions of the styles?

[carly]

Thanks - yes, I saw your ad for the Ditang siping fist video, etc.
You have them listed under Wu Shu instead of kung fu - is this intentional? Can you tell us a little about what the video shows? Are the basic ditang exercises and fundamentals included or just the form itself?
I wonder if this video, for instance, is the same video that the Vancouver organization sells as ditang siping.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by carly
I did e-mail them, several times, and never received a reply from them. Looking at their website they suggest that priority is given to responding to e-mails from people who buy their products and join their organization.


Hey carly,

That surprises me because when i e-mailed them he answered me right away.I know Chan Kai Leung does all the stuff on the site himself.I also noticed that there had'nt been much updates done in awhile.maybe he's very busy if i remember right he's also in school.I deleted the replys so i don't remember.

jmd161:)

[carly]

Thanks for the swift reply. If only all replies were so swift:)

[jmd161]

No problem

Sorry i could'nt be of more help to you.

jeff:)

[norther practitioner]

http://www.martialinfo.com/websites/monkeykungfu/matsuda.htm

There is a lineage tree here.

[carly]

someone please answer my questions:)
I've searched the web for all the available info and already came across Zink's lineage chart, and the controversy between the HK school and his lineage.

[Royal Dragon]

RD,

Why don't you just e-mail them and ask them yourself?

Reply]
I dunno, did'n tink about it.

Actually, I was just looking around a bit, and I think this thread answered my question. Apparently the Monkey system from Tai Tzu is different than Tai Shing Pekwar. I know someone who has been exposed to both, and the report was the Tai tzu (Six Step)Monkey is an older and more sophistcated system.

It is interesting to note, that it ws probably not developed by Tai tzu masters, an d is said to date back to about 650 AD. It was apparently incorperated into the system by Chao, Kuang Yin, based on the verbal history stateing that he practices the art in addition to other stuff.

I haven't compared yet, but my next thing it to look into any similarites between our Monkey system, and Tong Bei (White Ape)

Unfortunetly, I only have one Southern set of our Monkey system, and a modified for competiton version of part of one of our Northern sets documented. (A spectacular performance by our very own Sifu Abel I might add)

Also, it appears now that Six Step is not a descriptive of the Monkey we do, but a complete other Tai Tzu branch. There was a "," missing on the sheet, and I have been erroniously calling our Monkey "Six Step" by accident. Tai Shing Men or tai zhu men is more acurate I think.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

(A spectacular performance by our very own Sifu Abel I might add)



RD,

SifuAbel is awesome is'nt he?

I've seen him in action many times in the past. Really sad that he had to move to Cali:(

Although i'm very happy for him. :D

jmd161:)

[carly]

Can you tell us about what your version of monkey is like?

[Royal Dragon]

It's hard to describe, I have only minimal exposuer to it. Even that is from two different Tai tzu lines all together. One is the base Southern set that has dynamic tension exercises added to it, and the other is Abel's modified competition set.


I do know that there are 8 Southern Monkey sets, and 8 Northern Monkey sets and they are often taught after a more standard Tai Tzu system like the little 6 set Southern system, or the more well known 10 set Northern system.

Somewhere, I saw some of the Southern Monkey from tai tzu online in a video clip. The same group of clips also showed a trademark arm blocking/stiky hands twoman set, but the links never said the sets were tai Tzu. I only recognised them as such from video documentation I have on the style that originated in Taiwan.

I downloaded the footage, so if I can't find the link I may up load it to my site and post it for you if you like.

[David Jamieson]

Tai Hsing Pek War, as referred to by Gene's links is promoted in Canada and Hong Kong (and anywhere in the world it's practitioners live) can be found at

http://www.chinesekungfuonline.com

The style contains a lot of Shaolin flavour to be sure. At least from what I've seen at his site and in his articles, pictures etc etc.

Looks like good Kung Fu to me.
They offer a few programs at the site. I'm not sure if they do distance learning but the old man's been around for a while and has many merits to his favour.

peace

[Royal Dragon]

Hmmmmm, I'm not so concerned about TsPkwr, but more wheather or not it had historical ties to the Tai zhu men of the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan style. It appears that they are two totally different systems.

[David Jamieson]

RD-

The history of Kungfu is like the history of fire. :)

It's been around for a long time, it still burns and there's new ways of lighting it as time moves forward.

peace

[monkeywoman]

I can't tell from your many posts what style you are actually interested in. Is it Monkey style or is it Piqua? If it is Monkey style, I will tell you that the so called monkey king will not give up much. I went to one of his seminars and he spent the majority of the time bad mouthing Paulie Zink. Then he showed a lame "shaolin like" Pe Kwar form that looked like basic long fist. We kept telling them we didn't care about his opinion of Paulie Zink but he seemed intent on making money and trash talking. If it's piqua your interested in I have done workshops with two great teachers on both coasts here in the US. I know of a few others too. If you tell me your location, I can tell you where you need to go. Piqua methods of training are more important than any forms. If you want to learn this system you need a teacher who can show you the training methods. You can't learn these things from a book or a web site. You have to get out there and do the Pai Da stuff and all the basics.

[jmd161]

So many ppl want to learn monkey kung fu around the world that it is a money making machine.I don't blame them because monkey style is very effective.I had'nt been to the website of Tai Shing Pek Kwar in awhile ,but decided to check it out today.This is one of the many things i found there that amused me.


Performing in the public is the best way to gain confidence and prove your kung fu skill. Upon completion of the form with satisfying result, you could wear our tradition kung fu uniform to compete in the tournament. You have to win first place in each form (Ying Yeung Fist, Pek Kwar Staff and Pek Kwar Sweeping Step) to fully complete this level. Each competition must have at least 6 competitors. We guarantee that the forms are some of the most appealing and intriguing kung fu forms in the world. These forms are award winning and are performed in the Master level. You will win if you are dedicated and train hard.

Now what gets me is that you have to take first place in each form to complete level 1 of their Video Certified Monkey Kung Fu Program.I see Chan Sau Chung in a different light now. He used to always say that you need a good sifu to fully understand kung fu and grow. Now if you have money and a VCR you can become a master of Tai Shing Pek Kwar.

I guess times have changed huh?

My sifu refuses to bend in any way when it comes to his kung fu knowledge.I hope he stays that way.He is asked on a daily basis by companies to do videos and sell them he always refuses.

jmd161:)

[Royal Dragon]

I dunno, Videos are not bad. I think that the requirement to take afirst place is a good thing. Trial by fire you might say. I wuld also point out that after a certian point, say intermediate level, a students should not advance without live review and training directy under the master that put out the video.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
I dunno, Videos are not bad. I think that the requirement to take afirst place is a good thing. Trial by fire you might say. I wuld also point out that after a certian point, say intermediate level, a students should not advance without live review and training directy under the master that put out the video.

RD,

You have to understand that you are part of a very low percentage of ppl that can learn from a video and be good.I know another guy that learned Hung Gar from video and is pretty good ,but that is not the norm.I agree you can learn somethings from video ,but you do need live review and training directy under the master that put out the video.

jmd161:)

[Royal Dragon]

"but you do need live review and training directy under the master that put out the video"

Reply]

I agree completely. the video alone is not enough. You need a solid foundatin in the proper mechancics and principasl, as well as some sort of peer review where the peer is also versed in the proper fundementlas and mechancis.

To be honest, I am one of the "Few" because I suround myself with guys who have real talent and knowledge who coach me in the proper sturctre, mechanics and fundementals that I then take back and appliy to the forms I worked out from video. I also solicit the opinion of many people that i consider to be experts in thier field, and this helps me develop the eye to decide what is correct and what is not correct.

That, and I have been doing Kung Fu now in one shape or another for a really long time (10+ years now), so much of what I am seeing is just different flaors or expressiosn of principals I already know.

No way on earth a pure beginner could do what I am doing. You have to have a live teacher to at least get your fundementals down right first.

In the end, what I develop will be MY version of the style, just based on the wacky way I'm learning it.

[carly]

Dear monkeywoman:
+
carly,
I can't tell from your many posts what style you are actually interested in. Is it Monkey style or is it Piqua?
+
I am interested in Pigua. I live in eastern canada, and I was interested in the arrival of an HK school that taught Pigua as part of itds program.
I'm not interested in hype or KF style politics or power struggles.
Thank you for your helpful and interesting reply to my repeated questions. The seminar sounds funny in an awful way:)
I tried to e-mail you here but your e-mail was turned off. Please e-mail me with an address I can respond to you at.
And, yes, please tell me who and where the seminars are on Pigua, I'm very interested.
I'd also like to hear about Pai Da and training methods, anything you can tell me would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks again.

[Davemantis]

Thought some of you might be able to help me out iv been trying to get some of chan sau chungs website and email address in the uk but cant get it to come up ? do any of you know why or do any of you have the email address for them ??

thanks

[Eddie]

CSC is in canada. he has a student here flying monkey who can help you. he will probably reply soon.

Sifu Chow Keung is also now in Canada. Probably for another few weeks

[golden arhat]

why fight someone like a monkey when you can fight someone like a man ?

[Yao Sing]

Why fight someone like a man when you can wrestle with a woman?

What was the topic again?:p

[Yao Sing]

Apparently there are a lot of monkey fighters considering all the poo flinging around here.