return fire??? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Tao-Yin-Lee

10-12-2002, 08:01 AM

Tibetan Buddhism has given rise to some of the most violently aggressive of martial arts systems: Lion's Roar, Hop-Gar, Lama, Tibetan White Crane...

The practitioners of these styles certainly hit back and are guided by principles such as 'Chon' (ruthlessness and destruction).

Tibetan Buddhism is an extremely complex area. His Holiness the Dalai Lama is a Nobel Peace prize holder, and certainly preaches pacificsm and non-violence. Given how his country has been treated since 1949 this is a noble thing.

However, Tibetan Dorje (Tantra/Vajrayana) Buddhism is a tradition that allows the utilization of any path including violence and aggression in order to transform the practitioner from raw instinct into transcendent spirit.

Tibetan Buddhism in a martial arts context - the direct context offered by Sui's original question, is far from meek, or passive about accepting an offer of violence.

Tao
www.tibetankungfu.com

HuangKaiVun

10-12-2002, 01:06 PM

One should ALWAYS strike back.

However, usually "physical" striking is NOT the answer.

There are ways to strike back that don't involve assault and battery.

LiLong

10-13-2002, 12:39 PM

Sifu says to be "Passively Agressive"... meaning that u should not seek out a fight, but if someone wants to harm you that you should demonstrate what you have learned.

cheers:D

bong

10-13-2002, 03:35 PM

Steve, what would Socrates or any of the other Western pundits that
you hold above all have to say about being hit first?

Surely Socates sucker-punched a few people in his day!

Sui

10-13-2002, 04:22 PM

so gentlemen it is justified apart from"sho's" answer which i do desire and thank sho for.

tao yin lee,you are correct with the question at hand although the anwer is yet to come for me,help us out will you?

to be totally honest with you kung lek i don't know why i do martial arts?and i also believe that kung fu is not martial arts,so is that why you do martial arts to strike back when struck?

li long,i'm sorry but,i in my experience,i use to live the "Passively Agressive" way but it still leads me to the question"should i hit back?"can you help me futher?

thanks for all the answers gents but we are still far from the truth.
thanks again

sui

taijiquan_student

10-13-2002, 07:31 PM

"i also believe that kung fu is not martial arts"

?????????

jon

10-13-2002, 08:01 PM

Great topic for a thread sui :)
In my humble opinion it really depends on the level of threat.
This may sound kind of obvious but no one has really said anything about this yet.
eg Some 12 yo kid comes up to me by himself and demands my wallet with what looks to me like a small pen knife, his hands are shaking badly and its obvious he hasnt done this much before. Am i truely justified to break this kids arms and legs? Maybe legaly (barely) but moraly HELL NO!

Flip side...
Im walking alone at night in a deserted area (Yeah im a bright one) and suddenly im stopped by two guys. They both seem friendly if a little thick asking me for directions. Behind me i start to hear footsteps. I turn around and see two more moving into postion behind me. Nervously i turn back to the original pair who inform me not to worry there just his friends and they mean me no harm.
How is my justification to blast strait through one on my way to anywhere else in a hurry?

Wether or not to strike is a VERY difficault decision. What happens in the blink of an eye can have a profound effect on either your mental or physical state for a long time to come.

To me this is a puzzle where commen sence and logic should dictate the path. No old proverb or words of wisdom can really do this problem justice.
I would LIKE to assume that this is also why our teachers spend to long testing our charactor.

jon

10-13-2002, 08:12 PM

Stiking BACK...
If however you are directly refering to actualy striking 'after' you have been struck then i would still say go with commen sence.

If im struck by the leader of a pack of twenty big guys then trust me when i say hitting them back will not be as high on my list of prioritys as getting the heck out of there.

The same should really be said for any type of combat situation.
Hitting someone'back' should be the last thing on your mind. Simply getting rid of the threat in front of you by whatever means nessersary is whats paramount.

This rings true for most types of fighting but one HIGHLY important thing is to have the right mindset. If your trying to 'win' then you WILL be beaten by someone trying to 'survive' as they are totaly different mindsets.

All this great thinking of course go's strait out the window in your average martial arts class. Usualy your 'sparring' and not actualy trying to actively 'kill' each other. Still its an important sentiment to remember.

So having said that if im actualy 'attacked' my first intinct is to get the heck to saftey using whatever means are nessersary. If its just simply running then tops, if i have to step over a few others to get there then so be it. Survival instinct is different to pride and MUCH more powerfull.

As a side note to that...
Dumb as it sounds i have still often recieved little bits of teachings on actual 'battlefield' skills.
Ie where something needs to actualy be done as well as simply getting your but home in one peace.
In this situation ive been taught thats its better to pick destinations than targets. In other words you pick a spot you want to get to and then you simply mow though who ever is in your way to get there. This keeps the same 'survival' mentality as your body still feels like its attempting to get the heck out of there.
This go's back to the old commanders logic of 'take the hill' not simply 'kill em'.

fiercest tiger

10-13-2002, 10:08 PM

Depends on what the person has done to me or ive done to him for me to get a serve!

I wouldnt hurt someone for the sake of it, but if i was attacked ill try my best to injure so he will think twice about doing it again.

good topic bro!

FT:)

Tao-Yin-Lee

10-14-2002, 01:51 AM

Sui,

My answer was framed in specific context, for Sho.

Others seem to be answering the broader context of your question.

Tao
www.tibetankungfu.com

Sui

10-14-2002, 06:32 AM

hi jon,
in context of course common sense is the right attitude for survival and you are correct,however the question at hand does not sugest otherwise i'm afraid,to which predicament you or i put ourselfs in.
eg you and i in a test of hands or you dis-respect my family or i do something to your mom,something along those lines?or i owe you money or you owe me money etc.(a feud).also would you jon take advantage of your skill over some-one who you know is less of skill than you?just curious.thanks,sui.

f.t,yes i understand as its with me too,but again at what costs?when you know they are not skilled as you are,would you still hit them back when attacked?
i had an arguement with my niece and her boyfriend at that time stepped in,now in chinese its dis-respectful to do that and i ended up striking him back[pressed his striking arm,so he did not touch me so]his skill is far from what i learn.now that is what i call "passive agression".after that i did not practice the movements of kung fu for nearly a year,all because of this question,is it justified;everyone i talked to said yes.but i,myself am not convinced?

taijiquan_student,you may not agree but martial arts stems from the army,war battle etc.kung fu is solitude,to seek within.
now a few members here go on at me for having terrible grammar.but i will say this;poetry in a fundementle context is higher and rhetoric higher still to grammar.this is true also you could see it with martial arts and kung fu.internal to you like bagua,tai chi etc is still kung fu to me.bagua before tai chi in my experience,and before that wing chun,pak mei,karate,judo etc they are stages not levels of climbing a mountain.do not forget there is a descent of that mountain too?

tao yin lee
oh i see,
"Sui's original question, is far from meek, or passive about accepting an offer of violence."
sorry but i don't comprhend this?

p.s jon i'm still not a good person,but am glad you came.cheers[yam buiy]as you can see the change in my writing?

sui

Tao-Yin-Lee

10-14-2002, 06:53 AM

Sui,

That is a misquote, what I said is:

"Tibetan Buddhism in a martial arts context - the direct context offered by Sui's original question, is far from meek, or passive about accepting an offer of violence"

Referring to the context of your question about martial arts and hitting back, and addressing Sho's point about Tibetan Buddhism.

Tibetan Martial arts, specifically in the Lion's Roar tradition, are derived directly from the heart of Buddhism: The Lotus Sutra (see the Buddha's discourses on the Lion's Roar on www.tibetankungfu.com).

Tibetan Buddhism is a living paradox, which is entirely appropriate for a Tantric (Dorje) path. Yes, it preaches compassion, but it has also practiced extreme violence in sectarian wars between the various Lamasary schools, and, produced a fighting tradition who's principles start with an attitude of 'Ruthless Destruction' (Chon).

Tibetan Buddhism is extremely complex and simplistic abstractions will never do its understanding any justice.

Tao

ZIM

10-14-2002, 07:20 AM

An art is only a vehicle for whatever your intention is. Thr reaction you train for may not ber the one you will intend in the future situ. So train the spirit, too.

So if you are intending to take 'high road' and not harm the other, the art should allow you to do this if it is complete, IMO.

What I am looking at is no one has looked at what you have meant by "HIT back". Hit can be many things, and (example) restraining can still be done with maximum aggression. or compassion. Aikido is one example of that, but I think any art can be compassionate if the fighter wants to be.

brothernumber9

10-14-2002, 07:34 AM

I was sitting next to a guy in a junior college library several years ago and he got hit in the head with a pistol, i think if he tried to hit back he'd be dead, and probably me too. a lot of people like to think that if they get hit that they would do what ever they pre concieve they would do in thier imagination of such an instance, but when it happens it just happens, you really don't have time to think unless you train yourself to. What I'm saying is it might not matter if you should or shouldn't hit back if most of what you do in such situations is react without analyzing, and chances are if you train in kung fu and sparred or fought then you have trained yourself to hit back as long as you are able to. On the other hand you could train not to hit back but that would involve just getting hit alot and never doing anything about it, subscribing to that method would probably accumulate to alot of headaches, but if thats what floats your boat then happy sailing.

David Jamieson

10-14-2002, 08:22 AM

seriously, if I was struck by someone, you can be sure I would strike them back.

having a gun pointed at your head is an entirely different scenario...apples and oranges.

"Kung Fu" as a blanket term references "chinese martial arts" to those that have the basic understanding. IE 90% of martial artists.

As a path of living, it means to do your best and excel at all you do, be it eating, breathing, making love, reading, storytelling, all of it, to be skilled in a given field is to have "kungfu" in that field.

Don't you think "kungfu" is about your ability to defend yourself and others at the level we a speaking of?

postulating on the "what ifs" is a waste of time. Hit em back!

meanwhile...
peace

SETANSI

10-14-2002, 09:48 AM

Don't hit htem back.
Hit them first.:D

taijiquan_student

10-14-2002, 09:51 AM

"martial arts stems from the army,war battle etc.kung fu is solitude,to seek within."

Martial arts (kung fu included) not only are about fighting, but include the spiritual or mind aspects you mention as well. This distinction between martial arts and kungfu--show me the historical basis for this. Any kind of chinese martial art could be termed "kungfu". I'm not looking for some fluffy, trite phrase--if what you're saying about kungfu being different from martial arts isn't true, then that's that. I respect your opinion, and you're free to practice however you like, but to say any chinese martial art is not really a martial art is just plain wrong. It is an incorrect statement.
Back up your statement, please.

Sui

10-14-2002, 10:52 AM

taijiquan_student,not to be argumentative,but i don't mean

" but to say any chinese martial art is not really a martial art is just plain wrong. It is an incorrect statement.
Back up your statement, please."

i have not put that statement down so i can't back it up,sorry and like i said you may not agree.what i meant is what kung lek wrote:

"As a path of living, it means to do your best and excel at all you do, be it eating, breathing, making love, reading, storytelling, all of it, to be skilled in a given field is to have "kungfu" in that field."

sort of

brothernumber9,again common sense to survival.

kung lek,you are telling me that its justified,do you feel nothing after when you have hit back?i'm not convinced that it is justified.i know i have the problem and how is it justified?
also what about the other 10 percent?

kung lek honestly i don't know if "kungfu" is about your ability to defend yourself and others at the level we a speaking of?"
to defend:strikes me as to put to right,now what puts me rightiouse to hit back?eg 2 wrongs don't make a right? its like,i think about things of"the penantant man kneels before god" and "vengence is mine said god"so do you get where i'm comming from?

zim carry on,i think i follow but unsure
to hit back as to strike with intent of what you have trained for,yes wether it would be arm break,hit with hands etc.

tao thanks and sorry for the mis quote,what do you think?is it justified?

thanks fellas
sui

Fu-Pow

10-14-2002, 10:53 AM

Setansi said it best.

Don't hit them back, hit them first.

If you know that you're going to get hit, why wait to get hit?

Let me make one other point. Higher level martial arts let you determine your level of destructiveness. Higher level martial arts have a higher level of control either to be gentle or to destroy. And because of this increased capacity to destroy the mind must also have a greater degree of control...especially over emotions. .

Let me provide an example. In my opinion, the worst people to spar are beginners. For this reason.....they have no control....physical or mental. They don't know when to pull a punch. They simply don't know how. They are more clumsy and their movement is unrefined. In addition they hit at weird angles and use weird inefficient movements. Most of the time they miss but occassionally they hit you because the angle and timing of the punch is so weird. And when they hit they hit really hard because they don't know how to control there inherent strength.

In addition beginners do not have the requisite mental control. If you hit them they get angry and their adrenaline swells up. They don't know how to deal with those emotion. They get angry and they try to hurt you. One time this happened and I had to physically grab the guy I was sparring and slam him down on the ground because I kicked him and he was jumping up and trying to break my nose.

So on two levels this is what martial arts is designed to train...the mind and the body. This is where "modern martial arts" fail. They train people to be killing machines but they feed there training with anger and a wish to dominate. They lack the mental training of traditional martial arts.

ZIM

10-14-2002, 01:40 PM

I agree with many things posted so far. But someone (macyoung?) sayd that martial artists (and kung fu types:D ) sometimes do stupid things.

Someone here thought about a scene where he was surrounded by four people. I think only a martial artist would stand and fight where he was. A beginner or untrained person would get away or at least out from being surrounded. This is just strategy and a wise one. Maybe this is what is meant by having a beginner's mind? LOL

IMO, arts should teach this "commin sense" too, but too often it is just "punch them in the face and fast" like a big macho thing. like i'm saying, a complete art (or just complete TRAINING) should allow for other reactions to occur too). This just keeps us human and not stupid. Arts are about surviving first, then about winning. Think: you are in a war, you need to survive and win. to die and win is second best.

IMO, an art should not take away or replace your common sense. Any way i agree that if you are being hit, then hit back- you have to stop somebody from hitting you. that's common sense too:D

andoi

10-14-2002, 02:22 PM

hi Sui
pls check out my out my response to jons thread "fighters.... well fight, as everyone else seems to have missed my point, i think you may understand what i mean....as for the gun situation well on several occasions i have been confronted with weapons and usually you will do exactly what you are told .....BUT this is not neccesarily good for you ......you can fight back and maybe die or you can obey and inside you become a real mess.....infact even if you fight back and win you can still suffer the truama for a long time ....if you dont find a understanding of what has happened to you, you will go crazy...i am very lucky bcos i found an answer before it was too late but trust me when i say that the ppl here who are saying hit them for sure have probably never been involved in a serious(i dont mean school yard scraps) situation....if you are feeling bad about striking back that is a very good sign

fiercest tiger

10-14-2002, 04:22 PM

There are many techniques that could be used, but i wouldnt stand there and cope a smack in the chops and not return one! As being your family different story, my way would have been a more humain return...lol its all fun and games till someone looses an eye, then its all fun!

maybe a a good b!tch slap would have did a job , but if you train iron palm that could be a problem!?

dont stress over it mate.

Garry FT

Yum Cha

10-14-2002, 07:53 PM

Interesting thread. Lots of different interpretations, from school-boy honour spats to life and death encounters with overwhelming odds against you.

Sui, always stimulating, but Andoi is the one that brought me in on this one. (Perhaps you would share some of your poetry. Show me yours and I'll show you mine...)

In my life I have met many martial artists whom have failed to defend themselves and been spiritually damaged inside, perhaps more so than on the outside. Past outside all the martial romance, violence is not clinical, nor academic nor predictable.

What are we really talking about? I think fear, pride and survival.

It has long been said that the greatest coward is the one that applies the most overwhelming violence out of fear. Fear that they are cowards or incapable. Bullies. Wife beaters. A self fulfilling prophesy without relief.

Pride has caused many people to reply to insignificant slights with violence un justified. Road Rage? He looked at my girlfriend's ass, he pushed me, etc. On a school-boy level this is how most of us experienced our battles, but like most pride battles, it's mostly ceremonial. If you doubt yourself, your pride is most likely what you doubt.

Nearly 30 years of martial arts has helped me overcome my fear, and to trust my pride, and I suspect I am not alone.

Survival - who can really say until they have been there? Jon, you mentioned getting surrounded. Too late. You hear those footsteps, you move. You're stopped, you react and run. Experience tells you when you're getting into trouble, your mind tries to tell you it's OK sometimes, but your instincts know better. Trust your instincts.

Weapons: Kinda takes the pride issue out of the question, eh? Survive or get fukked up. What can you do but train your instincts? Kill or be killed? Survival against the odds is a victory in itself, or death before dishonour?

Sacrifice - protection of the weak, defense of a principle, again, it's not black and white is it?

Pacifism? It will keep you out of trouble, but it won't get you out of trouble. Buddhists learned that a long time ago. Who was more powerful, Gandhi or Hitler? Martin Luther King or George Wallace?

Jon made a good point too, think of where you want to be. It goes beyond space.

So, to hit back? It depends on a lot of things, but mostly perhaps on your own issues, not on those of your antagonist, in all but the most dangerous of survival situations, time of war, the protection of others, etc...

So, does this dovetail with the Art in martial art? I know a lot of athletes who think they are practicing an Art but who aren't. What makes an art? Innovation, creation, principle andaesthetics applied in a cohesive manner? Is there an art to fighting? Or is the art in not having to fight?

Sorry, more questions than answers. Don't you just hate that...

jon

10-14-2002, 08:40 PM

sui
An interesting discussion, im still not 'really' sure to exactly your aluring but i think im starting to understand where your going. To be totaly honest my opinions even two weeks ago would have been different. Ive done a lot of thinking on such things as of late, one of the many conclusions ive come to is one you have asked about yourself.

"eg you and i in a test of hands or you dis-respect my family or i do something to your mom,something along those lines?or i owe you money or you owe me money etc.(a feud).also would you jon take advantage of your skill over some-one who you know is less of skill than you?just curious.thanks,sui."
* This is where i say it comes down to commen sence.

Test of hands: I follow you, only as much power as is needed to stay competitive and insure you can still feel my intent. To go hard to start would only invite you to be the most brutal the fastest.

Family being disrespected: Ive learnt to stay clear of such things, then again if anyone trys to actualy HARM my family - different kettle of fish.
Recourses of words will usualy be responded to in kind by me but of late ive come to realise even this is often futile and a waste of energy which would be better spent on things which are actualy of benifit. Usualy i do it for the fun of it rather than to prove any points. If an insult is unfounded then to be honest its not really much of an issue.

Money: If im dumb enough to owe you money and havent paid and you want it back then i guess i only have myself to blame for what may happen.

Now the most important thing...
Would i allow myself to take advantage to my skill base... even on someone i know is not of the same level.
Certainly. Again however totaly dependent on the situation.
If you confront me alone at night in the streets and start asking me dumb questions and trying to get within my personal space then know well ill run strait over the top of you without a moments thought. If however some dumb young punk decideds to actively 'challenge' me to a fight then ill simply walk away.

This is what i keep saying. You must utalise your own mind and judge based purely on circumstance. There is no point in trying to decide what you 'would' do.

The example which i used of being surrounded i think has possibly been a little misunderstood.
My intension was to point out that of COURSE something bad is about to happen no matter what there telling me. The best bet is to simply hit fast and hard and go the hell through the gap.

The intension behind the kid with the knife is i could proberly simply bolt or refuse and nothing would happen.

There is a BIG difference between a true threat to your body and one you have invented as a threat to your ego.

Its kinda like living in the sea, when your a tiny little fishy you have to be worried about the medium fishys, you feed on scraps and the mini fishys. When you become a medium fishy you have to worry about the biggest fishys but you can eat the smaller ones :) When your a biggest fishy you can eat the medium fishys but the little ones just dont really satisfy and are not even worth the effort of chasing considering the meal, still gotta watch out for those sharks!
When your a shark...
You can eat the biggest fishys - but there SO hard to find:(
The medium ones are barely worth your time, the small ones are just simply swam strait by - even they know your no threat.
Just whatever you do dont annoy the leader of the pack, or even the other sharks. Get enough of em offside and you have problems.

lol its kinda like the foodchain if you catch my drift - bad pun intended :p

jon

10-14-2002, 08:49 PM

andoi

Not sure if you caught it but i did actualy respond to you in that thread, even if a little late.
I really liked your post and your thoughts and they were actualy something i took on board. Im trying to be a little less combat heavy of late and trying to just enjoy my training for what it is. I still love to spar and what not but im starting to see the silly side of it as well.
Either way thanks for your reply in that thread and it certainly didnt go to waste.
All the best
Jon

Sui

10-15-2002, 05:21 AM

sorry gents but it seems that survival is getting in the way of what i intend to discuss.

with survival is of course do or die but the question is not for these senarios that would help.i will hit back to survive.what i'm talking about is the intent behind hitting back,now we as martial artists will put ourselves out of danger first and the question remains "should i hit back?"is it out of pleasure that we do so after putp pressing the arm of our opponant.or is it out of baostfulness that we hit back?

f.t,like i said privatly i don't get emotional over family matters like with my nieces boyfriend.but the result of that situation is that he could of killed me and i thought that it shouldn't have got to him trying to hit me in the first place.the result we don't speak,i am not forgiven and maybe my pride gets in the way to apologise?either way what i'm tryin to say,with all my training i could have prevented it all happenning.eg not confront him[the argument with my niece was about drugs]in that momment of time,avoid for only god know what could of happened?
ok,what has happened has happened and my mother made me see clearly,now no regrets.but the whole senario is not wether i should of hit back but now "should i hit back?"

which leads me to yum and jon.
from now till i die what are the possibilities of me getting hit?problably none if i have this question at hand?i'm not saying wether i can hit back, i'm sure i can.lol you see i believe that we do it to ourselves,why?that what i would like to hear?therefore i put myself before you.
the possibilties of meself getting hit are high if i do not have that question in mind for i will strike back,and to strike back you must be struck.like i said in survival this question has no bearing,but is still not a waist of time,i am sure of that.

andoi,this is maybe how we differ sad to say but we have the same passive views.this is a philosophy and not a way,some may say that they are the same but they are not imo and they are in conjuction with each other.
i will leave you with this thought:
if it is a good thing not to hit back then if your wife got raped and your daughter was slaughtered,to come home and find the man still in your home then with all your training you would do more than hit back,would you not? "vengence is mine said the lord our god" when you have done without thought then"the pentant man will kneel before god"
p.s its not a question of survival or defense or to protect,is it?

now gents i am not christian faith yet i do listen when the time arises.

jon a test of hands,if i hug and kiss your cheek with a smile,i'm sure you wouldn't hit me back but then again did i strike you?

thanks guys
sui

Sui

10-15-2002, 06:19 AM

sorry f.t i battered the hell out of my nieces boyfreind and not proud of it.

ZIM

10-15-2002, 06:25 AM

from now till i die what are the possibilities of me getting hit?problably none if i have this question at hand?i'm not saying wether i can hit back, i'm sure i can.lol you see i believe that we do it to ourselves,why?that what i would like to hear?therefore i put myself before you.

I think this is closest to what you are after? but u may need to explain more?

If i gotit, I think u mean "I can keep mindful on possibily being hit but maybe thats fear? or paranoid? or maybe it just keeps me from being hit? (like defensive mindset)" either way, you still are not being hit.

But this is curious- you say we do this to ourselves. u mean by training to hit all the time? or thinking about hitting all the time? so we get into more fighting when maybe we shouldnt? (like being on edge? or making a big deal out of things that arent a big deal?) Maybe this is a question of having only one tool, like a hammer, so everything is a nail (or better be or u lose out)

In the case of someone doing evil in the world I think maybe it's justice to "hit" them. this is maybe the vengeance u were talking about. maybe it just keeps others from being harmed, but this is hitting first. If u are a pacifist or believe in non-violence then your options are different and many arts cant help much, IMO. Is this the question u want to pursue (non-violence vs, violence? and having options?)

sanjia

10-15-2002, 08:27 AM

sui : "what i'm talking about is the intent behind hitting back,now we as martial artists will put ourselves out of danger first and the question remains "should i hit back?"is it out of pleasure that we do so after putp pressing the arm of our opponant.or is it out of baostfulness that we hit back?"

I would venture that to hit back in the context of the above is indeed 'out of boastfulness' as you put it. If the very real perception of any danger is eliminated then there is, no need.

Mark

Sui

10-15-2002, 08:48 AM

ZIM,i have read and read and read your post,and i must say that i'm totally blown away with the endless possilities,and i keep reading for some reason trying to get the right tone.

you see it is I with the problem with the"question"and i know that you aid so please carry on though it has no"label"[defensive mindset]together you can enlighten i'm sure for i feel a sensation?i was hoping for jon to take the next step but instead a person with the name of ZIM seazed the moment.

ZIM please meet jon,jon is a man with virtue,and has a talent to work puzzles out,he gives me reconition to a question"to why?"also meet yum cha possibly a man with much experience and wisdom,he also gives me reconition,"to why?"i wish you could meet buby but another time maybe?he also gives me reconition,"to why?"[also cloud one}last of all f.t a trust worthy opponant who challenges my exsistance.all these men i could say i would trust with my life,if any of these struck/hit me,whatever the reason"should i hit back"?this is another example.

please ZIM i do not know what i mean,i can only give you examples for i have struck back in the past with no thought,is this correct should i still now if i was hit again?i'm not convinced that i should?(non-violence vs, violence? and having options?)this is a seperate issue i believe but unsure?

when you practice with a partner eg chi sao from wing chun,there is one which is begginer and the other intermediate.now the begginer will only reconise that he achieves his target,however the intermediate reconises it too that he's been hit by the begginer and at the same time reconises that he achieves his target too.now the begginer does not reconise that he is been hit for the intermediat only touches him lightly,[the intermediate applys more counts than the begginer],so what does this breed?
should the intermediate hit back so that the begginer reconises it?what will he achieve if he does so?now the intermediate may have the question in mind maybe not but "I" still have it in mind.

gentlemen am i on the right tracks now?
thanks
sui

p.s i can only go as far as you can take me this,aid me not to solve the puzzle but to help me feel that the question is not an illussion.

p.s thanks mark,i agree but what your feeling of hitting back if you do?or shouldn't we hit back,not that i feel the need to hit back?

ZIM

10-15-2002, 06:12 PM

Pleased to meet you all:)

Sui, I cant be sure that I understand what your after answering, exactly, but I think youre trying to reach for something a little indefinable? Like an ethical stance, and how to go about holding to ethics. @ least thats how i'm seeing it right now.

I just hope I'm not confusing you and everybody else! maybe by making it more complex than it needs to be. FWIW, i think this is a deep question not easy to answer, as how i see it. It is a human cioncern, so not an illusion.

OK, I see this: your saying I've got good friends and it might be that i could get into a fight with them and my training might be taking over, maybe getting out of hand, like on autopilot. Or other situ's might happen where you might regret doing wjhat you train to do? Becuz its on autopilot maybe? or I/U/others could get angry and then what?

From what i know of wingchun, it's like an autopilot. Once touch-to-hit begins the reflexes are supposed to happen like water flowing into the other. This is almost like Buddhist ideas of being in the moment. You can't think "I AM doing chi sao" becuz then you become self-conscious and mess up. The key is to not think "I AM..." anything, but just be mindful and be IN chi sao, right?

Now, for anger and fighting. Maybe to avoid going off the handle, you could practice being mindful in the same way of your emotional triggers. Like, if your family gets to you, then be with the anger, but don't respond to it? (an idea. i'm not sure about it). The thing is, i guess not to succumb to the anger and definitely not your pride and selfishness. Like the Buddhist thing: who is this I to be offended? But i am allowed to be angry in the body and mind....just a formation to endure. None of this is easy or anything.

Any how, I wanted to check to be sure I'm getting the right idea of what youre looking at. Moral questions or dealing with after-effects. If after-effects of fights, there is a lot of stuff I could link you to, I bet. :)

I'm going to wait on other answers to clarify things a little more for me. OK

joedoe

10-15-2002, 06:51 PM

I am not really sure what you are asking, and I am too stupid to follow everything that has been said till now, but I just wanted to relate 2 things that may be relevant.

A few years ago I had a fight with my father over something fairly important. He made the first move and struck me twice (he actually sucker punched me). I then blocked him and pushed him away. He landed very hard on his backside, then others who were present held us seperate to prevent us from fighting further.

Do I feel guilty for striking back? Yes and no. I feel bad that it came to blows, but once the strikes were flying it would have been wrong for me to not defend myself. However the fallout from this was that our relationship got stronger after that. I think ironically that from that day on my father actually acknowledged me as a man and was able to respect me. All's well that ends well :).

The other incident was at class when I was sparring a fellow student. I am more experienced than he is and I was trying to help his development. However I hadn't really pulled on the gloves for a while so I was a bit rusty. Gradually the power in his hits got harder and harder, until he nailed me with a beautiful cross.

Now this annoyed me because a) he had upped the power and b) I missed the shot :). So I powered a jab straight through his defenses and gave him a bloody nose. I stopped then because I realised I had lost control and allowed my pride to get the better of me. I did not want him to think that he could just hit me like that, so I showed him some of what I could do in return. Stupid pride.

Anyway, I don't know how relevant this is, but maybe someone might find something useful in my ramblings :)

Yum Cha

10-15-2002, 06:59 PM

As with so much in life, the theoretical is no where near as interesting as reality. Families, no matter what people say, they bring out the best and the worst in us. You can pick your friends, but not your family, and certainly not your nieces "boyfriend."

Perhaps I am not correct, but I sense you feel a bit or remorse that you didn't handle things differently. The things we know, we know already, we just have to realise we know them.

So, how to restore the balance? The answer will come to you because you are a complete person. Trust yourself.

There are rules in life, you follow them or you suffer the consequences. One of them is not to interfere with private business, nor to bring bad influences onto people who are loved and cherished by others. Lessons get learned from many sides.

So, to hit back when you are not "threatened" is perhaps not the action of a superior man, but rather a search for superiority?

Yet, to kill a rapist whom has murdered your children too is only human, even if there is no threat to you, and nothing you can do to change the events.

It is a long road indeed.

Yum Cha

10-15-2002, 07:21 PM

The second topic, the "older brother / younger brother" interaction. Joe and Sui have both alluded to.

Being the old guy has it's benefits, one of them is a lower testosterone level...

When you are training with your si di, you should be proud that they have learned to touch you. You should be proud when they stop taking the backward step every time you advance. Part of their growth will depend on their development of confidence, shen, spirit. Part of your growth will be the passing on of your hand, and mo duk.

You should not feel guilty for showing them their weaknesses, for if you are a good older brother, your younger brothers should eventually get all you have to give them. Your responsibility is to avoid turning a lesson into an injury.

I berlieve anger, pride and dominance are all lessons, just as surely as hand techniques, and lessons are learned from many sides.

David Jamieson

10-15-2002, 07:55 PM

sui-

mercifullness is a virtue, but letting someone hit you and get away with it is foolishness.

To speak of "god" and his mercy, well hey, that's god and I would never even think that i was anything even marginally akin to a "god"

a measure given should become a measure returned, this is fairness.

The buddha said "how would you like it if someone did that to you?"

Jesus said "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

I did not state that I would strike pre-emptively, I said I would strike back.

I did not state i would apply full force against a light tap. Nor would i lose it on someone for bumping my nose during sparring.

But, If someone maliciously struck me, I would do my best to end that scenario as quickly as possible, escalating force as need be until I am defeated, or my attacker has been defeated.

That's a big steamin dish of reality, and that's how I see it.

peace

desertwingchun2

10-15-2002, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by Yum Cha
The second topic, the "older brother / younger brother" interaction. Joe and Sui have both alluded to.

Being the old guy has it's benefits, one of them is a lower testosterone level...

When you are training with your si di, you should be proud that they have learned to touch you. You should be proud when they stop taking the backward step every time you advance. Part of their growth will depend on their development of confidence, shen, spirit. Part of your growth will be the passing on of your hand, and mo duk.

You should not feel guilty for showing them their weaknesses, for if you are a good older brother, your younger brothers should eventually get all you have to give them. Your responsibility is to avoid turning a lesson into an injury.

I berlieve anger, pride and dominance are all lessons, just as surely as hand techniques, and lessons are learned from many sides.

Yum Cha - This should be posted on every forum for all to see!! Excellent post and truly in the spirit of genuine gung fu.
-David

sanjia

10-16-2002, 08:12 AM

sui : "p.s thanks mark,i agree but what your feeling of hitting back if you do?or shouldn't we hit back,not that i feel the need to hit back?"

The trouble with internal or external debate about whether one should or shouldn't hit back, is that in reality it is entirely dependant upon one moment in time, and that actual moment cannot be rehearsed no matter what type of training is taken. I think that an experienced 'martial artist' who has been involved with real time altercations, has at his hand (pun intended) more ability to lessen any 'hitting' whatsoever by using those things that we all take for granted most of the time, the senses. Having 'played' -person A hits me like this- scenarios, whether it be chi sao, or fully suited up really go for it scenario training, one can learn to recognise the signs well before they occur. This, in my opinion (and many others) is the self defense aspect of martial arts, not the 'hand goes like this, foot goes here' that a lot of people believe that it is.
...and so to get back on point and answer your question, having hit back before, I have felt bad about it, but only because it has 'gone according to plan' ie, as has been trained and drilled, and was more than was necessary.
This doesnt often happen though, (see above) for those reasons of 'moments'. The majority of altercations that I have had to become involved in have been those that have been seen coming and so hitting back has just not been necessary, pressing, pushing, shoving, pulling, moving, smothering etc have been my 'frog brain' answers. Which brings up an interesting point although slightly off topic, but I think that Pak Mei is an art that covers these things very well [as a lowly beginner :-) ] , what do you think?

Mark

Sui

10-16-2002, 03:52 PM

ZIM,yes i would say so to that is "indefinable"though we are on the right tracks.for instance you mention maybe that training all the time to hit back becomes an auto-pilot therefor no choice to learn otherwise and therefore the question crops up[in my mind at least].and yes i would say this,for its in me to,how this question was raised is as follows:

12 yrs old always getting into fights my mother said"why do you strike back,with all your kung fu training why not find away to not fight back?"
but i did not listen.previose whaen i was about 3-4 yrs of age i asked my father if he could teach his hand to me?he said"no,your first task is to seek out all the different styles to find an equalibrium,then maybe i'll will show you?"so i did.
all the si-fus taught me to hit back without thought,and i have encoutered many.

wich leads me to yum cha,in these clubs yes i agree but how do you define a brother to show his weaknesses and to open the mo-duk?but before i go any further my mother the head of my family gave me sound advice much greater than yours yum and this is not the issue only an example to re-inforce"should we hit back",but thank you anyway,as always you ease with your wisdom.
[second topic]
since you represent the older man,you struck many cords within your wisdom,however the second topic or leading topic suggests that its justified to hit back.now if i was to meet you yum cha would you treat me as a si-dai and epext i to treat you also as a si-dai so we can show the mo-duk of our indifferences or similarities?you see i'm unsure to do so for what do i want and what do i have to prove,and most impotantly should i show?even more so should i hit back if i don't have any of these desires?like i asked what are the possibilities of me getting hit from now till i die,also what are the possibilities now that i have the question"should i hit back with all my kung fu"?

joedoe,yes,what you have wrote is relevant to I,and you too aid me,so can we find a better way to not hit back?

kung lek,it seems to me that you find it stupid the question at hand.you have already wrote that it is justified to strike back yet you still don't convince me or are you trying to convince yourself?there is a philosophy to wich you can't feel and i wish you could,because you wouldn't jump in and say that "i would strike back"[you are the auto-pilot]
peace to you to kung lek

san,what can i say?except thank you?so is this accepted by the others?"need to"[nessesary] is that a/the pak mei philosophy?
i don't think so,not from ours anyway.

any way back to the story:
my father said "yes that is one of many equalibriums i will show the most effective way to you,called pak mei"
through my training my mother said "to get hit is bad,to hit back is even worse"now you can imagine the confusion
then not so long ago from now my uncle took me in for a day and asked me to show him my kung fu.{my uncle is of pak mei too}so i did it was the one tai chi movement from my families and it can take up to a day to regain balance.5 minuetes in he walked away came back 2 hrs roughly[his student said]with a cup of tea,put it down and came across and reach to touch me,i grabbed his wrist[right]with my right hand claw,pulled him towards me,to bui with my left.he met me with a claw too[left] on my left bui,and smiled[differently]"why do you strike back?,you are a man and his kung fu,fear is not the issue,and you have accepted it well"i could not answer him.he followed by saying"all i was going to do is to tell you you can stop" i still couldn't reply.

so you see this test of hands is different to which i use to encounter as we always try to hit each other or put each other off balance.btw i was in a position where my uncle was in the advantage,which he did not take.

so san,what do you recon?as a low level begginer youre better than me to come up with that answer,thank you.

sui

joedoe

10-16-2002, 05:31 PM

So are you saying that it is fear that makes us strike back? I guess the cocnlusion to that is to train your skill to a level where you no longer need to fear what may happen if you do not strike back. Or to train until there is no fear of being struck?

Yum Cha

10-16-2002, 08:08 PM

I agree, well said Mark. Reaction in that moment comes down to training, experience and character. It is something you can’t plan.

David, thanks for the kudos. I have a little computer application, I plug in a few variables and it spits out this sh1t…. I’m not as “old and wise” as it appears, just ask FT…<grin>.

Sui, what great stories, I am once again in your debt to you for your wisdom and entertainment my friend.

How do I define a brother? I don’t think I do, I think it is the other that gives me that honour, and I only respond to it as best I can to show my respect for the honour. Can I get you to tell me about your Mother’s advice? Mine is obviously lacking in some manner, and you wouldn’t leave a friend wandering in the wilderness would you?

As for how I would treat you if we met? I would treat you no differently than I treat you now, with my hand extended, in friendship.

And what makes you think that I am older than you? Perhaps I’ve just been ridden hard and put away wet.

Sui

10-17-2002, 05:25 AM

my wisdom?yum cha no way is there wisdom only a story which i experienced[entetaining yes,lol].

may i call you my brother?so as you may define it?i'm sorry to decline of speaking the advice of my mother,i am writing a book though,about nine yrs old,it will take me till the rest of my days?and is just for my sons and their sons if they wish?don't be suprised you are in it as others are to but it won't ever get published,and only my surname from me[male]can it be passed down.
i could always ask my mother to visit you in a dream,so you could ask her,but don't blame me if your family get nightmares from it?
i would not say that yours is lacking and how can you compare it or want to compare it to my mothers?of course i'm biase.
sorry but yes i would leave you in the wilderness,for you will not starve and would learn the much greater,infact i would run when you sleep.

oh yum,in freindship eh?we'll see?

you are older and wiser than i no doubt you only have to see behind your writing,not much older[though you look it]and i give respect as i must:) your analogy[of last post wich dave foud stimulating]is exellent,and no way sh1t,and there is much wisdom,but i guess its natural to you?

joedoe,
sorry but no i'm not saying anything,i'm in no place to judge,but,this
"Or to train until there is no fear of being struck?"
is priceless,thank you.

sui

David Jamieson

10-17-2002, 05:16 PM

"kung lek,it seems to me that you find it stupid the question at hand.you have already wrote that it is justified to strike back yet you still don't convince me or are you trying to convince yourself?there is a philosophy to wich you can't feel and i wish you could,because you wouldn't jump in and say that "i would strike back"[you are the auto-pilot]
peace to you to kung lek"

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I have been struck and not struck back. I have been struck and fought quite violently. This is my experience and it's where I draw my commentary from.

I find it moot without the actual experience of individuals in an altercation in no way begun by the person first being struck.
I don't find the question stupid at all.

peace