A fact!

[old jong]

The Mixed martial art's psychology is rapidly and surely taking over in the minds of wingchunners. We are loosing faith in our system (All those masters with their ridiculous politics are not helping very much!) and as a result, we are looking in awe at other styles (mostly sport oriented) for clues on good technique and strategy.
Is that a good thing?....Is that normal evolution?...

[Atleastimnotyou]

a good thing?
no

a normal evolution?
i think the only thing in wing chun that should be evolving is how well you do wing chun, not wing chun itself.

[yenhoi]

Wing chun should evolve too. Things that stop evolving are called fossils. Like Old Jong. :p

[David Jamieson]

I think wing chun is a good compact system. no need to add, no need to take away.

learn extra on the side if you want but why fix something that isn't broken?

peace

[yuanfen]

yenhoi- evolution may be- not all change is an improvement.
Sometimes the changes are due to folks reaching an impasse
in their understanding of wing chun.Of course continuing the wing chun journey can result in applications that others didnt think of-
though the concepts are there.

[Hansson]

I don't know much about Wing Chun but generally speaking I think Martial Artists need to ask themselves what the main purpous of their training is - if the most important thing is to develop the ultimate fighting system, in time all styles would converge into something very similiar (with the only differences attributable [is that an English word or something I just made up?] to different peoples physical setups and abilities).

On the other hand, if the most important thing is the cultural heritage and a general fascination with different styles, then I think people should try to preserve the details and the differences between different systems and subsystems.

If every martial art should evolve into a kind of MMA I think it would lose a lot of it's appeal.

[kungfu cowboy]

Wing Chun is just groovy as is. But there are things it doesn't have like breakfalls and specific ground techniques (some would probably argue that), fun fast forms crazy high kicks, wet t-shirt contests, etc.. I like to know these things. There is nothing wrong with learning what you want to know outside of a system. Just make sure if you pass it along you keep everything separate, and say what goes where.

[yenhoi]

I agree with Kung Lek.

As a system of studying, teaching, and somewhat understanding fighting, wing chun should go un-altered and preserved.

Traning methods and how class is conducted etc, should be continually changing to suit the students (current generation) needs and abilitys, as well as whatever the outside environment is like - such as none of us are really in need of a huge WC army any time soon, we all train in safe comfortable environments were we must simulate almost everything.

Seems to work. The many factions of WC being my evidence - the principles are there across the board, how they are taught and used differs sometimes greatly (and bitterly.)

[tiger_1]

my friend one more great theme from you ,and you have apsol. right, im like to say : people its not giltt. for that lost road and lost hope , and only tho its gilty its masters ( sifys) tho cant learn wingchun stydents what must see in wing chun and what its real wing chun world, im mean stydent must see like first kug fu in wing chun style , must see power , must see great strategy in wing chun (KUNGFU) style - just friendly tiger_1:)

[Martial Joe]

Wing chun should evolve too. Things that stop evolving are called fossils. Like Old Jong.


Good point. But I dont think the sytem needs to evolve I think the way most people train needs to evolve.


Sitting there doing drills isnt going to make you a fighter.
Do the forms, do you chi sau, and work on putting them into in action will.

Wing Chun is like boxing guys. If a grappler beats some wing chun guys ass on the ground its normal.

Thats why these boxers and kick boxers learned how to fight on the ground too, because thats all that happend to them.
They would hop in the ring, get taken down and beaten down.

Dont lose faith in wing chun because of grapplers. I see it happen alot. I dont really see it from the kung fu people but from the guys who actually fight. They would see a grappler beat a kung fu guy and then they have this thought molded into their heads that kung fu is ****.

Those guys in those rings work their asses off...I bet most of us dont work half as hard as they do. Dont expect to get far without working on it.

As so many have said before. Its the people not the style.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
a good thing?
no

a normal evolution?
i think the only thing in wing chun that should be evolving is how well you do wing chun, not wing chun itself.

Hi Corey,

Well said. The system likely doesn't need to evolve, but we all can expect personal improvement in our Wing Chun as we put in the time and effort.

Regards,

[Martial Joe]

Yeah I said that too but I talk to much.

Wheres my credit?

[reneritchie]

WCK should evolve, but it should not be evolved. Like calligraphy, the tradition must be mastered first. Then evolution *may* occur if needful. If some newbie just decides to change rather than understand, then results may vary.

And evolution can take many forms. I kind of chuckle at the idea of "wing chun is perfect there can be no change" because MA had to evolve to begin with for WCK to form, and over the generations since, masters of every lineage have changed their art (even if they didn't intend to, no one is a computer-perfect replicator). Yip Man made changes. Yuen Kay-San and Sum Nung made changes. Leung Jan made changes. Some were just (to quote Joy) re-arrangements of the text-book. Some were choices in surfacing application rather than leaving implication. Some where elaborations to handle fighters before unknown (western boxers, wrestlers), and some were more substantial. Time has and will tell which changes survive and which don't. But picking a still frame from the historic flow of video seems as senseless as change for changes sake (a sifu trying to preserve exactly what his sifu changed, vs. a student changing what his sifu preserved exactly).

Another thing to remember is that WCK is not fighting. WCK is a system to improve fighting, nothing more, nothing less. Is your goal to be good at WCK, or to be good at fighting? Not all suits fit all occasions. And if your goal is to be good at fighting in an octogon or ring, you might need a different suit (as a BJJ person might have needed a different suit as a member of a Red Junk opera with rebel urges ;)

Historically, there were some who stuck with a system and took it to unbelieveable hights. There were also others who sought out specialist sifu (or were sent to them by their original sifu) and polished kicks with Mok Ga, long bridge with Lama Pai, grappling with Sut Gao, internal with Tai Gik, etc. Neither approah is inherently more noble or honorable than the other, each individual has to do what suits them best, and has to be happy with what they do.

RR

[anerlich]

What Rene said.

It depends on your personal goals.

If Wing Chun didn't evolve or borrow, we wouldn't be doing the 6.5 point pole right now.

[old jong]

Everybody brought good points. I like the part where I read '' The way people train should evolve'' Yeah but for what ?....For sport fighting?...Is'nt Wing chun very effective as a self-defense art?....

I believe I practice Wing Chun realisticaly enough to be effective in a self-defense situation.I do not neglect the more suttle Wing Chun practices also. I think our punches and strikes are as good as the boxing types. The principles of Wing Chun ,the things like sticking and escort as it goes are not favorable to hit and run sparring,jumping around while waiting for an oppening.
Anyway,you know what I mean.Don't need to be a paleontologist to understand that!....Eh?....;)

[yuanfen]

Rene says:Some were just xxxx re-arrangements of the text-book. Some were choices in surfacing application rather than leaving implication. Some where elaborations to handle fighters before unknown (western boxers, wrestlers), and some were more substantial. Time has and will tell which changes survive and which don't.

((True. However time can be cruel. Good things can be swept aside. Greshams law on bad money driving out....
The coming of weaponry and guns eroded many earlier medieval european and also Japanese skills. Our good fortune that the Chinese
were able to preserve so many great arts)))

Old Jong: Anyway,you know what I mean.Don't need to be a paleontologist to understand that!....Eh?....

((But I bet a palentologist will be puzzled if he/she comes accross an old jong-hopefully way down the road!!)))

Anerlich says:If Wing Chun didn't evolve or borrow, we wouldn't be doing the 6.5 point pole right now.

((True- but note...the pole work got absorbed into fairly consistent wing chun principles... centerline, bong-kwan, tan-kwan, biu etc- rather than hung gar body motions. So today we can usea cue stick and use it with wing chun body motions))

[Hendrik]

The applications never stop adapting every instance since no one can step the same water flow twice;
and not everyone have the same size of body. Same length of hands. and same habit..... that is just nature . Nothing Wrong..:D

Everyone evoled the "engine"...... ShaoLIn? Errrrmei? HakKa? Wudang? Hung Gar? ..White Crane.... HeiGong.. TaiJi.... Hundreds of directions.... Hey make up your mind! LOL

But then, Still Stuck in a still stance where only hand moves which is not even good or proper to breath naturally ....

Some belive it will generate mytherious power if one join the group.

Some belive Chan will safe everything of WCK. :o


On the other hand, Sure the His-story has been greatly evoled as one likes it. Hey I am the olderst...:D

So what has been evoled? what has not?
Or matching in the same place round and round ? :confused:


Let it be Let it be Let it be Let it be....speaking words of wisdom ... Let it be....... The Taiping will safe all of us.. OMMMMM . Hee Hee Hee, no one suspect that "half point"....
Hsuuuuu Don't tell others....;)

[Rolling_Hand]

Review your actions during the past few weeks. Imagine yourself correcting all your mistakes, and act on one correction before going to sleep.

humm....

[Hendrik]

http://www.wushuweb.com/6j_zy.asp?id=1669

RH, wake up, Read it , and Laught or Cry.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
learn extra on the side if you want but why fix something that isn't broken? Because it is, and very much so.

[old jong]

I can see BJJ/ground fighting having a big influence in Wing Chun practice in the near future. Lots of schools have some kind of BJJ curriculum now,the basics.
I can understand about this.It is a reaction to the new reality brought by the grappling mania we are going through.

I think differently when we talk about other striking arts. Are we not competent already in that field?....

[yuanfen]

Fossil talk is right,
FWIW, IMO- wing chun isnt broken but the general understanding of it might be.(Save the flaming).
Wing chun is very adaptable to new challenges when well understood. It is not a collection of techniques- it is for shaping structure, reactions and coordination and listening in a systemic way. That way aint broken-though understanding it may be very uneven.

[red5angel]

RR - "WCK is a system to improve fighting, nothing more, nothing less. Is your goal to be good at WCK, or to be good at fighting? Not all suits fit all occasions."

I have to disagree with you here Renee, Wing chun is a fighting system, designed to help you fight better, if you are doing wing chun 'good' then you will be able to fight 'good'.

As for evolving, I like to look at wingchun like this. It's been pretty thoroughly tested and proven to work if done right. There may be some small changes to make that could make it even more efficient but these are tweaks, not major overhauls. Wing Chun works, now its just a matter of training.

[old jong]

Many people in Wing Chun feel like that.
article found onthe web. (http://members.aol.com/melillojohn/wc_fight.htm)
As I said ,I can understand why people are adding BJJ to their curriculum. Could we say that it is a lot easier to learn some BJJ than mastering/understanding the more suttle and sometimes elusive concepts of Wing Chun
Ground sparring in the same Wing Chun school. (http://members.aol.com/melillojohn/Morespar.htm)

[red5angel]

"Could we say that it is a lot easier to learn some BJJ than mastering/understanding the more suttle and sometimes elusive concepts of Wing Chun"

OJ, you have hit the nail on the head my friend!!

[old jong]

We have a whole box full of nails Red!...
;) I think Wing Chun should be taught in a way to be street effective in a short time. It is easy to be done with some appropriate training and plain o'll hard work. But,there is that gap between ''acceptable/good effectiveness'' and being able to cop with any situation as a very high level Wing Chun'er can do.
Time is an important factor these days and many are not ready to practice for say 10/15 years before getting to that kind of level.
The obvious answer to this problem is filling the gap with BJJ or some other kind of grappling. Or....(Who knows?)

[red5angel]

Old Jong, I would go even ****her and say that for some people, even if they practiced for 10 or 15 years, might not figure it out. Its like that article you posted, the guy says he believes a good portion of the people out there teaching wingchun essentially shouldnt be because they havent taken the time to understand it. They have taken some seminars, and some classes here and there. These kinds of people do more damage then good.
For this reason I can understand the stories I hear sometimes about how people used to challenge the instructor to a given school, to see if their skill level was high enough to be teaching. Why would anyone want someone who has had some half baked training teaching something they hold dear, badly?!

[old jong]

Anybody can learn from tapes and start teaching.Anybody can go to seminars,have his picture taken with the Sifu and become a close door student with ''the'' secret technique only taught to him during a full moon initiation!....;)

But we are disgressing from the subject witch is about Wing Chun ''additives'' Good or wrong?...

[red5angel]

I agree OJ. As for additives, well, about 99% bad I think. most people who want to change it dont have the depth of knowledge to do it effectively and make a change for the good. It's like I said, this stuff has been tried and tested, it works.
A freind and I were talking the other day and he put it pretty good. He said its like car racing, first you buy the car you want. You buy it because you like what you see and the way it performs. The car has already been built pretty well, and there are probably some small changes you can make to make it perform better but most of it has already been researched and tested and its been honed down to a great racing car already.

[yuanfen]

Old jong sez:But we are disgressing from the subject witch is about Wing Chun ''additives'' Good or wrong?...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Old Jong- some opinions FWIW

1When someone has reacheda dead end in understanding the depths of wing chun- good. A survivor has to do what he has to do.
2. when someone keeps evolving with wing chun - wrong.

3. The article is full of half truths. There are some wing chun instructors currently with serious practical experience both before and after learning wing chun. That includes Augustine Fong, Jason Lau and some others.

4. Some of us worked with wing chun on the ground in the 70s before we ever heard of bjj.

5. Hey- nice icon of the moving dinosaur. Good wing chun is headed for beinga dinosaur imo- which is ok by me. No
missionary here- no chain store- just enjoy continued wing chun development and sharing with those who care. Let the rest go.

[yuanfen]

Old jong sez:But we are disgressing from the subject witch is about Wing Chun ''additives'' Good or wrong?...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Old Jong- some opinions FWIW

1When someone has reacheda dead end in understanding the depths of wing chun- good. A survivor has to do what he has to do.
2. when someone keeps evolving with wing chun - wrong.

3. The article is full of half truths. There are some wing chun instructors currently with serious practical experience both before and after learning wing chun. That includes Augustine Fong, Jason Lau and some others.

4. Some of us worked with wing chun on the ground in the 70s before we ever heard of bjj.

5. Hey- nice icon of the moving dinosaur. Good wing chun is headed for beinga dinosaur imo- which is ok by me. No
missionary here- no chain store- just enjoy continued wing chun development and sharing with those who care. Let the rest go.
No name calling and no criticism. To each his own.

[old jong]

Let me play the devil's advocate for a minute!...
We all know that Wing Chun was tested over and over agains other Kung Fu styles!.... WSL and the other badasses were fist fighting among standing up fistfighters! Most Wing Chun'ers can reach a level when they can fistfight very well vs other fistfighters or kickboxers but there is nothing in the forms to deal with (and after!) take downs so....

Is'nt that a normal thinking?....Why not learning that stuff fast (filling the gap) and mastering Wing Chun highter principles in their times?....

I tend not to juge people who think and act this way.

[old jong]

Hey Yuanfen!

.'' Some of us worked with wing chun on the ground in the 70s before we ever heard of bjj.''

I know!....(Family thing here!) Maybe we should all do that on a regular base and just let our Wing Chun adjust itself to that situation. (It is not ground Chi Sau!)

;)

[Marshdrifter]

Hi Old Jong,

Originally posted by old jong
Time is an important factor these days and many are not ready to practice for say 10/15 years before getting to that kind of level.
I don't think you really mean it, but your wording implies that time is more important than it was in the "old days."

I would think it would be the other way around, or at least that time is just as important now as it was then. A lot of people have never been in fights, or if they have, were in fights because of a direct result of their own actions.

I have never been in a fight, and I never plan on being in one. This in no way means that my wing chun isn't (at least somewhat -- I'm still a relative beginner) effective. I don't feel the pressure to be the best badass in the shortest amount of time. If I did, I probably wouldn't done a mix of muay thai and bjj. Because I don't feel the time pressure, I can enjoy taking an art that can potentially take me further than I would get using mt/bjj. Or at least with less stress on my joints (I like my joints, they let me do interesting things).

Every once in a while, I get to spar friends who are taking other martial arts. Usually, especially with a couple of die hard friends, I get my ass handed to me. Afterwards, I usually think about where I went wrong, and adapt my implementation of wing chun to help deal with those mistakes. It's my attempt to learn how to use the skillset that wing chun has given me. Usually, this fixes whatever the problem was (although my friends also adapt :) ). It is not, at least not yet, my place to add mt or bjj techniques to my repertoire because one of my friends beat me using a technique from one of those styles.

OTOH, I have seen people with a good (or at least better than mine) base in wing chun take other styles, and borrow things from those other styles to add to their wing chun. Usually, the most effective additives are techniques that have been "wing chun-ized" to more closely adhere to wing chun philosophies and guidelines. Perhaps I'll eventually do this. I could see doing this if I were to move to a place with no wing chun or reach a spot where I stagnate and cannot improve my wing chun past a certain point. Perhaps I'll never need to.

Would it still be Wing Chun? I can't answer that. If I mostly do wing chun with a tad bit of other stuff hidden within, perhaps. Otherwise it may be a new style that is solely my own. I'd have to figure out what the Chinese term for "drifting through the marsh fist" would be. :) Then all I'd have to do is alter the style history to include "Outlaws of the Marsh" based legends and I could sell tapes! :rolleyes: ... or maybe not...

[red5angel]

Old Jong, while I understand your reasoning, why not use that time training to "fill the gaps", training in wingchun to increase your knowledge instead?
I thik if you want to study other arts for the sake of studying other arts thats great! If you are trying to fill gaps then that is wrong.

[old jong]

Marshdrifter.
My wording is often so so because I,m french! I make mistakes and sometimes don't get others idea quite perfectly.;) I just feel that today's generation is more hurried or impatient than the elder ones.

Red.
You understand that I play devil's advocate to feed the discussion.I bring arguments we could hear out there in the vast family feud world that is our system!...It does not mean that I personnaly agree to all of these ideas. I agree with you on this but I can feel the others needs ..or fears?....

[red5angel]

Needs, fears, misunderstandings. I think some of the lack of faith in the system is do again to lack of information and knowledge. Of course lately it is popular to be doing BJJ or whatever, because its "scientifically sound" or "all fights go to the ground" or "the ground and pound is unstoppable" blah blah blah....
I understand OJ, but I am pretty sure you are the Devil himself! ;)

[Souljah]

Evolving -----good, however, some forms of wing chun are evolving in a negative (well i would consider them negative manner) ie - Wing chun do.
Now, not to discredit james demile, But alot of his "disciples" are teaching a very uneccessarily violent and "inethical" use of wing chun. Not as far as to say that WCDers i know go looking for fights but they develop a attitude which is very agressive and will only provoke a street fight, not avoid a complicated situation......

Now I dont practice wing chun but im not pleased with this type of development.
You have a guy near to where I live who teaches wing chun do, mainly to teenagers. Who are in awe of his ability to bring an opponent down in 2 moves, and in this mesmerisation take on his haphazard philosophy. This is probably due to their age and vulnerabilty to a number of things, the mind is like playdo at this age and can be formed by whoever has the power to manipulate them... If I hadnt studied with my current teacher for a period before going to check this guy out, i would have probably been swayed by his claims of greatness and heroic ventures.

Now I know WC is all about practicality and simplicity but the new mindset that is being taught is just breeding a new age of street thugs..... :eek: :eek:

soul:( :(

[taltos]

I'll be the first one to step up and say that, properly executed, I believe that Wing Chun is one of the most aggressive, destructive martial systems in existence. However, I am lucky enough to have a Sifu who stresses, day in and day out, that if you (or someone in need of assistance) are not in immidiate, vital danger, there's no fight. If someone wants to yell and call you every name in the book and threaten you, fine. Let them. Words aren't going to kill you. Wing Chun responds to intent, and intent requires action.

Unfortunately, because of the nature of the combat art itself, too many people (in an attempt I think to inject courage) bring in their machismo, which is an entirely different animal. Courage allows you to do what has to be done, no matter what, while machismo, or pride, encourages you to escalate situations that probably could have been diffused. I've been lucky enough to meet many accomplished martial artists (Sifu level and higher), and I can say that the most accomplished, and most direct, and most "courageous" were also the most humble, and the least likely to talk about themselves instead of their art.

I know what I was like at 16, and it's a shame that schools that have teenage students don't do more to instill simple humility into them. But then again, when an instructor isn't willing to encourage martial virtues in their students, they speak volumes about their own Kung Fu.

-Levi

[kj]

Some small number of readers may appreciate this short essay on Vanilla Kung Fu (http://www.plumpub.com/info/Articles/vanillakf.htm).

There are some other interesting reads by various authors at the same site.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[S.Teebas]

Thats a good article KJ. Someone from your school wrote that?

[kj]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Thats a good article KJ. Someone from your school wrote that?

Hi S.,

Nope, someone from our group pointed it out to me.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Merryprankster]

Needs, fears, misunderstandings. I think some of the lack of faith in the system is do again to lack of information and knowledge. Of course lately it is popular to be doing BJJ or whatever, because its "scientifically sound" or "all fights go to the ground" or "the ground and pound is unstoppable" blah blah blah....

Or, alternately, it's because they recognize that highly effective groundfighting strategies, not found/practiced/emphasized in WC are a good thing to know.

No need for somebody who seeks knowledge to have done it out of fear, misunderstanding, or lack of faith.

And for the record, I don't want to have faith in a system. Awful choice of words.

[red5angel]

MP- you may feel its an aweful choice of words but you put faith in your system, your skills and you ability to control a situation if you get into a fight. why? Because fights are about chance, by training in the martial arts you are just increasing your chances of success.
Also, note that while I said many pursue other arts to fill in gaps out of lack of understanding or fear their current system doesnt work, I didnt say everyone takes bjj out of fear, I also said that I can respect anyone who is just seeking the knowledge. Its the filling gaps I have a problem with.
Geeze, you grapplers are almost as sensitive as us wingchun people! ;)

[old jong]

Confidence is a better word,I guess. I could say that confidence is having ''faith'' in your knowledge or skill.

''Geeze, you grapplers are almost as sensitive as us wingchun people!''...
I know I would be if I found myself with my face in some guy's smelly crotch at every training session!.....:eek: :rolleyes: :D

[red5angel]

"Confidence is a better word,I guess. I could say that confidence is having ''faith'' in your knowledge or skill."

I could agree with that, just dont think I am going to make a habit of it OJ! ;)

[yenhoi]

Dont have faith in _your_ system. Have faith in you.

Your body, arms, legs, head, shoulders, knees........ etc, do the fighting, afterall.

[old jong]

I like it!

[canglong]

Old Jong, First off very good thread.

There are some of us that are not losing faith in the system of Kung Fu and we even see it as more than just a system for improving one's ability to fight. But your point is well taken there are those that when they see a grappler out perform a WCK practictioner who see a grand and glorious grappler yet there are still a few that see a WCK practictioner that needs more time in the kwoon. I also side with those that say Wing Chun doesn't need to evolve it's our ability to comprehend and execute its concepts and principles that need to evolve.

[Merryprankster]

But your point is well taken there are those that when they see a grappler out perform a WCK practictioner who see a grand and glorious grappler yet there are still a few that see a WCK practictioner that needs more time in the kwoon.

Good observation. I really think people try to make style vs. style arguments when it's fighter vs. fighter.

Here is something I have discovered in my short (short, short) tenure: A person versed in both ranges (I only define two--standing and ground) has a distinct advantage over a person versed in one--in fact, an almost insurmountable advantage, unless the person versed in one is simply fantastic.

Examples might be the early UFC's and Pride's--there was a BJJ dominance because groundfighting was a "new" idea, and BJJ takedowns were sufficient to takedown striker-heavy standing guys who hadn't practiced this much before. On the ground, these guys had no clue and were toast.

Enter wrestlers-- here's a set of guys who had vastly superior stand-up grappling skills, basic submission knowledge and excellent ground skills of a different sort. BJJer's couldn't take them down and once there, couldn't submit them with regularity, and couldn't sweep them. This becomes a real problem--if you can't take them down, you wind up in the guard. Since you can't sweep them, the wrestler is on top. Since you can't submit him, you keep taking damage. The Ground and Pound was born...

Enter the "Sprawl and Brawl," Chuck Liddell, Mo Smith, and Guy Metzger come immediately to mind as good examples. Striker heavy, with excellent takedown defenses and enough knowledge of the ground to stay out of trouble long enough to get up and beat you down.

Obviously, a WC man who practices well is going to fall into the "sprawl and brawl," category, regardless of whether or not he adopts the sprawl as a counter. He trains WC well and hard, and I suspect he'll stay on his feet and beat up the "grappler."

[red5angel]

MP, I would agree with you that it is the person and not the system.

[yuanfen]

Good overview MP.

[reneritchie]

MP - Excellent post. Of course, you left off the annoying "lay and pray" fighters, and the even more annoying, yet currently very trendy, "stall and sprawl" fighters (several of the Militich fighters spring to mind, as, unfortunately, does BJ Penn's last performance). Then, of course, you have Bustamante who seems to do any of them (except the latter two, of course) quite well.

I think you're correct in that "stall and brawl" is what WCK traditionally would employ (don't let them take you down and hurt them as they try). I wonder what the next trend will be, and how that will effect the strategy.

RR

[old jong]

I like that M.P.!
I think (IMHO) the sprawl should be adopted as an emergency motion like those in Biu Gee.
It's just an other way to regain the line to me and it covers a different angle,that's all.
Excellent post M.P.

[Martial Joe]

Nice posts jong and mp.