Grading in Bak Mei?? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

TAO YIN

11-01-2001, 01:42 PM

Seems like we got a lot of Bak Mei posters here. I just thought that I would ask you guys and gals about your grading tests at your gwoons. Do you have grading and how often? I was just wondering if you all grade only one form at a time. Or say you are grading for three levels, do you test just that level, or for all those levels together at once? What all is included in your gradings: conditioning, pad work, two man drills, weapons, etc? Basically, whats going on at your grading tests?

I have just moved to OZ to study Yau Kung Mun. I got here a week ago and got the chance to see one of the grading tests for two of the students here. Needless to say, it was "full on"!!! Actually, I just wanted to see how other grading regiments compare up to the one I witnessed today. I am very glad to be where I am at because I have found what would be defined as a definite traditional kung fu school! Good stuff! MATE!

:D

TAO YIN

CLOUD ONE

11-01-2001, 04:38 PM

Hi just wondering who actually grades you on if you pass or fail?
Do you have to pay extra for these gradings?

sanjia

11-01-2001, 04:47 PM

No gradings of any sort in the Pak Mei I study.

Mark S

Pakmei

11-01-2001, 05:00 PM

To be completely honest, in traditional chinese martial arts, there were no gradings.

The Master would advance the student when he / she has shown that they can:

1) Show correct body posture, foundation & breathing when executing the techniques.
2) Show the correct mentality and personality traits.
3) Perform what they have been taught.
4) Understand what they are practising.

Fundamentally, in our Pak Mei school ALL students where a black sash. This is generally considered as a beginners sash in Chinese Martial Arts.
It also manages to get rid of any egotism that students invitably get when they reach higher levels in a school as they go for their grades.

At the end of the day, gradings is very much a western school of thought.

The higher you reach in your skill, the more you'll realise where you are within the school, and what your able to do with your ability....and that gradings don't really mean anything other than a piece of paper with your name on it.

I have always been told by my Pak Mei Sifu: "The most important points in Pak Mei are the Foundation, Breathing and Body Posture". once you have achieved these,any technique that you learn or use should become a lot easier.

Still thats my two pence worth of information.

Cheers

Dave

Dave Stevens

RENEGADE_MONK

11-01-2001, 05:10 PM

Hi Tao,

Glad to see you finally made it ;) I haven't spoke with you in a while, how expensive was the relocation and getting housing there?

Drop me an email when you get a chance i have a couple questions ...train hard you're in good hands :cool:

sui-fuw

11-01-2001, 05:26 PM

sad,sad,sad CANTONESE AGAIN go talk to"man gwook fung".grading,honestly :rolleyes:

Steven T. Richards

11-01-2001, 08:56 PM

'Gradings' are just one elaboration of the 'status' issue that pervades all human activities - TCMA included. What some regard as a 'western' phenomenon is far more universal than that. it's simply a matter of perspective. as for coloured belts - the Okinawans and Japanese not 'wetserners' as such - were responsible for intrioducing that - although you get similar things in some S.E.Asian arts and even in some mainland Indian Kalari systems. The variations on traditional 'family' titles within TCMA are 'gradings' in the sense that they are legitimised cultural titles/positions from within a specific reference group i.e. a 'style'or TCMA family (Pai). Like it or not 'gradings' are simply and irreducibly an issue of status within a group - the specific form of which is less imporatnt than the fact of its existance.

TAO YIN

11-02-2001, 02:59 AM

OK

So all you guys are basically just telling me that as long as I can do the movements with correct breathing, correct posture, correct movement, and correct applications, that I get to pass to the next kuen? That sounds great!!! I guess mastering these kinds of arts doesn't take as long as I thought.

If I am taught the movements, correct breathing, correct posture, correct applications, and the correct other stuff; and then I am told to just perform that, OF COURSE I'll be able to do it at least one time! Come on????

This doesn't have anything to do with western thought. If a person grades another person and tries to push them to the edge, that makes the person who is learning better. Do you guys really think that the monks never pushed each other? Or did they just learn how to do the correct this and that once in front of the master? Then he say "good, now I teach you next kuen"????????????????????????

Now if it did have something to do with western thought. I would just go to the grading and no matter how good or bad I did, I would pass.

CLOUD ONE: Sifu grades us on who passes and fails. And you already know who my Sifu is. If you fail at first, you get a second chance, but after the second chance you have to pay.

Sui Fuw: What does Man Kwong Fong have to do with any of this? Do you know how he grades his students, or if he even does? Do you get to pass to your next level only when you uproot the bamboo? So is first level at the bottom or middle? Good luck! :p

Hey renegade, are you doing Yau Kung Mun? What kind of training are you doing? Any Jow Gar at all? Things are going very good here. I'll drop you an e-mail.

To all the other guys thanks for your thoughts.

TAO YIN :D

mantis108

11-02-2001, 03:54 AM

Hi Dave,

Long time no post (from you)! :D How's it going?

The point of martial arts is to liberate a person not to enslave a person. If you need recognition from someone or everyone why not do martial sports instead? One respects the skill of Bak Mei stylist by choice, a Bak Mei practitioner would not demand respects from anyone because he/she understands that like the skill itself, respects is hard earned. There is no glory in the study of Bak Mei but there is hard work - plain and simple Kung Fu.

Regards

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

sui-fuw

11-02-2001, 04:13 AM

i bet you couldn't do it? :p whats up the ykm not good in america?or is it your no good :D :D :D learn all you want,learn as much as you want,its you that has to satify yourself.the teacher satifys your ego? :D :D :D

BIU JI

11-02-2001, 04:16 AM

In our kwoon those who do a grading have to show stances , postures , breathing, application understanding , history, fitness,, form with/without iron rings. granted grading may not be considered traditional but does not mean they aren't affective, people have to really study their forms and train hard for the grading because in our kwoon it's no walk in the park.

sifu doesn't just hand you the next form like many other schools once you've completed the previous, he pushs you to your limit and past to make you "EARN" it, If you can't do your form under pressure of the whole kwoon watching and being absolutely buggered then how will it work on the street!

Each level includes everything from the previous level , so each grading level gets harder so you must train hard for the understanding and fitness.
If you want to learn the next level you "must ' show you understand the present one first.
At my previous school after 3 years I walked out with almost 30 forms with nothing above basic understanding , if that! I learnt more in 6 months at YKM and the hard gradings pushed people to study and train hard so it depends on how your gradings are designed and for what purpose but their is no "ego" about it in our kwoon.

sui-fuw

11-02-2001, 04:31 AM

bui its nice you feel this way about your school,however how does a form work on the street,remember good fights are not pre-rehersed. :) meaning come across a good fight he might have broken rythem? :)

fiercest tiger

11-02-2001, 04:43 AM

i teach and train all sorts of scenarios, like baseball bats, and knives not just rehersed one step sparring.

we train and try and keep it real, we wear helmets and chest pads and spar with no gloves!

do you do one step sparring in hakka? :D

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

sui-fuw

11-02-2001, 04:50 AM

no way on one step its pathetic :D :D :D

my father and i cross hand full out,but haven't since ma passed.

fighting is fighting though,and the buzz of....some one feels so good,however concience takes over and then you feel like cr@p,at least i do anyway :(

BIU JI

11-02-2001, 05:32 AM

Where in my post did I say a street fight was some pre-rehersed thing, you read that one wrong!
My point , if you'd bothered to look deeper into it , was toward mind set. If under pressure of people merely watching you do forms and also being tired already you give up or can't push on through fatige or nerves how the hell are you going to fight a real fight. My point was about the mental focus you git, not the obvious fu(king point of street fights not being pre-rehereded, no sh!t they're not.

Is that the depth of your hakka knowledge?

TAO YIN

11-02-2001, 05:37 AM

HAHAHA!

Sui Fuw you really crack me up. What is the matter with you actually? Can you read and then analyze what you have read, with the ability to give a normal answer. You are looking at it negatively. What for? I never said I was good, or anything for that matter. All I WAS saying is that if you are only going to do the kuens one time, with correct this and that, it would be a lot easier then doing with repitition for a grading. Again, I never said I was good. I am trying to better my kung fu and learn, thats all. It's up to me. I don't have any idea what the American Yau Kung Mun is like. The dont offer live in training like FT does. But I do not have to justify to you or anyone, my reason for wanting to study with FT. I've got an idea for you though. Come and find out why I am here.

It really gets on my nerves how negative you people are about everything dealing with YKM, bak mei, hakka, or whatever. It would be nice to discuss something useful to the arts. Of course there are different levels of being good or whatever, but in the end, everyone is learning...right???

Reply usefully, or don't. Sui Fuw are you starting something? Cool.

TAO YIN :eek:

CLOUD ONE

11-02-2001, 11:44 AM

What can you learn on this forum?
Why do you post these questions?
Ask your SIFU he should have the answers, shouln't he?
If not then ask him why?
Is he a teacher or still a student?

Answer very carefully F.T.

TAO YIN

11-02-2001, 12:33 PM

Yo Cloud.

"What can you learn on this forum?"

Visualizing differences in technique is something people do when reading. You know, like all the monks and their books. Never, did I say I could learn how to do a certain move or whatever. Analization is normal in reading. Analyzing reading that plays on someone else's memory pictures, can open doors to others who want to figure certain situations out.

"Why do you post these questions?"

Well, I asked this question simply to see what grading requirements happen in all these bak mei branches.

"Ask your Sifu, he should have the answers, shouldn't he."

Yes, and there was no reason to ask him this question because I freaking saw the grading that he required of his students!"

"If not then ask him why."

Don't worry I will if I don't understand the answer, but that would be my own fault.

"Is he a teacher or still a student?"

Are you hakka, or cantonese?

Now see folks, I answered every freaking question this genius asked me.

Cheers

TAO YIN :confused:

sui-fuw

11-02-2001, 01:16 PM

sorry bui my mistake :)

BIU JI

11-02-2001, 03:00 PM

Sorry for what?

CLOUD ONE

11-03-2001, 08:21 AM

'certain situations'why not ask your sifu about these 'certain situations' does he not know or are you just comparing 'my style is better than your style' Analyzing-what through your p c ?
the best way of experiencing that move or tecnique is to do it a thousand times a day, then you might just get a fingertip of what posters are talking about with their training.
don't be fooled and say yes I can visualize it so I understand. You will never understand1!!!
Am I hakka or cantonese? Ask F.T
Can't you visualize from the posts.
Hear what is being said, don't just listen.
From the answers you got on this thread are you satisfied?

fiercest tiger

11-04-2001, 01:25 AM

you are a d!ckhead you know that right? cant help to start ****, cause you are jealous of people that can get along and talk to each other. you are nothing, you are hated by all people here, how does that make you feel? like a C@NT right! Stop being a little b!tch that you are, everyone has asked questions even you!

i dont know all the answers and to say i do im lying to my students. i also encourage my students to seek other answer and opinions from other people, be it teachers or students or kung fu chat lines like this.

ask FT if your hakka? hmmm i doubt you are hakka or cantonese just a wanna be hiding behind this computer thinking you are. change back to sui fuw at least he is starting to act like a MAN! dont ruine yourself being a a$$ on the internet!!

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

Yum Cha

11-04-2001, 02:16 AM

(TAO, welcome to Sydney. FT, bring that Seppo into town for a feed this week!)

In our school, no grading. Only Sifu, Si Hing and Si Di, and age plays a part as well as talent.

Pakmei makes a good statement. Accomplish as much in a lifetime, and you'll be lucky, the journey is a long one.

Manits108 followed it up nicely, I concur with both of your philosophys.

You learn something, it enables you to learn someting additional, and then the layer on top of that, and when you get to the "top" layer, you recognise how little you learned at the basic level and return there to start the journey again. As you age, new challenges and new accomplishments change your viewpoints.

Anybody ever heard about the 10,000 times rule?

Sifu can guide you, but you must walk the way alone.

As the years pass your sifu and brothers know you by your skills, not by your belt.

Di Si Hing was given to me by my brothers, I didn't ask for it. Sifu will be given to me perhaps one day by someone that wants to learn what I can teach. Master is given to a teacher by the strength of the students he leaves behind.

The new guy gets tea, and if he show's diligence, people might start to remember his name. A Si Hing may take him under his wing to help him learn his lessons in time. Sifu will give him what he needs most, different for every student. Maybe even patterns in a different order. Different weapons. In the end it all comest together, Sifu doesn't hold anything back from anybody. Perhaps one day the student will go to the temple with Sifu. Thats how it works in our school.

With our school, one in 10 comes back for a month. Of the 10 that come back, one stays past a year. Of the ones that stay past a year, half become brothers. Sometimes I wish we could hold more students, but then they wouldn't be the same, if you know what I mean.

All that being said, the our modern society is built around "stepping stones", "mileposts", ceremonies of sorts to measure our passage through life. School grades, weddings, funerals for example.

I can understand why a big school might institute grading to motivate and track young students and work them towards joining the inner circle. It depends on the Sifu, each preatitioner has to find his own way as a Sifu too... Each Sifu has to find a way to make his Kwoon work. I know FT works the a$$ off his boys! No free rides.

CLOUD ONE

11-04-2001, 03:00 AM

Your teachings has taught you well!!
You may have already reached si fu status with your last post. I give you my admiration.

From my experiences the way you learn is far from being a 'gwai lo' I commend you that you hear not just listen, and that's a great way to learn without any concept of you being a white boy
;)
Now I understand why Sui Fuw respects Guangzhou, as for he believes there is a very fine line between student/teacher.

Now I know why you further your education from YKM
to Guanzhou as I knew they are not classed the same.

F.T - sui fuw e-mailed me to say that he will not be joining us, as Bui made him realize a few things. Probably how good YKM is HA HA HA FU[KING HA!!!!!
So you see even your student can be his teacher!!!

So is Bui your teacher now Sui?:D :D :D :D :D :confused:

The moral of this story is that there is a difference between wanting or not wanting to be a teacher and realizing you are a teacher

:p :p :p F.T ;) :p ;) :p :D

fiercest tiger

11-04-2001, 08:55 AM

any of my students can be your teacher lol!

ha ha ha fu(king ha :rolleyes:

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

BIU JI

11-04-2001, 11:01 AM

You may be surprised that even you could have something to teach others but since you act like a complete sh!t, who gives a rats @ss what you have!

Pull your head in and stop thinking you know it all so much more than everyone else and you may 'actually " learn something. Who do you think you are?

CLOUD ONE

11-04-2001, 11:23 AM

Thanks Bui for the lesson, you're right I have learnt alot. thanx.

'who do you think you are?' A question I frequently ask myself. Maybe you should try it sometimes!!!

Thanx F.T I see what Yum cha means by you make your boys work their ASS'S OFF!!! :D :D :D

fiercest tiger

11-04-2001, 12:28 PM

whatever that means!

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

EAZ

11-04-2001, 01:03 PM

In our VN lineage, there is no real grading:

When you "join the club" you are considered nothing, not even a student. You dress all in white (innocence). During this phase you learn first 4 forms and one pole (baton) form.Plus you must to horse stance perfectely square (thighs horizontal) for 5 minutes. The difficulty is to do horse stance followed by forms, while maintaining speed, strengh and endurance throughout. Very difficult. Student is not directly taught to concentrate on rsing sinking swallow spitting principle, but more on solidity and fluidity of positions.

If student passes this exam he receives black belt of student. Then his training is personalised. Senior students are instructors.

Eventually (a long time 10+ years) he may pass red belt, master. No one has gotten this far yet in my school.

At master and grand master level, one dresses in black.

Thought this may be of interest.

CLOUD ONE

11-04-2001, 01:14 PM

Only joking EAZ don't answer that :D

F.T I LOVE YOU!!!

Peace to you all. Have a wonderfull journey. Logging off for the time being.
Be happy and good luck!!!

F.T please feel free to e-mail me, if you are bored and want a scrap! hehehe, I will always lend my ear.

fiercest tiger

11-04-2001, 01:38 PM

Believe it or not you graded or that is still like a grading. belt or no belt in a grading and having a white tshirt and then moving to black is just like a belt! am i right? ;)

in my school at the end of a 2 hr or more grading or should i say torment, they gotta do 30 minutes for beginners level horse stance. im not trying to put down any school but one must earn there next form be it grading or an exam of some type!

grading for the money like some tkd every 3-4 months is not my cup of tea. my guys may grade once a year if they are lucky.

thanks for the post :)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

EAZ

11-04-2001, 02:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fiercest tiger:
Believe it or not you graded or that is still like a grading. belt or no belt in a grading and having a white tshirt and then moving to black is just like a belt! am i right? ;)

in my school at the end of a 2 hr or more grading or should i say torment, they gotta do 30 minutes for beginners level horse stance. im not trying to put down any school but one must earn there next form be it grading or an exam of some type!

grading for the money like some tkd every 3-4 months is not my cup of tea. my guys may grade once a year if they are lucky.
[/quote]

1. Concerning belts and shirts. I may dissagree with you there. In essence, you are either nothing, a student or a master. This is not what I would call "a grading system". As for colour of uniforms, black is traditionnaly colour of master, so no surprises there and white is just....white ! So no I would be opposed to your thinking if you thought that this compares with complex belt colour systems etc.

2. Concerning horse stance, I've just got to bite at this one. Although Australians are said to be tough :-), I find it hard to believe that a new student off the street can do 30 min horse stance, level, as in with a pole on his thighs to show that he is at right altitude. I imagine therefore that this is a student with some experience.

Even with experience, if your students do indeed do 30 min horse stance in this manner, I say good, work I am impressed. I personnaly have never gone over 10 minutes because after this time I sink below 90° angle and thus loose benefits of correct posture.

3.Money: Agreed, has nothing to do with practice, grading etc. It is only used to pay rent equipment etc.

Anyways,...

Yum Cha

11-05-2001, 01:00 AM

Just curious, are you a student of Chau Phu? You are another Sydney boy, correct?

fiercest tiger

11-05-2001, 01:28 AM

What do you think a beginner new commmer is? white everything and then sihing and master? still a grading sylubus just done in a different way!! brother, elder brother , father, grandfather, great great grandfather, be it shirt or belt so students can tell who is who. :rolleyes:

my horse isnt like your horse and ive never seen bak mei do that horse stance before!? :)

my students do 30 minutes of our horse stance for level one beginners, for sifu grade 1 hr. fact not fiction.. :)

thanks for your reply

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

Yum Cha

11-05-2001, 02:03 AM

You have to admit, there is a subtle less formal grading in traditional schools as well.

Red shirts for instructing Si Hing, belt knot on the side for student, in the centre for Sifu.

How worn out your belt is...

Nevertheless, when the brothers do their workouts, they all can see who has what.

Ginger Fist

11-05-2001, 02:17 AM

squat to pee susie-foo says --- no way on one step its pathetic
my father and i cross hand full out,but haven't since ma passed.

shouldn't be a problem 4 ur daddy to whup ur a*ss since u can only fight 1 handed. 2 busy jerking off all the time with the other :D

fighting is fighting though,and the buzz of....some one feels so good,however concience takes over and then you feel like cr@p,at least i do anyway

of course u feel like cr@p, u r cr@p p)ussy hakka boy :eek: probably feels worse since u've always been the loser. maybe u will win 1 sometime & then u will feel like good cr@p, u know, like i do every morning after flushing another hakka turd down the toilet ;)

BIU JI

11-05-2001, 03:24 PM

FT never said people straight off the street do 30 minute horse stance but they usually get chuckrd into a 10 min one though ! That usually sorts people out on the 1st night.That 30 minute stance is for their grading .

You may be sceptical of the duration of our stances but we do a "stack " of stance work. You're as good as your stances, "bad stance- bad kung fu"

People seem to have this dislike for "grading " because they automatically think it's some regimented Karate type school, taking away from the essence of tradional schools . that certainly has not happened at our kwoon, if anything we're probably more traditional than alot that claim they are. Apart from the grading system in place there is no difference.

EAZ

11-05-2001, 03:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fiercest tiger:
What do you think a beginner new commmer is? white everything and then sihing and master? still a grading sylubus just done in a different way!! brother, elder brother , father, grandfather, great great grandfather, be it shirt or belt so students can tell who is who. :rolleyes:

my horse isnt like your horse and ive never seen bak mei do that horse stance before!? :)

my students do 30 minutes of our horse stance for level one beginners, for sifu grade 1 hr. fact not fiction.. :)
[/quote]

Okay FT, you are right, of course there is a hierarchy amongst students. I was just making a point regarding a detailed system with dan etc.

Regarding horse stance. I understand now that your horse stance is not quite as low as the one I was talking about. In that case, if it is "intermediate" height, yes we try to spend the entire course at this level, including during forms, and technical exercices.

Yum Cha: No, I have no knowledge of Chau Phu, although I may have been in contact with one of his students once briefly by email but I am not sure. However, both lineages come from Tang Hué Bac, student of CLC.

I live in Paris, learnt Pei Mei first in Montréal, Canada, and have lived in Vietnam for a total of 6 months studying Pei Mei.