Anti Grappling

[firepalm]

Saw this one on a CLF site forum, thought it was interesting. Countering grapplers using your style? Traditional Chinese martial arts has always noted that fighting can happen within four ranges striking, kicking, seizing/locking & grappling. Yet outwardly, at least, it appears that most traditional Chinese styles really only address the first three ranges. I find it particularily interesting as an instructor here I know is teaching his students for San Da & Sport Jui Jitsu competitions and freely admits that he utilizes skills outside his conventional traditional Chinese style training to address what happens on the ground when two opponents get into a real tussle.

So how many of you out there doing traditional kung fu address grappling, on the ground in particular?
:)

[HuangKaiVun]

"Outwardly" is the key word.

I cannot speak for this instructor who says his "conventional traditional Chinese style training " doesn't address grappling.

But in the styles I did, there was no need to go outside my training for grappling training. It was all built into the styles I worked on, and the teachers I had emphasized that reality.

Even in the Tae Kwon Do and Shotokan karate I learned, we grappled and went to the ground. Our training was considered INCOMPLETE if we didn't work on that stuff. My masters in those methods - as well as the others - were EXTREMELY traditional.

And that's the way I as a sifu teach "traditional kung fu".

[Ging Mo Fighter]

if your oponent is close enough to grab you, then your close enough to hit him

if you get grabbed, your in big trouble no matter what


also, grappling is generally speaking, useless against multiple attackers, people with weapons, and when the surface you are fighting on prohibits it.

i still have great respect for good grapplers though

[iron thread]

"also, grappling is generally speaking, useless against multiple attackers, people with weapons, and when the surface you are fighting on prohibits it."

I'm just throwing out a question here, not meaning to offend, I thought we were addressing how to defend grappling, and not learning or using grappling? Unless, you mean to say, grappling is the only way to defend it?

[HuangKaiVun]

Grappling is NOT useless against multiple attackers, some of whom might also be armed.

In fact, most Chinese kung fu styles DO call for grappling in such situations. If you can get control of one guy, you sometimes can control the entire group or at least use him as a shield.

I've gone to the ground on asphalt against opponents before, and without injury. If I didn't train groundwork, I'd get hurt on the way down. My traditional styles EMPHASIZE groundwork.

And just because you're close enough to an opponent doesn't mean that you can hit him. He might grab you first and stop up your strikes. It's my training to try to immobilize a guy with fast hands.

Traditional kung fu guys that are PROPERLY TRAINED are nasty grapplers and groundfighters.

[yenhoi]

Quote Ging Mo Fighter:

also, grappling is generally speaking, useless against multiple attackers, people with weapons, and when the surface you are fighting on prohibits it.

--

This is straight silly-talk, filled with silly-isms.

Reduced to striking vs grappling, this comment holds true for striking as well. Also, this comment would hold true for all physical combat situations. IF your fighting multiple opponents, striking, vs grappling, offers you no benefits or advantages over your opponents compared to grappling in the same situation.

Of course, reducing it to striking vs grappling is also silly-talk, filled with silly-isms.

You fight how you fight, you do what is necessary (or not) and you are prepared to defeat your opponent or opponents at any range (or not) - you fight vs people with weapons and prevail (or not), and YOU destroy your opponent on whatever type of ground he has (most likely) chosen to attack you on (or not.) You fight, not your style, not your techniques, and not your prefered range. Its not grappling that is useless vs mutliple attackers, weapons, or bad terrain, its your faulty decisions regarding your time and energy.

[mantis108]

Hi FirePalm,

First off, I would like to thank you for your help perviously with the Vancouver KF community info. Really appreciated that. :)

I believe giving explanation of why not the ground range in traditional arts is simlpy feuling the excuses. There really isn't a point to that at all. I think it is more productive to look at the obstacles that are involve in developing a program within traditional arts that addresses the ground range.

Remember we are dealing with "traditional" thinking and perspective.

1) It is about self defense and not ...

This is a major hurdle (of the ego) and chorus line of all TCMA. The truth of the matter is the fear of "looking" bad in front of students. How many times have you heard people repeatedly say that they CAN'T touch their Sifu (usually to point out the greatness of the Sifu's skill). We all know that the more you sparr the more chances you got hit or thrown regardless of skill level. The Sifu will lose face (the biggest no no). Both the student and the Sifu are at fault in this one. So the thinking here is to translate this untouchable greatness into combat situation. This brings about 3 things

A) Obession of perfecting solo form (no contact involve)
B) Over reliance of a step application drill which some schools refer to as "problem solving" (minimal contact)
C) Obession of One Strike kill (no countering/contact allowed)

All these have their merits but it's now used as means to circumvent the actual hard work. Contact is the what any form of grappling required.

2) Non interest of changing times and trends leads to unprepareness.

Lots of the traditional styles believe that they are as old as time (and they could be right). If the thing ain't broke why fix it? Overtime many styles becomes so rapped up in themselves that they simply are not prepare in awareness, technical evolution and training methodology/equipment. How many traditional schools have mats for learning breakfall which is the fundamental skill of countering takedown? Some "Sifus" have never taken a fall. One can expect his students are not going to know how to fall properly and how breakfall and rolling are going to turn a bad situation into an advantage. BTW that's part of countering. These unprepareness and non interest prohibits the transformation from arts to sports. Then we have some "wiseguy" copied what is available out there and shoved the "San Shou" Kick boxing fest as the geniune Kung Fu bit down our throats and ALL Kung Fu people have to sit up and listen up to them. That is not the answer to develop real functional Kung Fu techniques but a sell out to entertaining value. Kung Fu has great many grappling skills (of course the rest of the stuff too). All we need to do is to go back to the basics, go back to the drawing broad and get a suitable format. Don't take the easy way out.

3) Technical baggages.

This basically came from obession of perfecting solo forms. Even Wing Chun has a technique in one of their forms (Biuji?) that is similar to Deng Pu or Deng Tar takedown. But then I have only seen it applied by Wong Sheung Leung in that manner. Most of the people that I know of who are involve in Wing Chun don't seen to be awareness nor care if such an application is within their style. As least on these boards there aren't that many people raving about it. Most people in the TCMA are more interested in striking rather than grappling (mostly because their Sifu said it's bad to grapple which requires contact - opinions vs facts) So in their forms their tend to preform every move as a strike which looks much more appearing than grappling kind of moves (ie Judo/JJ Upa bridging drill that is not unlike the Chinese Tornado Kick).

Even if they can do takedown (attack) and breakfall (defense/countering), the one strike kill mentality still prevails. IF the TCMA schools want to catch up (pun intended), these are the obstacles which they should get over. To each attack there is a counter and to each counter that's another counter. That my friends is Kung Fu.

Mantis108

[diego]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Quote Ging Mo Fighter:

also, grappling is generally speaking, useless against multiple attackers, people with weapons, and when the surface you are fighting on prohibits it.

--

This is straight silly-talk, filled with silly-isms.

Reduced to striking vs grappling, this comment holds true for striking as well. Also, this comment would hold true for all physical combat situations. IF your fighting multiple opponents, striking, vs grappling, offers you no benefits or advantages over your opponents compared to grappling in the same situation.

Of course, reducing it to striking vs grappling is also silly-talk, filled with silly-isms.

You fight how you fight, you do what is necessary (or not) and you are prepared to defeat your opponent or opponents at any range (or not) - you fight vs people with weapons and prevail (or not), and YOU destroy your opponent on whatever type of ground he has (most likely) chosen to attack you on (or not.) You fight, not your style, not your techniques, and not your prefered range. Its not grappling that is useless vs mutliple attackers, weapons, or bad terrain, its your faulty decisions regarding your time and energy.

Well most KungFu Styles tell you to get up as quik as possible!. So, from this context rolling on the ground with one man while his three buddys stare at us, is much more of a trivial solution then using kicks and punches and trying to keep one opponnent in front of the others. Hopefully until you can find a opening and Run Home!.

Wouldnt you say this is so?.

[yenhoi]

Yes diego, I agree, fighting on th ground for longer then it takes for you to get up and get away from danger is silly.

The best way to end a fight is to not be there.

Lets not confuse self-defense, with fighting and ranges of fighting.

[Ging Mo Fighter]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Grappling is NOT useless against multiple attackers, some of whom might also be armed.

In fact, most Chinese kung fu styles DO call for grappling in such situations. If you can get control of one guy, you sometimes can control the entire group or at least use him as a shield.

I've gone to the ground on asphalt against opponents before, and without injury. If I didn't train groundwork, I'd get hurt on the way down. My traditional styles EMPHASIZE groundwork.

And just because you're close enough to an opponent doesn't mean that you can hit him. He might grab you first and stop up your strikes. It's my training to try to immobilize a guy with fast hands.

Traditional kung fu guys that are PROPERLY TRAINED are nasty grapplers and groundfighters.

I'd like to pick you up on a technical thing you said

: "And just because you're close enough to an opponent doesnt mean that you can hit him, He might grab you first"

if your opponent grabs you first, he is controlling the fight, and your in a bad situation. You MUST strike him BEFORE he grabs you, this is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!

I cant beleive anyone here would think about taking multiple opponents to the ground, this is suicide.
Even extremely advanced grapplers like the gracies, take a few minutes to properly choke out one guy. By this time, you could have copped so many punches in the back of the head its not funny.

There is an easier way, striking. - grappling has its usages one vs one, but is USESLESS in multiple confrontations, moreso with people with weapons, I thought that would be extremely self evident to any martial artists who is in touch with REALISM.

[3step]

'if your opponent grabs you first, he is controlling the fight, and your in a bad situation. You MUST strike him BEFORE he grabs you, this is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!'

it has been my experience that if na opponant grabs you, very often that means he is unable to block/defend with the grabbing hand. i have "fed" a grab to opponants many times in order to set up striking. done properly, he will trap himself with his grab.

[diego]

Originally posted by 3step
'if your opponent grabs you first, he is controlling the fight, and your in a bad situation. You MUST strike him BEFORE he grabs you, this is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!'

it has been my experience that if na opponant grabs you, very often that means he is unable to block/defend with the grabbing hand. i have "fed" a grab to opponants many times in order to set up striking. done properly, he will trap himself with his grab.

What if he grabs your sleeve?, then you only have one arm to block with also!. Or are you talking about something differant alltogether?. Your post was rather vague.

[3step]

sorry to be vague, and again, this is based on my own personal experience....

if he grabs a sleeve:
1. it is difficult for him to hit you w/that hand, minimizing the need to block from that side
2. it is still possible to strike him with the hand of the arm he is holding. skillful use of turning power is the key to this kind of situation.
3.very often, you can strike his grabbing hand or arm on a vital point. this is a good set up for further strikes to the centerline.

[Ging Mo Fighter]

why wait until he grabs you?

strike first, strike hard! be fluid and he will not be able to grab you.
you can control the fight through attack.

its like saying "let your opponent take you to the ground, and then you can do this"

not very wise -

[Crimson Phoenix]

About the grabbing issue: it can be used to your advantage. Notice how when you grab a dog by its rear legs, it will try to bite only the hand that grabs the leg...your throat, ches, thigh, whatever might be in range, but the dog will focus on the hand that grabs.
Humans are the same. When you grab someone, for a split second your mind is on the grabbing and nothing else. This can be used to your advantage, if you hit the opponent during the split second his mind is on your limb and nowhere else (uuuhh, may I remind you that you have FEET? Even if both your amrs are grabbed, chances are you can hit with your knees, or kick in a nasty way).
Of course, there's a big limitation: you can fall in the same trap, in the sense that if someone grabs you, you have to let your mind off the part that was grabbed in order to strike somewhere. It's pretty silly, but most of the time when you're grabbed you first and foremost try to do something about the grab (counter-grab, qinna), losing the time-window to strike...

And I do not think it's silly to say that it's more dangerous to grapple when in a case of multiple attackers, for reasons I thought obvious...anything preventing you from the opportunity to run away or exposing you to strikes from pother opponents (while you're busy rolling with one) should IMHO be avoided at all costs...

[Ging Mo Fighter]

dont get me wrong, i think BJJ and Aikido are some of the most awsome and powerful martial arts around today.

I intend on learning them for the explicit purpose of defeating people who cant grapple in a one vs one encounter.

ie your trying to get to your car one night and someone trys to mug you for your wallet, you can see that there is no-one else with him, so grappling might prove to be a more effective way of handling the situation than striking

expecially if hes bigger than you - I love it how royce gracie smashes the crap out of people bigger than him,.

[yenhoi]

In Wing Chun, when someone grabs you, we call that 'the stupid trap'.

Ging Mo Fighter:

I agree that being on the ground in almost any sort of fight is not a good thing. I dont see how you can use that obviousness to say that grappling/groundfighting is useless, specially since, You decide on where and what to spend your time and energy on training, but you do not get to decide the where, who, what, howmany, when it comes to actually being in a fight. You dont get to decides to wait for someone to grab you or decide to wait until your taken to the ground.

Training on the ground, training THAT specific range of fighting cannot hurt your martial skills. Persons who train for the ground will be better at not being on the ground, getting up off the ground, and making sure other people dont get up off the ground. Notice I did not mention BJJ or any other ground-specific "art" - you could be a TKD stylist (most of who only train for kicking and boxing ranges) and train for the ground (as well as trapping/clinch, boxing, and kicking) and be more prepared for ground orientated situations, be better at resisting/avoiding takedowns, be quicker/better at getting up if you are taken down or knocked down, be more skillful in escape in general.

Also I dont see how you will be better defending yourself vs 'multiple attackers' if you had spent more time training your strikes then if you have spent more time training your grappling. When you fight, you fight, not your techniques, tactics or strategys. You dont get to decide on whats going to happen before the fight - If you are deciding on your actions before the time comes, then you are asking for trouble in some form or another when things go weird on you,

[HuangKaiVun]

Ging Mo Fighter, clearly you have never FOUGHT multiple opponents before.

When you have more than one guy hitting and grabbing you, sometimes the best option is to grab one of them and use him as a shield.

Sometimes you'll get knocked down. You might as well take guys down with you.

As far as striking them first before they grab you, that's great and all. I do it too. And you'll find out that most guys are strong enough to take your first hit and then take you down.

Clearly you fear being grappled, Ging Mo Fighter. Given your nonsparring views on what you think "reality" is, I can see exactly why. You OUGHT to be very afraid of grapplers.

However, my sense of "reality" is based on guys actually coming at me.

[Ging Mo Fighter]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Ging Mo Fighter, clearly you have never FOUGHT multiple opponents before.

When you have more than one guy hitting and grabbing you, sometimes the best option is to grab one of them and use him as a shield.

Sometimes you'll get knocked down. You might as well take guys down with you.

As far as striking them first before they grab you, that's great and all. I do it too. And you'll find out that most guys are strong enough to take your first hit and then take you down.

Clearly you fear being grappled, Ging Mo Fighter. Given your nonsparring views on what you think "reality" is, I can see exactly why. You OUGHT to be very afraid of grapplers.

However, my sense of "reality" is based on guys actually coming at me.

without attacking you personally, as you have with me.
im going to look at this analytically.

you said "As far as striking them first before they grab you, that's great and all. I do it too. And you'll find out that most guys are strong enough to take your first hit and then take you down."

this is a problem you have to train for, nothing should be able to withstand a good attack from you. if you attack correctly and in combination, your opponent will not be able to grab you or take you down because they will be getting smashed..

you then said

"Sometimes you'll get knocked down. You might as well take guys down with you. "

I dont train to get "knocked down" , thats bad training in my opinion, we train to win fights, not worry about what happens if things go wrong.

to finish off your reply you said

"Clearly you fear being grappled, Ging Mo Fighter. Given your nonsparring views on what you think "reality" is, I can see exactly why. You OUGHT to be very afraid of grapplers. "

I'm afraid of a few things, but im not afraid of being grappled, infact i feel more comfortable fighting on the ground, however, in reality its not good to be wrestling with one guy, whilst another 2 or 3 kick your head in.

thanks for you input though guys, i appreciate this chat, but try not to get too personal, we're here to help each other, not attack each others views, and please read my other posts before thinking im "anti grappling".

[HuangKaiVun]

I don't remember where I personally attacked you, GingMoFighter.

I just said that I have a different sense of reality than you because I train and spar differently.

Everything you've said so far runs contrary to what my kung fu fighting experience has been, but we're not changing each other's mind anyway.

Based on your teacher and his background, I'm surprised that he feels this way about grappling. One day, I'll talk to him in person about it.

[Lice]

Originally posted by Ging Mo Fighter
this is a problem you have to train for, nothing should be able to withstand a good attack from you. if you attack correctly and in combination, your opponent will not be able to grab you or take you down because they will be getting smashed..


That doesn't sound very realistic. This isn't a movie and things are not always going to go as you trained.

[joedoe]

I dont train to get "knocked down" , thats bad training in my opinion, we train to win fights, not worry about what happens if things go wrong.

I think training wihtout catering for all eventualities is bad training. Sure you should train to win the fight, but you also have to plan for every eventuality.

[Ging Mo Fighter]

a famous kungfu fighter was once asked if it was good to train how to "Take a punch".

he replied "I dont train to take punches, I train to defeat anyone who stands infront of me, behind me, or near me".

I think this has direct application to what we are talking about



I know a guy who only trains how to throw 2 different kinds of punches, hes excellent at it, and hes never lost a fight..

If you can master what your good at, it will work everytime, variety is useful when your oponent knows your attacks and styles (my opinion)

[joedoe]

I agree - you have to train to be good at something. However, you also have to anticipate the application of the Laws of our friend Murphy. :)

[Ging Mo Fighter]

lucky im reading a book on aikido and taking some vale tudo classes aswell then :)

[jmd161]

There are many ways for a grappler to take you down.

Someone said what if he grabs your sleeve.

I'm gonna say the samething my sifu says.
A person that grabs your sleeve or arm is a fool.They leave themself's open to countless attacks.A simple snake fist to the inner elbow,strike to centerline,etc....

If someone grabs you there are many things you can do.
Get rid of the grab,counter grab,strike,etc......

If you train using your techniques you'll have no problem getting rid of a grab.

stopping a grappler from taking you down is a different story.It depends on what you're taught that's going to help you there.

Northern and Southern styles differ on how you should fight a grappler.

jmd161:)

[Yum Cha]

I like this grappling debate, as it appears here and elsewhere. A few things come to mind that seem indesputable.

Grappliers can't fight multiple opponents. Sure throw one guy at another, use him as a shield, but that's not the real thing now, is it? You have to let go, to fight the others.

Grapplers are at a disadvantage if they are smaller than their opponent. Sure, its easy for a 6'4" 300lb bloke to "wrastle down" an average 5'10" 170 lb opponent, and to some extent, it's true in striking too, but nowhere near as much so.

Also, when a "grappler" grabs you, as has been pointed out before, their hands are pre-occupied, and not available to fend. Granted, you may be going down, but then again, maybe not.

So, you use your advantages, if you're big, grappling is more effective, smaller, well, firearms are a good choice <wink>.

Perhaps I mis-understand "grappling" in general, I think of it along the lines of "groundwork" in judo, or conventional "wrestling" as in collegate or grecko roman. Ju-jitsu and Akido don't seem to be the same, even though they attack joints, bones and balance.

Our style has some grabbing, tangeling, arm breaking holds, takedowns, etc which could also be called grappling, but hey involve only "possessing" your opponent for a moment or two before your damage is done.

It seems like there is a middle ground between pure striking, and pure grappling, or? Can some of you grapplers explain the breadth of "grappling" techniques?

[Ging Mo Fighter]

One of the good things about grappling is that not many people are infact good advanced grapplers, meaning if you get in a 1 vs 1 fight with an excellent grappler (over 1 year experience) at jujitsu of judo, chances are hes going to work you something bad.
Simple reason being his techniques will be far superior, and so will his tactics.

always worth learning more about other martial arts.

[sweaty_dog]

I like grappling but I think striking is equally important for self defense. Grapplers need to learn some striking to be truly effective fighters and vice versa. A grappler needs to be able to defend against strikes to get close enough to use his strengths and a striker needs to be able to stay on his feet (or get back to them) so he can keep striking. There is really no true "grappling" and "striking" since wrestlers basically hit each other (snap downs, leg sweeps) and strikers clinch.

It is wrong to say that a grappler can't defeat a larger opponent. Submission techniques can be used even after a stronger opponent has knocked you down, and many takedowns work well against a larger opponent (within reason).

[yenhoi]

Yum Cha:

Grappliers can't fight multiple opponents

First, what is a "grappler" and why cant those people who you have thrown into a random ass broad category end up with multiple opponents?

Semantics aside, I still dont understand what you mean by a grappler and say there is a second category of fighters, that I will name strikers, how do they stand a better chance vs multiple opponents. Perhaps you have specific fighting techniques or strategys in mind that a striker (or whatever) can utilize that a "grappler' by nature cannot?

Grapplers are at a disadvantage if they are smaller than their opponent.

Anyone who is smaller then thier opponent is at a disadvantage. Size does matter. Studying martial arts helps people understand this disadvantage and work with it/around it. "Strikers" are no more prepared or have any sort of advantage over a larger opponent then a "grappler" does.

Also, when a "grappler" grabs you, as has been pointed out before, their hands are pre-occupied, and not available to fend.

This is untrue. When a boxer or thai fighter, or kung-fu guy puts his hands in the air to defend himself (sometimes called a guard) he leaves natural 'openings' - these are not natural vulnerabilitys, they are only places where the hands arent.

If someone is holding your hands, then your hands are unable to fend. He can still let go. This holds true even for the so-called 'stupid-trap' - but you must be faster then the holder.

I am not flaming you, Yum Cha, however, your comments come off very naive. Maybe your sparring sessions have too many rules or your sparring partners to limited or cookie-cutter-like.