Body Size in Mantis

[BeiTangLang]

Curious as to what your opinions are about what you have noticed about the size of mantis practitioners vs their ability to perform the art. I am of a relatively large frame-size & I personaly find that most things work very well for me, but what about you other practitioners?

[Tainan Mantis]

Size is good when it is time to slam.
But I have seen little guys that could slam big guys while the big guys couldn't slam the lttle guys.
But that is more difficult level to attain.

Shorter people often, not always, but often have a higher strength to weight ratio. Like they can lift a higher percentage of their body weight.

So they can jump and evade easier for this reason. That is good in fighting and also in forms.

[Mantis9]

I am also of a relatively large frame-size, compared to my fellow cohort. Maybe this is being hyper-critical, but I feel that my smaller brothers have grasped forms, power-generation, and technique quicker because of their size. Also, as a larger person, I tend carry more tension, because I'm usaully able to out muscle my sparring partner due to size.

I know that it always more shades of gray to form, etc, than just size. My sifu is not quite as large as I, but bigger than most of his students as well. I think his good, solid PM teacher with great ability, techinque, and form. Also, Fan Xu Dong and LGY were reputed big men, so there may be hope.

One thing, though, that is definitely to, at least, my advantage is rooting. Executing any of the PM throws, I believe I have an easier time with than a smaller person because, with good stance/footwork, its hard for many to fight my momentum.

Mantis9:cool:

[HuangKaiVun]

I'm super small - and super quick.

Just because I'm small doesn't mean that I can't take hits, though I can't issue as much brute force as larger opponents do from a leverage and bodymass perspective.

However, Mantis is a style that emphasizes NASTY techniques. The Mantis practitioner ought to be able to hurt a much larger opponent with a barrage of well-placed moves.

When I fight Mantis, I use my Monkey step. I leap in and try to tear out my opponent's vitals. I climb up guys or slip through them. Bodyslamming them is not my main concern.

Mantis needn't rely on brute size and strength. If anything, my small size has been an ADVANTAGE.

[Stacey]

smaller people understand power generation

because they have to. Bigger people can get away with less connection.

As I have gotten stronger, the body needs to adjust to the new weight and so you get sluggish. I wouldn't lose weight though. Mantis is complete and you don't need to adapt for it.

There will be differences in technique preference, but really it depends more on the intelligence and fortitude of the practitioner.

There are no "Naturals" Aptitude will help, but in the long run, its mental quickness and relaxed poise.

[Jotun]

How large is large frame? 6 foot 200 lbs? how small is small size 5 foot 2 110 lbs?

[GiantMantis]

Im a pretty big guy ( 6'3" and 250 pounds), and i find that a fair amount of techniques would work well for me except that I believe I do not have the speed to execute them in a combat situation. What good is lots of power if you cannot hit your opponent? But i am still new to martail arts in general and am hoping that speed will come in time.

[BeiTangLang]

Jotun,...I am 6'3', 300lbs. That would be a large frame. There are larger ones of course, but for tha sake of this thread, lets say;
6' -up & 230&up as large framed. 5'6"-5'11" med. & 0-5"5"small.

[BeiTangLang]

Something else as well: I find it funny that so many equate size with strength. Most smaller people are stronger just because of muscle density & leverage. I would not be the Mantis guy flinging several kicks or doing sweeps at you just because of centrifugal force & the time it would take to perform the action. However, punches & other hand techniques, short quick kicks & throws & I can perform just as fast as most.

[madmanits]

I am glad you brought this up. I belive being of small size can be an advantage to a mantis fighter. The system is full of techiques that a smaller fighter can use to overcome a larger apponent. As a smaller mantis fighter I know in general I am faster then most off the larger students in the class. I also think my smaller size allows me to be a little more agility then the larger mantis fighter.

[hungy]

One thing I have noticed was that it seems like the smaller guys look better doing their forms.... Im kinda on the bigger side when it comes to being an Asian. My Si Hing looks more compact when he does his forms and kicks..... just my 2 cents. that or i suck real bad

[madmanits]

hi hungry

i understand that point of view. My good friend that got me into mantis has often said the same thing. I think a smaller person the stances look a look tighter.

[Stacey]

it was invented by malnourished chinese in 3rd world environments. These weren't cornfed linebackers.

[madmanits]

hi stacey

Responding to prev post. Over the past four mths i have been working hard to reduce my weight. I feel that at a lesser weight i would be more quick and agile. I have lost a total of 17 pounds now it hasn't really helped my technique or speed but I have notice improved stamina. Which allows me to train for longer periods. Strength i believe and hope I have not lost to much as a result of losing weight. Do belive with training kung fu it is as equally important to ingage in some type of cardio and strength program. Or do think practicing the forms are good enough for the fitness component of my training?

[grifter721]

Madmantis
Our cardio is in our forms, if you do a from a couple of times properley you will feel good. You do one of the longer forms once linke 1st set,or Praying Mantis steps out of the cave over and over you will know all about stamina and endurance.
Practice for an hour everyday trust me.
And if you want throw running/jogging in there.

Bigger doesnt necessarily mean better at the forms either, it all depends on how YOU personaly move that size around. There is a huge guy in our class 6'4 230 pounds and he does teh forms wicked. he is agile and can move his weight. Then there have been smaller people that cant move their size around well so it all matters on the person. Size can help but its far from being everything.

[TaoBoy]

I've seen a 5' 6" (approx 60kg) guy throw around a 6' 4" (120kg) guy with ease. They were both SPM practitioners.

[Frogman]

This is a good issue, and I like the point by Stacy that most original KF systems were developed by people that are of a smaller build. I was in the smaller build category for most of my life. Now I am of what could be considered a larger build at 5’10” 220lbs, some fat mostly just wide. Keying off what Grifter721 posted, my weight effected my forms a lot in the first two years. As the forms got longer I had a hard time finishing. Start strong and finish like a soggy noodle. Over time as the forms averaged out to be close to the same length I became better at finishing strong as I built up the strength to carry my weight all the way thru. I still struggle. No, I don’t move as well as most of my smaller brothers and sisters, but there are some moves I do, do better. For me speed and timing vary depending on the move I am doing. My hand speed is twice as fast as my feet. When doing basic drills I will finish punches ahead of most of my Bro & Sis and with kicks I finish behind. I feel this has to do with the fact that my hands are not holding up my weight. As for size and power if you use your body weight properly your size will be directly prepositional to your power. This is different then strength. One of my personal favorites when inside on a smaller opponent is to just body check them. As for advantage, the person that uses the attributes of their size most efficiently will come out ahead. Smaller is faster and more agile, larger is generally more powerful and harder to up root. Of course, size speed and agility do not make up for technique.

RibHit
fm

[hungy]

I have no doubt little guys can kick my ass and throw me around. my sifu is probably only 160 and at the time i was like 200... and he threw me around like a little rag doll...

[BeiTangLang]

Interesting point about the originators body size,....but the Northern Chinese are not all that little of a people. The far.ther north you go(at least in my research on the subject) the larger & taller the people seem to be. I believe the system was created for what I classified as medium build people, not the small frame as is the predominant size in the Southern areas. From my understanding, Luo Guang Yu nor Fan Xu Dong his teacher were small people either. I will agree that if I were to loose 50lbs or so I could probably be a better fighter with much better agility (which I am working on). Another point on the kicking techniques is what they wore on their feet; they did not wear slippers in the snow. They wore something more akin to the hard-soled boots we have now-days which makes me wonder about "tornado kicks" that some are enamoured with....but thats another story.
Best Wishes,
~BTL

[TaiChiStorm]

There is one guy learning BAJI in my Mantis school. He has is rather big seized. He had been a Mantis student for 2-3 years. (He was under the first students of my master. this group was still training VERY hard (asian style). Anyway. Although he was really good in Mantis and also VERY quick, my master asked him to change the style to Baji which is better "related" to his body structure.
He is very happy with Baji now. He is the only one in the group who is being teached Baji by my master.

[draco]

I am considered small, muscular and old. If you have ever climbed to the top of the mountain where it is cold and windy in a harsh enviroment, the only trees you will find are short strong ones. I have practised many techniques on other people and do many forms. When it comes to the fight there is NO technique, NO form. A fight is a fight, an understanding that there is a huge gap between useing a technique and fighting. A person has one good weapon. The smart fighter big or small should know what he is getting into, to walk away or to teach a lesson respectively.

[Jotun]

Do any of you heavier guys have knee problems?

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by draco
I am considered small, muscular and old. If you have ever climbed to the top of the mountain where it is cold and windy in a harsh enviroment, the only trees you will find are short strong ones. I have practised many techniques on other people and do many forms. When it comes to the fight there is NO technique, NO form. A fight is a fight, an understanding that there is a huge gap between useing a technique and fighting. A person has one good weapon. The smart fighter big or small should know what he is getting into, to walk away or to teach a lesson respectively.


..? What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by Jotun
Do any of you heavier guys have knee problems?

Yes,....Why? I have seen all sizes with knee problems.
Sorry to sound rude, but if you have a reason for asking ( maybe explain it), you would get better answers.

[yu shan]

Poor execution of stances and training surfaces can hasten joint pain which will lead to damage. Proper supervision by your teacher is the key. All weight classes suffer joint damaged.

[draco]

Originally posted by BeiTangLang



..? What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?


Curious as to what your opinions are about what you have noticed about the size of mantis practitioners vs their ability to perform the art. I am of a relatively large frame-size & I personaly find that most things work very well for me, but what about you other practitioners?

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by draco
I am considered small, muscular and old. If you have ever climbed to the top of the mountain where it is cold and windy in a harsh enviroment, the only trees you will find are short strong ones. I have practised many techniques on other people and do many forms. When it comes to the fight there is NO technique, NO form. A fight is a fight, an understanding that there is a huge gap between useing a technique and fighting. A person has one good weapon. The smart fighter big or small should know what he is getting into, to walk away or to teach a lesson respectively.

O.K,...You are considered small, muscular and old. I do not see in your bio that you do mantis. You talk about , h@ll,..I don't even get most of what you're talking about pertaining to my original question if you don't train mantis, & philosophy is great too,...except it has nothing to do with bodysize in a mantis practitioner & the way he performs.......So, what was the price of tea in China again?

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by yu shan
Poor execution of stances and training surfaces can hasten joint pain which will lead to damage. Proper supervision by your teacher is the key. All weight classes suffer joint damaged.

I agree with you 100%. Other joint injuries also occur with incorrect technique regardless of body-size. About jing generation & other techniques, have you noticed a difference in the way certain motions/movements/techniques are performed?

[draco]

Originally posted by BeiTangLang


O.K,...You are considered small, muscular and old. I do not see in your bio that you do mantis. You talk about , h@ll,..I don't even get most of what you're talking about pertaining to my original question if you don't train mantis, & philosophy is great too,...except it has nothing to do with bodysize in a mantis practitioner & the way he performs.......So, what was the price of tea in China again?

I do not have a great vocbulary and my writting techniques could use alot of polish. But if I'm to write a bare bone comment (an opinion) it would be this. If I'm to enter a serious FIGHT (being a small person) I leave my techniques behind.

oh yea e-mail me if need more info.

[isol8d]

Originally posted by BeiTangLang


I agree with you 100%. Other joint injuries also occur with incorrect technique regardless of body-size. About jing generation & other techniques, have you noticed a difference in the way certain motions/movements/techniques are performed?

I'm a fellow big man studying mantis. 6'2" & 265lbs. I've been the same weight for about 2 years now, and I can only lose weight through extreme dieting, which in turn, leads to me not being able to physically make it through training. Catch 22. The good things that have come from studying at this weight, has been the development of strength from my stances. Naturally, this has to occur to combat the forces trying to wrench my knees out of whack. My instructors have pointed out to me time and again that I should use my body more like a smaller person, because I generate more force with less effort. It really came to light last week, when I was doing bag work with a new student, and I had to pull my kicks and punches as much as I could, to keep from hurting her. Even a humble side kick with as little force as I could muster was sending her flying. Good discussion.

[Xue Tanglang]

>>> isol8d said:
I'm a fellow big man studying mantis. 6'2" & 265lbs. I've been the same weight for about 2 years now, and I can only lose weight through extreme dieting, which in turn, leads to me not being able to physically make it through training.
-------------------------------------------------------

iso, I'm 6' 1" & 265lbs, but 5 months ago I was 6' 1" & 330lbs. No extreme diets - just very low carbs (Atkins). Us big folk need to take a serious look at what we are eating - which is just as much a part of our training as our forms and exercises. A realistic look at my diet revealed as much as 500g of carbs a day - you might be surprised at how many carbs are in what you normally eat or how little of something is considered a serving - A 12oz can of coke lists 27 grams per 8oz serving, a large coke at McDonalds has around 90g. If interested, I'd suggest talking to your doctor about Atkins (or check out the book to see what it is about).
Change diet to lose weight, train to gain fitness.

As far as exercises. I'm the tallest student in my class. Sometimes Sifu has the students change to punch me lower then the normal punching to the face for that exercise. Otherwise the shorter student would have to come out of his stance to come up to that height.

I think the whole subject comes down to skill and ability more than size. I'm strong enough to pull an advanced student out of his stance, but he could easily beat me because of his skills. We would have to be talking about 2 people of different body sizes with the exact same skill levels to see which is 'better'. I think most of the time it's going to come down to skill over size.

[Mantis9]

Bei

Interesting you mentioned LGY size. The reason being that, as I understand it, his size had a great deal to do with his PM training. Notwithstanding, his size had to do in part to genetics, but he training routine, as extraordinary as it was reported to be, added substantial size.

At least that's how I hear it.

No particular reason I posted this. :confused: Just thought it was interesting.:)

[isol8d]

Originally posted by Xue Tanglang
>>> isol8d said:
I'm a fellow big man studying mantis. 6'2" & 265lbs. I've been the same weight for about 2 years now, and I can only lose weight through extreme dieting, which in turn, leads to me not being able to physically make it through training.
-------------------------------------------------------

iso, I'm 6' 1" & 265lbs, but 5 months ago I was 6' 1" & 330lbs. No extreme diets - just very low carbs (Atkins). Us big folk need to take a serious look at what we are eating - which is just as much a part of our training as our forms and exercises. A realistic look at my diet revealed as much as 500g of carbs a day - you might be surprised at how many carbs are in what you normally eat or how little of something is considered a serving - A 12oz can of coke lists 27 grams per 8oz serving, a large coke at McDonalds has around 90g. If interested, I'd suggest talking to your doctor about Atkins (or check out the book to see what it is about).
Change diet to lose weight, train to gain fitness.


I started the Atkins diet about 4 weeks ago. I made it through about 10 days, and then I couldn't take it anymore, and crashed hard. I've cut sugars out, no sodas, and I'm not eating carbs at night. I just wanted a glass of milk. 11g of carbs. I did find that I wasn't hungry...

This was just released on Low-Carb diets..

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=571&e=1&u=/nm/20021021/hl_nm/diet_carbohydrates_dc

[Xue Tanglang]

-------------- Isol8 said ---------------
I started the Atkins diet about 4 weeks ago. I made it through about 10 days, and then I couldn't take it anymore, and crashed hard. I've cut sugars out, no sodas, and I'm not eating carbs at night. I just wanted a glass of milk. 11g of carbs. I did find that I wasn't hungry...
This was just released on Low-Carb diets..
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...arbohydrates_dc
----------------------------------------

Iso - it was great that you made it 10 days. I found the first 10 days the hardest of the entire program. I was in a fog almost the whole time. But after 10 days, things started to clear up, the weight started to melt off - 17lbs in 2 wks (I know some of it was water, but it felt great!). One of the things that helps keep me on the program is that I never want to go through those 1st 10 days again - plus my wife has thrown away all of my big clothes (48" waist down to a 40" and XXXL Shirt down to an XL). Mark the calendar with the date that you tried to start the diet - you will be surprised how fast 5 months will have passed. I found that for me, carbs/sugars are a true addiction. They served to quell feelings that I couldn't face. Dealing with an addiction is not just a matter of will power. It takes a serious commitment to dealing with those feelings.

Yeah, I read both sides of the argument about the "high protein, low carb diet". You will find naysayers for every kind of diet. You'll have to take some personal responsibility and make an educated decision based on your current state of health. See your doctor every 6 months and get a checkup if you are concerned. That article says that they don't know the long term effects of the HPLC diet, but we absolutely know the effects of a diet high in sugars and refined carbs. My blood pressure went from 140/85 to 123/73 and my resting pulse rate went from 96 to 79. My hypoglycemia is gone, and I was heading on a collison course with diabetes. I do know (for me) that the 'possible long-term effects' of Atkins is a much safer bet than the definate long term effects of obesity. It's your body and your decision and no matter what you choose to do, it starts with taking responsibility for your health and being conscious of what you eat - even if you choose to do nothing.
I wish you the best of luck!